EotN is Causing Problems with New Players

It's showing up lately, via questions in Q&A and in-game, that in the rush to get to EotN for quick leveling, new players are not getting their attribute point quests done.

I think that ArenaNet should change the requirement to Level 10 and completion of the two 15-pt attribute quests.

Edit: I forgot how far into the game you are before the Tyrian quests are available. This would obviously need to be changed. New quests prior to Lion's Arch would be needed.

Edit #2: Would like to point out that some of these players are from Nightfall, where all that is required for the quests is SS level 2 and 4. But the players are running off to EotN as soon as they are level 10 without even doing their beginner island quests.

Edit #3: Zinger's and Winterclaw's suggestions are very good.

Edit #4: And now that I have read that far into the thread, MarlinBackna's suggestion at post #32 is also a great idea. This would work like the EotN notice that pops up every time I log onto my level 10 ele who hasn't done the quest to go there.

Remove attribute point quests, give all new players a +30 point starting boost.

Couldn't hurt now...

And... why aren't they getting attribute points? Nothing stopping them. If there's a bug, fix it.

attribute quest in tyria is just....

i doubt newbie know those quest excist and when they completed their attribute quest they're alrdy above lvl10

EDIT: rofl 3 posting on the same time

their own fault for rushing through the game. heck if you're going to play a game at least play it through once before rushing other characters . ..

this is a better fix.

also @ op its the players fault for not doing them not anets.

This.

No changes are necesary. Less babysitting please, you cant help people unless they help themselves.

Newer players shouldn't be rushing through the game, but in their defense in proph you have to wait pretty long in order to do those quests.

IMO you should get 15 points at level 15 and another 15 at 20.

Sadly Arenanet would have to rewrite large parts of prophesies to allow for earlier 15 pt quests.
This would change the game so much and possibly ruin it.

Part of the problem is us the experienced older players saying how prophesies is the best game in the set, best storyline largest map essential elite skills for the best builds etc.
What we seldom say is that unlike Factions where you are barely into the game and you get a full 200 pts and ascend the character.
Even faster is Nightfall where you can get to 200 pts before leaving the starting island.

New players should ideally be forewarned that its a long long road before they get to be a full power character.
No heroes few players to help, its also a game notorious for runners who are a great help to experienced players bringing second and third characters through the game so they can get an elite skill quickly but it can really spoil the game for a new player.
You have to do the best part of 30 major missions to get from post searing Ascalon to Droknars forge before you get max armour and even then there are a few more steps to take to get the full 200 pts.
Much of that is with a 6 person party no heroes and as I said few players to help.

Don't get me wrong Prophesies was a blast, its still the most fun I had in GW but the new players today have the option we didn't, they have the option to bail out at lions arch and get all the new weapons armour skills heroes consumables.
Many take that rout and don't return to complete prophesies and its their loss.

I encourage anyone who has done that to take their heroes and new found skills go back to Lions arch and finish the game.
You will not regret it.

Meh, just give 'em 10 points per level. Job done.

Keep the old tests and give 'em something special instead - moar greeniez.

/semi-signed I dislike low levels in EN, they die too fast, make the req just the attribute points done.

WHAT!??!?!?!?!?!?!?

The Canthan and Elonian Attribute Quests are WAY to early. Push them back! How about a new quest in Tahnakai Temple *i.e., after completion of that mission* and 2 mutually exclusive quests in the Echovald Forest/Jade Sea. Elona=Chantry of Secrets and somewhere in The Desolation.

Force them to be lvl 20 with the attribute points. Afterall, one of the two Tyrian Attribute quests REQUIRE you to be Ascended (not Weh No Suh or Hunted!, you need to kill your doppleganger to get it).

Edit: Also, 1) Wrong forum this is a suggestion not discussion 2) where is your "other" option in your poll? Baaaad options.

I'm in favor of requiring the attribute quests to get to EotN, but only if they move the proph ones to pre-LA.

Change it back to the way it was, level 20's only.

So let me get this right. New players rush through the game because their goal is not to enjoy the game but to get to max lvl complete the game and.. go back to WoW?


And EotN is causing problems?

Right.

It's always someone elses fault.

Level 10's and the imp got no business in EoTN, It was made for level 20's and should have stayed that way. As far as attribute quests go. The "run me" crowd has always ran around with foggy maps and 170 attribute points. Its part of their unique "play style".

As great it is to let the newbies suffer, It just creates stupid problems later on.
I agree about changing EoTN for level 20's only but I also agree to move back the Tyrian attribute quests. It's the main reason that stops me making a Tyrian character (and the fact that the faces suck).

haha. that made me laugh. i enjoy the attribute quests being later in the game. i think that they're far too early in nightfall, and could be a little later into factions. plus the attribute quests were *somewhat* challenging in prophecies, but so very easy in the other two games.

and i agree, close off EotN to those under lvl 20

I wouldn't mind the second attribute quest in Prophecies being slightly earlier in the game. The NF one is a little grindy (and it actually put me off creating an NF character for the longest time), too. But yeah. I can sort of understand the rush.

