Assassin's Underatted?

OMG .... i'm so in favor of this thread.

i too am also sick and tired of people saying sins are a flawed concept.
well you know what, i think all you people out there that think this have a flawed thought pattern. LEARN HOW TO ADAPT to a new game/battle tactic, to all those who hate shadowstepping.

instagibbing sins?!!? --- ummm .... how bout a warrior kd'ing you and output dmg of 100+ dmg per hit with IAS ... hmmmm im pretty sure they kill roughly around the same speed as a sin does.

i could go on but ill keep brief for now until i fell i need to write more (actually im going to go watch heroes)

and yes, sins are pretty much the most fun chars to use imo.

Sins are fine. They can top a Warrior's armor and damage with a proper setup in PvE. And in PvP a well played Assassin can take a tiny opening in his opponents defenses and make waste of his/her target in seconds. People grab the assumption that the class itself is bad because so many of the people playing them are bad, rushing in and being careless, using bad builds, ect.

EDIT: Perhaps not outright beat a Warrior's damage, but they are pretty much neck and neck in that area, for PvE anyways. In PvP it's all about spiking and hindering your opponent the getting the heck out of the area before said person even has sufficient time to react. And Assassins are quite good at that, if someone outright tells you that Assassins are bad, tell the person that they have yet to see a real one. The name Assassin speaks for itself. And although they may function differently in PvE, that does NOT make them bad, or inferior, or a "bad idea".

IMO, a sin can be a usefull character in both pve or pvp enviroments if imbued in correct team builds. In my ideia, a sin is an assault character: whith assault i mean that the sins are made to drop out an enemy whith very fast attack chains and they rely very much of the sucess of that chain and in their monks if the chain fails to strike down the enemy, or if being pressured in some way.

Maybe i'm completely wrong about the ideia of sin that i just described but 1 thing I got for granted: sins are not the ideal chars to do the so called "Tanking". Imo, when someone think in playing sin, it should be better thinking in attack chains able to strike down enemys very fast rather then tanking, because if that person wanna be a meat shield then just chose warrior or dervish.

Anyway, the assault sin ideia should be attached to the ideia of a melle suporter like, for instance a order necro or dervish or a suport rit with strengh and honor, Ancestor rage, splinter or even sunderingweapon. The ideia is to create dmg in form of a spike in order to strike down enemys. However, this ideia would be best suited, imo, for pve since mobs wont realise the "sneaky" (but devastating) sin attack movements. In pvp environments, all builds that give a surprise effect can be very effective though it could be somehow implemented the assault character ideia, but i'm not sure of this....


Ah well... i mean... all characters should have their skills ballanced, at least its that the principles of the balanced characters which (should) caractherize Guildwars. And if so, maybe, i repeat: MAYBE, the trully potential of sin havent been discovered yet.

Thats all my opinion i might be wrong... :P

P.S.: I belive every profession have his place in pve or pvp, we just need to discover the apropriete build of the character itself and the team build in wich that character is inserted. Maybe a naive belive, but was that belive that made me play Guild Wars!

assassins are definitely underrated, all this talk about them being weak! i have completed factions, prophecies and EOTN on my Sin and have almost completed nightfall. ive had no problems with them so far

IMO sins are fine (my favourite proffesion actually), but i wouldn't use it for HA or GvG, no, no and definetely not. Sins are a great for pve, awesome fun in ab, aggresive in ra, but other than that no, with the types of team builds out today, a sin is more of a liability in top end pvp such as GvG and HA... Even when used properly, it is far more reliable to have a warrior or derv.

(thinks about the good ol days when sins instagibbed *curses anet*)

i am slowly playing through all of the professions in Guild wars and i have spent a lot of time on my assassin. I find that they are fun to play and are useful... however before i had my sin and still now every time i get to some serious pve i never like to bring a pug assassin there just nubs in general. When i created my sin i found it very hard to keep myself alive at first. lucky sin tomes are cheap and i bought a ton to better test the assassin profession. I found that if you play well you can quickly spike a single target and then shadowstep out to safety I found that using Assassins promise and Shadow fang is a very good way to quickly repeat a spike. Making it possible to quickly kill a number of foes.

