How do you even defend such ridiculous statement Tyla when there are good sin builds for every format and team builds with sins for every level of play up to gvg mAT? Of course sin split is no longer a viable build for high level gvg and BB sin took a bit of a hit, but that doesn't mean the whole class is now useless.
At any rate this thread is a thread for AB sin builds, where there's still a large variety of builds that work well.
At any rate this thread is a thread for AB sin builds, where there's still a large variety of builds that work well.
Anyone with half a brain can gank. You don't necessarily need to be a sin for that, though it's fun.
Very few Sin builds also do something other than just ganking, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyynyyrd
HB+AB=PvP.
And srs bznz at that.
Bobby2
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2007
Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards
[MaSS]
W/E
18 Nov 2008 at 22:24 - 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
assassins are only strong in pvp arena that features a) lots of open spaces and movement and b) dumb players.
that basically limits it down to two arenas: alliance battles (aka assassin battles), which features both; and hero battles, which features dumb AI substituting for dumb players, and lots of movement running between shrines.
in every other arena, they are weak purely for the fact that there are better characters you can run in that spot.
QFMFT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman
no competition, sin wins by default.
Coming from the same guy that said DW isn't necessary for a good spike. Right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by X Cytherea X
stuff about Promise not being bad in PvP
I just had to spread the word. Many lolz were had.
Quote:
Originally Posted by X CythereaX
oh, and you should cut down on your excessive usage of "oh, and" to start sentences; it sounds very juvenile and unrefined.
Search back far enough and you'll see people use the same words from time to time. What is juvenile, however, is not admitting you're wrong while it's blatantly obvious to the rest of the world, then resorting to personal attacks. GFG.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arienrhode
Three pages and only two or three posters with builds, it's gota be guru.
Yup. Why bother. Good builds are either
- found on PvXwiki, or
- remarkably similar to those found on PvXwiki.
Your build is braver. You don't need 10 Tactics though.
Krill
Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2005
America
19 Nov 2008 at 01:43 - 49
Yes I had att's wrong, it's suppose to be 12+1+1 dagger, 9+1 critical, 9 tactics and 3 shadow.
Super Igor
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2008
why should you kno? Oo
A/W
19 Nov 2008 at 13:17 - 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by arienrhode
@Super Igor
The paradox asscaster is only decent with Lyssa's Aura. You can run it with 12 in deadly arts and 12 in inspiration with ether feast as a self heal.
Not really, it only allows for more energy management so you can spam you stuff mindlessly, but its not the only viable assacaster out there.
SoJ caster still works, even my woh thing will cope well with energy which is it's only real flaw.
Quote:
In general a lot of AB assassins get too defensive with their builds or just bring crap that doesn't work. We've all seen the generic gank builds a zillion times, but if you don't know what else to run stick to the proven and play smart without getting yourself in bad situations.
Hope you arent saying this to me...
X Cytherea X
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Feb 2006
A/Mo
19 Nov 2008 at 17:41 - 51
Quote:
So in other words it's a waste of an elite? You could run Mantra of Recovery and have better results. Killing noob stragglers is easy; but why run a build that excels at capping and killing bad players when you could run a build that can cap and kill even decent players?
if the risk/reward of running AP is too much to handle, dont run it. alright ive said enough about that.
Quote:
Oh, and you should increase your use of capital letters at the beginning of new sentences. It sounds very juvenile and unrefined.
it sounds the same. guru is not worth my effort of pressing shift.
Quote:
Search back far enough and you'll see people use the same words from time to time. What is juvenile, however, is not admitting you're wrong while it's blatantly obvious to the rest of the world, then resorting to personal attacks. GFG.
lol you must be pretty sensitive to consider that a personal attack... it was advice. besides, i didnt start the fix ur engrish thing.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
19 Nov 2008 at 18:29 - 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by X Cytherea X
if the risk/reward of running AP is too much to handle, dont run it. alright ive said enough about that.
That's just like saying that if the risk and reward of a superior rune is too hard to handle don't run it. Both are bad and take up something valuable.
Quote:
it sounds the same. guru is not worth my effort of pressing shift.
You sure do take the effort of pressing shift when you're using abreviations. Wheeeeeeeeee
Quote:
lol that wasnt a personal attack, it was advice to become a better poster. besides, i didnt start the fix ur engrish thing.
You're the last person who should be offering advice to become a better poster.
Super Igor
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2008
why should you kno? Oo
A/W
19 Nov 2008 at 18:44 - 53
I agree with Tyla, cytheria is a faggot ups. :>
Back on topic if we are not running some wacky assacasters and going propper melee instead ab code stays the same. Having at least an ims and a snare or utility is almost a must inn ab, so [hidden caltrops] come to mind...good snare that you use to catch kiters, spike and just snare.
two builds:
[build prof=a/w][hidden caltrops][flail][black mantis thrust][jungle strike][trampling ox][falling lotus strike][twisting fangs][dash][/build]
-Standard hc sin, works like a charm in ab able to spike down stuff quickly, snare and move fast.
[build prof=a/d][hidden caltrops][wearying strike][malicious strike][mystic sweep][assassin's remedy][way of the master][dash][optional][/build]
-Fit whatever you like in the optional slot, very strong build, very strong damage, has a snare, moves fast...what else do could you need?
Jeydra
Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
20 Nov 2008 at 01:26 - 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
HAHA CYTHEREA DID A FUNNY - Scrubs calling other people scrubs is funny. Especially since you think that Sinsplit was tactical.
Oh, and Assassins' Promise is bad in PvP. Spikes aren't always going to go through, especially 'Sin spikes.
This post really shows how little you know about AB.
Assassin's Promise is one of the best elites you can run in AB, provided you know what you're doing. Yes, it does not always go through, and sometimes you will miss it. But not often - provided you know what you're doing. Also, even if you do miss, AB is AB is AB. Games do not last 2 minutes like RA games do, and you can always run off and cap another shrine. Assassin's Promise as a skill might be terrible in PvP most of the time, but AB is an exception to the rule. The most effective Elementalist builds in AB run AP - and I know five different top AB'ers who all came to the same conclusion, independently.
When using Assassin's Promise in AB do not use it to begin a chain with, and do not use it when you are not guaranteed a kill. Good targets for AP include solocapping Elementalists with no real defense (use near the end of a chain) and any player who is under severe pressure and so likely to die soon. If possible get an ally to attack the same target with you; spam teamchat if it seems AP will wear off before the target dies.
If you are not confident with AP do not run it.
I suggest the standard Dark Prison / Shadow Prison build for AB:
If you are confident enough to run AP then drop Shadow Prison for Assassin's Promise.
This build does not have a speedboost, but it has two teleports, which compensates. It also does not have self-heal - so get a good team and someone to heal you. The build linked to in the original video I do not like: you lead with AP (extremely dangerous), Shadow Fang returns you to where you started instead of moving you around (not a good idea since AB emphasizes mobility) and if you miss it takes 45 seconds for both Shadow Fang and AP to cooldown (unlike the above build, which you can lead off either shadowstep).
Sins are one of the better classes to play in AB (on par with Monks and Elementalists), so use them well.
PS: Nice flaming Tyla, especially coming from someone like you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
That's just like saying that if the risk and reward of a superior rune is too hard to handle don't run it. Both are bad and take up something valuable.
Lol. This is AB. Actually not only is this AB, we are talking about Assassins. Sins need 13 Critical Strike if it can be done, and if it means running a Major or even a Superior rune I say do it.
PS: Which player was it in [rawr] who runs Superior Axe? I assume he's a bad player, and therefore the guild he plays in is bad, yes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Why would you need Crip Victory when you have Hidden Caltrops? Wearying Strikes' downfall is gone under the effects of Assassins' Remedy. The first bar didn't claim originality.
