PAX Panel: Girls and Games

I'm right here, you know. Trolling probably isn't the best idea.

Posts deleted, thread will be closed if it goes on excessively.

Everything has a drama potential, though. Nevermind high-end PvP, some of the biggest griefers I've met are guys, including one who cussed out my friend simply because she was lagging. And this was in SJ Island.

Well, I'm not denying that there are people stirring the drama pot around girls. If I had to choose changing peoples' perspectives or simply not allowing their perspectives to matter in the guild, I know what I'd pick, though.

Need more figureheads to alter perspectives, so things won't change for awhile.

Edit for below:

Guild Wars is a little too dying for it to matter.

So it seems to me that drama follows girls around like some love sick ant's nest, not meaning that girls are always the cause but they always seem to be there.

Getting figure heads could be a problem because Guild Wars is, well, some what isolating. I can't name any in the top 100 Guilds, nor do I know anyone really famous. How would the community gain a figurehead when half the players don't even seem to know how to move the ping counter?

What a tired, old subject. Yes, girls have a part in game production and play them as well...novel concept. Just like every other industry really.

I was going to come and post here, with some hilarious chauvinist pictures, and some references to Dick Masterson while telling everyone to stop being so dumb, but really, there's no point. I don't see ANY reason as to focus on whether a player is a girl or a guy, it doesn't make any difference. You get terrible girls as often as you get terrible guys.

The way I see it, if all the girls who played games were more like Daenara, then it would be a much nicer (and much less ridiculous) place. <3

ITT: Boys pretending to be girls, and other boys not giving a damn.

Really, who gives a damn. There are no chicks on the Internet, sans Avarre (and Jen, but none of you know Jen, even though she's the coolest girl gamer ever (not to mention the only one)).

There will always be people trolling others for whatever reason they can find. If people find it so painful to be insulted (some examples posted so blatantly stupid you know it's sarcastic) then perhaps you should remain genderless.

Attention "female gamers", no one actually gives a flying ---- about your sex on the internet unless you deliberately choose to bring it to their attention. For that matter, gay-gamers, no one cares about your sexuality. People just like being part of little cliques; I guess it makes them feel comfortable. Personally I even have trouble with people who go out of their way to identify themselves as "gamers" like the nerds on kotaku. These little pseudo-cultures and the non-issues they constantly like to talk about are slightly amusing but mostly just annoying.

There is misogyny everywhere, but true misogyny has a lot of trouble existing on the internet or in video games; which are all-inclusive by nature. You are the perfect example, someone who creates illusory problems out of complete non-issues. If you go out of your way to look for misogyny or apparent misogyny, you will find it. With the ubiquity of "fag" in the vocabulary of say, gamefaqs forum regulars you'd think they were universally homophobic. Which is obviously not true.

When someone says "there are no girls on the internet", they are joking. Any reasonable person would be able to see that.

Fallot, I think I love you. <3 :P I agree with that so much. I, as a female, have never felt the need to identify myself as a "girl gamer", let alone bring it to anyone's attention, let alone feel threatened by it if some random stranger on the internet tries to make a big deal of it! Seriously, no one cares if you're female. If you don't bring it up, why on earth would anyone else know, or care. And to make a big deal by segregating yourself into a "female gamer" clique, I find that you're just asking for it.

People come on, I'm trying to look respectable and sophisticated for the snugglies that feel offended.

You can't just tell them to grow thicker skin, take jokes, and stop trying to be special, they might get emotionally unstable.

I jest, of course, but if you're reading that and find it offensive, then you should take a good look at yourself.

Linsey's my new hero.

While I partially agree with you, I don't think you're entirely correct in what you're saying with regards to how males approach females. When I join PUG vent channels for PvP or PvE, or a new guild's vent for the first time, there are several guys people who immediately draw attention to the fact that I'm a "female gamer" as soon as the word "hey" comes out of my mouth. When they give responses like that, it affects me on a comfort level. It's strange having guys give extra recognition and respect right off the bat to me just because I'm female. Most of these people tend to be in their teens, however; actually, it's kind of weirder then because you have 14 year old boys hitting on you O.o.

