Monk Heroes Interrupting

GoodApollo1234

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2006

Ohio

23 Aug 2008 at 14:41 - 1

Hi, I wasn't sure where to put this thread, so I put it here. Sorry if I was wrong

Anyway.... Last night, my brother (who is primarily a PvP-er) and I were fighting from ToA to Sanctum Cay in HM for Sh*ts and giggles, and I noticed that whenever we aggro'd a mob, his monk heroes would run right in and start wanding the enemies. I told him he should probably set them to "avoid," but he said he had them set like that so they'd interrupt enemy spells with [Power Drain] as a means of energy management.

Personally, I thought this was kind of a dumb idea. It was by no means a deal breaker in that particular situation, but I'm still skeptical as to how it would work in more advanced areas.

I've always kept my healers (whether they be monks, or N/Rt's) on "avoid," and I've never had much trouble with energy management.

So, my question is: Am I the crazy one? Would you recommend doing this?

Pleikki

WTB q8 15^50 Weapons!

Join Date: Nov 2006

???oo ???ugs ???lan [?????????]

23 Aug 2008 at 14:52 - 2

hmm i keep em on Guard and works fine.

-Lotus-

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

23 Aug 2008 at 15:50 - 3

set them to avoid if they have no offensive skills.
set them do defense if the have offensive energy management. (like SOLS or Pdrain)

TheodenKing

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2008

DoA

Dark Order of Retarded Knights (doRk)

N/Me

23 Aug 2008 at 16:01 - 4

What he's doing is unnecessary in pve, but yes, it works. Heroes and henchmen are very good at employing interupts. But there are better energy management choices for a monk that don't involve running in with a bullseye on his forehead.

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

23 Aug 2008 at 16:08 - 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodApollo1234

So, my question is: Am I the crazy one? Would you recommend doing this? Yes.

- There is nothing wrong with monk hero being set to "defend mode". It won't cause him to be any worse healer. And wanding damage is l33t because it is free. Even if your monk heroes don't use skills on enemy, it is recomended.

- Inspiration interupts are good too. If you interrupt damage skill of foe it is directly equal to healing all damage is would cause. And you are gaining energy by doing so and noones healths drops so it is safer if there are multiple damage sources. If defensive skill is interupted it means that foes is going to die faster which means that it has less time to cause damage monk would have to deal with. Problem is that there are usually better skills to put to those slots as someone else in party can usually be much better at interrupting.

de klootviool

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2008

23 Aug 2008 at 16:11 - 6

wanding damage leet since when lol

GoodApollo1234

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2006

Ohio

23 Aug 2008 at 16:57 - 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

wanding damage is l33t because it is free. Um... I don't see how wanding damage could possibly l33t, but whatever you say. I guess a whopping 15-or-so damage couldn't hurt, but it still runs the risk of over-aggro, which we all know Anet's AI loves to do.

I'm aware that heroes in general are very good at interrupting, but I always thought that job should be given to a profession that's actually MEANT to interrupt, like a mesmer or a ranger. And frankly, doing it for energy management just seems moronic to me since, like Theodenking said, there are much better choices.

Regardless, I appreciate all the feedback. I still think I prefer playing with passive monks, but I'll try to be a bit more open-minded next time.

Marverick

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

23 Aug 2008 at 16:57 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Yes.

- There is nothing wrong with monk hero being set to "defend mode". It won't cause him to be any worse healer. And wanding damage is l33t because it is free. Even if your monk heroes don't use skills on enemy, it is recomended.

- Inspiration interupts are good too. If you interrupt damage skill of foe it is directly equal to healing all damage is would cause. And you are gaining energy by doing so and noones healths drops so it is safer if there are multiple damage sources. If defensive skill is interupted it means that foes is going to die faster which means that it has less time to cause damage monk would have to deal with. Problem is that there are usually better skills to put to those slots as someone else in party can usually be much better at interrupting. Nope.

Heroes will wait until they finish their current attack before they use any skills.

zelgadissan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2008

The Warrior Priests [WP]

Me/Rt

23 Aug 2008 at 17:08 - 9

The Inspiration line can make good e-management for a monk - see [Power Drain], [Waste Not Want Not], etc. - but not near as good as the old standby [Glyph of Lesser Energy], which can be used easily on both guard and avoid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

There is nothing wrong with monk hero being set to "defend mode". It won't cause him to be any worse healer. And wanding damage is l33t because it is free. Even if your monk heroes don't use skills on enemy, it is recomended. I highly disagree, for the reason Marverick just stated. A hero isn't smart enough to say "oh shi- better cancel the attack and use WoH". He'll attack, then heal/prot, at which point it's interrupted because the guy just died.

