Please read the entirety of this post before jumping to any conclusions over the title.
I've been a member of this forum since July 2006, as is seen in my mini profile off to the left. Back then this forum seemed very different in comparison to how it is today. There was a lot more optimism for the future of the game, something that was not as obvious when Nightfall was released, and was non-existent when Eye of the North was released. I'm not suggesting that no one was excited for these releases, simply that the number of these excited people has dropped severely in the past couple years.
The title of my thread can be misleading, but I'm sure that at the base level many older and newer members alike will agree with me when I say that many posts as of late are devoid of any useful content pertaining to the thread whatsoever. I've noticed an increase in the number of gratuitous /(un)signed posts in Sardelac that contribute nothing to the thread, and seem to be present solely for increasing one's post count, making personal attacks at other posters, or trolling with a lolcat. Posts attempting to solve problems in the Questions and Answers forum have been met with useless posts with no evidence of research and sources, as well as more of the same post count bumps. The list goes on.
Take a look at the thread here (thread referenced while HawkofStorms has the final post, #11) for a moment and note the both useful and pertinent information posted by several users about testing methods, and further explaining how both the energy pools and regenerations work. Then note the posts, excluding the obvious troll, that contain a user's opinion on some related topic rather than a detailed analysis.
Here is another thread reference. This is an interesting discussion topic, very relevant to a large number of Guru members who had such experiences when first playing Guild Wars. Unlike in the previous example for the Q&A forum, the posts don't need research or sources, but need depth. This is a discussion topic, not intended to be a bad joke dumping ground as a couple posts on the first page would indicate. Trolls are annoying, but posters simply trying to wittily flame the thread opener are ridiculous.
My last reference is here. The thread creator puts out three separate questions about choosing a new class, and the responses vary. Most of the posts are alright, scratching the surface of at least one of the question. Others give quick and very general responses which are too vague to clearly answer any of the questions at all, making the post useless. My post answers two of the three questions and cites examples of different skill combinations to support my suggestions. My post is a little overkill perhaps, but I think somewhere between the other good posts and my own is a good standard for posts of this type.
My main point is that the standard of forum posts has plummeted, and if Guru is going to maintain its status as a reputable community, things need to change. I've always liked Guru, and never much went to any of the other popular forums such as GWOnline unless something over there was referenced in a post here on Guru. I've recently taken a look around and noticed a few points of interest:Half the community doesn't flame Regina when she makes an announcement or answers questions
Most posts are articulate and relevent to the topic
People are nicer, I see fewer flames in general and very few pointless trolls
Let's work to make Guru a better community for all of us.
Decline in Quality of Guru Posts and Attitudes
Ariena Najea
Snow Bunny
Guild Wars was a great game in 2006. It's really not in 2008.
Posters will respond accordingly.
Posters will respond accordingly.
glacialphoenix
People get jaded with experience, and more inclined to yell at everything and everyone.
That's what's happening in the game, so of course it translates here.
Can you really expect anything else? =\
That's what's happening in the game, so of course it translates here.
Can you really expect anything else? =\
Martin Alvito
+1
Had to be said.
More seriously - the lack of substantive posts reflects the generally unimaginative player community. This lack of imagination stems from the fact that inventiveness and creativity are no longer consistently rewarded in the PvE or PvP communities. The PvP community as a rule prizes skill at clicking things and pressing keys over developing new ideas, Observer mode limits the benefits to be reaped from innovation, and stale metas have encouraged learning to play specific bars exceptionally well rather than becoming a well-rounded player.
Similarly, the PvE community lacks new content, meaning that there is a comparative dearth of places to innovate in order to gain advantage and in-game wealth.
Upshot: the community is self-selecting, and the creative players by and large selected out in favor of learning new games with new challenges.
Had to be said.
More seriously - the lack of substantive posts reflects the generally unimaginative player community. This lack of imagination stems from the fact that inventiveness and creativity are no longer consistently rewarded in the PvE or PvP communities. The PvP community as a rule prizes skill at clicking things and pressing keys over developing new ideas, Observer mode limits the benefits to be reaped from innovation, and stale metas have encouraged learning to play specific bars exceptionally well rather than becoming a well-rounded player.
Similarly, the PvE community lacks new content, meaning that there is a comparative dearth of places to innovate in order to gain advantage and in-game wealth.
Upshot: the community is self-selecting, and the creative players by and large selected out in favor of learning new games with new challenges.
Lord Zion
Ive been here since 2005 and yeah i totally agree with the Ariena.
Yesterday i posted a thread suggesting something to improve the game (which btw Ariena had posted some nice words there) and ppl went there just to say i wanna get attention... what? yes thats unbelievable.
I used a situation that happened to me involving little amount of gold and a scammer, and even after i repeat myself over 3 times that i was not suggesting that because i lost money, but to improve the game, i got like 3-5 ppl coming there and saying: "suck it up, it was your fault you lost the gold".
People either dont think anymore before post or dont know how to read and understand a text.