I also think there's that middle-ground, where more guys make lame, bad jokes about females in their presence, than there are actual creepy guys who like the attention of females. I'm fairly certain on this point because even though tons of guys have presented themselves stupidly upon introduction, very few have ever bothered to persue my attention on a creepy level. On average I'd say no more than 1-2 people per large guild. And only 3 people on the internet (2 GW, 1 elsewhere) have ever posed a real threat to my physical well-being.

On the flip side, I agree that some females (whether they are aware of it or not) set themselves up to get this kind of attention by pointint out the fact that they have breasts. In my old guild, a female started a cry-baby thread on our forums about how people jested at her "girly" signature (pink stuff). She said it hurt her feelings, and made her feel uncomfortable, and made all sorts of female-gender remarks. If anything, their personality is only further fueled by guys wanting to coddle the precious lone female in their guild by stroking her ego through gifts, company, compliments and shelter. It's pathetic. Those females need to get their validation elsewhere.

Agreed - I don't think they are serious... just stupid. They either need to get about 10 more years on their age, or a new repertoire of jokes.

Ventrilo. It's where almost all my problems come from -_-

As for those who are likely to reply, "if ventrilo is your problem, don't use it!" but do you honestly expect me to sacrifice my participation in a guild or team of people I mostly really like and enjoy? I have hope that most people are decent, which is why I continue to use that as a method of communication and participation.

Yeah, my wife plays GW as well (and she also has boobies ) and I've heard the same thing said, dont forget that female gamers, at least for GW style games, are still a minority and being able to share such a hobby is pretty awesome and personally I say "if you play together you stay together"
I've also seen the opposite with friends who' wives consider themselves WoWidows which has in at least one case led to a divorce.

As for the marketing, well, 50% of the population is female so losing out on that market is a big loss, I do fully agree that most marketeers are utterly clueless on female gamers but I've also noticed that the adage "a good game is a good game" does apply, ie a game does not need to be specifically tailored to a sex to be a success with said sex.

There's still a "social" bias among girls compared to guys which traditional games have lacked... although games have also been missing out on the social guys too. MMOs, Multiplayer insanity like Guitar Hero and Wii stuff on consoles, and the insanely succesful Sims are bringing them into the fold. Imagine if Cinema was purely comic book and sci-fi thrillers, and there were no romantic comedies or soulful relationship etc. movies. Or TV without soap operas and reality shows. That's where games have been and are only now moving away from it. Bonus points for MMO-type games which can provide both special effects-laden fantasy violence and human relationships at once.

I want to punch her in the face for trying to represent the female population. If you can get over the fact that you're a female gamer, other people will as well. The only problem a female gamer would have when playing games is a sudden on set of horrific period cramps, resulting in vomiting.

Also, Fallot, I have to agree with you. Gender, race and sexuality aren't big deals unless someone is idiotic enough to think they are. Danglies or jigglies don't matter if you do your job or whatever well.

You're right, that was worded a little more strongly than I'd hoped. People will still act like people and I should've considered and mentioned that.

I think this has become a bit of a cliche. Obviously, its the common sense (and correct) argument and you'd expect it to be repeated every time the topic is brought up. However I think the best course of action would be to not discuss this topic at all. What else could be surer proof that games are all-inclusive when nobody cares

There used to be a guy in my alliance who said that girls couldn't play games a very long time back. He said that I was probably a guy because, well, we've ABed together and not meaning to brag but I can play one hell of a mean ranger. The rest of the team (alliance group) said "Kai's a girl you know" and he said "nah, any girls who play MMOs always suck at it, kai has to be a guy."

There is one example, I have heard of plenty more (happening to other people as well) but I don't want to write a 5 page essay about it.

