Assassin's Underatted?
Tyla
I've played an Assassin for about a year (he's been around for 2 years, my PvP one 1 year) now, and I can assure you that Warriors and Dervs are alot stronger. Plus, "skillless nubs" shouldn't be said to someone unless you know their skill level personally. There have already been reasons, and if you really want to emphasise your point please bring up your argument instead of saying "skillless nubs" and not leaving any explanation of their power (lol) whatsoever.
Tyla
Rushing mobs is fun. Grab a shit ton of aggro and grab a shit ton of prot and MS/DB.
Issac
People complain about them because sometimes sins kill them before they can even react. With the right build and stuff their a really good profession.
gremlin
Its a little pointless imo to say that class A is better than class B or C what matters is how well they can work in a team.
The assassin in pve has the ability to cross an area quickly to get to a target and kill.
So in a pve team I would expect the enemy spellcasters to start dying a few seconds into a fight.
I would also expect them to be a main line of defence in case something nasty got to my back line.
As someone already said they need to be aware of the changing battlefield situation.
Limited use as a hero even if micromanaged, afraid assassins need a functioning human brain behind their actions which rules out some players.
The assassin in pve has the ability to cross an area quickly to get to a target and kill.
So in a pve team I would expect the enemy spellcasters to start dying a few seconds into a fight.
I would also expect them to be a main line of defence in case something nasty got to my back line.
As someone already said they need to be aware of the changing battlefield situation.
Limited use as a hero even if micromanaged, afraid assassins need a functioning human brain behind their actions which rules out some players.
insidious420
Tyla: Regarding our exchanges, the OP titled the thread "Assassin's Underatted?". I think you took some of my points out of that context, such as the conditions argument. I was comparing an Assassin directly to a Warrior, with no outside influences or assistance from other players (such as an RC monk, as you said). My point was that 'sins have tools at their disposal that synergize well with each other to acheive offensive & defensive results that another class (Warrior, in this example) cannot achieve ON THEIR OWN.
My point about condition & stance removal was that if the situation REQUIRED constant condition & stance removal provided by the damage dealer (Assassin or Warrior) in order for them to even touch the target, a 'sin could cure itself & strip enemy defenses & still use attack skills for damage with no hinderence. A Warrior would lose all adrenaline every time they hit Wild Blow & probably would not be able to charge up enough attacks to kill a target before they activated their block stance upon recharge. This is completely aside from the fact that a Warrior couldn't remove blind from himself. That is partly why I agree they are *somewhat* underrated.
My point about condition & stance removal was that if the situation REQUIRED constant condition & stance removal provided by the damage dealer (Assassin or Warrior) in order for them to even touch the target, a 'sin could cure itself & strip enemy defenses & still use attack skills for damage with no hinderence. A Warrior would lose all adrenaline every time they hit Wild Blow & probably would not be able to charge up enough attacks to kill a target before they activated their block stance upon recharge. This is completely aside from the fact that a Warrior couldn't remove blind from himself. That is partly why I agree they are *somewhat* underrated.
Tyla
Quote:
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My point about condition & stance removal was that if the situation REQUIRED constant condition & stance removal provided by the damage dealer (Assassin or Warrior) in order for them to even touch the target, a 'sin could cure itself & strip enemy defenses & still use attack skills for damage with no hinderence. A Warrior would lose all adrenaline every time they hit Wild Blow & probably would not be able to charge up enough attacks to kill a target before they activated their block stance upon recharge. This is completely aside from the fact that a Warrior couldn't remove blind from himself. That is partly why I agree they are *somewhat* underrated.
And anybody smart would simply leave the protted target, or in the instance of alot of protted targets (i.e Aegis), search for the best one to build adrenaline on or pressure in the process in terms of distance and damage efficiency. As for blind, that's pretty much out of the meta these days as a standalone condition; with Immo / Steam, you'd probably catch out the Burning first, and even then you could always use your secondary to your advantage as a Warrior, such as Conjure Frost and Armour of Frost.
Super Igor
Sins suck???!!! Omigash /stalkez /facepalm, srsly...