I found the assassin profession fun..... but not one of my favourite professions. I find that dervs are a better answer to assassins both can deliver fast spikes but at least the derv can provide tankage when the assassin can not. I would never choose to h/h with a assassin but i may consider using him when pve'ing with friends.


on the pvp side assassins can be godlike but can be pretty crappy without any healer support at the end of the day it depends on who’s using the assassin. but in conclusion i dnt like them because there a utility and when im H/H the player is not as effective as a utility profession.

and btw sins are overatted i mean srsly overatted as soon as a nub goes on a sin and kills somthing fast he instatly belives hes leet.

This is a true story happend 3 days ago a sin randomly invited me when i was selling Z keys. He invited me i accepted and he took me to Isle of the nameless. Before i could type wtf do u want? he goes Look! 3 hits!1111 he runs to the 60 armor dummy and kills it in about 1 chain of attack (about 8 hits ) and goes look good no? want a 1v1? i just spawned out saying " try it on the 100 one ^.~"

That’s the end of the 'flaming' ur getting from me

btw dude srsly try modesty sometime....... you might like it you kinda do sound like the little random sin that invited me.......

Quote: Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman

idk if im just naturally good at sins, but I hardly ever have problems in pve and i almost excell above any party im in in pvp. ^ what im talking about

i'm one of those people who initially thought sins have great potential, so i look in pretty deeply into their playstyles and abilities. unfortunately, i've come to the same conclusion: sins are generally not worth playing in any respectable level because they are flawed conceptually.

contrary to popular belief, assassins have three general functions:

1. straight spike
2. constant recharging combo for pressure
3. abuse shadowstepping to gain massive mobility/position advantages

the three playstyles generally have some overlap.

initially many people thought sins were a great addition. they were great at causing havoc against players who just press c-space and monks who push redbars up by watching the team window. eventually, people smartened up and began to punish the assassins as they try to attack, and assassin are easily punished. their low armor and fragile attack chains often meant that they would either: a) wait around for an opening, which won't appear, or b) try to spike and get raped, because the other team is prepared for it.

eventually by the end of the factions era (around the time of the GWFC), assassins were relegated purely for option 3, and the only reason they are used because the high cost of AoD made it unwieldy for warriors (not to mention, warriors didn't have any way to maintain adrenaline back then), and casters were limited by their need for elite energy management (and the lack of an easy deep wound). even this playstyle, popularized by The Last Pride [EvIL] exploded. just look what [iQ] did to them in the GWFC semifinals and you'll know what i mean.

options 1 and 2 made a comeback in nightfall when izzy stupidly decided to buff them. the result was an absolute mess in every level of pvp, and he was eventually forced to slowly dial back assassin spike power. now assassins are good in only two areas: alliance battles, where the players are still very bad and the large open spaces greatly favours shadowstepping; and pve, where pve only skills makes them stupidly good. in every other area, assassins are eclipsed by warriors and dervishes. warriors can pressure well and spike just as hard, while dervishes just did more damage and aren't nearly as fragile.

assassins are still great for beginners because of their "high floor", meaning their acceptable effectiveness is very easy to reach. consequently, they also have a "low ceiling", meaning that significantly greater player skill won't make any difference. putting me and chiizu on shock axes and he'll outperform me every time. put us on the same assassin builds and our performance will be nearly identical.

please understand i have nothing against assassins. i love playing them, because given the correct build they are insanely fun to play. however, they are pretty bad for any competitive environment. many of you will disagree, but you'll all realize that this is the truth once you get better. i thought the same way when i just started too.

Assassins are great in pve and AB.

Every where else there flawed and arent really worth playing.

I've spent allot of time on my assassin,and enjoy it,but they just dont compare to other melee professions in pvp.
Sin=pve preasure and farming prof,not much more.
There fun,and make big numbers come up in random brainless pve mobs,sadly with out a rework they will never fit in any form of pvp other then RA/HB(does that count as pvp?).

Ending note from me Assassins are fun to play but Dervs/Warriors can be great for pressure and not nearly as 'flimsy' as an assassin which is why Pugs are cautious of accepting sins.

Quote: Originally Posted by wind fire and ice

form of pvp other then RA/HB(does that count as pvp?). It tends to be idiot V noob V me (which is a hybird of the two )

Quote: Originally Posted by Luminarus

The problem with sins is that they are a flawed concept. Since you dont want just flames etc ill explain why.