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

23 Aug 2008 at 17:24 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

I highly disagree, for the reason Marverick just stated. A hero isn't smart enough to say "oh shi- better cancel the attack and use WoH". He'll attack, then heal/prot, at which point it's interrupted because the guy just died. Since hero ai lives on server time it is pretty unnoticeable and not really that different from human monk reaction times. In fact, its helps with overhealing (hero ai has tendency to sync cast. This throws them off sync.). When stuff goes apeshit they do not wand anymore anyway.

I would submit to you thou that if your party members can die within 2 seconds without forewarning, something else than monk setup is wrong.

Meh, guess this is thing better left for humans to do properly.

Ratson Itamar

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

"Flame Shield On!"

23 Aug 2008 at 18:44 - 11

If you're using the standard Sabway's N/Rt which has life-stealing skill/s then set him/her to guard quickly. The hero won't use those spells when set on Avoid, thus wasting the hero's elite skill and possibly another skill on her/his bar. But if you are using any other healer build which doesn't have any life-stealing or other utility skills that target the enemy, then you may actually want to set them on Avoid and not on Guard. That's, again, only if you're in HM or in any another high-end area, otherwise set them to guard so they'll help your damage output (15*2 each ~2 seconds is very much welcomed).

This damage may also help you further, if your monks has a fire damage wand/staff then you can activate Mark of Rodgort the entire battle, constant burning is a nice extra to have. Or if you're in an area of Undeads or Abbadon's Servants and your monks use an Holy type wand/staff you can do some nice damage 30*2 each~2 seconds (or 30 damage per ~1 second). Take advantage of your surroundings and your team. Don't neglect a single thing that may seems unimportant at first glance.

- Why would you choose not to use free damage that can add up at the right hands?

GoodApollo1234

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2006

Ohio

23 Aug 2008 at 20:03 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

If you're using the standard Sabway's N/Rt which has life-stealing skill/s then set him/her to guard quickly. The hero won't use those spells when set on Avoid, thus wasting the hero's elite skill and possibly another skill on her/his bar.

......

- Why would you choose not to use free damage that can add up at the right hands? A) You're partly right. I've been keeping an eye on my N/Rt healer, and he doesn't tend to use Signet of Lost Souls when set on avoid. HOWEVER, he does use his elite, Weapon of Remedy, just fine as far as I know. The problem is actually with skills that directly target foes. It has nothing to do with life-stealing.

B) It's already been explained why wand-damage is more trouble than it's worth. Heroes aren't smart enough to cancel attacks when necessary.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

23 Aug 2008 at 20:43 - 13

If you want to use interrupts then you have to set the monk hero to guard. If you set him on guard, he will wand or normal attack the enemies. This means you have to limit yourself to ranged weapons for him. Otherwise if he is wielding a caster sword like Rajazan's Fervor he would run to the front lines to melee like Koss.

The other problem is, if he is set to guard, he doesn't kite from melee attackers as fast as when he is set to passive, especially if he is happily wanding his enemies with full health until that single hit from HM which would cost him about 150hp.

If he is on passive, all he does is concentrate on his allies and kite from melee attackers instead of wasting his time normal attacking.

Marverick

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

23 Aug 2008 at 21:16 - 14

You can just equip him with an offhand and no weapon while he is set on guard. That'll solve the wanding problem.

Ratson Itamar

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

"Flame Shield On!"

23 Aug 2008 at 21:25 - 15

Oh, you have the "old" elite, your hero might only use it to remove a condition. If I remember right my hero doesn't use Xinrae's Weapon and Vengeful Weapon (I can't check it so see if that's true right now).

GoodApollo1234

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2006

Ohio

23 Aug 2008 at 22:08 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

The other problem is, if he is set to guard, he doesn't kite from melee attackers as fast as when he is set to passive, especially if he is happily wanding his enemies with full health until that single hit from HM which would cost him about 150hp. Very good point. Didn't think of that.

ALF71BE

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2008

In your fridge, stealing your pickles. for mah subway

23 Aug 2008 at 23:41 - 17

In addition to what has being said, having Inspiration e-management interrupts means that your heroes monks bars will be either limited to Protting or Healing, and these kind of bars aren't that good.

And in another note, wether you have those skills in their bars or not, they'll run out of energy sooner or later, because heroes suck at energy management, so playing gimmicks is best when using heroes to do the healing/protting, gimmicks that of course won't run out of energy.

-Lotus-

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

24 Aug 2008 at 05:26 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

In addition to what has being said, having Inspiration e-management interrupts means that your heroes monks bars will be either limited to Protting or Healing, and these kind of bars aren't that good. what are you talking about. you can do a 4 attribute spread with a monk. you dont need a decent rank in divine favor or inspiration, and you dont need to max our heal or prot.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

24 Aug 2008 at 05:31 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

You can just equip him with an offhand and no weapon while he is set on guard. That'll solve the wanding problem. That is still not optimal because you lose the bonuses from a weapon.

