Thoughts on GW2 and forums

Official forums are never any good, for they often try to erase anything that could be considered negative promotion. Players need places where they can feel that nobody infringes on them giving their honest opinion no matter what it is. An official fansite has to side with ArenaNet, an independent fansite can always be neutral.

That is also good for ArenaNet because if anything really goes wrong with the game, they can see the honest reaction of the players and act accordingly. If an official site is always suppressing inconvenient opinions, the developer might never know the full extent of the problem, which in turn is bad for the game.

Yes. I'd love for there to be an official forum. Not for a lot of the reasons you said, but it has unique benefits.

Rather than the official wiki as a way of interacting with ANet employees/important figures, a method which I've always found inconvenient and annoying, an official forum would allow us to interact and get to know them without them having to filter through dozens of fansites.

Also, I think eliminating fansites is a bad idea. If, right now, an official wiki opened up, I can almost guarantee there would be a war over which of the fansites we're all from. If we all started fresh on GW2 I think it'd be better.

If my post doesn't make sense it's because I'm up at 3:00 a.m.

Official Forum would be bad for the following reasons;

1) It would be hosted and run by ANet. This is bad because it would take staff away from other areas, and make ANet even more stretched.

2) It would remove any semblance of 'freedom of speech'. With ANet running the forums, they would simply ban and delete anything they didn't want there.

3) Similar to 2, any criticism of the game of any kind would most likely get deleted. This happens on other official forums, as the company don't want everyone reading how bad their game is.

And finally,

It would bring in all the complete IDIOTS from forums such as GWO, and all the morons who tend to flock to official forums to have their say, regardless of the fact that it's completely stupid. I prefer guru because the mods do a good job of keeping the discussions at least partially intelligent, by deleting brainless posts. This wouldn't happen on an 'official' forum if it was something 'nice' about GW/ANet.

That, and look at the 'official' wiki. Complete fail.

Then pretty soon A.Net would meet the same end Funcom has met. They kept banning people and threads that were about bugs and criticism.

Actually moderators only seem to delete posts that go against the threads rules. I have not once seen a post after it has been deleted.

And i believe this thread is discussing Guru vs Official GW forum. We really don't care about other forums in which you say are run by kids. The fact is that Guru is 10x better than any official GW Forum could ever be.

The ONLY benefit could be that ANet MIGHT be more prone to listen to the suggestions of the people, but probably not.

The downside is that Freedom of speech would be not allowed at all in an official forum. Ive seen it a hundred times in official forums from other games. When someone expresses a negative opinion or an exploit to the game, you can expect to see the post for all of 10 seconds before it is made to disappear.

Linking your account credentials (account name and pass) would just open up more vulnerability to account theft.
Lets say the official forum url was "www.officialGWforum.com", then some hacker creates a url called "www.officialGWforum.net" --- now that hacker will have the account name and password to everybody who makes the mistake of going to the wrong site to post.

I am not saying that we are free to post anything we want here in Guru, but it is definitely not as rigid as an official forum would be.

Here's a link to a discussion about ANet and forums from two weeks ago http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10326873

Not a good idea IMO, it would more than likely end up like a "Used To Be Popular FPS" Official Forum, where ANYTHING negative about their product will be deleted.

If you want to make a suggestion to Anet directly, guru isn't the place for it. In the very best of circumstances your post will be read by Regina or one of her minions. If you want to get past this outer defense, use one of the official suggestions pages on the official wiki. Better yet, track down an Anet developer at a convention and convey your suggestions to them in person.

I should have clarified the banning situation a bit more. You'd only get temp/perma banned in each other based on what you did (a perma ban in forum may or may not result in a ban*of any calibur* to be implemented, but a perma ban in the game would mean a ban on the forum *reasoning/ranting/QQing/etc about the ban would be then forced to go to the support*).

One of the reasons why I suggested a volunteer moderators would be so that ANet takes the better mods from fan-forums, if they *the mods from fan-forums* wanted, and have them as mods. Also, to do the same for the better contributors of the fan-forums.