Read. Crytherea said run Wounding Strike and Crippling Victory, not Hidden Caltrops and Crippling Victory.
moriz
??ber t??k-n??sh'??n
Join Date: Jan 2006
Canada
R/
20 Nov 2008 at 01:42 - 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
Lol. This is AB. Actually not only is this AB, we are talking about Assassins. Sins need 13 Critical Strike if it can be done, and if it means running a Major or even a Superior rune I say do it.
PS: Which player was it in [rawr] who runs Superior Axe? I assume he's a bad player, and therefore the guild he plays in is bad, yes?
chop chop runs a superior axe rune simply because he can get away with it. his guild typically runs ~5 layers (though they probably no longer do so in the current metagame) of defense backed up by two of the best monks in the game. you do not have such luxury in AB. in fact, i bet you that he'll take off the superior rune if he's pugging, because without his familiar team, his loss of health is no longer worth the slight increase in damage.
and assassins only run 13 crit if the build really needs the energy. my shove spiker for instance, runs only 10 (and most of its damage comes from twisting fangs to boot). the loss of damage is minimal, and you'll definitely need the additional hitpoints.
about why assassin's promise is generally bad in pvp (AB included):
AP will only benefit you if your build needs its effects. that is, if your build is A) very heavy on energy, and/or B) takes forever to recharge. since such builds are generally unfavourable in pvp, AP is really not all that useful.
you may argue that AP will remedy the problems with such builds, but please consider: AP takes up an elite slot that could be put to better use, and the simple fact that there are builds available that is just as effective WITHOUT the huge energy costs and/or long recharges. unless you are running AP for the sake of running AP, there are builds that function just as well (or even better) that does not need you to sacrifice your elite for energy management.
Jeydra
Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
20 Nov 2008 at 02:00 - 56
That's the point: you can get away with a Superior rune in AB because you are not going to be facing coordinated offense, and neither are you going to be spiked (one Monk with you = any single player spiking will fail). Because of the unique situations in which AB occurs in you can run a Superior rune and get away with it.
PS: The point about linking Chop Chop is a jibe at Tyla, who makes blanket statements all over Guru while being completely oblivious to the exceptions and calling other people scrubs even though it certainly seems to me that he isn't far off being a scrub himself.
As for Critical Strikes, again, exactly - which is why I wrote there if it's reasonably achievable. If you're running Shove and have 10 Critical Strikes, using a Superior rune still won't get you to 13 Critical Strikes, so you might as well use a Minor. On the other hand, if your build gets you to 12 Critical Strikes with a Minor rune, you might as well use a Major and raise it to 13.
Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
AP will only benefit you if your build needs its effects. that is, if your build is A) very heavy on energy, and/or B) takes forever to recharge. since such builds are generally unfavourable in pvp, AP is really not all that useful.
you may argue that AP will remedy the problems with such builds, but please consider: AP takes up an elite slot that could be put to better use, and the simple fact that there are builds available that is just as effective WITHOUT the huge energy costs and/or long recharges. unless you are running AP for the sake of running AP, there are builds that function just as well (or even better) that does not need you to sacrifice your elite for energy management.
Dark Prison is 30-second recharge. That is fairly long. Meteor Shower is 60-second recharge, and when backed up with Glyph of Sacrifice it becomes 90 seconds. AP seriously benefits both builds.
You might say that neither build are 'favorable', but I would beg to differ. The Dark Prison build has snare, KD, teleport as well as a reasonably effective chain. Meteor Shower is the single biggest reason why Elementalists cap shrines so effectively in AB. What other elite do you want to use anyway? You could use Shadow Prison instead of Assassin's Promise as I wrote above, which is a tradeoff (gain a second teleport and are no longer vulnerable to missing AP; lose the ability to spike more than once every 12 seconds), but for Elementalists you are stuck. Elemental Attunement is too slow. Searing Flames is great, but not great enough and you take heavy damage when capping shrines. Double Dragon is lulz for obvious reasons. Savannah Heat does not KD. And then?
Do note that here I mean capping teams as opposed to rolling teams; in rolling teams you won't use an Assassin and if you do use an Elementalist that Elementalist will be using Water, in which case you won't need Assassin's Promise.
I think last time I ran a sin in AB I used something along the lines of:
["You're All Alone!"][Black Mantis Thrust][Jungle Strike][Trampling Ox][Falling Lotus Strike][Twisting Fangs][Frenzy][Dash]
[Frenzy] being interchangeable with [Flurry] or [Tiger Stance].
[Hidden Caltrops] is probably a better snare than YAA but then you have to rely on Black Mantis Thrust for the cripple and missing that you lose your KD. Sure YAA can't be used on shrine NPC's unless you split them up but usually their health is so low that you could probably go 2 -> 3 -> 6 and they'd be almost dead. Survival comes from being smart and proper movement. A good team helps as well.
moko
??uo??o??
Join Date: May 2006
20 Nov 2008 at 12:48 - 59
ok kids
you can cut down on your stupid e-fights with derailing threads now. you know who you are, consider this a warning.
oh and by the way, i think the build cy posted works pretty well for AB. same with AP having great potentional in organized teams, just not in PUGs tho.
Krill
Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2005
America
20 Nov 2008 at 16:06 - 60
You don't need 13 in critical to run a sin, especially since EoTN brought Falling Lotus and Lotus Strike which are both great in big domage chains. I have never had energy problems with BB sin @ 9 critical and the hammer bash sin @ 10 critical. For AB I think it's better to run minor runes with Nightstalker's insignias so you have more resilience against c-spacers that won't get off the first player they see until one of you is dead.
Run major runes on eles and axe warriors, but not a sin
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
20 Nov 2008 at 16:32 - 61
[QUOTE=Jeydra;4362233]This post really shows how little you know about AB.
Quote:
Assassin's Promise is one of the best elites you can run in AB, provided you know what you're doing. Yes, it does not always go through, and sometimes you will miss it. But not often - provided you know what you're doing. Also, even if you do miss, AB is AB is AB. Games do not last 2 minutes like RA games do, and you can always run off and cap another shrine. Assassin's Promise as a skill might be terrible in PvP most of the time, but AB is an exception to the rule. The most effective Elementalist builds in AB run AP - and I know five different top AB'ers who all came to the same conclusion, independently.
lol.
You do know this is a PvP discussion, right?
Assassins Promise is only useful on bad players, NPC's and ganks. If you aren't ganking 90% of the time it loses efficiency. Hidden Caltrops actually allows a cheap, powerful snare aswell as an entrance to a Crippling based combination.
Oh, and Nukers are quite bad. By the time you get to another shrine, your bar is recharged, AoEDots are pretty terrible outside of NPC's unless you've got a Hammer Warrior who knows his shit, Assassins Promise kills your secondary meaning no Weapon of Warding. Oh, and Me/E > E/X outside of a Shatterstone Elementalist.
Quote:
When using Assassin's Promise in AB do not use it to begin a chain with, and do not use it when you are not guaranteed a kill. Good targets for AP include solocapping Elementalists with no real defense (use near the end of a chain) and any player who is under severe pressure and so likely to die soon. If possible get an ally to attack the same target with you; spam teamchat if it seems AP will wear off before the target dies.
Solocapping is bad. Be a team player. And if you're solocapping, use something that can be useful outside of that scenario. I'll give you a clue, [[Incendiary Arrows].
Quote:
Tiger Stance (lol @ whoever suggested Flail)
Flail is a fairly decent skill to use when it comes to those combos. Why? Either you don't start it off and you fail already, or you're going to successfully score a kill. Both of which are quite risky. Well, unless for some reason you're jumping in randomly and hitting your chain, and that isn't smart anyway.
Quote:
This build does not have a speedboost, but it has two teleports, which compensates. It also does not have self-heal - so get a good team and someone to heal you.