Yesterday i posted a thread suggesting something to improve the game (which btw Ariena had posted some nice words there) and ppl went there just to say i wanna get attention... what? yes thats unbelievable.
I used a situation that happened to me involving little amount of gold and a scammer, and even after i repeat myself over 3 times that i was not suggesting that because i lost money, but to improve the game, i got like 3-5 ppl coming there and saying: "suck it up, it was your fault you lost the gold".
People either dont think anymore before post or dont know how to read and understand a text.
Jumping Is Uselss
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
Guild Wars was a great game in 2006. It's really not in 2008.
Posters will respond accordingly.
QFT
nothing in GW is exciting anymore. Most of the topics worth mentioning have already been said. And most topics get repeated every week, which some people find annoying.
Posters will respond accordingly.
QFT
nothing in GW is exciting anymore. Most of the topics worth mentioning have already been said. And most topics get repeated every week, which some people find annoying.
hurric
i think it's partly because of average age of some posters.
DarkNecrid
Most people get tired of seeing the same topics and answering the same questions. Guru has always ALWAYS ALWAYS been harsher than other fansites and more in your face and that will probably never change because that is what Guru is. When big stuff happens it simmers down (the skill update topic was pretty good the one that changed elites), and will simmer down this month too I'm sure. Not everyone thoroughly enjoys answering the same questions and discussing the same stuff 5000000000x times.
Alastair
It is a combination of you changing, the other people changing, and new players joining the mix. I have been through a few different video game forums where they evolved (or devolved, hehe) to be something completely different from where they were on day 1. The vets get bitter and the newbs are more annoying by the post. At some point you have to realize that nothing in life is set in stone and that you need to accept the change. The good 'ol days wouldn't be good unless they were in the past. Make the best of what you have right now and don't stress over the state of things. Just be happy that things aren't worse 
-Alastair
-Alastair
Lord Zion
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkNecrid
Most people get tired of seeing the same topics and answering the same questions. Guru has always ALWAYS ALWAYS been harsher than other fansites and more in your face and that will probably never change because that is what Guru is. When big stuff happens it simmers down (the skill update topic was pretty good the one that changed elites), and will simmer down this month too I'm sure. Not everyone thoroughly enjoys answering the same questions and discussing the same stuff 5000000000x times.
Im sorry but if people are tired of answering the same questions and discussing the same stuff 5000000000x times, they could:
1. Stop going to that certain thread(s); or
2. Post a link to the other thread where you have answered the questions or discussed the subject.
For me thats not an excuse to act like a jerk.
(DarkNecrid i quoted you, but im not referring to you - the acting like a jerk thing
)
1. Stop going to that certain thread(s); or
2. Post a link to the other thread where you have answered the questions or discussed the subject.
For me thats not an excuse to act like a jerk.
(DarkNecrid i quoted you, but im not referring to you - the acting like a jerk thing
)
Ariena Najea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Zion
Im sorry but if people are tired of answering the same questions and discussing the same stuff 5000000000x times, they could:
1. Stop going to that certain thread(s); or
2. Post a link to the other thread where you have answered the questions or discussed the subject.
For me thats not an excuse to act like a jerk.
(DarkNecrid i quoted you, but im not referring to you - the acting like a jerk thing )
I see people mentioning those two solutions frequently, and often they're flamed for it. Those two are among the best possible paths taking when dealing with such threads.
My response to those who say Guild Wars is no longer exciting or enjoyable, please change games or take a break. To those who feel this way, hang around Guru, and grief threads... please just move on and find another way to occupy your time.
I'm pleased to see this thread has not yet turned into a flame war, I hope it continues to be a good discussion
1. Stop going to that certain thread(s); or
2. Post a link to the other thread where you have answered the questions or discussed the subject.
For me thats not an excuse to act like a jerk.
(DarkNecrid i quoted you, but im not referring to you - the acting like a jerk thing
)
I see people mentioning those two solutions frequently, and often they're flamed for it. Those two are among the best possible paths taking when dealing with such threads.My response to those who say Guild Wars is no longer exciting or enjoyable, please change games or take a break. To those who feel this way, hang around Guru, and grief threads... please just move on and find another way to occupy your time.
I'm pleased to see this thread has not yet turned into a flame war, I hope it continues to be a good discussion
Phineas
I agree with the OP. I would like to see the end of the ridiculous "+1" brigade, and also those posters who believe that their post "wins" or "/closes" the thread after a throw away comment that is usually an insult to the OP in question. Such people add nothing to the content here yet more of them appear to be 'contributing'.
Tougher moderating would be good, but then people would cry out, but if it meant that those people had to go away and construct a considered reply to a thread then I'd be all for it.
Tougher moderating would be good, but then people would cry out, but if it meant that those people had to go away and construct a considered reply to a thread then I'd be all for it.
Jae Onasi
I'll take a shot at this. I have two perspectives: a. A relatively new player, and certainly fairly new to this forum and b. super-moderator over at Lucasforums.com in the KotOR section, where we're experiencing a similar kind of ennui with those games among older players because of how long ago they were released.