Naturally a male would have no trouble about misogyny on Guild Wars because unless there was a huge misunderstanding, a male would never be the target of misogyny.

But there is also the problem of those overfeminine girly girls who play MMOs... seriously, I just want to skin them with a spoon. I'm talking about the ones that cause drama because the guild cape doesn't have pink unicorns on it or because they want to have an e-relationship with the leader... who happens to be married IRL.

There are two extremes on the boundary here, the males who think that girls are inferior (I can name a few in this thread...) and the females who think they should get special treatment just because they're female.

Me? The only special treatment I ask for is that you refer to me as a "she" or a "her", thank you.

And Avarre, it's pretty hard to point out "good female warrior" players because Guild Wars is not a particularly social game, and neither am I a particularly social person. Also the only thing I do on GW is alliance battles or FoW, and in alliance battles it's hard to find a good player, let alone a good female warrior.

Besides the definition of "good" changes with where you play. I have met plenty of "good" warriors in FoW (example, ones who don't leeroy and suicide, ones who listen to the team, ones who know that you don't need a bonder and an obs flesh tank in FoW...) who are women.

Agreed. My stance on being a female who does happen to play games is this: I would like you to respect me as a fellow player. The problem arises when people say things like "Oh, you're a girl? You can't be a girl, girls suck at games" or choose to condescend. I acknowledge that girls can be terrible players, just as guys can be terrible players. But I don't enjoy being stereotyped just because someone happens to figure out that I'm a girl - and you guys, you wouldn't like to be stereotyped as a chauvinist either.

I get very, very irritated by girls who use the fact that they're female to siphon expensive stuff off guys. It's like a gendered version of the beggers who haunt various areas pleading for 100g when they could get it themselves. Drives me nuts. It's nice to know that there's another girl playing, but the fact that you have boobs does not make you entitled to everything in the game kthx.

Marketers probably need to realise that.

Nintendo fanboys crying over linsey comment: http://gonintendo.com/?p=54282

To paraphrase George Carlin: consider how stupid the average person is - and then realize that half of them are stupider than that.

When most gamers are morons and incompetents, I can't see that one gender being categorically better than the other makes a damn bit of difference because chances are you still RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing fail.

The emphasis on 'female gamers' is tired, and most of the industry has missed the boat: the Nintendo boat, specifically. Design with wide appeal and you won't have to worry about "catering to female gamers".

I wonder if any of these panelists have been exposed to the Japanese gaming industry. "Gotta bang 'em all" is a highly relevant market segment.

Oh my god I couldn't stop laughing when I read all of the comments of the crying fanboys. Linsey Murdock is now my favorite person at ArenaNet.

/Win_Ninentdogames

On topic: I dont care about others gender. Their skill is what I are about.

Girls have always played in all games.
The difference is that now they say that they do more often.

It's like anime. Years ago those things were considered 'for kids', now, like games and movies, each one has its rate.
Games where considered for 'immature kids'. That's no more.

Special thanks for games like Brain Trainer.

old news, who cares. the only problem ive ever had is signing on vent and the first thing i hear after i say something is "omg! a girl." obviously the person is joking, however, its annoying either way. and again. who cares.

When I see girls playing video games, I get sad. It's less "wtf girls can't be playing my gamez" and more "WHAT ARE YOU DOING!? SAVE YOURSELVES!!!11!1!" /sarcasm

Honestly, don't see anything wrong with it. More people to play with = awesome. The only problem with girls playing video games are the inability of male players around them to grow the hell up. I've seen quite a few guilds in WoW fall apart because the dudes acted quite literally like immature, whiny caveman. Sad, sad...

That said: Lindsey RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing rules.

I LoL'd so hard i pulled the keyboard off my desk and it broke...

I need a new one now

^^Don't give them ideas!

I'm an "old girl" who likes to play RPG even MMO-games and my husband likes them too.
Can you immagine what shock it would be to reveal my age to a PUG after we did a very good job on a difficult mission? Would you play with your granny?

