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Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief
VoR > SS, especially in PvP. SS is a minor annoyance, VoR is extremely dangerous.
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VoR vs SS
Arkantos
RiKio
Do the foes flee when damaged by VoR?
Johny bravo
SS triggers on every action so SS + parasitic bond shuts down melee for 20 seconds unless there is lots of hex removal. Also has AoE effect
VoD + Cover, while doing more damage on trigger, only lets melee build up adreniline or recharge their skills. They can the unleash after the 10 seconds is done. I like using watrels to cover as it makes them take damage regardless.
As for the Aoe effect while it is good in PvE it is hard to get it to trigger on multiple targets in PvP, unless you can get them in a choke points.
I like both skills, VoR is definatly better at caster shutdown and pretty much an elite form of backfire, while SS is better at melee shutdown. Each skill has its plusses and minuses but overall they are both very good think before you act tools.
I do agree with whoever said SS should be a mesmer skill, but thank god it isn't as my main character is a necro
VoD + Cover, while doing more damage on trigger, only lets melee build up adreniline or recharge their skills. They can the unleash after the 10 seconds is done. I like using watrels to cover as it makes them take damage regardless.
As for the Aoe effect while it is good in PvE it is hard to get it to trigger on multiple targets in PvP, unless you can get them in a choke points.
I like both skills, VoR is definatly better at caster shutdown and pretty much an elite form of backfire, while SS is better at melee shutdown. Each skill has its plusses and minuses but overall they are both very good think before you act tools.
I do agree with whoever said SS should be a mesmer skill, but thank god it isn't as my main character is a necro
gremlin
Its an interesting idea but will stick with SS since very few mobs spam skills like humans do.
But quite a few attack multiple targets with warrior and dervish skills which adds to the mass damage and chaos.
I tend to cast ss followed by barbs followed by Mark of pain then back to whatever has recharged usually barbs again.
First target is usually chosen wisely and then when I have cycled through the mob I come off autopilot and start choosing targets again.
If you have minions and or a barrage ranger or 2 it can get really messy for the mob very fast.
But quite a few attack multiple targets with warrior and dervish skills which adds to the mass damage and chaos.
I tend to cast ss followed by barbs followed by Mark of pain then back to whatever has recharged usually barbs again.
First target is usually chosen wisely and then when I have cycled through the mob I come off autopilot and start choosing targets again.
If you have minions and or a barrage ranger or 2 it can get really messy for the mob very fast.
Kikuta
Was playing a Sig of Illusions mes in RA (as usual) and had a rather joyous 30 seconds in one of the matches.
Revealed Hex scored Spiteful Spirit
Inspired Hex scored Visions of Regret
Already had Backfire and Insidious Parasite in my bar.
Good god, the damage to one player with everything at 16 Illusion was... monstrous!
Revealed Hex scored Spiteful Spirit
Inspired Hex scored Visions of Regret
Already had Backfire and Insidious Parasite in my bar.
Good god, the damage to one player with everything at 16 Illusion was... monstrous!
Spazzer
Like backfire, Visions of Regret has a long casting time and triggers Spirit Bond. Every time I have seen it used, it's been paired with backfire and used on the same target, so I just dump a single Spirit Bond and go back to catching Z's.
If you're not powerblocked or otherwise interrupted while casting Visions, you can bet that you will be watched when you decide to go for that Shatter Enchantment.
In the end, Pblock just does a better job of shutting down casters.
If you're not powerblocked or otherwise interrupted while casting Visions, you can bet that you will be watched when you decide to go for that Shatter Enchantment.
In the end, Pblock just does a better job of shutting down casters.
Painbringer
VOR hexes more than one target. It effects all skills used by target and it can be used to trigger [Cry of Pain] In PVE it was a needed change to the mesmer line. PVP it is a major frustration especially mixed with wastrals truth be told I could see a PVP nerf comming. But I hope they leave PVE alone.
Hollow Gein
LOL. After reading this thread yesterday, instead of trying to decide which is better, me and a Guildie decided to team-up with our respective classes. I was using a N/Mes SS Echo build and him a pure Mesmer with VoR, CoF, and other assorted nasty Dom skills, well, lets just say I love seeing all those numbers popping up. Truth be told, Arcane Echo FTW!!!
Magikarp
SS is moderate damage alone, and indeed, gets much stronger with spamming, such as AE, but VoR is big damage all the time, meaning dead targets.... faster.
also, SS does nothing if your target runs away (which SS will do), so far, AI doesnt seem to run from VoR.
also, SS does nothing if your target runs away (which SS will do), so far, AI doesnt seem to run from VoR.