From the point of view of a player being relatively new to the game and this forum, it does have a higher number of off-topic/off-color posts than I'm accustomed to on LF, but that could just be part of the culture. I can roll with whatever the community has established as their particular spam to legit post ratio as long as the spam isn't horribly high. I have more important things to do than read idiotic or +1 posts, and when I'm at work on the blackberry, spam wastes a lot of time and bandwidth because of the slow loading times on my phone. I'm fine with seeing legitimate questions, however, even if they appear to be repeats of something that got asked 2 years ago.
Older players also need to be a little patient with us newer players. What's old hat to you is something completely new to me. I'm still discovering something new virtually every time I play. Just be patient with someone who answers newbie questions, and if you don't want to do that, then just don't post. Skip the entire thread if need be. It'll save both you and the OP headaches. As my grandma used to say, 'If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it.'
However, if the spamming/off-topic problem has increased, it means that the staff may have to step in more to get it calmed back down. I don't know if it has or not because I don't have any way to compare to what was going on 2 years ago. What I have learned (sometimes the hard way) that it's much easier to put out one small spark than it is to deal with a thread that's exploded into an all-out flame or spam war. It's a lot harder to deal with a culture of spamming if the spamming has gotten way out of hand. It also helps considerably if members just report the posts by clicking on the little red triangle below your avatar instead of replying to rude or off-topic posts, as well. You'll save the staff time by not making them have to delete your post pointing out how someone else broke the rules as well as the offending post.
From the point of view as an s-mod on a forum of an older game, there is going to be a certain level of boredom crop up in a 3 year old game. People who were active when the game first came out may move on to other, newer games--that's OK. We expect some turnover and people deciding to play other games. I don't still play Asteroids on Atari, for instance. We are still seeing an influx of players who are picking up the KotOR games for the first time, however. They are generally young, and they generally ask the same things I did about the game 3 years ago. I can either roll my eyes about it and focus on some of the negative things, or I can share their enthusiasm and appreciation for games I enjoy so much and help them out. I choose the latter, and I moderate with that philosophy in mind, i.e. the posts that are useless or flamey get deleted immediately. The staff will have to make decisions on how they want to handle that here, however. This is a different game, different forum, different culture than the one I'm working at and I'm not trying to tell them what to do. I will suggest having an FAQ sticky in the different forums, much like the Index of Ideas sticky in Sardelac. That may help with some of the newbie questions, too.
From the point of view of a player being relatively new to the game and this forum, it does have a higher number of off-topic/off-color posts than I'm accustomed to on LF, but that could just be part of the culture. I can roll with whatever the community has established as their particular spam to legit post ratio as long as the spam isn't horribly high. I have more important things to do than read idiotic or +1 posts, and when I'm at work on the blackberry, spam wastes a lot of time and bandwidth because of the slow loading times on my phone. I'm fine with seeing legitimate questions, however, even if they appear to be repeats of something that got asked 2 years ago.
Older players also need to be a little patient with us newer players. What's old hat to you is something completely new to me. I'm still discovering something new virtually every time I play. Just be patient with someone who answers newbie questions, and if you don't want to do that, then just don't post. Skip the entire thread if need be. It'll save both you and the OP headaches. As my grandma used to say, 'If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it.'
However, if the spamming/off-topic problem has increased, it means that the staff may have to step in more to get it calmed back down. I don't know if it has or not because I don't have any way to compare to what was going on 2 years ago. What I have learned (sometimes the hard way) that it's much easier to put out one small spark than it is to deal with a thread that's exploded into an all-out flame or spam war. It's a lot harder to deal with a culture of spamming if the spamming has gotten way out of hand. It also helps considerably if members just report the posts by clicking on the little red triangle below your avatar instead of replying to rude or off-topic posts, as well. You'll save the staff time by not making them have to delete your post pointing out how someone else broke the rules as well as the offending post.
From the point of view as an s-mod on a forum of an older game, there is going to be a certain level of boredom crop up in a 3 year old game. People who were active when the game first came out may move on to other, newer games--that's OK. We expect some turnover and people deciding to play other games. I don't still play Asteroids on Atari, for instance. We are still seeing an influx of players who are picking up the KotOR games for the first time, however. They are generally young, and they generally ask the same things I did about the game 3 years ago. I can either roll my eyes about it and focus on some of the negative things, or I can share their enthusiasm and appreciation for games I enjoy so much and help them out. I choose the latter, and I moderate with that philosophy in mind, i.e. the posts that are useless or flamey get deleted immediately. The staff will have to make decisions on how they want to handle that here, however. This is a different game, different forum, different culture than the one I'm working at and I'm not trying to tell them what to do. I will suggest having an FAQ sticky in the different forums, much like the Index of Ideas sticky in Sardelac. That may help with some of the newbie questions, too.