Firstly in pvp.
The assassin is not made for the front line. Its low armor, low auto attack damage and lack of serious survival skills/IAS make this evident. Therefore it cannot replace a warrior for frontline pressure. So what is a sin meant to do? Spike a target hard and quick to death, right? There are two problems with this. Firstly if it can do it effectively, its overpowered. Anything that can without skill, and in less the 5 seconds (solo) drop a character from full hp to 0 is overpowered. Therefore fast kill chains have to be balanced such that they cant always instantly kill. But now the sin cant pressure, and cant effectively spike, so its essentially a warrior that cant pressure between spikes? Tell my, why run an ineffectve option?

The other common option choices are short recharge low damage spikes... problem being need to stay in the frontline which is not where the sin is meant to be. So the problem in pvp is that the class concept is either overpowered or not as good as other options.

In low end areas, sure they are gods but thats only because low end doesnt have the organisation to defend against one. On a side not, also note that a sins attack chain is highly fragile, block/interupt/miss one skill and ur spike is gone. In pvp, that means 1 savage shot, steam etc and ur useless until u recharge. You cant change and spike with the rest of ur combo.

In PVE no argument sins work. Moebius Deathblossom has arguably one of the most potent melee damage, and is cool. Critical Agility allows the sin to stay in the front line to spam attacks. But in pve, the sin 'spike' doesnt work because things have to much hp to die most of the time.

Please dont assume I am a sin hater. I love sins, but having played them and other classes, in most pvp situations a war/derv/thumper is a better option, and in most pve situations, well they work fine, and I wouldnt necessarily want a different option, but the arent irreplaceable.

Finally, in pve and pvp a sin is all about pressing 1-2-3-4-5 (or variations of this), there is no such thing as a "good" sin. There is noob sins, and then there are people that arent idiots. If ur the latter ur a "good" sin. The constant nerfs don't help either. Btw, it's your, not ur.

I think the sin is more a victim of the initial design philosophy vs what GW has evolved into. Since Sins were among the first of new classes introduced via expansion, the game designers would have a very hard time foreseeing the impact of what the class's concept would bring to game balance. I don't blame them for introducing sins to the game, since the core classes lacked a rogue arch-type. Having been a WoW veteran who raided high-end with a rogue, experiencing the volume of rogues on a server is enough to indicate that there is a high demand for that kind of arch-type in any RPG style game.

I agree that the class is very fun to play, strong in PvE and low end PvP, but the sin's concept just does not mesh well with high end PvP balance. The concept of instagibbing is either overpowered or useless, and there really is no middle ground for it to be considered balance. I also think shadowstepping was poorly implemented, and could have been improved upon. The dagger system, while strong in PvE due to MS/DB, suddenly has a weakness in high-end play due to skill and attack disruptions, and lack of tactical play like target switching or spike-feinting. The list goes on and on.

Do take note, most people who bash sins are not bashing them because they hate them from lack of skill or player stereotyping, but more because of the class's inability to be an integral part of a HA or GvG team due to their flaws in the current PvP system.

The WoW rogue has evolved a great deal since release, and most who comment on them here do not keep up with current WoW news either. Its a shame ANET hasn't been giving sins the same quality of love to be a respected class in this game.

Warriors and Dervs do it better.

The only thing I would run an Assassin for now is Shattering Assault; and even that's debatable.

Warriors have an extra powerful Bull's Strike, consistent DPS accompanied with both an IAS and an IMS and extremely powerful utility, including Bull's.

Dervs have Wounding Strike, the most powerful weapon in the game, the ability to stack both an IMS and an IAS.

Assassins have limited ways of applying deep wound, and if they try it's incredibly predictable. 5 second chains are easy to break when the chain is over. They have next to no utility without popping into their secondary profession, and their spikes come roughly every 20 seconds. Shadowsteps were only used on Dervs and Warriors in this time too, and even that was a flawed mechanic which had been rightfully hit.

However, that's speaking from a PvP perspective.


In PvE, Assassins are major competitors in the DPS game.

Quote: Originally Posted by Moriz

I mostly agree w/the OP & some of the points in above responses. My 2 cents: With the right build a 'sin can do things no warrior can do consistantly, for example: Assassin's Remedy + Golden Fox Strike + Wild Strike and/or Golden Fang + dual(s) and/or anything else (get creative), provides a consistant, highly repeatable, near-unblockable source of damage on-demand, whereas a warrior must build adrenaline (and lose adrenaline to remove defensive stances [Wild Blow]). The tradeoff being that sins shouldn't frontline because they can't really pressure without skills & have lower armor.