I played sin for like...since the beggining, since start of factions as my MAIN character and the prof I pretty much only played with (everything else was theorycrafting ;o), yea yea, it had hard times, before ms/db and nightfall, but something made me keep this charatcer, and like it no matter the flaming! And look at them now... In PvE: THEY ARE DAMN DAMAGE POWEHOWSES! can easily beat some eles in afarming and warriors in damage infact what they can do is amazing, a lot of team prefer a sin both as a damage dealer and a tank now (tanks to permaform...). They also look very saxayyyyy. <33333 In PvP: Imba Imba Imba, how can something insanely Imba be weak? O__o
Bobby2
PvE: MS/DB raaawr
PvP: you -are- a Shadowstepping Deep Wound spike. The rest is just filler. btw +1 for obv troll thread Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman
"save yourselves" makes sins a great party support player to. with the fast atk speed (crit agility) they build it up quick giving the monks a extra party prot to work with.
I know warriors can use "save yourselves" too with the dragon slash build, but sins dont have to dedicated 75% of their bar to build up adrenaline. Errr... what? You do know that "SY!" isn't the only skill on that bar that has a meaning, right?
Stealth Bomberman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Errr... what?
You do know that "SY!" isn't the only skill on that bar that has a meaning, right? as a matter of fact i do. i wasnt refering to the skill that way. im saying warriors have pretty much a set build they have to use in order for "SY!" to be even remotely useful, whereas, sins auto atking makes it go up fast enough giving them more choices to play around with instead of falling into 1-2 set builds. MS/DB spam is one of those builds sins use well with "SY!" but thats not all were inclined to use to make it effective all while being able to explore more builds.
Paddatoochie
Sins are basically a caster but in melee range, as they cannot have a shield and do damage as well.
They have hardly any pressure unless running a mobius chain, in which case it can easily get diverted or d shotted because it's a spam spam build. If you want pressure on a sin you could also run Shattering Assault, however this has hardly any spike potential. The advantage of warriors over assassins is that they have higher damage weapons, and a reliable permanent IAS if you chose. In addition, warriors can still be useful if one of the pieces of their "chain" get's diverted, d shot, or shield bashed. Assassins cannot. Damian979
Underrated in PvE? Yes. Poorly played by 95% of the people who play them? Yes. Supposed to be trying to spike out high armor targets in PvP? Huh?
Stealth Bomberman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian979
Underrated in PvE? Yes. Poorly played by 95% of the people who play them? Yes. Supposed to be trying to spike out high armor targets in PvP? Huh?
not spiking high armor prof in pvp, more like shutting down i.e temple strike/ siphon strength
lord_shar
Sins were quite weak when Factions initially hit the market. Given their melee attack skills combined with caster-grade armor and Afflicted corpse explosions, it was little wonder that they gained a glass-cannon reputation. Their best elite available at that time: Flourish, since Moebius Strike was still an 8-sec cooldown skill with a hit requirement. Perma-Shadow was still non-existent.
Fast-forward a few skill rebalances. Moebius strike and Death Blossom now have 2-sec recharge lengths. Aftercast still didn't exist. The Shadow-Burst build was very strong. It wasn't long before "nerf the sin" became a regular mantra from many non-sin players. This was eventually done to maintain game balance. The present-day sin isn't the consistent 1-combo killer that it used to be, but it's still fun to play regardless. Yes, it was poorly implemented from the start, but that doesn't mean that it should be forgotten altogether, especially in GW2. It is strange how the sin started as a suicidal ninja, then transitioned to a pvp spike monster, and finally the current king of hard-mode solo-farming. It's been a long trip.
Stealth Bomberman Fast-forward a few skill rebalances. Moebius strike and Death Blossom now have 2-sec recharge lengths. Aftercast still didn't exist. The Shadow-Burst build was very strong. It wasn't long before "nerf the sin" became a regular mantra from many non-sin players. This was eventually done to maintain game balance. The present-day sin isn't the consistent 1-combo killer that it used to be, but it's still fun to play regardless. Yes, it was poorly implemented from the start, but that doesn't mean that it should be forgotten altogether, especially in GW2. It is strange how the sin started as a suicidal ninja, then transitioned to a pvp spike monster, and finally the current king of hard-mode solo-farming. It's been a long trip. hit it right on the nail with this one. when fact came out, sins were the last prof i thought i would try out. but by the time nf and eotn came(not including nerf city's new residents), the assassin gameplay styles started opening my eyes. its true ppl that suck with them want em nerfed b/c face it, they suck. but the fact of the matter is, sins play a crucial role in gw ive learned. able to kill ANYONE within secs has made game balance more difficult to achieve, besides the fact mesmers never get nerfed only buffed which is fucn stupid. I KNOW in gw2 sins will still be here bc they bring a diff msg to gw. the sin class will live forever so long ppl like me give them hope.