The point is, if you can, dont give interrupts or attack skills to your healer. If you really can't then too bad, and live with it.

JDRyder

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2007

Great temple of Balthazar

Mo/Me

24 Aug 2008 at 07:13 - 20

its a good idea imo, i use it a lot myself on both my bar and hero's "heros own with it"

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

In addition to what has being said, having Inspiration e-management interrupts means that your heroes monks bars will be either limited to Protting or Healing, and these kind of bars aren't that good. no

if you run the same att set up as a TA or RA monk it comes out to be
11+1+1 healing
9+1 Prot
8+1 DF
8 insp

taking 1 point out of DF and healing is not going to hurt u at all

if your bro pvps a lot hes going to know what hes doing, even if hes in a low ranking guild. Pvpers are better at the game generally, almost every pvper ive met knows a lot more about all the skills and how they are used than a average pve'er.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

24 Aug 2008 at 07:17 - 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

it
if your bro pvps a lot hes going to know what hes doing, even if hes in a low ranking guild. Pvpers are better at the game generally, almost every pvper ive met knows a lot more about all the skills and how they are used than a average pve'er. Why does a discussion about heroes AI, have to turn into a PvPers vs PvEers argument?

Most PvEers pvp to some extend and vice versa for PvPers. I see experienced and inexperienced people on either side.

-Lotus-

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

24 Aug 2008 at 07:55 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Why does a discussion about heroes AI, have to turn into a PvPers vs PvEers argument? theres not really an argument... anyone who plays semi-serious PvP is better at the game that the vast majority of PvE players. PvEers use Tanks still... why would there be an argument?

JDRyder

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2007

Great temple of Balthazar

Mo/Me

24 Aug 2008 at 07:56 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Most PvEers pvp to some extend and vice versa for PvPers. I see experienced and inexperienced people on either side. and? how does that make pvers better than pvpers?

People that mainly play pvp ARE better than people that mainly pve cause pvpers have to know more about the game to be good and pvp is way harder to do than pve so most of the better players are going to be doing that, I don't see how thats a hard thing to agree with

the point of me saying that in the 1st place was to tell him "your bro PvPs he most likely knows what hes doing don't worry when you seem him use skills like that its for a reason, hes just using the skills of guild wars to their fullest"

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

24 Aug 2008 at 08:18 - 24

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

and? how does that make pvers better than pvpers?

People that mainly play pvp ARE better than people that mainly pve cause pvpers have to know more about the game to be good and pvp is way harder to do than pve so most of the better players are going to be doing that, I don't see how thats a hard thing to agree with

the point of me saying that in the 1st place was to tell him "your bro PvPs he most likely knows what hes doing don't worry when you seem him use skills like that its for a reason, hes just using the skills of guild wars to their fullest" I have seen some really crappy builds in RA, HA, and even GvG. Please dont tell me they are still better than most PvEers here.

Dont even try to convince me that firestorm warrior and his team that we destroyed in GvG is better than half the PvEers here. Just because someone clicks a single button to enter RA doesn't imply he automatically becomes an elite. There are experienced and inexperienced players on either side.

JDRyder

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2007

Great temple of Balthazar

Mo/Me

24 Aug 2008 at 08:25 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Most PvEers pvp to some extend and vice versa for PvPers. I see experienced and inexperienced people on either side. yea cuz pvers do RA and some times HA to try it or to get a deer

just cause they are pvping does not make them pvpers,

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

24 Aug 2008 at 08:32 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

cuz RA is nothing but crappy builds same for HA, or they were mainly pvers trying to pvp, cant say i have not seen a lot of pvers try to HA and im like wtf why. My point being that some people claim that they are PvPers, and even PvP quite regularly, even has a stag coming out of their chest, but they are just horrible.

So unless you belong to a top guild or have something to show for, just claiming I am a PvPer, that means I am better, is ridiculous. To enter PvP consistently is EASY, to win consistently in PvP is not.

JDRyder

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2007

Great temple of Balthazar

Mo/Me

24 Aug 2008 at 08:39 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Pvpers are better at the game generally, almost every pvper ive met knows a lot more about all the skills and how they are used than a average pve'er.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

People that mainly play pvp ARE better than people that mainly pve cause pvpers have to know more about the game to be good and pvp is way harder to do than pve so most of the better players are going to be doing that, l2read imo... its the same shit i said to start with your just trying to troll stfu

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

24 Aug 2008 at 08:50 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

if your bro pvps a lot hes going to know what hes doing, even if hes in a low ranking guild. Pvpers are better at the game generally, almost every pvper ive met knows a lot more about all the skills and how they are used than a average pve'er.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

just cause they are pvping does not make them pvpers, stop contradicting yourself then.