Saying 'sins are a flawed concept because of their inherent attack mechanics, spotty effectiveness, or manueverability, is kind of ridiculous to me, and goes hand-in-hand w/people saying that 'sins take no skill to use... 'sins ARE NOT a flawed concept simply BECAUSE they DO take skill to use effectively. Warrior = frontline c-space & mash adren skills as they recharge. Assasin = hang back, observe the battle, pick out a target when you KNOW you can land a full chain.... ANYONE with half a brain can EASILY counter a 'sin, it's up to the 'sin player's skill to outhink & bypass those counters.

Their potential offensive capabilities & manueverability balance their low defense ("the best defense is a strong offense"), especially in RA/TA/AB/small fights.

Sins are not the only class that can deal insane spikes/outright kill in a few seconds; elementalists & mesmers for example can do the same but from a distance, without worrying about block stances and while also having more easily accessible skills to deal w/enchantments. The difference w/sins is that they have shadowsteps, which should be assassin-primary ONLY skills, as they are 'sins greatest tool & are too imbalanced with other classes (hence the shadowstep nerfs, mostly aimed at W/A, D/A, & A/D - speaking of A/D, the main problem in my mind is due to the ridiculous imba-AoE-damage inherent to scythes).

As far as high level PvP, GvG/HA/etc, I don't have much personal experience other than running Shat Assault in GvG (in which I was a great assest & found myself being targetted constantly), but would imagine that one 'sin on a team providing a solid spike every X seconds would either: A) provide decent enough damage to a 2ndary target while the rest of the team spikes another (effectively hiding the 'main' spike), so the opposing team's monk is forced to choose who to heal/prot (can't effectively heal everyone), B) assist in team spike, as in stripping defense (stances/enchants) or providing insane damage on primary target, hopefully guaranteeing a kill, or C) prove to be a general asset/nuisance w/shadow steps/manueverability plus high damage, to the point of disrupting the flow of battle enough to take the opposing team off guard & not know what to expect.

Underrated? Wtf you talking about?

My Sin was my first char and has been my main for ~9 months which is how long I've been playing GW.

As for underrated...lol...my sin is my most powerful character.

Quote: Originally Posted by insidious420 With the right build a 'sin can do things no warrior can do consistantly, for example: Assassin's Remedy + Golden Fox Strike + Wild Strike and/or Golden Fang + dual(s) and/or anything else (get creative), provides a consistant, highly repeatable, near-unblockable source of damage on-demand, whereas a warrior must build adrenaline (and lose adrenaline to remove defensive stances [Wild Blow]). The tradeoff being that sins shouldn't frontline because they can't really pressure without skills & have lower armor. What. Warriors deal most of their damage through autoattacking, and as mentioned in my other post, can consistently have an IAS or IMS without going into their secondary, and target switching exists.


Quote: Saying 'sins are a flawed concept because of their inherent attack mechanics, spotty effectiveness, or manueverability, is kind of ridiculous to me, and goes hand-in-hand w/people saying that 'sins take no skill to use... 'sins ARE NOT a flawed concept simply BECAUSE they DO take skill to use effectively. Warrior = frontline c-space & mash adren skills as they recharge. Assasin = hang back, observe the battle, pick out a target when you KNOW you can land a full chain.... ANYONE with half a brain can EASILY counter a 'sin, it's up to the 'sin player's skill to outhink & bypass those counters. You're pretty dumb.

Assassins require skill because they "require battlefield observation" and "require decent spike coordination"? It's not exactly like skills such as Bull's Strike require battlefield observation skills, or any other class needs to use it, right? All classes require battlefield observation to be effective, not just Assassin.

No. It's not about "out-thinking" your opponent, and you even contradicted yourself on the last part of this quote.

Agree that sin's are ineffective with the current nerfs. Yes they were powerful in the past, but that is not the present.

This garbage that people have been spewing, that every every class has a role is BS. Every classes' role is only as strong as the programming behind it. It is impossible to perfectly balance classes in a complex game like Guild Wars. Eventually classes become more or less effective as skills are nerfed and buffed. That is the present state of the assasin. It is not worthwhile to play in PVP when better options exist.

