Decline in Quality of Guru Posts and Attitudes

Please read the entirety of this post before jumping to any conclusions over the title.

I've been a member of this forum since July 2006, as is seen in my mini profile off to the left. Back then this forum seemed very different in comparison to how it is today. There was a lot more optimism for the future of the game, something that was not as obvious when Nightfall was released, and was non-existent when Eye of the North was released. I'm not suggesting that no one was excited for these releases, simply that the number of these excited people has dropped severely in the past couple years.

The title of my thread can be misleading, but I'm sure that at the base level many older and newer members alike will agree with me when I say that many posts as of late are devoid of any useful content pertaining to the thread whatsoever. I've noticed an increase in the number of gratuitous /(un)signed posts in Sardelac that contribute nothing to the thread, and seem to be present solely for increasing one's post count, making personal attacks at other posters, or trolling with a lolcat. Posts attempting to solve problems in the Questions and Answers forum have been met with useless posts with no evidence of research and sources, as well as more of the same post count bumps. The list goes on.

Take a look at the thread here (thread referenced while HawkofStorms has the final post, #11) for a moment and note the both useful and pertinent information posted by several users about testing methods, and further explaining how both the energy pools and regenerations work. Then note the posts, excluding the obvious troll, that contain a user's opinion on some related topic rather than a detailed analysis.

Here is another thread reference. This is an interesting discussion topic, very relevant to a large number of Guru members who had such experiences when first playing Guild Wars. Unlike in the previous example for the Q&A forum, the posts don't need research or sources, but need depth. This is a discussion topic, not intended to be a bad joke dumping ground as a couple posts on the first page would indicate. Trolls are annoying, but posters simply trying to wittily flame the thread opener are ridiculous.

My last reference is here. The thread creator puts out three separate questions about choosing a new class, and the responses vary. Most of the posts are alright, scratching the surface of at least one of the question. Others give quick and very general responses which are too vague to clearly answer any of the questions at all, making the post useless. My post answers two of the three questions and cites examples of different skill combinations to support my suggestions. My post is a little overkill perhaps, but I think somewhere between the other good posts and my own is a good standard for posts of this type.

My main point is that the standard of forum posts has plummeted, and if Guru is going to maintain its status as a reputable community, things need to change. I've always liked Guru, and never much went to any of the other popular forums such as GWOnline unless something over there was referenced in a post here on Guru. I've recently taken a look around and noticed a few points of interest:Half the community doesn't flame Regina when she makes an announcement or answers questions Most posts are articulate and relevent to the topic People are nicer, I see fewer flames in general and very few pointless trolls
Let's work to make Guru a better community for all of us.

Guild Wars was a great game in 2006. It's really not in 2008.

Posters will respond accordingly.

People get jaded with experience, and more inclined to yell at everything and everyone.

That's what's happening in the game, so of course it translates here.

Can you really expect anything else? =\

+1

Had to be said.

More seriously - the lack of substantive posts reflects the generally unimaginative player community. This lack of imagination stems from the fact that inventiveness and creativity are no longer consistently rewarded in the PvE or PvP communities. The PvP community as a rule prizes skill at clicking things and pressing keys over developing new ideas, Observer mode limits the benefits to be reaped from innovation, and stale metas have encouraged learning to play specific bars exceptionally well rather than becoming a well-rounded player.

Similarly, the PvE community lacks new content, meaning that there is a comparative dearth of places to innovate in order to gain advantage and in-game wealth.

Upshot: the community is self-selecting, and the creative players by and large selected out in favor of learning new games with new challenges.

Ive been here since 2005 and yeah i totally agree with the Ariena.

Yesterday i posted a thread suggesting something to improve the game (which btw Ariena had posted some nice words there) and ppl went there just to say i wanna get attention... what? yes thats unbelievable.

I used a situation that happened to me involving little amount of gold and a scammer, and even after i repeat myself over 3 times that i was not suggesting that because i lost money, but to improve the game, i got like 3-5 ppl coming there and saying: "suck it up, it was your fault you lost the gold".

People either dont think anymore before post or dont know how to read and understand a text.

Quote: Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

i think it's partly because of average age of some posters.

Most people get tired of seeing the same topics and answering the same questions. Guru has always ALWAYS ALWAYS been harsher than other fansites and more in your face and that will probably never change because that is what Guru is. When big stuff happens it simmers down (the skill update topic was pretty good the one that changed elites), and will simmer down this month too I'm sure. Not everyone thoroughly enjoys answering the same questions and discussing the same stuff 5000000000x times.