I always get a laugh when they don't believe me.

One of my clanmates in TF2 is 45, we call her "Auntie Doon" : ) Love her to death! She makes an awesome Engie.

The question of my gender never arose since I've been playing GW - about 29 months.

But, about a year ago, I was standing around The Marketplace giving away armor collector drops and got into a conversation with two others about the problems with raising teenagers. Another player (obviously a young one) started demanding that we cease our conversation. That our topic was ruining his playing. He didn't believe that the three of us were mothers, but insisted we were boys trying to drive him crazy.

"Girls don't play GW and mothers don't play video games" was what he ended up spamming.

He would probably agree with the Marketing that thinks females should have their own games where they won't disturb the male ego.

People care much more to be sang starsongs and are much more disappointed when such songs are not sung.

However I am a Female Girl and I've yet to meet anyone to match my incredibly expert dexterity.

Avarre, let's say you met 12 gamers. 10 boys, 2 girls. The drama queen percentage PER GENDER is 60%. This means that 4 of the boys you have met will be drama free gamers, but both the girls will be drama queens.

To make the assumption that drama is inherently caused by female gamers is erronous. If the statistics some have thrown around in this thread are correct, 90-95% of GW are male gamers. Then there is no way that you could have met a statistically significant proportion of the female gamers in GW in order to make an unbiased statement.

In my experience, drama has always been cause by the males in the guilds and groups I've been in. This does not make my experience that male games are the core of all grief, any more or less true than your belief that all female players are drama queens, as I have also not met a statistically significant proportion for female games in order to make an unbiased statement.

The fact is that in the western world society has certain ideas that change only very slowly over time.

Pink is for girls.
Blue is for boys.
Dolls are for girls.
Cars are for boys.
Ponies are for girls.
Games are for guys.

And the older men in suits no doubt cling to the idea that their audience is the 15yr old in his mother's basement - and they design their games accordingly. Girls play them because they want to play games, yes we get annoyed by the unrealistic character models and sluttish clothing, but ultimately we want to play the game and we don't give a hoot what on earth our character looks like if it is the only method of playing the game.

Games are slowly evolving too, they are slowly moving into the realm of art and expression, like TV, Film, and Music. They are escapism. Yet still men in suits are convinced that gamers are easy to please with enough gore.

The fact that the DDDD+ cup and the blood running everywhere only sells to those 15 yr olds in their mother's basement - is something that hasn't clicked to the people holding the purse strings because as far as western culture is concerned they are the only ones who play games.

It hasn't seemed to have quite clicked yet that good story sells to all.

This is not a problem in Asia where they have never had the idea that cartoons and games are for kids. That games, technology, <insert western ideology here> are for boys.

Cracking the "girl" market will not take anything amazing except a change in thought. Games are not for kids, games are not boys, games are an art medium, they have a story, and pictures, that they are made appealing by their ease and seamlessness of play (menus and learning curve as opposed to one hit kills). Have your gore, but give it meaning. Have your DDDD+ breasted chick, but give her a personality. These things will not make the game more "girly" they will simply make a better game - one that everyone is interested in playing.

TBH I'm disappointed in this panel. They addressed almost everything that people no longer care about, and not the one thing that might have made for a serious discussion - women IN the games industry. How did they get there? What problems did they face? These are the important questions because as much as youngsters swear there is equility in the industry the reality is that there is not. Knowing what problems others face makes it less scary to those contemplating a career in the industry. Knowing that others have overcome these problems and how gives future hopefuls a helpful weapon in their arsenel.

Do you have a real point in your post, or are you just trying to start a fight?

PS: Don't pull statistics out. Go play the game, and find out for yourself. I don't know how many of you were actually involved in PvP beyond RA, and frankly, if you haven't been in that environment, you have absolutely no say regarding it.

imho:

"Nice one, Linsey…really nice. Did you ever play Super Princess Peach? Peach goes out and saves Mario’s ass in that one! Also, how many times have we seen the tough, assertive side of peach in the Paper Mario series?! Linsey, I don’t know you very well, but you seem to be hurting your cause, more than helping. Thanks to Matt for the heads up."