Clone
I think another issue is that forums are the given conduit to communication with Anet. People see the forums as the one place to try to get out their opinion. Often this follows the old addage of, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease," and complaints become commonplace. Personally, I think it is unwise for Anet to take so much stock in forums for this reason. People who are having fun in the game the way things are generally don't have much to complain about.
However, once a significant change occurs, the fallout then can be directed not only at Anet, but at the other forum members. I'll run the risk of sparking an Ursan debate and use it as an example. People who enjoyed the game as it was began to see the people who called for its removal in an adversarial and antagonistic light. It is a combination of a newfound need to be "more squeaky" to get Anet's attention in hopes to return to a comfortable status quo, as well as attempt to quell the voices they see adversly affecting them. Descenting voices can be seen not just random people on the internet. They are people trying to ruin the games you own.
However, once a significant change occurs, the fallout then can be directed not only at Anet, but at the other forum members. I'll run the risk of sparking an Ursan debate and use it as an example. People who enjoyed the game as it was began to see the people who called for its removal in an adversarial and antagonistic light. It is a combination of a newfound need to be "more squeaky" to get Anet's attention in hopes to return to a comfortable status quo, as well as attempt to quell the voices they see adversly affecting them. Descenting voices can be seen not just random people on the internet. They are people trying to ruin the games you own.
Savio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariena Najea
Quote: My main point is that the standard of forum posts has plummeted, and if Guru is going to maintain its status as a reputable community, things need to change. Aside from a few more +1 posts than usual, Guru has been mostly the same. We are a bit more relaxed than the other forums; it's how we do things. Considering the diverse population of Guru (sellers, farmers, PvErs, PvPers, new players, regulars, hardcore, casual, etc.) I am slightly surprised it isn't just a big ball of hate.
We don't have to be extremely polite or always on-topic in discussions; sometimes they get heated, or sometimes discussion ends up somewhere else.
Quote:
I took a look at the same thread, and was simply sickened by it. Not only the complete lack of morals or decency in most of the posters there, but by the attitude by which the thread was approached. While I strongly disagree with the OP's position, he has a good point that should be addressed. To what degree does a service require payment?|
Half the community doesn't flame Regina when she makes an announcement or answers questions
Most posts are articulate and relevent to the topic
People are nicer, I see fewer flames in general and very few pointless trolls
They aren't as diverse or as populated as Guru.
joshuarodger
in all honesty, i really enjoy the fact that people throw hate at other posters. i don't think it should be done to newer players, but i also believe that new members to guru should look at and, more importantly, read the stickies in each sub-forum. it does get very tiresome to answer "help with my build" topics each and every day. it gets even more tiresome to actually help someone with their build and hear "but that's my best skill and i'm not getting rid of it" or something along those lines.
i have been a member here a relatively short time and have really enjoyed the debate and heat that certain topics create. i asked quite a few noob questions when i first joined and took some ribbing for it, but i have a pretty thick skin most of the time so it just kind of rolled off my back. i realize that some people are a little more sensitive than i am and in that case should probably find a different forum in which to post. i also find many of the posts here extremely funny even if they are completely off topic and even a little mean. if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. i also blame Anet for a lot of the attitudes of the guru posters. not necessarily regina or anyone in particular, but i think their community relations is poor. not the people working in the CR department, but their set-up. forums are a good way to gauge to monitor how your clientele views your product, but there are other methods. polls on the log-in screen, periodic publications (weekly, monthly, quarterly) discussing in-game changes or ideas and upcoming events or new games, maybe even a bigger staff. i mean regina is only one person and i can imagine it's hard to be inundated with "listen to my idea, because it's the best" day-in and day-out. even one more person could alleviate a lot of that. anyway, i guess really what it boils down to is, guru is a great forum as long as you don't expect sunshine and roses from everyone. this isn't directed at OP, per se, but basically, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Ariena Najea
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuarodger
anyway, i guess really what it boils down to is, guru is a great forum as long as you don't expect sunshine and roses from everyone. this isn't directed at OP, per se, but basically, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
If everyone agreed all of the time and never took a firm stance, then we would never have good meaningful discussion. I'm all for a heated debate, with all sides throwing in their numbers and opinions even if the goal isn't to come to a common consensus. What I'm saying is that Guru can be a bloodbath and still be a great forum, but in its current state the discussion is more what I would expect from 4chan. I'm tired of the +1 mentality is all.
As for your last comment, I feel that if someone can't post for the good of the community (basically meaningful posts that positively contribute) they should get off of the forum. Now for a potentially horrible analogy. If a bunch of drunks storm a police station, the police maintain order instead of giving up because there is a standard of behavior.
joshuarodger
haha, your analogy made me laugh. i know you didn't actually mean to compare forum posts to complete, societal anarchy.
i agree that +1's get to be annoying sometimes but the forum titles, which is what the +1's are for, peak the interest of the average poster and get more people looking at more threads, which in turn, leads to more information, advice and, of course, flaming. without the forum titles, i'm sure there would be a tremendous decrease in the random, off-topic posts in otherwise informative threads. but those +1's, sometimes, do contain helpful info to the original poster. there are also times when i think someone needs to be knocked down a notch or two and flames are called for. this is an anonymous format, though, so really all that does is lead to a flame war, since someone can be as tough as they want when all they are doing is typing. that's when it gets to be funny to me though. i would bet that 90% of the people from this forum, if faced with the same argument on the street would end up apologizing to each other and going about their business, but where's the fun in that? "i'm typing and i'm tough."