Tyla
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Originally Posted by Tender Care
VoR in pvp= i'm not so dumb to use skills when i'm hexed with VoR, but at least i can attack
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Magikarp
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Originally Posted by Tyla
That's the thing. It's a psychological pressure skill that stops an enemy casting unless they really need to. Plus the fact that with Wastrel's Worry, they either cast and take damage or don't cast and take damage. Either way you have alot of pressure.
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"should i try my chain and potentially still kill my target? should i wait? should i.. AGGGHHGHGHGHG!!"
either way they're going to be ineffective, one being you disable their chain, the other being you keep them from attacking, possibly saving a life.
for every other class, its the same feeling, and VoR just makes it all more frustrating for those who have to fight us mezmarz
Tarkin
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Originally Posted by snaek
well...lets compare...
ss = 20s duration, 10s recharge, 35dmg every action vor = 10s duration, 20s recharge, 90dmg every skill how many actions will a monster do in 20s? vs how many skills a monster will use in 10s? then u have to wait for teh 20s downtime so they will be 10s of no vor meanwhile, an ss necro will be able to have 2 simultaneous ss' goin on (and im not even talkin bout an echo'd ss) |
Echo is for the weaks...
In the wonderfull world of all together foes 2 or 3 hexed SS foes makes a big diference... in the real world of panic and foes running all around i prefer visions...
And in the wonderfull world of all together foes... use a elem... they made a ubber best job...
SS never owns a monks... visions will... or you kown any monks prefer wanding for healing?
And to finish if recharge of VoR < 20... VoR = best skill in the game...
P A L P H R A M O N D
VoR is great for hitting a bunch of PvE casters, like in DoA. They all bunch up together and spam stuff for a few seconds. All told it deals a ton of damage. SS is better for melee mobs that have been well-aggroed.
isamu kurosawa
VoR > SS because it has a purple icon. Purple clearly owns.
Depends on the area really. SS shines in areas with mobs that stay together and spam/attack fast.
VoR does not cause scatter ebcause it creates a new hex per target rather than hit AoE. Also because it hits AoE you noly need the foes clustered as you cast it, so if they do split they still take damage. VoR can also be used to trigger skills like CoP.
Personally i see nothing wrong with running SS on a necro and taking a VoR mesmer with some other nice dom skills.
Depends on the area really. SS shines in areas with mobs that stay together and spam/attack fast.
VoR does not cause scatter ebcause it creates a new hex per target rather than hit AoE. Also because it hits AoE you noly need the foes clustered as you cast it, so if they do split they still take damage. VoR can also be used to trigger skills like CoP.
Personally i see nothing wrong with running SS on a necro and taking a VoR mesmer with some other nice dom skills.
snaek
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Originally Posted by Tarkin
Visions of Regret Elite Hex Spell. For 10 seconds, target foe and adjacent foes take 15...75 damage whenever they use a skill.
Echo is for the weaks... In the wonderfull world of all together foes 2 or 3 hexed SS foes makes a big diference... in the real world of panic and foes running all around i prefer visions... And in the wonderfull world of all together foes... use a elem... they made a ubber best job... SS never owns a monks... visions will... or you kown any monks prefer wanding for healing? And to finish if recharge of VoR < 20... VoR = best skill in the game... |
and monster monks actually do quite a bit of wanding
and vor is aoe...
so wut?
ss' dmg is aoe too
but still...ss goes on wars
and ur frontline takes care of monks
when was teh last time ur group went
"omg theres a war!! everyone attack it!!!!"
if ur frontline is targettin teh monster monk
and u cast vor on teh same target
either ur frontline is uselss and cant take em down fast nuff
or they take em down faster than vor will even trigger nuff to make its worth
Magikarp
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Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa
VoR > SS because it has a purple icon. Purple clearly owns.
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Originally Posted by snaek
monsters asume pve...
and monster monks actually do quite a bit of wanding and vor is aoe... so wut? ss' dmg is aoe too but still...ss goes on wars and ur frontline takes care of monks when was teh last time ur group went "omg theres a war!! everyone attack it!!!!" |
kostolomac
VoR is is officially the 2nd viable mesmer elite for pve.