More reason why Caltrops is stronger.
Quote:
Lol. This is AB. Actually not only is this AB, we are talking about Assassins. Sins need 13 Critical Strike if it can be done, and if it means running a Major or even a Superior rune I say do it.
'Sins don't need 13 Critical Strikes, and the complete reliance on critical hits in your chain often results in a bad chain.
Quote:
Read. Crytherea said run Wounding Strike and Crippling Victory, not Hidden Caltrops and Crippling Victory.
Was going to edit, but Guru was down yesterday.
Quote:
That's the point: you can get away with a Superior rune in AB because you are not going to be facing coordinated offense, and neither are you going to be spiked (one Monk with you = any single player spiking will fail). Because of the unique situations in which AB occurs in you can run a Superior rune and get away with it.
I ran an Assassin with the following bar in AB before;
[patient spirit][heal area][dismiss condition][holy veil][healers covenant][infuse health][return][way of the master]
Now, have a look at that bar again. Just because it's capable of winning Alliance Battles doesn't make it good or effective. Just because you can get away with shit doesn't mean it's efficient to do so. Oh, and occasionally you get people who can spike, unless you're one who thinks spiking is only capable with Ventrilo or any other voice communication software. On several counts have I spiked with other party members.
Oh, and... solo capping is bad when that's all of your bar capability. Play something that can efficiently contribute to winning in other ways, not just solo capping in the times that you may require to do so.
Quote:
PS: The point about linking Chop Chop is a jibe at Tyla, who makes blanket statements all over Guru while being completely oblivious to the exceptions and calling other people scrubs even though it certainly seems to me that he isn't far off being a scrub himself.
I didn't actually call anyone a scrub for using a superior rune, I said superior runes were bad. What I did call someone a scrub for, however, is making a sweeping statement that most of the posters in this thread is a scrub for saying the bar in the video was bad, and pointed out some epic stupidity on their part; you really think Sinsplit is tactical?
Quote:
As for Critical Strikes, again, exactly - which is why I wrote there if it's reasonably achievable. If you're running Shove and have 10 Critical Strikes, using a Superior rune still won't get you to 13 Critical Strikes, so you might as well use a Minor. On the other hand, if your build gets you to 12 Critical Strikes with a Minor rune, you might as well use a Major and raise it to 13.
And if you don't need the extra energy management?
X Cytherea X
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Feb 2006
A/Mo
20 Nov 2008 at 18:11 - 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
snip
Quote:
Originally Posted by moko
snip
finally, some sensible people in this thread. i salute you.
ok we get it. tyla isnt brutal enough to run AP, nukers, solocappers, or superior runes. let us leave him to his own devices.
oh and by the way, i think the build cy posted works pretty well for AB. same with AP having great potentional in organized teams, just not in PUGs tho.
AP is best in PuGs. If you have an organized team you can reasonably run rolling builds; if you do not then you have to rely on capping, and that's when AP works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Assassins Promise is only useful on bad players, NPC's and ganks. If you aren't ganking 90% of the time it loses efficiency. Hidden Caltrops actually allows a cheap, powerful snare aswell as an entrance to a Crippling based combination.
Oh, and Nukers are quite bad. By the time you get to another shrine, your bar is recharged, AoEDots are pretty terrible outside of NPC's unless you've got a Hammer Warrior who knows his shit, Assassins Promise kills your secondary meaning no Weapon of Warding. Oh, and Me/E > E/X outside of a Shatterstone Elementalist.
AB revolves around capping. That's pretty much it. Elementalists rule AB because they are the best cappers in the game. Any coordinated team that I form would revolve around the Elementalist - the Elementalist will be in charge of calling movement around the map the same way Warriors call tactics in GvG. The Elementalist takes the greatest skill to play in AB, followed by the Sin if there is one in the party. Everyone else merely follows the Elementalist around. In a similar vein, AP is great in AB because you spend more time capping than fighting. There is only one map where you don't use the Elementalist (at least the Fire-based version), and that is Saltspray. In the others, especially Kaanai if you are Kurzick or Ancestral if you are Luxon, the Elementalist is absolutely necessary - and sometimes you want more than one.
Yes AoEDots are pretty terrible outside of killing NPCs - but that is pretty much all you do. You do not get in fights if you can help it, and if you do get in fights they do not last very long. Hidden Caltrops is a cheap powerful snare that can lead to Black Mantis Thrust, but so is Shadow Prison, which also happens to be a teleport. If you are running Weapon of Warding on an Elementalist, good luck to you, that's for HA not for AB. And finally Me/E's are bad compared to primary Elementalists: they have significantly less Fire and you don't need the Fast Casting unless you're stupid enough to attempt to cap a defended shrine without powerful outside advantages - and in any case you can use AP to recharge your interrupted skills.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Solocapping is bad. Be a team player. And if you're solocapping, use something that can be useful outside of that scenario. I'll give you a clue, Incendiary Arrows.
If you are solocapping, you are a team player. The Elementalist solocaps while his team caps because that is the fastest way to do it. Example: Etnaran Isles. Start of match, Luxon side. Team goes out right door, caps shrine. Team moves on to Elite Elementalist shrine, taking care to avoid a conflict, caps shrine. Once shrine is neutralized Elementalist moves on to Seaside Attack shrine, caps shrine. Rest of team stays behind to take the shrine and pick up the NPC, then follows the Elementalist to the Attack shrine. Once Attack shrine is neutralized, Elementalist moves on to Elite Warrior shrine, caps shrine. And so on. The Elementalist solocaps - he has no one with him when he is capping. But he is also a team player - he advances the team's purpose.
Solocapping is far from bad, it is fast and extremely effective. You've been playing too much rolling builds (or other kinds of PvP) as far as I can tell.
PS: Incendiary Arrows is like 10 times slower than a Fire Elementalist, and good luck to you when you have to deal with Monks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Flail is a fairly decent skill to use when it comes to those combos. Why? Either you don't start it off and you fail already, or you're going to successfully score a kill. Both of which are quite risky. Well, unless for some reason you're jumping in randomly and hitting your chain, and that isn't smart anyway.
Flail is bad in AB. It requires adrenaline. You don't have the time to gain adrenaline while charging around from one shrine to the other.
Yes you are jumping in semi-randomly and launching the chain. That is what the Sin does. He's an opportunistic killer who looks around for someone he can kill, quickly, and then moves on to follow the Elementalist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
More reason why Caltrops is stronger.
Did you know? In Etnaran Isles you can teleport from the bottom level to either Res Orb or Res Shrine via Death's Charge. A good Elementalist will definitely make use of this path, and expect his team to Return to him (or teleport up via other methods). Hidden Caltrops does not allow you to do this, but Shadow Prison will.
Tell me, what is the big strength of Hidden Caltrops anyway? Pretty much the only reason I can see to use it is to snare someone you do not intend to kill - otherwise Shadow Prison -> Black Mantis achieves the same 50% movespeed reduction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Now, have a look at that bar again. Just because it's capable of winning Alliance Battles doesn't make it good or effective. Just because you can get away with shit doesn't mean it's efficient to do so. Oh, and occasionally you get people who can spike, unless you're one who thinks spiking is only capable with Ventrilo or any other voice communication software. On several counts have I spiked with other party members.
And so we're right back to where we first started, yes? Your ex-guildmates once said exactly the same thing of ER-based healers, that 'just because you can do it doesn't make it good or effective'.