Snow Bunny
Newer players have immense resources at their hands that older players did not in the outset of the game. Countless farming threads, guides on smashing through missions, price checks, hero setups, the Wiki, etc.
There's so much information available; the only thing there is to do on Guru these days is a. call someone bad b. make a good troll thread in attempts to emasculate people who take concept classes seriously c. +1 some epic rant thread d. fruitlessly try and help some poor newer player before the idiot parade arrives and gives him bad advice, or e. go over to OTA and make pointless +0 posts about absolutely RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOall. New players should use "Search" and the Wiki; there's at this stage really no necessity for any serious discussion at a new-player level of the game. Cartello
I think it's a multitude of things.
The veterans get better and become more cynical, rude and self important. (Yes, myself included) The newbies have it all laid out for them and become lazy. With only second hand knowledge in stock and a lot of crap leaking from all sorces, how will they ever know what to believe or how to perform better? Guild Wiki = Good. - GW is a large game. Every person here has used wiki and is not ashamed to admit it. PvX wiki however.. I find it amusing. It only exsists to walk players through the game. A skill bar of 8 is small. So laying it out on a plate for new players makes thema consistant empty vessel. the worst part is, it's the vet's own fault for sharing build for simplistic post count or rep in a forum. Ultimatly, the sorce of this complaining is going ot be from the older players, but if we look at it deeply, it's the older players own fault. they should have kept the knowledge to themself, only sharing it with guildies, not posting it on a forum where 1 million+ people will view it. Was the respect worth it? No people know YOU created the 'Sabway' team for example? - No. You're the one getting stung by it. So, with all this second hand knowledge and newbies who have had their hands held through it ALL (Texmods are annoying too!), this will reflect is most posts that come through, and they wont ever realise they're doing it! I think this need to be a lesson well learned for Guild Wars 2. To be honest though.. we all know it WILL happen again. History truely does repeat itself.
Kattar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savio
They aren't as diverse or as populated as Guru.
Completely agreed.
It's a problem of volume mostly. When I read here, I'm sometimes reminded of the WoW forums (yes, I went there). The more the population of a game grows, the more people find fansites and forums. In any given population, there's always a ratio of normal, well-adjusted people compared to the malcontents or the down-right idiotic. The more the population grows, the greater the percentage of the undesirable people who aren't here to help or contribute. Generally, the greater number of the population aren't here to make trouble. They're here because they like this game and want to be a part of the community associated with it. But there are some who aren't. And remember, the trolls/fanboys/troublemakers are always the loudest.
Numa Pompilius
Well, you can check my join date.
Guildwarsguru has been horribly negative since inception; in the first year there was a lot of complaining from the hardcore PvP community which had migrated from Diablo2 and expected Guild Wars to be Diablo3. They really hated that they were forced to play PvE to unlock skills & gear for PvP, and took every opportunity to vent their frustration. I don't really see that gwguru on average got any more or less civil or informative; the main difference is that there are fewer beginners now, and the complete, 110%, focus on farming. That there's fewer beginners is of course a result of the game now being three years old, and the myopic focus on farming is annoying but seems hard to do anything about - I get the impression many don't even realize the game can be played any other way than through farming.
glacialphoenix
Quote:
Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
Guildwarsguru has been horribly negative since inception; in the first year there was a lot of complaining from the hardcore PvP community which had migrated from Diablo2 and expected Guild Wars to be Diablo3. They really hated that they were forced to play PvE to unlock skills & gear for PvP, and took every opportunity to vent their frustration.
I haven't been in the game as long as you have since I joined it only after Factions came out, but I think that particular situation is inevitable. The moment you have a community that likes a particular game (Diablo II) migrating to a new game (GW), there's bound to be a fair few people who aren't happy with the new system. It's kind of like how every new update, someone's going to be unhappy, and someone's going to be gleeful over it.
When GW2 comes out, the same thing will probably happen. And yes, there are fewer beginners now, and those who are generally post (or so I've noticed) with threads that actually state they are a new player. Also, Wiki does exist, and it is helpful, but there are also those who would like to see and gather the opinions of more players, especially if they are unfamiliar with the class and experimenting with their builds. The thing is, it's very easy to perceive someone as noob when you are far more experienced with the class than they are. I once got irritated at a monk for constantly Rebirthing midbattle - until I realised that he'd just started monking and honestly didn't know any better. If I hadn't known that he'd just started, I probably would've classified him as 'noob'. I wouldn't be surprised if, as I said, the attitude carries over to GWGuru.