Rick Thene
I'm not too sure about people's attitudes to Sins in PvE, as I almost never PuG with mine. H/H has gotten me through every campaign already, why should I? However, in the times that I have PuGd I have played with some very bad Sins, but also some very good ones, same as every other profession.
In PvP I think bad players overrate Sins, while good players justifiably see them as being inferior in the current metagame. I'm not going to waffle on the reasons for this, as others have summed them up already. As for GW2, well, I hope Sins make it, but I also hope for changes with them. Better class mechanics, a clearer battlefield role and maybe even a clearer distinction between PvP and PvE Sins. eg. PvP Sins focus on mobility, positioning, striking weak points, disabling key enemies (not necessarily through killing), and striking hard and fast to sow confusion. PvE Sins focus on tackling multiple enemies at a time, dealing damage to groups with short-recharge attack chains similar to DB/MS now, while dodging and parrying enemy attacks. If all this goes through, they may even need a name change, the most drastic of changes! How's "Mercenary" sound for a name? Sorry about that bit of off-topic. I'm just looking forward to making an Asura Sin.
Cammy
In PvP:
Deadly arts hex nerfs (Shadow Prison, Siphon Speed, Dark Prison, Expose Defenses) and shadowstep aftercasts pretty much made gank sins infeasible since: 1) They have to wait forever between spikes. 2) It is either difficult or energy intensive to apply cover hexes to ensure that hex based attack skills (namely Black Mantis and its cripple condition) will go through. Horns of the Ox nerf hurt just about every sin build type since: 1) The two 'falling' attacks are some of the most useful b/c of the extra damage they provide and most importantly as enablers for 2x dual attack chains. Using Trampling Ox, the only feasible way to accomplish 2x dual attacks is through the 5 skill chain (Black Mantis/Leaping Mantis -> X Offhand -> Trampling Ox -> X Falling -> Twisting Fangs). With a 5 attack skill chain you reduce your damage, since you can't have Blades of Steel + Deep Wound and must use Twisting Fangs, which does decent damage but not nearly as much as Blades of Steel + Impale. This is compared to a HotO bar that used 4 attack skills (incl. Blades of Steel) + Impale. The bar still works but with the reduced HoTO +dmg, it can't really kill anything reliably. 2) Moebius pressure bars don't work nearly as well. Whereas the previous Moebius pressure bar consisted of spamming Horns<->Moebius<->Twisting Fangs, doing chain knockdowns and significant damage, the only option now is Twisting<->Moebius<->Death Blossom or Moebius<->Death Blossom + Impale. Chain KDs are significantly more pressure than Death Blossom spam, and used correctly, the Moebius<->Horns bar could easily solo nearly any profession. Of course it still works in theory, but the damage just isn't there. Good luck getting someone below 50% health with the nerfed Horns. WotA briefly revived burst sins but the IAS feature that made it so powerful was nerfed. TL;DR Use Assacasters, Scythe sins, BB sins, shattering assault sins, and maybe GG sins. Super Igor
Well, in PvE, sins rock possibly more than any other melee class, you cant neglect that.
Glider of chaos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cammy
In PvP:
... Use Assacasters, Scythe sins, BB sins, shattering assault sins, and maybe GG sins. Nice post overall =) But about BB sins... They're pretty much dead now since KD length is hammer mastery dependent. And what's GG sin? %) edit: Oh, got it, it's Grenth Grasp %) Super Igor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glider of chaos
But about BB sins... They're pretty much dead now since KD length is hammer mastery dependent.
What are talking about?!
Glider of chaos If Backbreaker hits, you strike for +1...16 damage and your target is knocked down for 2...4 seconds. You have to have 12 hammer mastery to get 4sec KD. And you need significant dagger mastery as well as some critical strikes... IMO this build needs awkward attribute distribution and it's not all that great now. I went over the top with this "pretty much dead" stuff I guess but this build took severe hit with the nerfbat -_- Super Igor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glider of chaos
IMO this build needs awkward attribute distribution and it's not all that great now. I went over the top with this "pretty much dead" stuff I guess but this build took severe hit with the nerfbat -_-
Yes u did, be manly and run 12 hammer mastery, you wont be losing much having 4 critical strikes, apart from like 14 extra damage so nothing severe tbh. What really nerfed it abit is FGJ! nerfage actually, not BB tweak lol.