It cannot fulfill its role without the class being completely redesigned, because the majority feel that the ganking role does not encourage fair game play. The idea of sins playing a role where they cause mass confusion, is a nice idea, but ineffective with the current skill set the sin possesses. Sorry, I really like the idea of sins too, but that is the truth.

Now my above statements refers primarily to PVP. Sins can be quite fun to play in PVE, especially for farming.

Quote: What. Warriors deal most of their damage through autoattacking, and as mentioned in my other post, can consistently have an IAS or IMS without going into their secondary, and target switching exists. I never said anything about autoattacking, damage, consistent IAS/IMS, target switching, etc. What I said was 'sins can keep conditions off themselves & strip stances much more easily than Warriors, without hindering their ability to continue attacking (Wild Blow), and therefore can more realiably land attack SKILLS when they use them. I never inferred anything else you just commented on. And I certainly was not trying to say an Assassin is "better" than a Warrior, which you seem to have interpretted. I was comparing very specific functionality between the two.

Quote: You're pretty dumb. Thanks, you're a rude little douche full of pent up range for strangers on the interwebs you disagree with and/or don't understand. Tossing around random dick insults sure is fun. Grow up.

Quote: Assassins require skill because they "require battlefield observation" and "require decent spike coordination"? It's not exactly like skills such as Bull's Strike require battlefield observation skills, or any other class needs to use it, right? All classes require battlefield observation to be effective, not just Assassin. I never said battlefield observation on the player's part was a skill needed SPECIFICLY to ONLY Assassins, which you somehow seem to have interpretted from what I said. I was implying that 'sins are not as simple as "1,2,3,4,5" as everyone says. Yeah, you press buttons in a specific order to do things, but you still have to THINK in between actions, just like all classes....
Quote: No. It's not about "out-thinking" your opponent, and you even contradicted yourself on the last part of this quote. Yes, it actually kind of is 100% completely about out-thinking oponents (isn't the ENTIRE GAME, when you get down to it, about out-thinking your opponent?). I can understand how you think I contradicted myself in the last part of what I said, but if you think about it, it's not technically a contradiction. I admit it's a bit muddled sounding, but the point was GW is ultimately about counters.

Quote: Originally Posted by insidious420 I never said anything about autoattacking, damage, consistent IAS/IMS, target switching, etc. What I said was 'sins can keep conditions off themselves & strip stances much more easily than Warriors, without hindering their ability to continue attacking (Wild Blow), and therefore can more realiably land attack SKILLS when they use them. I never inferred anything else you just commented on. And I certainly was not trying to say an Assassin is "better" than a Warrior, which you seem to have interpretted. I was comparing very specific functionality between the two. Conditions? Restore Condition is a staple skill for a Prot Monk in GvG, and Foul Feast is a staple skill for Necromancers. Wild Blow means no Rush, and you're doing next to nothing using it.

Quote: Thanks, you're a rude little douche full of pent up range for strangers on the interwebs you disagree with and/or don't understand. Tossing around random dick insults sure is fun. Grow up. Maybe I did be a bit over the top there, but coming down to my level surely isn't the way to "tell me off".

Quote: I never said battlefield observation on the player's part was a skill needed SPECIFICLY to ONLY Assassins, which you somehow seem to have interpretted from what I said. I was implying that 'sins are not as simple as "1,2,3,4,5" as everyone says. Yeah, you press buttons in a specific order to do things, but you still have to THINK in between actions, just like all classes.... Hang on, so your entire point there was moot? Thought so.

The only way you're going to have both a good Assassin bar in PvP (lol?) and not have it put in the same order over and over is by rearranging the combo across your bar.

What GW assassins boil down to is picking a squishy target mashing 1-6 on your keyboard and then running away. You can try to argue that this takes "skill" or you have to "wait for opportune moments" but that's a load of horse shit. And while shadowsteps may be fun, which they are, they are not balanced. There are a ton of skills in Guild Wars relating to the manipulation of position, and shadowsteps pretty much invalidate all of them. The fact that they don't have line of sight doesn't help there case either. Assassins were a poorly implemented class, and unfortunately the best thing that Anet could do for them is remove them from the game.

Quote: Originally Posted by Rothan Celt