JDRyder

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2007

Great temple of Balthazar

Mo/Me

24 Aug 2008 at 09:00 - 29

if hes using power drain on a heros monk I think it safe to say hes passed the average pver player tiers

-Lotus-

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

24 Aug 2008 at 15:32 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

if hes using power drain on a heros monk I think it safe to say hes passed the average pver player tiers IF his monks have energy management and an elite he passed the average PvE player miles ago.

N1ghtstalker

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2007

24 Aug 2008 at 16:54 - 31

consider using [leech signet] as well
even tho i keep GoLe on my monks

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

24 Aug 2008 at 17:04 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

if hes using power drain on a heros monk I think it safe to say hes passed the average pver player tiers I used to have power drain on my monk heroes a long time ago when NF was first released. After getting heroes, people were amazed at how efficient heroes are for interrupting and put interrupts in all kinds of heroes, even on MMs (i.e. the old Zingeri's hero build). Having interrupts on monk heroes is old school.

I took it out later when I realized monk heroes were sometimes busy attacking while getting pounded by melee. Afterall, I can always put the interrupts on attacking heroes rather than healers if I need them. There are other means of energy management for monks, besides power drain.

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

24 Aug 2008 at 17:18 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I used to have power drain on my monk heroes a long time ago when NF was first released. After getting heroes, people were amazed at how efficient heroes are for interrupting and put interrupts in all kinds of heroes, even on MMs (i.e. the old Zingeri's hero build). Having interrupts on monk heroes is old school. Also SF eles.

It was part of genral PvE singlemindedness: people tended to play very focused builds. And those builds usually really needed about only one half of skillbar (they are only so much red bars go up skills you can put on hero monk.)

Interupts were free with 12/12/3 point spread and didn't cost hero much time either. No brainer.

It just takes aditional leap of faith to reduce your attributes to 11/10 or 12/9 and find two skills from other attributes to fill those empty places on skillbar: Hybrid monk or Sabway necro.

---

I am actually surprised on your testimonies: Do you heroes really suck with defend mode? I usually play HM with hench monks, which are in defend mode and besides crappy skills they have i never noticed behaviours you describe.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

24 Aug 2008 at 17:26 - 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

I am actually surprised on your testimonies: Do you heroes really suck with defend mode? I usually play HM with hench monks, which are in defend mode and besides crappy skills they have i never noticed behaviours you describe. I think Mhenlo has the same "guard" mode AI, he wands. Seeing his ability to kite would be a reflection of how guard mode monk heroes kite. If he is in the middle of wanding with full life, he does tank that hit.

It is not game breaking but annoying when he could have just kite earlier if he "sees" the warriors coming for him.

Perfected Shadow

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

Zul'Aman

Umes Uranger U[bot]

25 Aug 2008 at 06:18 - 35

Pdrain, etc. Don't see why not. Downside is wanding but the wand hit might take a RoF

Nainoa

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2008

USA

ARMY

25 Aug 2008 at 14:20 - 36

Let's see these much better alternatives for hero monk energy management people have mentioned. Glyph is not the answer since heroes use it with random skills including 5 energy ones which could save them as little as 10 energy in a 60 second period.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

25 Aug 2008 at 15:37 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Interupts were free with 12/12/3 point spread and didn't cost hero much time either. No brainer. That is the problem. If you only have 3 to inspiration, PDrain returns 7 energy so you only have a net of 2e return and that is provided it manages to interrupt. With a 20s recharge, PDrain is more of an interrupt with some energy bonus, rather than a reliable energy management skill.

Even GoLE can return a net 15e, with 0 attribute investment, less conditional since he doesn't need to find a spell to interrupt, and you can set your monk hero to avoid combat so he kites better.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

25 Aug 2008 at 17:11 - 38

Unless they fixed the AI - I don't see why anyone would be using mesmer interrupts as e-management.
The AI considers PD as an interrupt rather then a way to manage energy.
That's why GoLE is superior.
It's simple.
Heroes understand it.

Axel Zinfandel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Northeastern Ohio

LaZy

P/W

25 Aug 2008 at 19:28 - 39

Honestly, I'd rather run [skill]Channeling[/skill] as a form of energy management in PvE on a monk with the inspiration line. I run mostly casters, Paragons, and W/P myself, so there always seems to be energy rolling in.

Turbobusa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

By the Luxon Scavenger

The Mentalists [THPK]

25 Aug 2008 at 20:55 - 40

I'd rather have my backline... in the backline if you don't mind.
Channeling promotes awefull positionning.
See monks spamming RoFs on an altar in 3 searing heats. (PvP is gud, always)

I have no problems with Pdrain on a monk set on guard. It does work and I would consider the wanding "problem" as an annoyance at most. It's not like it is going to put you in trouble 50% of the time. More like THAT ONE TIME, you party wiped because your healer was busy watching flowers.