It is a combination of you changing, the other people changing, and new players joining the mix. I have been through a few different video game forums where they evolved (or devolved, hehe) to be something completely different from where they were on day 1. The vets get bitter and the newbs are more annoying by the post. At some point you have to realize that nothing in life is set in stone and that you need to accept the change. The good 'ol days wouldn't be good unless they were in the past. Make the best of what you have right now and don't stress over the state of things. Just be happy that things aren't worse

-Alastair

Quote: Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Quote: Originally Posted by Lord Zion

I agree with the OP. I would like to see the end of the ridiculous "+1" brigade, and also those posters who believe that their post "wins" or "/closes" the thread after a throw away comment that is usually an insult to the OP in question. Such people add nothing to the content here yet more of them appear to be 'contributing'.

Tougher moderating would be good, but then people would cry out, but if it meant that those people had to go away and construct a considered reply to a thread then I'd be all for it.

I'll take a shot at this. I have two perspectives: a. A relatively new player, and certainly fairly new to this forum and b. super-moderator over at Lucasforums.com in the KotOR section, where we're experiencing a similar kind of ennui with those games among older players because of how long ago they were released.

From the point of view of a player being relatively new to the game and this forum, it does have a higher number of off-topic/off-color posts than I'm accustomed to on LF, but that could just be part of the culture. I can roll with whatever the community has established as their particular spam to legit post ratio as long as the spam isn't horribly high. I have more important things to do than read idiotic or +1 posts, and when I'm at work on the blackberry, spam wastes a lot of time and bandwidth because of the slow loading times on my phone. I'm fine with seeing legitimate questions, however, even if they appear to be repeats of something that got asked 2 years ago.

Older players also need to be a little patient with us newer players. What's old hat to you is something completely new to me. I'm still discovering something new virtually every time I play. Just be patient with someone who answers newbie questions, and if you don't want to do that, then just don't post. Skip the entire thread if need be. It'll save both you and the OP headaches. As my grandma used to say, 'If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it.'

However, if the spamming/off-topic problem has increased, it means that the staff may have to step in more to get it calmed back down. I don't know if it has or not because I don't have any way to compare to what was going on 2 years ago. What I have learned (sometimes the hard way) that it's much easier to put out one small spark than it is to deal with a thread that's exploded into an all-out flame or spam war. It's a lot harder to deal with a culture of spamming if the spamming has gotten way out of hand. It also helps considerably if members just report the posts by clicking on the little red triangle below your avatar instead of replying to rude or off-topic posts, as well. You'll save the staff time by not making them have to delete your post pointing out how someone else broke the rules as well as the offending post.

From the point of view as an s-mod on a forum of an older game, there is going to be a certain level of boredom crop up in a 3 year old game. People who were active when the game first came out may move on to other, newer games--that's OK. We expect some turnover and people deciding to play other games. I don't still play Asteroids on Atari, for instance. We are still seeing an influx of players who are picking up the KotOR games for the first time, however. They are generally young, and they generally ask the same things I did about the game 3 years ago. I can either roll my eyes about it and focus on some of the negative things, or I can share their enthusiasm and appreciation for games I enjoy so much and help them out. I choose the latter, and I moderate with that philosophy in mind, i.e. the posts that are useless or flamey get deleted immediately. The staff will have to make decisions on how they want to handle that here, however. This is a different game, different forum, different culture than the one I'm working at and I'm not trying to tell them what to do. I will suggest having an FAQ sticky in the different forums, much like the Index of Ideas sticky in Sardelac. That may help with some of the newbie questions, too.

I think another issue is that forums are the given conduit to communication with Anet. People see the forums as the one place to try to get out their opinion. Often this follows the old addage of, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease," and complaints become commonplace. Personally, I think it is unwise for Anet to take so much stock in forums for this reason. People who are having fun in the game the way things are generally don't have much to complain about.

However, once a significant change occurs, the fallout then can be directed not only at Anet, but at the other forum members. I'll run the risk of sparking an Ursan debate and use it as an example. People who enjoyed the game as it was began to see the people who called for its removal in an adversarial and antagonistic light. It is a combination of a newfound need to be "more squeaky" to get Anet's attention in hopes to return to a comfortable status quo, as well as attempt to quell the voices they see adversly affecting them. Descenting voices can be seen not just random people on the internet. They are people trying to ruin the games you own.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ariena Najea I've noticed an increase in the number of gratuitous /(un)signed posts in Sardelac that contribute nothing to the thread, and seem to be present solely for increasing one's post count, making personal attacks at other posters, or trolling with a lolcat. Posts attempting to solve problems in the Questions and Answers forum have been met with useless posts with no evidence of research and sources, as well as more of the same post count bumps. The list goes on. Those issues were around when I first became a moderator.

