PAX Panel: Girls and Games

I'm right here, you know. Trolling probably isn't the best idea.

Posts deleted, thread will be closed if it goes on excessively.

Everything has a drama potential, though. Nevermind high-end PvP, some of the biggest griefers I've met are guys, including one who cussed out my friend simply because she was lagging. And this was in SJ Island.

Well, I'm not denying that there are people stirring the drama pot around girls. If I had to choose changing peoples' perspectives or simply not allowing their perspectives to matter in the guild, I know what I'd pick, though.

Need more figureheads to alter perspectives, so things won't change for awhile.

Edit for below:

Guild Wars is a little too dying for it to matter.

So it seems to me that drama follows girls around like some love sick ant's nest, not meaning that girls are always the cause but they always seem to be there.

Getting figure heads could be a problem because Guild Wars is, well, some what isolating. I can't name any in the top 100 Guilds, nor do I know anyone really famous. How would the community gain a figurehead when half the players don't even seem to know how to move the ping counter?

What a tired, old subject. Yes, girls have a part in game production and play them as well...novel concept. Just like every other industry really.

I was going to come and post here, with some hilarious chauvinist pictures, and some references to Dick Masterson while telling everyone to stop being so dumb, but really, there's no point. I don't see ANY reason as to focus on whether a player is a girl or a guy, it doesn't make any difference. You get terrible girls as often as you get terrible guys.

The way I see it, if all the girls who played games were more like Daenara, then it would be a much nicer (and much less ridiculous) place. <3

There will always be people trolling others for whatever reason they can find. If people find it so painful to be insulted (some examples posted so blatantly stupid you know it's sarcastic) then perhaps you should remain genderless.

Attention "female gamers", no one actually gives a flying ---- about your sex on the internet unless you deliberately choose to bring it to their attention. For that matter, gay-gamers, no one cares about your sexuality. People just like being part of little cliques; I guess it makes them feel comfortable. Personally I even have trouble with people who go out of their way to identify themselves as "gamers" like the nerds on kotaku. These little pseudo-cultures and the non-issues they constantly like to talk about are slightly amusing but mostly just annoying.

There is misogyny everywhere, but true misogyny has a lot of trouble existing on the internet or in video games; which are all-inclusive by nature. You are the perfect example, someone who creates illusory problems out of complete non-issues. If you go out of your way to look for misogyny or apparent misogyny, you will find it. With the ubiquity of "fag" in the vocabulary of say, gamefaqs forum regulars you'd think they were universally homophobic. Which is obviously not true.

When someone says "there are no girls on the internet", they are joking. Any reasonable person would be able to see that.

Fallot, I think I love you. <3 :P I agree with that so much. I, as a female, have never felt the need to identify myself as a "girl gamer", let alone bring it to anyone's attention, let alone feel threatened by it if some random stranger on the internet tries to make a big deal of it! Seriously, no one cares if you're female. If you don't bring it up, why on earth would anyone else know, or care. And to make a big deal by segregating yourself into a "female gamer" clique, I find that you're just asking for it.

People come on, I'm trying to look respectable and sophisticated for the snugglies that feel offended.

You can't just tell them to grow thicker skin, take jokes, and stop trying to be special, they might get emotionally unstable.

I jest, of course, but if you're reading that and find it offensive, then you should take a good look at yourself.

Linsey's my new hero.

While I partially agree with you, I don't think you're entirely correct in what you're saying with regards to how males approach females. When I join PUG vent channels for PvP or PvE, or a new guild's vent for the first time, there are several guys people who immediately draw attention to the fact that I'm a "female gamer" as soon as the word "hey" comes out of my mouth. When they give responses like that, it affects me on a comfort level. It's strange having guys give extra recognition and respect right off the bat to me just because I'm female. Most of these people tend to be in their teens, however; actually, it's kind of weirder then because you have 14 year old boys hitting on you O.o.

I also think there's that middle-ground, where more guys make lame, bad jokes about females in their presence, than there are actual creepy guys who like the attention of females. I'm fairly certain on this point because even though tons of guys have presented themselves stupidly upon introduction, very few have ever bothered to persue my attention on a creepy level. On average I'd say no more than 1-2 people per large guild. And only 3 people on the internet (2 GW, 1 elsewhere) have ever posed a real threat to my physical well-being.

On the flip side, I agree that some females (whether they are aware of it or not) set themselves up to get this kind of attention by pointint out the fact that they have breasts. In my old guild, a female started a cry-baby thread on our forums about how people jested at her "girly" signature (pink stuff). She said it hurt her feelings, and made her feel uncomfortable, and made all sorts of female-gender remarks. If anything, their personality is only further fueled by guys wanting to coddle the precious lone female in their guild by stroking her ego through gifts, company, compliments and shelter. It's pathetic. Those females need to get their validation elsewhere.