Most official forums are run by the staff directly, although there would be monitoring and control by the staff (which will most likely end up being support) it would still be mildly controlled by volunteer fans who would do a good job. For those that go out of line, their moderator status would be removed.

In other words, ANet would have control of the site, but the management of posts and threads would be by moderators (and the bans given by ANet when contacted by the moderators).

The contact was another reason for an Official Forum that I found little need to put in because of the current Official Wiki and that in my OP, I only stated the reasons for/against that came to mind while writing. While this thread is up, I will be taking ideas, pros and cons, for a official wiki, and will make a suggestion thread.

The elimination of fan-sites would be done by the whims of those that runs such sites. Most won't be removed immediately, in fact none probably will, but in time, there will be less activeness and less need for those fan-sites and would then be becoming a waste of money (as subscribers won't be around as much, and with them, the fan-site's money other then ads).

My thoughts for this is primarily a GW2 forum, but a GW1 forum would be good for people to get used to a new community within the GW playerbase, get used to new formatting, and most importantly, act as a demo for the GW2 forum.

1)Hosted, yes, ran by, not really. Volunteer Moderators, it would then be like guru, gwo, and other fan-based forums.

2. Moderators in guru and other fan-forums do the same thing. I just had to make a statement to get this thread back open because of why it was closed.

3. That would be reasonable, and in most cases, probably is inacted by a troll. Such statements would need proof and back-up, without which, would be a rant and should be removed anyways.

extra: I have noted that GWO is much more intelligent then the guru community overall, and the complete opposite of what you said is said on GWO *of course*, and both wikis. To prevent the morons who flock to official forums, only those who play the game, and therefore deserve a say, will be able to (and for those wanting to test it, they would get a trial forum account, availible once per email or something and only lasts like 10 hours, needs some thought, but the point of the account linkage would be to prevent your trolling accounts).

It would make ANet as prone to listening as on wiki, by theory, if not more. The Freedom of Speech would depend on how strict ANet wants to be. Seeing how they have not made any move against people on guru, such as temp banning gw accounts *which they can do, although unjustly* they are not too strict, and may or may not allow freedom of speech. It is impossible to tell.

The same issue came up, but not with the url. What I propose now, is that the account name of the two are the same, but the pass is not saved. This can still lead to a problem with what you say, so I will think about a way around that (the only thing I can think of now, other then a link on the wiki, official site, and in the game, is to fix the impossible; stupidity).

Again, this depends on how strict ANet will be, and if they leave it to moderators to monitor the forum (and only monitor the mod's behavior in terms of managing the site *not including responding to people*).

You should read before posting. I explicitly said that this is not a suggestion, but me wanting to know other's opinions on a official forum. Once I have enough feedback, I will make a suggestion post, and either email ANet (which may mean it gets tossed out) or post on Linsey's page.

And I would love to track an ANet developer at a convention, but time, location, and money make conventions impossible for me.


Edit: Responses to my thread on GWO and my responses to them (to prevent me having to repeat myself and to give more discussion)

Thank you for adding a con that I did not know. However, that can be monitored and if a problem with a mod arises, Anet can "demote" the moderator. Simple solution to take action when something starts to get out of hand.

That is a reason for the need of a fan-forum, I realize that, but it is still not a false assumption, no assumption is false until what the assumption is about either happens or the chance for it to happen has passed.

The main advantage would be that the gw.com would advertise it directly and it would reduce the need to create fan-forums (since they didn't make an Official Forum at the start of prophecies, fan-sites such as GWO and guru are probably not going to fall even after everyone or nearly everyone also joins the Official Forum, for various reasons).

The biggest reason for making an Official Forum now would be as a test for a GW2 official forum. Also, there was a fan-based wiki and they made an official wiki, and then a wiki for GW2, it is not too out of place for an official forum for GW1 to be made, then one for GW2.

With taking ideas from the existing forums for setting up, then taking moderators that are volunteers, such as the ones that are moderators for the existing forums, it won't be such a huge mess.

1. It does cost money, but because of the money from ads and the pals, it gains money. Either way, the overall is a gain, but without the ads or pals, it would cost money (which is where that argument came from). We basically agree on this because this would then support ANet and give them more money, which in turn would improve resources for ANet.