VoR is imo better than SS because there is no scatter , and due to monsters being monsters the spam enough skills in 10 seconds to die twice , no need for echo. Also the icon is cooler than the SS'. VoR clearly wins
VoR is imo better than SS because there is no scatter , and due to monsters being monsters the spam enough skills in 10 seconds to die twice , no need for echo. Also the icon is cooler than the SS'. VoR clearly wins
Tarkin
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Originally Posted by snaek
monsters asume pve...
and monster monks actually do quite a bit of wanding and vor is aoe... so wut? ss' dmg is aoe too but still...ss goes on wars and ur frontline takes care of monks when was teh last time ur group went "omg theres a war!! everyone attack it!!!!" if ur frontline is targettin teh monster monk and u cast vor on teh same target either ur frontline is uselss and cant take em down fast nuff or they take em down faster than vor will even trigger nuff to make its worth |
In this modern times of faster killer machine teams...
repeat until area clear
{Fase 1: put together foes 10 seconds
Fase 2: nuke them to dead 5 seconds}
SS lose your valor...
how SS lose your valor? you crazy tarkin? druken? or something? for prof, factions the monks are weak they cant deal with SS, but in elona and gwen the monks and foes have some self heal and the monks are a lot better they can handle easy with SS.
I remember the time ppls first used SS necro for fow and it become a must, remember the rise of MM from 5 man farm in Furnace.
We all kwon the valor of SS one of greatest skill in this game...
But now if your team let a warrior come close to the casters, and dont have high armor, wards or some hex to protect or at last mimions (ppls think mimions are to attack mimions are the best defese of the game if they do some damage a lot better)... your team is weak...
Agree with lots of points with you... monks do a lot of wanding, And SS is the best to own any melle (remember the day a fast as light sin kill herself and another two warrior (all full of health) in less the impressive 3 seconds.
SS still in top 10 skills for pve but VoR is great for pvp and pve...
garethporlest18
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Originally Posted by Johny bravo
SS triggers on every action so SS + parasitic bond shuts down melee for 20 seconds unless there is lots of hex removal. Also has AoE effect
VoD + Cover, while doing more damage on trigger, only lets melee build up adreniline or recharge their skills. They can the unleash after the 10 seconds is done. I like using watrels to cover as it makes them take damage regardless. |
2. That cover you use is Empathy. If a melee keeps attacking to build adrenaline with Empathy on he's pretty silly. Then you spam Wastrels or another simple mesmer hex to cover Empathy. That shuts down melee to the teeth. VoR is a great skill to shut down pretty much anything.
Para Gone
i have a question about the skill mechanics of VoR that hopefully someone can answer.
does the damage trigger upon successful completion of a skill or is it applied immediately once the skill starts to cast?
ie: if an enemy caster is dazed and hexed with VoR and begins to cast, but is interrupted halfway through a spell, do they take damage from the hex or not?
EDIT: well after testing this in the GH, it appears that the damage triggers only after a successful complete cast. sadly, being interrupted while hexed with VoR causes no damage.
does the damage trigger upon successful completion of a skill or is it applied immediately once the skill starts to cast?
ie: if an enemy caster is dazed and hexed with VoR and begins to cast, but is interrupted halfway through a spell, do they take damage from the hex or not?
EDIT: well after testing this in the GH, it appears that the damage triggers only after a successful complete cast. sadly, being interrupted while hexed with VoR causes no damage.
Selket
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Originally Posted by Magikarp
it like diversion on a sin.
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Anyone who doesn't realize why diversion doesn't really do anything to an assassin is a really bad assassin.
VoR is pretty gimp all things considered, but so is SS, so whatever.
Esprit
Visions of Regret does more damage if a target is chain casting skills. For a Monk this is particularly unfortunate. If they had Spiteful Spirit, that damage can be ignored much longer than if they were trying to chain cast with VoR on them.
Like most people said, it depends on the situations. One is not always inherently better than the other.
Also, it took me a few posts to realize that you were talking about Visions of Regret and Spiteful Spirit. I didn't realize that people were that lazy to abbreviate their thread titles. Some people don't play Guild Wars for inordinate amounts of time to know all the abbreviations for skills.
Like most people said, it depends on the situations. One is not always inherently better than the other.
Also, it took me a few posts to realize that you were talking about Visions of Regret and Spiteful Spirit. I didn't realize that people were that lazy to abbreviate their thread titles. Some people don't play Guild Wars for inordinate amounts of time to know all the abbreviations for skills.
Striken7
VoR is like Backfire and Empathy combined (but it's cheaper to use then Backfire and does more damage then Empathy), which can hex multiple foes at once, and can then be covered again by Empathy to stop Adrenaline gain (either voluntarily or through death). Add in Wastrel's Worry for guaranteed damage.
3 skill slots filled, 5 to go (4 if your smart enough to bring a rez). Thats 3 skill slots that can shut down any other profession in the game, unless someone brings good hex removal, in which case you have 4 other skills still at your disposal.
By itself, its much better then SS, but lets not even start about the VoR Mesmer, Hex Necro combo that's even popping up in RA since this build became all the rage. I definitely see a PvP/PvE split coming for this one.