I suggest this: play a few AB games with me and I'll play a few AB games with you, and then we come to our own conclusions about how effective each others' AB strategies are. For my strategy to work, I need only two players - one Elementalist and one Monk, unless playing on Kaanai / Ancestral with heavy disadvantage, when I want a second Elementalist - so you and me should suffice. I do not claim to be the best Elementalist-player in AB, I'll see if I can persuade my friend to play a few games so you can experience firsthand as I once did months ago what it's like. For your strategy ... up to you how many players you want to use and how many PuGs, and I don't mind playing any build or any role you want me to; I'll even log on to Ventrillo if that's how you coordinate the team. Are you agreeable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
I didn't actually call anyone a scrub for using a superior rune, I said superior runes were bad. What I did call someone a scrub for, however, is making a sweeping statement that most of the posters in this thread is a scrub for saying the bar in the video was bad, and pointed out some epic stupidity on their part; you really think Sinsplit is tactical?
You said Superior runes are bad, and so implicitly imply that anyone who uses Superior runes are bad, and so imply as well that Chop Chop is bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
And if you don't need the extra energy management?
Then run Superior Dagger, or if not confident enough, run Major Dagger. Simple.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
20 Nov 2008 at 23:09 - 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
AB revolves around capping. That's pretty much it. Elementalists rule AB because they are the best cappers in the game. Any coordinated team that I form would revolve around the Elementalist - the Elementalist will be in charge of calling movement around the map the same way Warriors call tactics in GvG. The Elementalist takes the greatest skill to play in AB, followed by the Sin if there is one in the party. Everyone else merely follows the Elementalist around. In a similar vein, AP is great in AB because you spend more time capping than fighting. There is only one map where you don't use the Elementalist (at least the Fire-based version), and that is Saltspray. In the others, especially Kaanai if you are Kurzick or Ancestral if you are Luxon, the Elementalist is absolutely necessary.
This made me laugh to be honest. Elementalists and Assassins take little to no skill, and the other classes take a lot more skill to actually execute properly. 'Sins require common sense to be effective, Elementalists are just hit your bar on recharge, snare stragglers, blind / blur physicals and hit the Weapon of Warding button every now and then, at least when it comes to Shatterstone. Nuking is just... press your bar = win.
You're not taking into account shrine defending and entire map movement. Sometimes you need to push or wipe an opposing team to defend a shrine etc. For example, in one of the fort maps as an attacking team you'd want to hold the two res shrines up top and push the enemy teams into base. If you're solo capping, the efficiency of your shrine capturing speed decreases when you can be running an IA Ranger, an Earth Shaker, a Melshot or Shatterstone Ranger and a Monk you'd be able to clear shrines at a decent rate while being able to push teams back and defend shrines efficiently. Versatility is key, you can't expect to just cap cap cap and win, you have to kill aswell.
Quote:
Yes AoEDots are pretty terrible outside of killing NPCs - but that is pretty much all you do. You do not get in fights if you can help it, and if you do get in fights they do not last very long. Hidden Caltrops is a cheap powerful snare that can lead to Black Mantis Thrust, but so is Shadow Prison, which also happens to be a teleport. If you are running Weapon of Warding on an Elementalist, good luck to you, that's for HA not for AB. And finally Me/E's are bad compared to primary Elementalists: they have significantly less Fire and you don't need the Fast Casting unless you're stupid enough to attempt to cap a defended shrine without powerful outside advantages - and in any case you can use AP to recharge your interrupted skills.
My point on Caltrops is that you can use it on other players and maintain the snare as needed at range. It's also more spammable and cheaper, especially if you bring the weaponset that makes it more useful. Weapon of Warding is a powerful skill to use when it comes to moving from the area.
Quote:
If you are solocapping, you are a team player. The Elementalist solocaps while his team caps because that is the fastest way to do it. Example: Etnaran Isles. Start of match, Luxon side. Team goes out right door, caps shrine. Team moves on to Elite Elementalist shrine, taking care to avoid a conflict, caps shrine. Once shrine is neutralized Elementalist moves on to Seaside Attack shrine, caps shrine. Rest of team stays behind to take the shrine and pick up the NPC, then follows the Elementalist to the Attack shrine. Once Attack shrine is neutralized, Elementalist moves on to Elite Warrior shrine, caps shrine. And so on. The Elementalist solocaps - he has no one with him when he is capping. But he is also a team player - he advances the team's purpose.
Avoiding conflicts also loses you points at times. Unless you're running a Mind Blaster with the various skills that base around utility (think previous MB Meta), you're going to be useless outside of capping shrines.
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Solocapping is far from bad, it is fast and extremely effective. You've been playing too much rolling builds (or other kinds of PvP) as far as I can tell.
PS: Incendiary Arrows is like 10 times slower than a Fire Elementalist, and good luck to you when you have to deal with Monks.
In other words, you're not using this nifty thing called Distracting Shot and its friend called Savage Shot used to kill a Monk with the various skills available to you? Tell me, if there is a Monk defending an enemy shrine, how are you going to solo cap it anyway?
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Flail is bad. It requires adrenaline. You don't have the time to gain adrenaline while charging around from one shrine to the other.
Yes you are jumping in semi-randomly and launching the chain. That is what the Sin does. He's an opportunistic killer who looks around for someone he can kill, quickly, and then moves on to follow the Elementalist.
Even as an Assassin you should be pressuring as much as you possibly could. Unloading your chain straight off is just stupid, especially when there is someone who can negate your chain anyway, for example a Ranger or anything that carries blocking skills. If you're just hitting your chain on the contact of an enemy team, you might as well be standing right next to a Ranger and casting something like Aegis.
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Did you know? In Etnaran Isles you can teleport from the bottom level to either Res Orb or Res Shrine via Death's Charge. A good Elementalist will definitely make use of this path, and expect his team to Return to him (or teleport up via other methods). Hidden Caltrops does not allow you to do this, but Shadow Prison will.
Yet Hidden Caltrops is more spammable, cheaper, can lead into your chain and is useful outside of simply spiking?
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Tell me, what is the big strength of Hidden Caltrops anyway? Pretty much the only reason I can see to use it is to snare someone you do not intend to kill - otherwise Shadow Prison -> Black Mantis achieves the same 50% movespeed reduction.
Except more removable and harder to keep up. Shadow Prison also has an aftercast making it take even longer to execute Shadow Prison -> Black Mantis, and you're using two skills costing 15 energy making you easy to spot out for an interrupt on Mantis.
Again, Hidden Caltrops is spammable, cheap and can be cancelled without much trouble. You also still get the crippling if it gets removed, with it being completely maintainable. Your combo isn't available 100% of the time at all.
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And so we're right back to where we first started, yes? Your ex-guildmates once said exactly the same thing of ER-based healers, that 'just because you can do it doesn't make it good or effective'.
I suggest this: play a few AB games with me and I'll play a few AB games with you, and then we come to our own conclusions about how effective each others' AB strategies are. For my strategy to work, I need only two players - one Elementalist and one Monk, unless playing on Kaanai / Ancestral with heavy disadvantage - so you and me should suffice (although I do not claim to be the best Elementalist-player in AB, I'll see if I can persuade my friend to play a few games). For your strategy ... up to you how many players you want to use and how many PuGs, and I don't mind playing any build or any role you want me to; I'll even log on to Ventrillo if that's how you coordinate the team. Game?
Considering I play a bar which is probably weaker than an IA Ranger with Pin Down, it might not work. Take into account that 5 teams are all selected differently from your own.
Besides, it's only going to be accurate if you get 24 players, or 6 teams to successfully sync together and not be clueless. You can try to get them if you want, but I request a more accurate setting to test either of our tactics.
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You said Superior runes are bad, and so implicitly imply that anyone who uses Superior runes are bad, and so imply as well that Chop Chop is bad.
Considering I've also seen a rank 58 guild use some bar that has damage sorta like a Flare Spammer which is infinately weaker to a Caretakers' Charge midliner, and all sorts of wacky shit on observe. Not seen [sup] run Mo/P's using "Make Haste!", "Never Surrender!" and "Brace Yourself!" I assume?