P.S. Dont be bad. Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glider of chaos
If Backbreaker hits, you strike for +1...16 damage and your target is knocked down for 2...4 seconds. You have to have 12 hammer mastery to get 4sec KD. And you need significant dagger mastery as well as some critical strikes... IMO this build needs awkward attribute distribution and it's not all that great now. I went over the top with this "pretty much dead" stuff I guess but this build took severe hit with the nerfbat -_- If memory serves you only need 3 seconds to execute the combination. Even then, the common attribute spread I personally use is: 8 Crit 12 Dagger Which can easily be molded into whatever I need. X Cytherea X
so i herd black mantis thrust also does cripple. i also herd you can cover the cripple with twisting fangs.
Cammy
Quote:
Originally Posted by X Cytherea X
so i herd black mantis thrust also does cripple. i also herd you can cover the cripple with twisting fangs.
So I heard Black Mantis requires a hex. If you want to take an IMS and IAS and res, which you should, it really doesn't leave space for a hex.
Super Igor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
If memory serves you only need 3 seconds to execute the combination. Even then, the common attribute spread I personally use is:
8 Crit 12 Dagger Which can easily be molded into whatever I need. Or that, but real men run 12 hammer. Glider of chaos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
If memory serves you only need 3 seconds to execute the combination.
4sec KD is way better because you land the whole combo while they are still on the floor. 3sec version gives monk an opportunity to get up and RoF himself for the last dual
 .
X Cytherea X
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cammy
So I heard Black Mantis requires a hex. If you want to take an IMS and IAS and res, which you should, it really doesn't leave space for a hex.
ok i'll stop being a jackass and just give you a bar. try it, you might like it.
[shadowy burden][black mantis thrust][flail][lotus strike][twisting fangs][moebius strike][trampling ox][resurrection signet]  Super Igor
Quote:
Originally Posted by X Cytherea X
ok i'll stop being a jackass and just give you a bar. try it, you might like it.
[shadowy burden][black mantis thrust][flail][lotus strike][twisting fangs][moebius strike][trampling ox][resurrection signet]
lord_shar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Igor
kkz, what if I run?... pwnt :>
from http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shadowy_Burden:
"Shadowy Burden Hex Spell. For 3...13...15 seconds, target foe moves 25% slower and while target foe has no other Hexes, that foe has 20 less armor against your attacks. Concise description Hex Spell. (3...13...15 seconds.) Target foe moves 25% slower and has 20 less armor against your attacks. Armor reduction only affects this foe while it has no other hexes." I'm guessing running is a little difficult with a 25% slow hex. I'm more of a BH->Iron Palm fan, but I digress... Super Igor
ups, what if that guy is hexed though, hexes are common. =/
Rothan Celt
Assassin in discord way works very well i might add although i still pref ele as the trigger for discord spike.
X Cytherea X
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Igor
ups, what if that guy is hexed though, hexes are common. =/
doesnt matter, shadowy burden is there just so you can walk up to the target and hit black mantis thrust. it's even better if you use your teammates' hexes instead, to save energy. the combo is almost certain to drop the target below 50%, then you can trample it mercilessly. it's actually more fun if the target has a monk so you can trample it multiple times before it dies.
Super Igor
Quote:
Originally Posted by X Cytherea X
doesnt matter, shadowy burden is there just so you can walk up to the target and hit black mantis thrust. it's even better if you use your teammates' hexes instead, to save energy. the combo is almost certain to drop the target below 50%, then you can trample it mercilessly. it's actually more fun if the target has a monk so you can trample it multiple times before it dies.
I dont get the point of your build, on one hand it wants to be a spiker, on other, a pressurer and in the end it doesnt do either very well tbh.
X Cytherea X
dude... one run-through of the combo is as damaging as any 5-hit assassin spike. and if the target is still alive, you can knock it down over and over, doing decent damage as well. reapply deepwound too if needed. regular spikes dont have these options if the target survives, and must wait awhile to try again.
it is also easy to restart the whole combo again on the same target or another target, because moebius will usually recharge everything, including the energy boost (lotus strike). in summary, it is as damaging as a spike, but has little to no downtime unlike most spikes, and has repeatable KD unlike most combos that just have one... this is ridiculously devastating and infuriating to the receiver, i can only imagine the frustration and keyboard-banging agony the player must be experiencing in real life. Tyla
Two words: Foul Feast.
Yes, it's RA, but at the same time it's possible having a Necromancer and a Monk on the enemy team. If the Monk is any good, he'll soon notice what you're doing and Guardian the Necromancer if needed. |