Agreed - I don't think they are serious... just stupid. They either need to get about 10 more years on their age, or a new repertoire of jokes.

Ventrilo. It's where almost all my problems come from -_-

As for those who are likely to reply, "if ventrilo is your problem, don't use it!" but do you honestly expect me to sacrifice my participation in a guild or team of people I mostly really like and enjoy? I have hope that most people are decent, which is why I continue to use that as a method of communication and participation.

Yeah, my wife plays GW as well (and she also has boobies ) and I've heard the same thing said, dont forget that female gamers, at least for GW style games, are still a minority and being able to share such a hobby is pretty awesome and personally I say "if you play together you stay together"
I've also seen the opposite with friends who' wives consider themselves WoWidows which has in at least one case led to a divorce.

As for the marketing, well, 50% of the population is female so losing out on that market is a big loss, I do fully agree that most marketeers are utterly clueless on female gamers but I've also noticed that the adage "a good game is a good game" does apply, ie a game does not need to be specifically tailored to a sex to be a success with said sex.

There's still a "social" bias among girls compared to guys which traditional games have lacked... although games have also been missing out on the social guys too. MMOs, Multiplayer insanity like Guitar Hero and Wii stuff on consoles, and the insanely succesful Sims are bringing them into the fold. Imagine if Cinema was purely comic book and sci-fi thrillers, and there were no romantic comedies or soulful relationship etc. movies. Or TV without soap operas and reality shows. That's where games have been and are only now moving away from it. Bonus points for MMO-type games which can provide both special effects-laden fantasy violence and human relationships at once.

I want to punch her in the face for trying to represent the female population. If you can get over the fact that you're a female gamer, other people will as well. The only problem a female gamer would have when playing games is a sudden on set of horrific period cramps, resulting in vomiting.

Also, Fallot, I have to agree with you. Gender, race and sexuality aren't big deals unless someone is idiotic enough to think they are. Danglies or jigglies don't matter if you do your job or whatever well.

You're right, that was worded a little more strongly than I'd hoped. People will still act like people and I should've considered and mentioned that.

I think this has become a bit of a cliche. Obviously, its the common sense (and correct) argument and you'd expect it to be repeated every time the topic is brought up. However I think the best course of action would be to not discuss this topic at all. What else could be surer proof that games are all-inclusive when nobody cares

There used to be a guy in my alliance who said that girls couldn't play games a very long time back. He said that I was probably a guy because, well, we've ABed together and not meaning to brag but I can play one hell of a mean ranger. The rest of the team (alliance group) said "Kai's a girl you know" and he said "nah, any girls who play MMOs always suck at it, kai has to be a guy."

There is one example, I have heard of plenty more (happening to other people as well) but I don't want to write a 5 page essay about it.

Naturally a male would have no trouble about misogyny on Guild Wars because unless there was a huge misunderstanding, a male would never be the target of misogyny.

But there is also the problem of those overfeminine girly girls who play MMOs... seriously, I just want to skin them with a spoon. I'm talking about the ones that cause drama because the guild cape doesn't have pink unicorns on it or because they want to have an e-relationship with the leader... who happens to be married IRL.

There are two extremes on the boundary here, the males who think that girls are inferior (I can name a few in this thread...) and the females who think they should get special treatment just because they're female.

Me? The only special treatment I ask for is that you refer to me as a "she" or a "her", thank you.

And Avarre, it's pretty hard to point out "good female warrior" players because Guild Wars is not a particularly social game, and neither am I a particularly social person. Also the only thing I do on GW is alliance battles or FoW, and in alliance battles it's hard to find a good player, let alone a good female warrior.

Besides the definition of "good" changes with where you play. I have met plenty of "good" warriors in FoW (example, ones who don't leeroy and suicide, ones who listen to the team, ones who know that you don't need a bonder and an obs flesh tank in FoW...) who are women.

Agreed. My stance on being a female who does happen to play games is this: I would like you to respect me as a fellow player. The problem arises when people say things like "Oh, you're a girl? You can't be a girl, girls suck at games" or choose to condescend. I acknowledge that girls can be terrible players, just as guys can be terrible players. But I don't enjoy being stereotyped just because someone happens to figure out that I'm a girl - and you guys, you wouldn't like to be stereotyped as a chauvinist either.

I get very, very irritated by girls who use the fact that they're female to siphon expensive stuff off guys. It's like a gendered version of the beggers who haunt various areas pleading for 100g when they could get it themselves. Drives me nuts. It's nice to know that there's another girl playing, but the fact that you have boobs does not make you entitled to everything in the game kthx.

Marketers probably need to realise that.