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Then run Superior Dagger. Simple.
wut
Jeydra
Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
20 Nov 2008 at 23:45 - 66
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Originally Posted by Tyla
This made me laugh to be honest. Elementalists and Assassins take little to no skill, and the other classes take a lot more skill to actually execute properly. 'Sins require common sense to be effective, Elementalists are just hit your bar on recharge, snare stragglers, blind / blur physicals and hit the Weapon of Warding button every now and then, at least when it comes to Shatterstone. Nuking is just... press your bar = win.
You're not taking into account shrine defending and entire map movement. Sometimes you need to push or wipe an opposing team to defend a shrine etc. For example, in one of the fort maps as an attacking team you'd want to hold the two res shrines up top and push the enemy teams into base. If you're solo capping, the efficiency of your shrine capturing speed decreases when you can be running an IA Ranger, an Earth Shaker, a Melshot or Shatterstone Ranger and a Monk you'd be able to clear shrines at a decent rate while being able to push teams back and defend shrines efficiently. Versatility is key, you can't expect to just cap cap cap and win, you have to kill aswell.
Key word highlighted. If you are playing an Elementalist in a capping - not rolling - AB team, you do not use Shatterstone. Shatterstone Elementalists do not make decisions. AP Elementalists do.
If you are playing an Elementalist in a capping team then yes you take into account shrine defending and entire map movement. That is your duty, because if you choose to run off and cap another shrine as opposed to fight, your team follows you, and if you choose to stay and fight (and possibly get rolled), your team stays with you.
If you are running IA Ranger, Earth Shaker, Melandru's Shot Ranger and Monk, and I have two Monks and two Fire Elementalists, and we are the only four players on the map, I bet you anything I will outcap you (that's even with your ability to roll my team 4v4, because I am not going to get caught). If I do not have two Monks + two Fire Elementalists - which is, I admit, something I specced against you - then I will still have something like Monk, Channeling + Restoration Rit, Sin and Fire Elementalist, and I will still outcap you, because I can cap two shrines at a time while you can only cap one.
As for having to kill as well, yes - there will be times when you are forced to fight. But such times are rare, and when they do arise and the Elementalist chooses to fight, his team, other teams and NPCs do the fighting for him. There are two other players in the team supported by a Monk, more than enough to roll stragglers. Against a coordinated team like the one you mentioned, the Elementalist will choose not to fight, and you can have the shrine if you so desire because the Elementalist knows he can outcap you.
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Originally Posted by Tyla
My point on Caltrops is that you can use it on other players and maintain the snare as needed at range. It's also more spammable and cheaper, especially if you bring the weaponset that makes it more useful. Weapon of Warding is a powerful skill to use when it comes to moving from the area.
Shadow Prison and Dark Prison qualify as a ranged snares as well. Spammable, not so much (although if you are running both the odds are at least one of them is cooled at any time; if you are running only one then you have AP to recharge Dark Prison). More spammable does not matter, you usually do not have to snare more than one player at a time. Weapon of Warding helps of course, but you are sacrificing AP and teleports by running WoW. Definitely not a good idea.
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Originally Posted by Tyla
In other words, you're not using this nifty thing called Distracting Shot and its friend called Savage Shot used to kill a Monk with the various skills available to you? Tell me, if there is a Monk defending an enemy shrine, how are you going to solo cap it anyway?
I challenge you to post two screenshots, when you first engage a NPC shrine and when you finally manage to kill the Monk. I will post a similar screenshot of myself engaging a NPC shrine and then killing the Monk. Let me tell you that I can do it without taking more than 5 seconds, and I seriously doubt you can match that time. Do you accept the challenge? If not I won't bother.
I don't mean human Monks - NPC Monks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Even as an Assassin you should be pressuring as much as you possibly could. Unloading your chain straight off is just stupid, especially when there is someone who can negate your chain anyway, for example a Ranger or anything that carries blocking skills. If you're just hitting your chain on the contact of an enemy team, you might as well be standing right next to a Ranger and casting something like Aegis.
What are you talking about pressure? This is AB. There is no pressure. Good teams avoid fights if they cannot win, they do not stay to get out-pressured. You are only going to be autoattacking as a Sin when the Elementalist makes a decision to fight (in which case, if he is competent, you should be winning the skirmish easily anyway), or when you are capping shrines, or when you are finishing off an opponent who survived your chain. 4v4 skirmishes that outpressure the other team occurs in RA and TA, not AB. You say 'just hitting your chain on the contact of an enemy team', I tell you that's stupid. You do not engage an enemy team 4v4 because that is not your strength - you fight them 8v4, or 6v4, or when they are all low on HP, or when they have no Monk, etc - but you do not fight them in an even 4v4.
You'd be exceedingly stupid to unload a chain on someone who might be carrying blocking stances. Let me tell you: outside of Distortion and possibly other stances / skills I have not thought of off the top of my head, the blocking stances in the game are on Rangers and Warriors. Anyone with a blocking stance is necessarily part Ranger or part Warrior. More to the point: if you see a primary Ranger you can expect him to have a blocking stance. If you see a primary Warrior he usually does not have a blocking stance, unless he is running a bad build. /R characters are rare, and usually do not have a blocking stance. /W characters are fairly common, and if the primary class is a caster type then they usually do have a blocking stance.
Learn to pick targets, because that's how you avoid seeing 'blocked' on your screen.
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Yet Hidden Caltrops is more spammable, cheaper, can lead into your chain and is useful outside of simply spiking?
More spammable but so what? Cheaper but so what? Can lead into your chain, so can Shadow Prison and Dark Prison. The only real advantage Hidden Caltrops has over Shadow Prison and Dark Prison in AB is you being able to snare people without spiking them, a significant advantage yes but compensated for by Shadow Prison / Dark Prison's teleport effect.
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Except more removable and harder to keep up. Shadow Prison also has an aftercast making it take even longer to execute Shadow Prison -> Black Mantis, and you're using two skills costing 15 energy making you easy to spot out for an interrupt on Mantis.
Again, Hidden Caltrops is spammable, cheap and can be cancelled without much trouble. You also still get the crippling if it gets removed, with it being completely maintainable. Your combo isn't available 100% of the time at all.
Interrupt on Black Mantis Thrust? Only going to happen if you are for some reason attacking a Ranger (gg at your target selection), or if there is a Mesmer somewhere nearby with Cry of Frustration or similar skills (then why didn't you spike the Mesmer? He is a soft target and is unlikely to have blocking stances, there are few better targets). Rarely happens in any case, especially since Tiger Stance accelerates all the skills and makes them harder to interrupt. Shadow Prison is typically not removable before you land Black Mantis Thrust.
By the way -
Chain costs 20 energy to start since you need to activate Tiger Stance.
Your combo is usually available (12-second cooldown [you CAN spike without Tiger Stance, it's just a little slower] if using both teleports, no cooldown if using Assassin's Promise).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Besides, it's only going to be accurate if you get 24 players, or 6 teams to successfully sync together and not be clueless. You can try to get them if you want, but I request a more accurate setting to test either of our tactics.
You do not have to sync 24 players. All you have to do is play repeatedly. If you play 10 games and win 8 games while I win 4, then you can reasonably say your strategy is better than mine. If you win 8 and I win 7, then things are not so clear (there are probably ways to treat this mathematically, but I can't be bothered). Then we play another 10 games. Now if you win 16 and I win 14, you can again argue that your strategy is better.
In AB games you control only your team composition, and that's how it should stay. If your strategy works only if you sync 12 players, then it's like saying Monk builds in RA don't need condition removal because you should 'learn to sync a Necro with Foul Feast' - Lol??