Vilaptca
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartello
I think it's a multitude of things.
The veterans get better and become more cynical, rude and self important. (Yes, myself included) The newbies have it all laid out for them and become lazy. With only second hand knowledge in stock and a lot of crap leaking from all sorces, how will they ever know what to believe or how to perform better? QFT I also think it has to do with boredom. From my perspective, I come here everyday, because it became a habit. When things were still new and exciting and you came here to buy/sell, to read about new/upcoming updates, to speculate about the future of GW, now we've really got nothing to do. Most of you can't see what I see, but there used to be a time when deleted spam threads in Riverside would be on page 4 within hours. I was actually surprised the other day when almost a whole day went by with that deleted spam thread still on page 1. That tells me that most of us have nothing new to discuss. And the very few things we do have are all consolidated into larger threads. It seems that many new threads are locked everyday. If a thread doesn't have an actual point or nothing new to add, all of the bored people who still check this forum regularly out of habit, will find that thread and turn it into garbage. The forum is just reflecting the state of the game right now. A lot of bored people with nothing new to do who still log on out of habit. When GW2 comes around there will be more discussion and you won't really notice the lack of quality in other posts because you'll be participating in real discussion about some new exciting things in GW2. wanmoke
I take a look at threads like this and it makes me cringe. Notice how in less than 12 hours it's already grown to seven pages(at the time I'm writing this), and that most of the responses are the same. People seem to want in on the drama even though the same stuff has been said over and over again.
People are drawn to drama it seems, and since there's nothing new in the game to discuss, people make threads to get attention. They refuse to acknowledge it and move on to a new game.
Ariena Najea
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanmoke
People are drawn to drama it seems, and since there's nothing new in the game to discuss, people make threads to get attention. They refuse to acknowledge it and move on to a new game. |
Most of the time in my experience this isn't a problem, a run either fails right away, succeeds in the end, or everyone agrees on a compromise. One weekend about 2 weeks ago for whatever reason, every time I went to do some Securing the Forest HFFF, something went wrong and the runs took about twice as long as what people were paying for. At this point, I told the leechers that they didn't need to pay if they didn't want to due to my failure of properly and expediently completing the run. My point? Take a mature attitude and make a fair decision without any rage or frustration. This applies to the rampant flames and trolls here on Guru, many seem to start because of personal attacks that some people feel require retribution. If you're so insecure that you have to "win" an argument on an online message board with someone you don't know, will never meet, and has no relevance to the important aspects of your life, please just find something else to occupy your time other than Guru.
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Originally Posted by Vilaptca
I also think it has to do with boredom. From my perspective, I come here everyday, because it became a habit. When things were still new and exciting and you came here to buy/sell, to read about new/upcoming updates, to speculate about the future of GW, now we've really got nothing to do
The solution to this is simple. It's alright if there isn't as much discussion as "back in the day" because as you said, there isn't very much left in Guild Wars. The introduction of MOX sparked some nice discussion, and many people are still speculating about the effects of the upcoming HoM changes, but otherwise, Regina has stated there is no more planned content for Guild Wars 1. With this said, bored people have many other options than going to a discussion forum. Those who come here to do very little but troll and +1 threads would probably enjoy themselves far more at 4chan where the purpose is to have fun through shenanigans and obnoxious humor. It's in everyone's best interest
wanmoke
While there is that point, the OP never bothered to tell the runner what he expected. It's immoral to take a service then not pay for it because they didn't live up to your expectations when you didn't even tell them your expectations are. How do I know you'll find my post satisfactory if you don't tell me what qualifies as such?
What I also noticed and why I chose that particular thread is that the OP tried to defend his actions in the beginning, but when most of the responses were negative towards his position, he hasn't posted in it. He gave up. I think he posted in the hopes that people would agree with him. Good discussion requires a certain level maturity from the participants. I've seen little of that since I joined. It's just how the online culture is, I think. DarkNecrid
No one is going to agree with that, because while Guru is more in your face, very few people here are immoral scammers, which is what his topic comes down to.
glacialphoenix
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Originally Posted by wanmoke
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Also, it may be just me, but any thread involving scamming inevitably comes down to a troll/flamewar. If you got scammed? You're a noob, even if you just mentioned that story as a form of explanation. If you're boasting about scamming? That's going to net you even more flames.
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Originally Posted by wanmoke
It's just how the online culture is, I think.
Not arguing with that. Lots of people get more aggressive and rude online because nobody's going to attempt to chastise them for it IRL.
wanmoke
I was trying to find a rationale behind his posting is why I said that. If he thought the thread was going to turn out good, he was setting himself up for disappointment.
pamelf
The game is quite old, and I agree with the poster above that it's a combination of veteran arrogance and newbies laziness..