Quote: My main point is that the standard of forum posts has plummeted, and if Guru is going to maintain its status as a reputable community, things need to change. Aside from a few more +1 posts than usual, Guru has been mostly the same. We are a bit more relaxed than the other forums; it's how we do things. Considering the diverse population of Guru (sellers, farmers, PvErs, PvPers, new players, regulars, hardcore, casual, etc.) I am slightly surprised it isn't just a big ball of hate.

We don't have to be extremely polite or always on-topic in discussions; sometimes they get heated, or sometimes discussion ends up somewhere else.

in all honesty, i really enjoy the fact that people throw hate at other posters. i don't think it should be done to newer players, but i also believe that new members to guru should look at and, more importantly, read the stickies in each sub-forum. it does get very tiresome to answer "help with my build" topics each and every day. it gets even more tiresome to actually help someone with their build and hear "but that's my best skill and i'm not getting rid of it" or something along those lines.

i have been a member here a relatively short time and have really enjoyed the debate and heat that certain topics create. i asked quite a few noob questions when i first joined and took some ribbing for it, but i have a pretty thick skin most of the time so it just kind of rolled off my back. i realize that some people are a little more sensitive than i am and in that case should probably find a different forum in which to post. i also find many of the posts here extremely funny even if they are completely off topic and even a little mean. if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

i also blame Anet for a lot of the attitudes of the guru posters. not necessarily regina or anyone in particular, but i think their community relations is poor. not the people working in the CR department, but their set-up. forums are a good way to gauge to monitor how your clientele views your product, but there are other methods. polls on the log-in screen, periodic publications (weekly, monthly, quarterly) discussing in-game changes or ideas and upcoming events or new games, maybe even a bigger staff. i mean regina is only one person and i can imagine it's hard to be inundated with "listen to my idea, because it's the best" day-in and day-out. even one more person could alleviate a lot of that.

anyway, i guess really what it boils down to is, guru is a great forum as long as you don't expect sunshine and roses from everyone. this isn't directed at OP, per se, but basically, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Quote: Originally Posted by joshuarodger

haha, your analogy made me laugh. i know you didn't actually mean to compare forum posts to complete, societal anarchy.

i agree that +1's get to be annoying sometimes but the forum titles, which is what the +1's are for, peak the interest of the average poster and get more people looking at more threads, which in turn, leads to more information, advice and, of course, flaming. without the forum titles, i'm sure there would be a tremendous decrease in the random, off-topic posts in otherwise informative threads. but those +1's, sometimes, do contain helpful info to the original poster.

there are also times when i think someone needs to be knocked down a notch or two and flames are called for. this is an anonymous format, though, so really all that does is lead to a flame war, since someone can be as tough as they want when all they are doing is typing. that's when it gets to be funny to me though. i would bet that 90% of the people from this forum, if faced with the same argument on the street would end up apologizing to each other and going about their business, but where's the fun in that?

"i'm typing and i'm tough."

Newer players have immense resources at their hands that older players did not in the outset of the game. Countless farming threads, guides on smashing through missions, price checks, hero setups, the Wiki, etc.


There's so much information available; the only thing there is to do on Guru these days is a. call someone bad b. make a good troll thread in attempts to emasculate people who take concept classes seriously c. +1 some epic rant thread d. fruitlessly try and help some poor newer player before the idiot parade arrives and gives him bad advice, or e. go over to OTA and make pointless +0 posts about absolutely RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOall.



New players should use "Search" and the Wiki; there's at this stage really no necessity for any serious discussion at a new-player level of the game.

I think it's a multitude of things.
The veterans get better and become more cynical, rude and self important. (Yes, myself included)
The newbies have it all laid out for them and become lazy. With only second hand knowledge in stock and a lot of crap leaking from all sorces, how will they ever know what to believe or how to perform better?

Guild Wiki = Good. - GW is a large game. Every person here has used wiki and is not ashamed to admit it. PvX wiki however..
I find it amusing. It only exsists to walk players through the game. A skill bar of 8 is small. So laying it out on a plate for new players makes thema consistant empty vessel. the worst part is, it's the vet's own fault for sharing build for simplistic post count or rep in a forum.
Ultimatly, the sorce of this complaining is going ot be from the older players, but if we look at it deeply, it's the older players own fault. they should have kept the knowledge to themself, only sharing it with guildies, not posting it on a forum where 1 million+ people will view it. Was the respect worth it? No people know YOU created the 'Sabway' team for example? - No.
You're the one getting stung by it.

So, with all this second hand knowledge and newbies who have had their hands held through it ALL (Texmods are annoying too!), this will reflect is most posts that come through, and they wont ever realise they're doing it!
I think this need to be a lesson well learned for Guild Wars 2. To be honest though.. we all know it WILL happen again. History truely does repeat itself.