(I kind of LIKED that second attribute quest, though. It was strangely fun.)

Should be made a primary quest or something. It's a pretty important thing.

I think most of us will agree that EoTN is significantly harder than the core campaigns. Even with the attribute point quests under your belt, getting to level 20 at least nets you some experience/skill with the profession. Without this additional skill new players have been going to EoTN, getting utterly dominated, then get frustrated and leave the game. I'm not saying, however, that having gotten to level 20 means you're a skilled player, or that it alone will let you succeed in EoTN, it just helps.

One of my close friends who also plays GW has beaten Factions, almost beaten Prophecies, and doesn't own Nightfall. He's currently struggling through EoTN for a few reasons: Most important is that he hasn't had enough exposure to basic counters such as [[reckless haste] to hard-hitting Jotuns, or enough exposure to good synergy, ie [[mark of rodgort] with [[they're on fire], since he's been playing mostly alone except on Guild outings. I feel as if he'd finished Prophecies, bought and beaten Nightfall, he'd much be better prepared.

Personally I think you should need to have beaten one of the core campaigns prior to traveling to EoTN.

I completely agree. Also: Well, NF skills vs Proph/Factions skills...

But I personally found NF harder than Proph or Factions. I'm not sure how much finishing Prophecies would have helped your close friend, but I think NF would definitely have helped in more ways than one. Factions is the easiest to complete in my opinion, so your poor friend really does sound kind of underprepared. My boyfriend joined the game after NF came out, but he only had Prophecies for quite a bit until he saved up enough money for NF. Then a group of us bought him Factions so he could have the whole set.

But, besides, the experience factor, he seemed quite crippled by only having one campaign. This is not to say that Prophecies sucked, or anything, but with three campaigns out, he was severely behind everyone else in terms of skill availability as well as experience. I think your friend has the same problem, especially since EotN incorporates skills from all three campaigns, and NF has, in my opinion, significantly more powerful skills than Proph/Factions.

I agree completely. Factions has the potential to be more challenging than Prophecies imo, but in any case the fact that it's so much shorter precludes gaining the same experience. Nightfall is definitely the hardest of the three, and also requires a lot more thought during the missions, which really helps to learn good tactics. I started playing when Factions came out, then subsequently beat Prophecies before buying Nightfall about 2 weeks after its release. I was caught off guard after having beaten the earlier two campaigns, and on my Monk (primary character) couldn't beat missions such as the Grand Court of Sebelkhet without a full guild party. Given that EoTN is so much harder, it only makes sense people would have similar troubles, likely to a higher magnitude.

That's a very good point you're making on the skills front. My friend plays elementalist, and most experienced PvE players I know find it hard to fathom running an effective nuker build without [[searing flames] or [[savannah heat], both Nightfall exclusive elites. Lacking other Nightfall skills on heroes is similarly challenging, such as [[dismiss condition] for Monk heroes, who otherwise can choose between [[mend ailment] and [[mend condition], the former taking too long to recharge and the latter not usable on the caster.

Among other problems, the storyline in EoTN is harder to follow than those of the core campaigns. Whereas in Factions or Nightfall (I'll exclude Prophecies because it is slightly more complicated, and sections of the game are easily skipped through running by unknowing players) you are led through a series of concise Primary Quests and Missions, in EoTN you need to do a lot more figuring out. During the preview weekend I was exploring with some guildies and ran into Frostmaw's Burrows with no clue what we were getting into. We quickly figured out that it was one of the new dungeons, but didn't understand its purpose or what the significance of the quest which referred to it given by the NPC outside the entrance in Jaga Moraine. Essentially, having played through the core games really helps because you get a good feel for all the different methods used in the game to advance you in the story, ranging from primary quests (and sometimes the requirement of completing side-quests to complete the primary) to missions, to mini-missions (first introduced in the Land of Heroes quest?) to simply being told where to go next.

I'm not suggesting it be mandatory to beat all three core games in order to access EoTN. Rather, there should be some message to the player similar to the one used for the "Difficulty: Master" quests in Nightfall. This would serve to tell players that EoTN is more akin to one of the elite areas and is at a higher difficulty than the core campaigns. I remember seeing a thread whose title was "am I retarded?" that was coming from an assassin player who was wondering why EoTN seemed impossible. Assassin is one of the most difficult classes to play effectively in PvE imo, and he clearly did not have the experience needed to go to EoTN at that time. Some posters in the thread if I remember right commiserated about their own troubles, while others explained the higher level of difficulty.

I dislike the concept of catering to idiots.

^That. Not Anet's fault(not entirely anyway) that the Journey to the North blessing makes newbies forget how to use their attribute points.