If you are leading the party I don't care what you run, I just want to see how your strategy works out. Feel free to run Bull's Strike on a Ranger if you want, or IA + Pin Down if you think it's better, or A/Mo with Heal Area if you like it. I don't care. I'm just there to appreciate how effective your strategy is.
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Considering I've also seen a rank 58 guild use some bar that has damage sorta like a Flare Spammer which is infinately weaker to a Caretakers' Charge midliner, and all sorts of wacky shit on observe. Not seen [sup] run Mo/P's using "Make Haste!", "Never Surrender!" and "Brace Yourself!" I assume?
Show me the rank 58 guild that uses Flare spam in an AT or tournament match when victory really matters. If you can't, I'll show you one where Superior runes are present under those same conditions.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
21 Nov 2008 at 00:35 - 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
Key word highlighted. If you are playing an Elementalist in a capping - not rolling - AB team, you do not use Shatterstone. Shatterstone Elementalists do not make decisions. AP Elementalists do.
How don't they make decisions now? How do they lack the ability to solo cap?
How is a Shatterstone Elementalist a bar built for killing and only killing?
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If you are playing an Elementalist in a capping team then yes you take into account shrine defending and entire map movement. That is your duty, because if you choose to run off and cap another shrine as opposed to fight, your team follows you, and if you choose to stay and fight (and possibly get rolled), your team stays with you.
And if your team follows you, you get the other team capping another shrine which could also be a key shrine. For example, if you were holding the shrine which held the Battle Cry buff, would you really want an enemy team to gain that?
Battle Cry is an incredibly strong buff in Alliance Battles, consdiering it allows a movement buff, an attack speed buff and a skill recharge buff for 60 seconds, and bringing skills like Dash into that equation you have some massive speed. Letting the opposing team capture that shrine gives them that advantage aswell, so why would you send someone off to capture another shrine when you can have them running something else and defending that shrine, making the enemy team losing that benefit and giving you a much higher chance of taking out that team, delaying their shrine capture rate in the process?
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If you are running IA Ranger, Earth Shaker, Melandru's Shot Ranger and Monk, and I have two Monks and two Fire Elementalists, and we are the only four players on the map, I bet you anything I will outcap you (that's even with your ability to roll my team 4v4, because I am not going to get caught). If I do not have two Monks + two Fire Elementalists - which is, I admit, something I specced against you - then I will still have something like Monk, Channeling + Restoration Rit, Sin and Fire Elementalist, and I will still outcap you, because I can cap two shrines at a time while you can only cap one.
Yet I will probably roll your team, giving me an oppertunity to capture faster with decent use of Distracting Shot and Bulls' Strike. There is an AoE knockdown, poison and burning being spread on a large radius and the extra bleeding from the other Ranger.
Keep in mind that it will take 20 seconds to capture an empty shrine from scratch, and 40 seconds to capture a shrine that has been captured by the enemy team, excluding the time it takes to kill. Depending on how your team of 3 play against my team of 4, that is a huge time gap in which I may have pushed you towards that shrine.
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As for having to kill as well, yes - there will be times when you are forced to fight. But such times are rare, and when they do arise and the Elementalist chooses to fight, his team, other teams and NPCs do the fighting for him. There are two other players in the team supported by a Monk, more than enough to roll stragglers. Against a coordinated team like the one you mentioned, the Elementalist will choose not to fight, and you can have the shrine if you so desire because the Elementalist knows he can outcap you.
When I'm talking about stragglers, I'm talking about single targets. Either way, keep in mind that I have the ability to split off my own team too. I could send the Melshot Ranger after your Elementalist that is capping and screw him over. Keep in mind I also have an IA Ranger present, so I can also send that Ranger off to another shrine to take out your other Elementalist. If you have two Monks simply holding me back, I also have my Monk and my Hammer Warrior up. A Ranger can hold against an Elementalist fine, but I can send anything around the place anyway. Your Elementalists, however, limited to capturing shrines aren't useful when they're being hassled by certain things like Monks, Rangers, Mesmers and maybe Warriors.
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Shadow Prison and Dark Prison qualify as a ranged snares as well. Spammable, not so much (although if you are running both the odds are at least one of them is cooled at any time; if you are running only one then you have AP to recharge Dark Prison). More spammable does not matter, you usually do not have to snare more than one player at a time. Weapon of Warding helps of course, but you are sacrificing AP and teleports by running WoW. Definitely not a good idea.
Spammability actually does matter. If it gets removed, you're a sitting duck for 25 seconds unless someone comes and hexes and you happen to get a Mantis off. I was also talking about Weapon of Warding on the Elementalist.
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I challenge you to post two screenshots, when you first engage a NPC shrine and when you finally manage to kill the Monk. I will post a similar screenshot of myself engaging a NPC shrine and then killing the Monk. Let me tell you that I can do it without taking more than 5 seconds, and I seriously doubt you can match that time. Do you accept the challenge? If not I won't bother.
I don't mean human Monks - NPC Monks.
A Fire Elementalist could clear a shrine faster than pretty much anything, true, but outside of that their use is small. I'd take something that is multi-functional over something that is one-dimensional.
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What are you talking about pressure? This is AB. There is no pressure. Good teams avoid fights if they cannot win, they do not stay to get out-pressured. You are only going to be autoattacking as a Sin when the Elementalist makes a decision to fight (in which case, if he is competent, you should be winning the skirmish easily anyway), or when you are capping shrines, or when you are finishing off an opponent who survived your chain. 4v4 skirmishes that outpressure the other team occurs in RA and TA, not AB. You say 'just hitting your chain on the contact of an enemy team', I tell you that's stupid. You do not engage an enemy team 4v4 because that is not your strength - you fight them 8v4, or 6v4, or when they are all low on HP, or when they have no Monk, etc - but you do not fight them in an even 4v4.
Then in that case there is no pressure in PvE.
Good teams do avoid fights they can't win. There is no such thing as a "competent 'Sin", but there is such thing as a "terrible Monk". On several counts have I managed to turn a team to a wipe by outwitting an enemy Monk on a Shovesin, but why? Because the Monk is terrible. First time, fair enough. Second time, s/he should be using Guardian on himself a lot considering the cast time on Shove is 3/4 and Shadow Walk is a stance, and if I couldn't get a spike off on that player, I'm doing nothing. The same goes for all other 'Sin bars. Heck, I barely ever run bars that can't combat certain things with ease. Always room for a bit of sufficiency on all characters.
Sometimes an even 4v4 is the answer. You're making an enemy team sit there with the possibility of wiping them or the other way round, either way a skirmish can decide a game in itself.
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You'd be exceedingly stupid to unload a chain on someone who might be carrying blocking stances. Let me tell you: outside of Distortion and possibly other stances / skills I have not thought of off the top of my head, the blocking stances in the game are on Rangers and Warriors. Anyone with a blocking stance is necessarily part Ranger or part Warrior. More to the point: if you see a primary Ranger you can expect him to have a blocking stance. If you see a primary Warrior he usually does not have a blocking stance, unless he is running a bad build. /R characters are rare, and usually do not have a blocking stance. /W characters are fairly common, and if the primary class is a caster type then they usually do have a blocking stance.
That being true, if a Monk is using one of those things how are you going to kill anyway? Hope the Monk is terrible?
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Learn to pick targets, because that's how you avoid seeing 'blocked' on your screen.
Why are you telling me this?
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More spammable but so what? Cheaper but so what? Can lead into your chain, so can Shadow Prison and Dark Prison. The only real advantage Hidden Caltrops has over Shadow Prison and Dark Prison in AB is you being able to snare people without spiking them, a significant advantage yes but compensated for by Shadow Prison / Dark Prison's teleport effect.
Compare 12 recharge to 25 and 30 recharge. Holding someone back is a powerful thing to do at the right times.