Lindsey's comments regarding Princess Peach shows you that she's so much under the influence of the gamming community is gear towards male syndrome, by making the princess peach comment she thinks that makes her tough. you don't have to be male to be tough, you just have to be you what ever you do where ever you are. much like the Marlo's comment about teaching girls to think a certain way, its f**k up

Just be yourself!

Avarre, my apologies, what I read from your initial post was that "you" personally would not game with females for that reason regardless of what the rest of the population was like. I probably should have quoted initially.

I trust statistics more than I do stereo types. More than a few people have noted that there are not many "top" female players. Statistically if the proportion of female players are low, then this should not be surprising. How should that instantly provide decisive evidence that girls don't play as well as guys? Or even that they only play certain classes? If only 1% of players can be classified as good/top players, and the proportion of girls to boys is 1:100, then the top 1% of 10,000 players would include a total of 1 girl.

Since when was it a requirement to have won mAT to have an opinion on girls and guys playing PvP? I would agree that to have a good idea of the environment one needs to know the environment personally, I'm not of the habit of pulling my opinions out of a hat. In all my HA and GvG experience, it has always been several of the males on the team who were unable to leave their egos at the door and pull together as a team. If I trusted the stereo type of my experience rather than the most likely statistics, I'd have stopped PvPing a long time ago.

But that is beside the point of the actual topic. Guys should not be surprised to find that girls enjoy games of all sorts, whether they are competitive or not. Most girls I know don't call themselves girl gamers, they call themselves gamers. Trying to address the topic of getting more girls to play games has been overworked to glory over the last few years. Thinking Pink is not the answer.

Do those of you spouting crap about being 'unbiased' actually believe the things you say, or are you just arguing? People naturally thin-slice their experiences as a predictive tool. If I meet 10 people who exhibit certain traits, and 9 out of those 10 engage in certain behaviors, I'm going to assume that those traits are related to those behaviors, whether there's a statistically relevant correlation in the general population or not. This bias will be retained as long as it has demonstrable predictive value - in short, you can't eliminate bias if the people holding it aren't presented with a significant number of exceptions.

Bottom line: stereotypes will not disappear as long as enough people continue to live up to them.

Omg thanks so much for that! That totally made my day.

Maybe I'm just stupid, but I've never let stereo-types dictate my gaming experience.

Example (PvE): A player with a bad bar is only detrimental to the team if he/she becomes argumentative when given helpful suggestions. And by this I'm not referring to the "run pvx build noob" that I've seen in some teams. Those who believe the stereo type that a bad bar = a bad player are letting the stereo type dictate their team composition.

This is something I don't do. I am willing to believe the best of a player until they prove themselves to be a total ass.

PvE is easy. Getting through it without PvX is not a challenge. If I'd passed up the opportunity to team with "noobish" players who were more than willing to listen and learn, I'd have missed out some of the better experiences I've had whilst gaming.

Well, I don't know about you, but I don't have time to get to know everyone I see. If I see a guy in a wifebeater and baggy jeans hanging off their ass, I'm going to make certain assumptions about him before anyone moves or opens their mouths. Sure, these assumptions could be totally wrong - but until I actually meet such an exception, there's really no reason or evidence compelling me to change my assumptions.

Similarly, if someone in GW shows up with a terrible bar, I'm going to assume that that person doesn't have a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing clue what they are doing. They could actually be the best GW player in the history of the game out on a lark, I suppose, but I don't have the time or inclination to worry about such random exceptions.

Thus, if someone like Avarre keeps running into drama queens, I fail to see how they could be disabused of their notions without compelling evidence. Who's going to care about how great women are supposed to be if every one you actually meet is a disaster?

Being unbiased might be great to talk about, but it's impractical and frankly fails to reflect reality.