On top of that however (and don't think I'm flaming the mods, overall they do a great job) I think that people get a bit tired of the restrictions placed on them by the moderators on the forum. We as a community have long been forced to conform to what they deem 'appropriate' or 'necessary' which is naturally completely subjective. Friendly discussion has never really been encouraged here, as anything not specifically 'on topic' is either deleted or given a public warning for. The forums in general try to be far too clinical in their approach to discussion, instead of letting it flow naturally we are in a sense sensored, more so than many other forums I've taken part in. Because of this I've found that we're quite a jaded and brutal community as we have no choice but to get exactly to the point we want to make as quickly as possible,without the chance of getting to actually know our fellow posters and their personalities, as anything that is not specifically related discussion (even if the other discussion is friendly) is heavily censored. Quite frankly, we are not allowed to be a friendly and open community. Jae Onasi
Deleting off-topic posts has nothing to do with openness or friendliness. At LF we remove off-topic posts routinely, but the community is very open and friendly. In fact, I think it maintains that level of friendliness because we moderate actively. Our members who are more reserved, who prefer an environment not filled with swearing every other word, or who hate to waste time wading through pages of spam feel a lot more welcome to post.
You can get to the point in a thread and yet be friendly and courteous--it's a matter of how it's written. If someone disagrees with me and says "You're an f-ing idiot and have s--t for brains", it tells me a whole lot about that person's personality and character, and it's quite different from the person who says "I disagree with you on this point because of x, y, and z." If someone wants to portray themselves as friendly and open, all they have to do is write their posts that way consistently, and people will quickly figure it out.
Commander Ryker
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Originally Posted by pamelf
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Because of this I've found that we're quite a jaded and brutal community as we have no choice but to get exactly to the point we want to make as quickly as possible,without the chance of getting to actually know our fellow posters and their personalities, as anything that is not specifically related discussion (even if the other discussion is friendly) is heavily censored.
Quite frankly, we are not allowed to be a friendly and open community. We encourage friendly and open. It's what we, as moderators work towards. What we don't encourage is hostility and meanness. It's because the community is brutal, jaded with a sense of entitlement and superiority that we've had to keep the forum moderated.
Quite frankly, we are not allowed to be a friendly and open community. We encourage friendly and open. It's what we, as moderators work towards. What we don't encourage is hostility and meanness. It's because the community is brutal, jaded with a sense of entitlement and superiority that we've had to keep the forum moderated.
Issac
Some people just argue for fun now, like when it gets boring people tend to pick fights and screw around and be rude etc.
pamelf
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Originally Posted by Commander Ryker
By who's standards should we moderate? Yours? Someone else? Everyone else? We have got to have some rules in place or it would be complete chaos. I have seen forums where there is no control at all and there's swearing, name calling, flaming etc. It's not a place I'd want to be and I think, neither would you. Guru is what it is because of the rules, not in spite of them.
We encourage friendly and open. It's what we, as moderators work towards. What we don't encourage is hostility and meanness. It's because the community is brutal, jaded with a sense of entitlement and superiority that we've had to keep the forum moderated. I agree that hostile, rude, and abusive posts need to go, but it was simply my observation that in general the actual discussion is not encouraged. People have written perfectly legitimate responses in the past and been censured for it for no apparent reason other than it was discussing something with another player personally via the forums.
Like I said, it's just an opinion, but the things that are censored are usually the types of posts that would actually allow us to get to know each other as people, not just as individuals who happen to share a common interest in a game.
We encourage friendly and open. It's what we, as moderators work towards. What we don't encourage is hostility and meanness. It's because the community is brutal, jaded with a sense of entitlement and superiority that we've had to keep the forum moderated. I agree that hostile, rude, and abusive posts need to go, but it was simply my observation that in general the actual discussion is not encouraged. People have written perfectly legitimate responses in the past and been censured for it for no apparent reason other than it was discussing something with another player personally via the forums.
Like I said, it's just an opinion, but the things that are censored are usually the types of posts that would actually allow us to get to know each other as people, not just as individuals who happen to share a common interest in a game.
Malice Black
As a former mod in Riverside I can say we NEVER censored anything or anyone. Off-topic posts in a discussion thread are deleted to keep the thread on track. Some posts are deleted because they contain references to deleted posts, hence why some legit posts do disappear.
Moderating Riverside is not an easy task. You also have to take into account each mod. Avarre for example is quite happy to let people bash each other within limits, I on the other hand deleted all BS. There is rules which mods must follow, but a lot of it in the discussion based forums is down to the mods judgment.
As for the decline of the forums I just don't see it. There is a lot of whinging etc, but there was whinging back in 2005 when I joined, it just wasn't as noticeable as there was far less users back then. Guru basically doubled the amount of users it had when Factions was released. Every area suddenly became very active, and with activity comes trouble.
There are bad apples in the current crowd, but they don't go unseen. I've had the benefit of being a mod so I know how everything works the behind the scene. If someone has been creating lots of useless threads or just been acting like a dick they will be user noted for it. Once they reach a certain amount of user notes they will be issued with a mini-ban.
Best thing to do is just ignore the trouble makers. If you see something that is rude etc hit the report button. Mods can't read every post in every thread, users have to help out also.