2. People, like in game and even on the forums, would be ignorable, so if there are people you don't like because of the discussion they bring, ignore them and don't comment on comments about them. A (rather annoyingly repeated) solution for those you don't like. And the community would be the biggest problem, however, an official forum would be a little closer to the game playerbase (so suggestions would get a bigger chunk of the pie then just one group within the community).

3. Simplicity after it is done, with fewer places to go to (because hopefully an official forum would replace the not-so-popular fan-forums and maybe some popular fan-forums), it would help ANet know what the community as a bigger whole wants (not everyone will be on the official forums, that is obvious, but a bigger amount would be, and that would make it easier to track what people would want in comparison to what ANet thinks people want or what one group wants.

4. Doesn't make an Official Forum a bad idea.

5. If someone deserves a ban in the forum, it is because they are behaving incorrectly, and therefore, it can be surmised that they behave incorrectly in game, therefore, not harsh. The types of banning that goes to both depends on why they were banned. Someone banned in the game for a name won't get banned in the forum for example.

1. No, there is no need for a fan-based forum, there is no need for an official forum, there isn't a need for GW. That argument fails as logic for a reason to have a fan-based forum but not an official forum.

2. It wouldn't be forcing them. They would have the choice whether to use the forum or not, an official forum would reduce the need for fan-based forums, which would in turn mean those who want to use forums to be more likely to use the official forum. There will always be fan-based forums out there, that is a fact, but there doesn't have to be a need for fan-based forums in order for there to be a forum on a game.

5. For this reason, the password will have to be different. It would only be linked via account name, and a password (not stored) to verify. The password would just be linked to confirm the account, then removed from the forum. Simple answer.

I don't see how an official forum fails, or how it can work for a jail, etc.

Trolls won't happen as much due to the punishments. Some things, such as trolls, can lead to an easier way to temp ban people with inappropriate behavior from the game. What you are saying will lead to a betterment of the game for the trolls. And people will always have to link accounts so a random forum account cannot be made on the spot.

Although you are pro-official forum, I must make some corrections.
1) Not all mods from the staff will be nice, they will eventually lose patience because of people ripping on Anet and its staff (Izzy is a prime example). This is why volunteer moderators would be beneficial, other then having to pay.
2)See Sir Jack's post
3) Pals would not be needed, but still used, ads would be gone, sig restrictions should be put still.
4)There is a different way of thinking, but that kind of forum would be discrimination, and there are plenty of europeans I like discussing with on the forum.

Although I have not beed on any other game forums, I will make the assumption that it is because the mods are staff members (most likely support). That is a bad idea, and why I support volunteer moderators.

For this reason you mention, I suggest ANet monitoring the moderators, that is, if volunteers. Also, for ANet to make the final bans (and therefore, the bans would be legible and with good reason). Moderators would suggest a ban and reason. However, closing/deletion of threads/posts would be left to the moderator, and if a moderator starts behaving wrongly (over deleting/closing, acting like a jerk), the moderator status would be removed and another candidate take his/her place.

Lazy.

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How they decide to run an official forum is up to them, and since I've never really used one to great lengths, I can't say much on the pros and cons of the system itself.

An official forum isn't necessary at this point, although it might be a great asset. If ANet was to put an official forum up for GW at all, I'd say it'd be best used when GW2 Beta comes out in order to address any issues of the game and such. Once GW2 is released, ANet can then decide how long after that an official forum would be necessary.

Even if official forum moderators were "volunteers" they would be bound by the guidelines set by ANet. So they would be forced to follow these guidelines. Like
"thou shalt not speak ill of Guild Wars"
"thou shalt not expose weakness of guild wars"
"thou shalt not speak opinion of guild wars that may influence others against the game"
If any of these rules are broken, ANet requires the "volunteer" moderators to act accordingly and delete said posts/threads.

Just wanted to point out that comparing the forum issue to the wiki issue is apples and oranges. The Official Wiki happened due to the licensing restrictions of the original wiki.

When ArenaNet offered free server space in return for in-game link, it was discovered that wiki would have needed to get permission from everyone who had so much as added a comma to the content before they could allow an association with a commercial enterprise.