3 skill slots filled, 5 to go (4 if your smart enough to bring a rez). Thats 3 skill slots that can shut down any other profession in the game, unless someone brings good hex removal, in which case you have 4 other skills still at your disposal.
By itself, its much better then SS, but lets not even start about the VoR Mesmer, Hex Necro combo that's even popping up in RA since this build became all the rage. I definitely see a PvP/PvE split coming for this one.
AKB48
Loz, this is really funny: even thought I think most people knows the difference between VoR and SS, they still pointlessly put their definitions up here over and over again.
/close
/close
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by AKB48
Loz, this is really funny: even thought I think most people knows the difference between VoR and SS, they still pointlessly put their definitions up here over and over again.
/close |
snaek
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Originally Posted by Magikarp
im not understanding your logic seeing as monster melee still use attack skills, meaning VoR still deals its damage.
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Magikarp
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Originally Posted by snaek
# of auto-attacks > # of skills used ???
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Originally Posted by Selket
Anyone who puts diversion on a sin while they're not actively using their chain is a really bad mesmer.
Anyone who doesn't realize why diversion doesn't really do anything to an assassin is a really bad assassin. VoR is pretty gimp all things considered, but so is SS, so whatever. |
SS is annoying in pvp, VoR is deadly.
SS is nice in pve when you spam it, VoR is deadly the first time you cast it.
imo, take both, if you cant, take VoR over SS.
draxynnic
Haven't done a scientific study, but my gut feeling is that SS will still come out on top, especially when combined with Arcane Echo and Reckless Haste (another misplaced Mesmer skill, but whatever) and the rest of the stereotypical SS bar.
VoR is a worthy competitor, however, and in my opinion at least the VoR mesmer is more fun than the SS necro. Still, taking one of each is certainly an option...
VoR is a worthy competitor, however, and in my opinion at least the VoR mesmer is more fun than the SS necro. Still, taking one of each is certainly an option...
Shasgaliel
I wanted to do something weird so I run a small test. I did 3 pongmei valley vanquishes (which very fast and has more than one type of enemies). I took standard SS necro in one, then Vor mesmer in the other and then both. All other members were not changed. I have to say with simple SS it went much faster and more efficient since my necro was able to put second SS already in the half of the Vor recharge time. Third scenario did not work out because I had to take out of the other heroes who was apparently doing more damage than one of those two so the third attempt was the least successful of the two. Of course it may differ for various places and missions and in pvp it will be different as well but I would always chose SS over Vor in pve. I am quite surprised that nobody mentioned the different recharge times so far.... Of course my mesmer build might have sucked as well which might highly influenced the whole test but who cares we are not in the university and this is just one more observation added to the pool.
gerlin
Well i think its logical that in HM SS will do more damage. Monsters don't tend to chain skills, especially when they have SS / VoS cast on them. A monster monk with backfire will use skills much or scares then without it. Also in pve casters attack more then they cast (looks at 55ing in bergen.), because they cast faster and attack faster they do i more often but attacking will take most time since 2 sec spells are cast way faster.
Magikarp
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Originally Posted by gerlin
Well i think its logical that in HM SS will do more damage. Monsters don't tend to chain skills, especially when they have SS / VoS cast on them. A monster monk with backfire will use skills much or scares then without it. Also in pve casters attack more then they cast (looks at 55ing in bergen.), because they cast faster and attack faster they do i more often but attacking will take most time since 2 sec spells are cast way faster.
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Selket
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Originally Posted by Magikarp
Diversion is a pain for all classes, in any scenario, and i was simply using that subject as an example. whether or not its considered "good" playing wasn't the point, and what was the point was that VoR serves as an equal, if not more dominant form of pressure.
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Oh, okay. I wish that made sense.
Magikarp
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Originally Posted by Selket
Its a pain for the one class that can get rid of it at the cost of 5 energy and no other detriment?
Oh, okay. I wish that made sense. |
snaek
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Originally Posted by Magikarp
in HM monsters attack faster and have more energy, meaning they spam more and attack more. adren users fire off skills left and right, and most melee blow off their chains as soon as they get to you, meaning VoR still deals damage.
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its a question of which one does more...ss or vor
and overall, i'm sure u'll find that ss does more dmg
sure vor hits harder
but ss is -reliably- upkeep'd and -reliably- triggers more times
Magikarp
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Originally Posted by snaek
i never once said that vor doesnt deal dmg
its a question of which one does more...ss or vor and overall, i'm sure u'll find that ss does more dmg sure vor hits harder but ss is -reliably- upkeep'd and -reliably- triggers more times |
cgruber
Dual Visions of Regret mesmers in pvp is pure win.