Moderating Riverside is not an easy task. You also have to take into account each mod. Avarre for example is quite happy to let people bash each other within limits, I on the other hand deleted all BS. There is rules which mods must follow, but a lot of it in the discussion based forums is down to the mods judgment.
As for the decline of the forums I just don't see it. There is a lot of whinging etc, but there was whinging back in 2005 when I joined, it just wasn't as noticeable as there was far less users back then. Guru basically doubled the amount of users it had when Factions was released. Every area suddenly became very active, and with activity comes trouble.
There are bad apples in the current crowd, but they don't go unseen. I've had the benefit of being a mod so I know how everything works the behind the scene. If someone has been creating lots of useless threads or just been acting like a dick they will be user noted for it. Once they reach a certain amount of user notes they will be issued with a mini-ban.
Best thing to do is just ignore the trouble makers. If you see something that is rude etc hit the report button. Mods can't read every post in every thread, users have to help out also.
Jenn
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Originally Posted by Jumping Is Uselss
nothing in GW is exciting anymore. Most of the topics worth mentioning have already been said. And most topics get repeated every week, which some people find annoying.
How primitive.
I agree with the OP - the quality of people and their posts is disappointing. People have become jaded, and lost sight of who they used to be: noobs, people with vested interest in discussions that they hadn't yet taken part in.
edit: Perhaps a reminder to some people who post on guru...
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The probably with this is that many Guru members are actively looking for drama due to their boredom. The experienced Guru members do not use posts to scold bad posters unless there is a good reason, such as the poster providing incorrect information that would negatively affect the thread's discussion.|
Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in kindness. As far as possible without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.
Avarre
Moderation does play a part, to a degree. I'm not going to talk about moderator policy, but I'll go over some basic things.
Size: Guru is a large forum with a lot of posters of varying capability. I'd be happy to give threads more slack on how they conform to 'on-topicness', but the sheer number of posters means that any direction threads take is accelerated. That means a small diversion can rapidly become full-out alternative discussion. Hence, people may feel 'censored' to stay within more narrow topic boundaries, but as Guru becomes larger, it becomes more important to try and enforce that to keep the thread generally on-topic. A smaller, more known community would be much easier to have lower restrictions on. 'Class structure': There are not so many 'newbs' that ask questions and for advice, but there are a lot of players that assume and make their opinion fact. You're more likely to see 'the game is too hard' than 'I need help at XYZ', and that leads to threads becoming treacherous mires of players that collectively are inexperienced, yet their views are entrenched more than the German Army in 1916. While it may cause a lot more discussion, it means the discussion is generally terrible. This leads to a conundrum - do you allow discussion since technically, rules are obeyed, or do you clamp down on discussion that is bad to promote quality, and in that case, who's the judge of bad? This also leads to the aggressive targeting of players by the community who are wrong but make the insistant assumption they are right (see: populationcontrol's N/W threads). Overall, that makes the community seem more vicious. Just the first two things that came to my mind. I'm a major supporter of community self-moderation - that bad posts should be labeled as such by the community, and hence quality can breed itself. However, this requires a community of good players to form the backbone, which is lacking. Often the players who are experienced are labeled as 'trolls' or 'griefers' because of the amount of contradictory posts they have to make in efforts to promote quality, and this promotes a general stagnation of poor posting.
Ariena Najea
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Originally Posted by Malice Black
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I appreciate the mods' efforts to control such a massive forum, however, with the overall brawl mentality to create drama and start fights, maybe a solution is to add a couple more mods in the high-traffic forums such as Sardelac.
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Originally Posted by Avarre
I'm a major supporter of community self-moderation - that bad posts should be labeled as such by the community, and hence quality can breed itself. However, this requires a community of good players to form the backbone, which is lacking. Often the players who are experienced are labeled as 'trolls' or 'griefers' because of the amount of contradictory posts they have to make in efforts to promote quality, and this promotes a general stagnation of poor posting.
I also believe in this methodology, however, on a forum as large and diverse as Guru this does not work. I can think of several posters whose posts I look forward to reading because in general they are well-thought out and interesting to read. In contrast, there are a few users I consistently see trolling and flaming other users who rarely post anything of value. When the veteran members of Guru label individual posts and members as destructive, nothing prevents them from posting more junk and having others flame them for it.
As for the "community of good players to form the backbone" I do my very best and see several other players consistently post to a high standard, however, without other posters taking pride in their posts, those who do take pride can do little to inspire that in others. There are tangible rewards for posting well, so only the people who appreciate the non-tangible will take the time to come up with well written posts. The only ways to encourage greatness is to give rewards or give punishments. If people don't find their own rewards in posting here, and instead choose to post crap, the only remaining solution is to moderate such posts. Again, Guru could use a few more moderators to deal with the massive amount of information posted.
Savio
So we have people who think we need to moderate more, and people who think we need to moderate less. I'm pretty sure that means we're where we should be.
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