If you search the wiki forum you should be able to find the old thread where it was all discussed.

As to the need or desire for an ArenaNet forum, I see no benefit to either ArenaNet or the community.

1. Any volunteer moderation would need to operate in the same manner as that of guru, but as it would legally be ArenaNet's responsibility, they would still need a full-time salaried position for oversight -if not several. Ask our admins how many hours a day they spend running the show.

2. Moderators - whether paid or volunteer - would still garner the same complaints of favoritism and being power-mad. It's part of the forum poster mindset. More problems for ArenaNet.

3. An official forum would not give posters any better contact with developers, who are already spending as much time as they desire interacting with the community. But as the posters would perceive it as better contact, they would have more complaints.

4. Stop comparing what pay-to-play games with much larger budgets are doing with what is feasible for ArenaNet to do.

I want ArenaNet to put all the money they can into game development and as little as possible into bells and whistles on their website. I seldom visit their website (except for Xunlai Tournament predictions) and get all my news through guru and the wiki.

Again, that depends on how strict ANet is. Imo, a good company should allow complaints and issues with the game if they are backed up. Hopefully, ANet would agree, at least to a degree.

1. That was my point, but it would need less people from ANet to watch over the mods then it would need mods to watch over everyone else. What I think would be best for an Official Forum would be a form of bureaucracy.

2. That is the same with fan-forums though, so this cannot be used as an argument against an Official Forum, it is something to use against forums in general, in fact, in any form of high status and power.

3. It could give them a little more connection then guru (say, to the limit of wiki pages, which, of those I go to, are replied to whenever the dev feels like replying). Of what I've noticed, few ANet staff actually have a guru, or whatever forum, account. This prevents interaction while the wiki does not. atm, the wikis are a better way to get in touch with devs, not a forum, and a wiki is not meant to be a forum. Only discussion on a wiki would be that of deciding what goes where on the site and the credibility of things.

4. I'm not, others are. And if you mean it is not feasible due to money. The subscribers would be the answer to that. As it stands, it can become feasible to make an official forum.

Through the payed subscription *or donations, whichever you wish to call it*, ANet can actually gain money from the Official Forum, therefore your last comment is invalid.

1. ANet doesn't currently wastes resources doing it, so what's the point if other people are already doing it?

2. Happens in all forums, Darcy wasn't pointing out an argument.

3. You answered yourself in your first sentence.

4. Many, MANY people joined this game because there aren't monthly fees to be paid for. That's just another bussiness model that nothing has to do with ANet's vision.

If there was such official forum, your forum account and game account would have to be independent from eachother, or at least to a degree where you can be banned from forums for in-game actions but you can't be banned from game from forum actions. Just like in Y!PP (at least from what I remember).

Just would take more server space that needs to be maintained.

PS. Sorry any miss spellings.

This isn't a thread for discussing how Guru moderates. Most of you don't know how we moderate anyway.

Most people aren't me. But I agree, mod discussion isn't the topic. How terrible an official forum would be, IS.

As people have mentioned, ANet would be either forced to hire people to moderate, or use volunteers. I guarantee that volunteer mods for an official forum would end badly, as they would consider themselves above everyone else, and in a way 'untouchable', so could potentially abuse the power they were given.

Look at all the QQ we have, Anet would be flooded with a lot of b!tchy little girls complaining about every thing from the color of there armor to the price of dyes, it's better this way they can ignore all the BS and just focus on what the community is talking about, when Gaile was still around she only posted in topics that were important, if they had a forum she would have to spent all day looking through crap.

Please... try to stay on topic. Also, I merged with the other thread we had 10 days ago on this.

If you have issues or concerns about Guru that you would like to bring up to me, please feel free to PM me and I am more then happy to explore and pinpoint any problems you feel that need to be addressed.

I do in this thread. And I disagree completely with the idea that this thread went off topic. One of the major concerns with an official forum would be censorship. Anet would filter out a lot of the criticism that it can't answer. Many people are relating various fan forums that do similar things and making comparisons. Thus perhaps there wouldn't be that much difference and an official forum should be established.