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Interrupt on Black Mantis Thrust? Only going to happen if you are for some reason attacking a Ranger (gg at your target selection), or if there is a Mesmer somewhere nearby with Cry of Frustration or similar skills (then why didn't you spike the Mesmer? He is a soft target and is unlikely to have blocking stances, there are few better targets). Rarely happens in any case, especially since Tiger Stance accelerates all the skills and makes them harder to interrupt. Shadow Prison is typically not removable before you land Black Mantis Thrust.
Maybe you're just a bad Ranger. If for some reason that Ranger isn't paying attention to the Assassin, bearing the ability to save someone's energy or 3 points, that Ranger isn't worth his salt.
You don't need to attack something to notice them, you know. Battlefield awareness is win, maybe it's your problem with that.
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You do not have to sync 24 players. All you have to do is play repeatedly. If you play 10 games and win 8 games while I win 4, then you can reasonably say your strategy is better than mine. If you win 8 and I win 7, then things are not so clear (there are probably ways to treat this mathematically, but I can't be bothered). Then we play another 10 games. Now if you win 16 and I win 14, you can again argue that your strategy is better.
That won't make either of our arguments effective. The win streaks with even the stupidest tactics I've had, and many others have had easily voids that.
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In AB games you control only your team composition, and that's how it should stay. If your strategy works only if you sync 12 players, then it's like saying Monk builds in RA don't need condition removal because you should 'learn to sync a Necro with Foul Feast' - Lol??
So in other words you don't care how good the other team is? You could play Chess with a 1 month old baby and say a tactic works better, it's pretty much the same.
Your strategies and shit heavily depends on how good your enemies are, and how they shift their own tactics. With lack of communication between teams, you really think they're going to efficiently combat you?
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Show me the rank 58 guild that uses Flare spam in an AT or tournament match when victory really matters. If you can't, I'll show you one where Superior runes are present under those same conditions.
In tournaments? Not seen that. I do believe that Divine ran a Searing Flames Flagrunner in an mAT final, though.
Unreal Havoc
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2007
21 Nov 2008 at 00:46 - 68
Such walls of text, my eyes are bleeding!
Seriously, all this QQ about Assassins Promise, just pointless. It's not a good skill because its cons outweigh its pros when there are much more useful elites you can take on your Assassins bar instead.
For those who don't already know, in AB's you get 3 points per opposing player kill and 1*[Number of shrines held] points every 7 seconds. This means that one player kill is equivalent to one shrines contribution over 21 seconds. Just some numbers to think about for the people saying that capping is the only way to win AB's.
Also even with your limited bar space over four people, it isn't terribly difficult to construct a fairly balanced team build for AB's that's capable of both quickly capturing shrines and making key kills on out of position targets. You only really need one elementalist with some AoE to wipe shrines at a reasonable level. After that any specific designated shrine-cappers become fairly useless. While you may be able to shave a couple of seconds of cap time with a specialised team, it's probably much better to balance your team around both elements of AB's, that is capping and skirmishing.
Ultimately you'd probably want a team looking like:
Elementalist, Ranger, Monk and an optional fourth.
X Cytherea X
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Feb 2006
A/Mo
21 Nov 2008 at 01:10 - 71
yes, capping and killing are both viable. pick a role that suits you.
in any case, certain ab builds have a higher fun factor, and greater sense of accomplishment (when you overcome their weaknesses and blow shit up the way they are intended) than your safe/conservative builds.
Jeydra
Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
21 Nov 2008 at 01:25 - 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
How don't they make decisions now? How do they lack the ability to solo cap?
How is a Shatterstone Elementalist a bar built for killing and only killing?
Shatterstone Elementalists do not make decisions. AP Elementalists do. Shatterstone Elementalists lack the ability to solocap (don't believe me, prove it by posting a screenshot of you solo'ing the Elite Elementalist shrine on Etnaran Isles with a Shatterstone Elemenetlaist, preferably in 5 seconds). AP Elementalists do not. Shatterstone Elementalists are not built for killing and only killing. AP Elementalists are. What's your point?
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Originally Posted by Tyla
And if your team follows you, you get the other team capping another shrine which could also be a key shrine. For example, if you were holding the shrine which held the Battle Cry buff, would you really want an enemy team to gain that?
Battle Cry is an incredibly strong buff in Alliance Battles, consdiering it allows a movement buff, an attack speed buff and a skill recharge buff for 60 seconds, and bringing skills like Dash into that equation you have some massive speed. Letting the opposing team capture that shrine gives them that advantage aswell, so why would you send someone off to capture another shrine when you can have them running something else and defending that shrine, making the enemy team losing that benefit and giving you a much higher chance of taking out that team, delaying their shrine capture rate in the process?
Buddy, if you consider the Battle Cry shrine the most important of the shrines on the map, I rest my case. Any competent AB'er will tell you that the Res shrine is the most important shrine on the map, and if you are really going to cap the Battle Cry shrine instead of the Res shrine first on Saltspray, good luck to you.
Why let the opposing capture that shrine, you ask? Well why not? By splitting you accelerate your own capping. If you hold only the Battle Cry shrine on Etnaran Isles while I hold all other 6 shrines, you are going to lose even though the Battle Cry is a powerful buff. And be warned, if you choose to defend a shrine you are delaying your own capping while not really affecting that of another team (unless they're bad and attack a shrine defended both by a team and by NPCs). The only shrine worth defending in AB is the Res Shrine. If I play you and you choose to defend Battle Cry, that together with its peripheral position on the map, I'd happily let you have the shrine and take every other one on the map.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Yet I will probably roll your team, giving me an oppertunity to capture faster with decent use of Distracting Shot and Bulls' Strike. There is an AoE knockdown, poison and burning being spread on a large radius and the extra bleeding from the other Ranger.
Keep in mind that it will take 20 seconds to capture an empty shrine from scratch, and 40 seconds to capture a shrine that has been captured by the enemy team, excluding the time it takes to kill. Depending on how your team of 3 play against my team of 4, that is a huge time gap in which I may have pushed you towards that shrine.
Give me a good reason why I should get caught. I have shadowsteps, you do not. You have speedboosts, so do I. If I see you coming at a shrine and I cannot capture the shrine before you arrive, I leave. If I see you coming at a shrine and I can capture the shrine before you arrive, I stay - and watch your reactions as the added NPCs turn a 4v4 to 7v4 and your team gets rolled instead. If I have only 3 players on the shrine as opposed to 4, and 4 players come at my team, I leave. I'm not so stupid as to get caught in a powerplay situation when I can help it.
By the way there's a good chance that later in the game my team rolls yours, because I'll have a larger assortment of NPCs compared to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
When I'm talking about stragglers, I'm talking about single targets. Either way, keep in mind that I have the ability to split off my own team too. I could send the Melshot Ranger after your Elementalist that is capping and screw him over. Keep in mind I also have an IA Ranger present, so I can also send that Ranger off to another shrine to take out your other Elementalist. If you have two Monks simply holding me back, I also have my Monk and my Hammer Warrior up. A Ranger can hold against an Elementalist fine, but I can send anything around the place anyway. Your Elementalists, however, limited to capturing shrines aren't useful when they're being hassled by certain things like Monks, Rangers, Mesmers and maybe Warriors.
Lol I'm going to invoke holymasamune's words when he closed the original Mesmer thread.
Stop theorycrafting and tell me flat out: are you willing or not to play a few AB games with me, or I with you? If you are not, then that's the end of the matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Spammability actually does matter. If it gets removed, you're a sitting duck for 25 seconds unless someone comes and hexes and you happen to get a Mantis off. I was also talking about Weapon of Warding on the Elementalist.
You have Dark Prison on your bar. Why are you not using it?