Agreed. So instead of making anything easier, let people know what they're getting into. It's very simple.

EoTN already has several existing problems stemming from trying to make it "easier." Namely, the attribute and health boosts for non-level-twenty characters which make newer players think they belong there. Also, giving clean, max weapons for the Hero Tutorial to "prepare you" for areas in which having the right equipment will save your life.

who cares. if someone wants to cripple themselves by not getting all their attribute points, then mind your own business and let them. jeez. it is not hurting you.

Nothing's stopping players comleting the extra attribute quests... This isn't an issue that needs to be fixed. I don't like however that EOTN is no longer for lvl 20's only. I liked it as a new form of end game content - does anyone know the thoughts behind why they changed that?

I'm sure they'll be a million opinions on this since it's quite subjective.

I think as far as the Tyria quests, they're no longer balanced against the new games, and could do to be removed as far as being the attrib quests. I actually think they're kinda fun quests (well depends on what primary you're doing them probably) but the game runs on a much faster pacing in all the other expansions, and now those Tyria quests seem anachronistic. Also beating those quests will not teach people anything they can be run to the location and do it with hero/hench. Might as well make them worth money/xp/cap sigs and put something earlier at LA before people go to Nornland to level.

Actually, it is. Its one of the reasons no one wants to pug anymore. There's too great a chance that whoever ends up in your pug really has no clue as to how to play, especially since EoTN is billed as end game content for lvl 20s.

Yes, too many non-lvl 20 players were complaining that they bought EoTN and were unable to enter it, since they were only "casual" players, unlike the rest of the lvl 20 "hardcore" crowd.

The change was implemented for two main reasons:
1) Further incentive for newer players to buy Eye of the North (ANet needs revenue for GW2)
2) Addition of the Platinum edition of Prophecies, which includes both Prophecies and Eye of the North

As for PUGs, as has been already posted the rampant lack of experience has strong negative effects on grouping. Most of the time, you're better off with h/h than inexperienced players. Generally I only take PUGs (even as a Monk) when the person in question seems intelligent (usually shown by good grammar and spelling) and capable. It's somewhat of a lottery, but can be well worth it. With this in mind, it's more fun (and usually more successful) to play with your Guild/Alliance.

^^ if you don't get to level twenty by simply playing the game, you're doing something wrong.. even with little time investment, if you do the primary missions and story missions, you'll hit 20. plus eotn was released so late into the series' lifespan that most players should be level 20 already..

I have an easy solution. When they turn level 20, give players a notification that they should complete the quests to get the full 200 attribute points. Makes sense to me.

Agreed

The problem isn't that new players are "idiots." The problem is there are so many primary quests, side quests and skill quests with no guide about which ones are necessary that new players have no idea where in the three continents they should go to find the 2 quests they need.

I am also seeing more and more players in the position that they have no idea where to go to pick up story lines from their original chapter. They bop over to EotN, leaving behind an unfinished story line. But by the time they have finished EotN and maybe done a few things on other continents they have forgotten where they were in the storyline of their original chapter. This is especially true if they finished a mission but had not taken the next quest in the line because the primary quest category is blank for that campaign at that point.

It really wouldn't hurt and might help retain new players if the quest log had a notice about who to see to continue a story line and who to see to get your attribute points quests.

Depending on an unofficial source like wiki to let players know the basics of the game is, frankly, a little unprofessional on ANet's part and calling New players idiots because they don't realize things by osmosis is obnoxious on the part of experienced players.

the sad part is that 90% of new players are.

I'd like to think that that's partly inexperience, rather than sheer thickheadedness. They are new players where everyone else has got a couple of years of experience, skillcaps, knowledge etc. on them.

I agree with this.

I'm not really worried about characters below level 20 trying to join groups. Would you take a <20 character? I doubt it. I took my dervish over when she was about level 12, and I fully expected to have to solo or play with a guildie. Of course, I made sure I got my attribute points, so...

That's funny, I seem to remember people finding these quests just fine before they were ever on the Wiki.

If people can't figure out a simple, linear PvE game like Guild Wars, it's because of their own shortcomings, not Anets. Expecting a company to cater to the few players who can't think for themselves, when there has never been a "problem" with finding these quests before, is ridiculous.

And a little hint, if a person can't get the extra attribute points for themselves, those extra points aren't going to magically make them better players. That's why most people don't pug, because a bad player with 200 attribute points is still a bad player - and there's a lot of them.

Those bonus attribute points are useless, why bother?

That would ruin/delay my brawling to Legendary Survivor...I vote NO!

qft. if you rush through, you miss out. period. EOTN is an expansion, IMO, that should be played after you have beaten at least one of the main games. that's how i played it: Factions, Proph, EOTN, then Nightfall.

Make it pop up every time they enter an explorable until they do both quests.

Also, have it make a very loud noise every time it comes up and while we're at it, make it flash neon colors.

That way, they can't just ignore it.