Why are you using Shadow Prison on someone who is going to get WoW'ed? Why are you even fighting in the first place? Do you get nothing of what I have been saying? If it's my team of cappers vs. your team of rollers, I am not engaging you in a teamfight unless I have a heavy advantage (other players being in the vicinity, NPC advantage, etc).
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Originally Posted by Tyla
A Fire Elementalist could clear a shrine faster than pretty much anything, true, but outside of that their use is small. I'd take something that is multi-functional over something that is one-dimensional.
And you'd rather put Fall Back and Barbed Spear on Monks so they can not only heal the team, they can contribute party-wide speedboosts as well as DPS?
Think before you answer this point. Yes the above is stupid. Why is it stupid? Because a Monk that concentrates on healing the team is far more valuable than one that heals and gives speedboosts and deals damage. Why is he more valuable? Because a Monk of the second kind cannot heal anywhere as effectively as the first. Why does that matter? Because when push comes to shove, you need the Monk to be able to heal well. How does this relate to the above? By giving up the Fire Elementalist, your speed at capping is greatly reduced. This is not a slight disadvantage, this is a significant disadvantage, and a huge one on Kaanai / Ancestral. I'll keep my Fire Elementalists the same way they are for the same reason I don't tell my Monk to give up Patient Spirit and put in Spear of Light so he can deal some damage and be 'multi-functional instead of one-dimensional'.
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Good teams do avoid fights they can't win. There is no such thing as a "competent 'Sin", but there is such thing as a "terrible Monk". On several counts have I managed to turn a team to a wipe by outwitting an enemy Monk on a Shovesin, but why? Because the Monk is terrible. First time, fair enough. Second time, s/he should be using Guardian on himself a lot considering the cast time on Shove is 3/4 and Shadow Walk is a stance, and if I couldn't get a spike off on that player, I'm doing nothing. The same goes for all other 'Sin bars. Heck, I barely ever run bars that can't combat certain things with ease. Always room for a bit of sufficiency on all characters.
Sometimes an even 4v4 is the answer. You're making an enemy team sit there with the possibility of wiping them or the other way round, either way a skirmish can decide a game in itself.
Of course there is such a thing as a 'competent Sin'. You just proved you are not one though, because you 1) spiked a target with blocking stances, 2) spiked a target who gets WoW'ed soon into the spike and 3) somehow managed to use only one of the two teleports on your bar.
The even 4v4 is something to be avoided like the plague for my capping team. You, with the rolling team, should welcome it.
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Originally Posted by Tyla
That being true, if a Monk is using one of those things how are you going to kill anyway? Hope the Monk is terrible?
Don't kill him. Duuuuuuhhhhhhhhh. Only attack him anyway if he's going to die soon (maybe he ress'ed into two teams at the Res Shrine, or someone's Dazed him, or whatever).
By the way 'how are you going to kill a Mo/W with an Assassin' is something you can ask moriz, or any person who plays RA. If you are an Assassin and the other team has a Mo/W, probably with blocking stances or Shield Bash, what should you do? Hands up anyone who says "I'll spike him anyway".
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Why are you telling me this?
Because you mentioned spiking a Ranger or something that might be carrying blocking stances.
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Compare 12 recharge to 25 and 30 recharge. Holding someone back is a powerful thing to do at the right times.
Indeed. What's your point?
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Maybe you're just a bad Ranger. If for some reason that Ranger isn't paying attention to the Assassin, bearing the ability to save someone's energy or 3 points, that Ranger isn't worth his salt.
You don't need to attack something to notice them, you know. Battlefield awareness is win, maybe it's your problem with that.
Alright. I will give you another challenge. You will play Ranger, and carry three Monk heroes. I will play Assassin, and carry three Monk heroes. I will pick one of your heroes (or yourself) at random and spike him. Your task is to DShot my Black Mantis Thrust every time. If you manage to do so, I'll concede this point. If you do not, you admit you're wrong.
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Originally Posted by Tyla
That won't make either of our arguments effective. The win streaks with even the stupidest tactics I've had, and many others have had easily voids that.
Oh really? I challenge you to play 10 games with your A/Mo healing bar. Post here your number of wins. Then play 10 games with your R/W Bull's Strike bar. Post here your number of wins. You are basically telling me that it's an even chance the first total will be equal to or larger than the second, and that builds don't matter, so you're free to run 4 players with empty bars if you so want. I challenge you to prove it.
I have now given you four challenges that I will repeat here:
1. Outcap a Fire Elementalist. You conceded this could not be done.
2. Play with me in AB, alternating your strategies with mine. You won't agree to do this unless you sync 24 players into an AB game.
3. DShot my Black Mantis Thrust every time.
4. Make an equal percentage of wins with A/Mo healer as R/W Bull's Strike. You will probably pour ridicule on this one, because it is a ridiculous thing to ask you to do - but I've only asked you to do this ridiculous thing because you've made an equally ridiculous claim that tactics and builds don't matter.
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Originally Posted by Tyla
So in other words you don't care how good the other team is? You could play Chess with a 1 month old baby and say a tactic works better, it's pretty much the same.
Your strategies and shit heavily depends on how good your enemies are, and how they shift their own tactics. With lack of communication between teams, you really think they're going to efficiently combat you?
Your strategies rely heavily on how good your enemies are too, in case you haven't noticed. You are relying entirely on actually catching the capping team, and that they somehow agree to fight you even though they will lose.
Pardon me, but it seems to me that you are the one who assumes more about the enemy team, because I've planned out my strategy against NPCs, not humans.
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Originally Posted by Tyla
In tournaments? Not seen that. I do believe that Divine ran a Searing Flames Flagrunner in an mAT final, though.
What does Searing Flames flagger have to do with Superior runes?
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Anything for shits and giggles.
Agree.
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Originally Posted by xDust II
Also even with your limited bar space over four people, it isn't terribly difficult to construct a fairly balanced team build for AB's that's capable of both quickly capturing shrines and making key kills on out of position targets. You only really need one elementalist with some AoE to wipe shrines at a reasonable level. After that any specific designated shrine-cappers become fairly useless. While you may be able to shave a couple of seconds of cap time with a specialised team, it's probably much better to balance your team around both elements of AB's, that is capping and skirmishing.
Pretty much what I've said: you run the Elementalist for solocapping powers, Monk to keep the Elementalist alive (and in case of any skirmishes), Sin to pick off stragglers with and optional fourth. If you can have only one player, use an Elementalist. If you can have two, use Elementalist + Monk. If you can have three, use Elementalist + Monk + Sin. If you can have four, then add a Ritualist. That's in the ideal case though. In practice, any two players + Elementalist + Monk suffices.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
21 Nov 2008 at 08:27 - 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
Shatterstone Elementalists do not make decisions. AP Elementalists do. Shatterstone Elementalists lack the ability to solocap (don't believe me, prove it by posting a screenshot of you solo'ing the Elite Elementalist shrine on Etnaran Isles with a Shatterstone Elemenetlaist, preferably in 5 seconds). AP Elementalists do not. Shatterstone Elementalists are not built for killing and only killing. AP Elementalists are. What's your point?
So because Fire Nuking Elementalists have the ability to nuke any shrine, they "make choices"?
Just because the Shatterstone Elementalist can't take out all NPC's in less than 10 seconds means it can't solocap and doesn't make decisions?
Nice joke. Oh, and if you do look at Shatterstone Elementalists they do provide the ability to kill. Same goes for a Mind Blaster Elementalist.
Infact, I don't think I've ever opposed how fast a Fire Elementalist can clear a shrine.
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Buddy, if you consider the Battle Cry shrine the most important of the shrines on the map, I rest my case. Any competent AB'er will tell you that the Res shrine is the most important shrine on the map, and if you are really going to cap the Battle Cry shrine instead of the Res shrine first on Saltspray, good luck to you.
Never said it was the most important, said it was giving you an incredible buff. I'd still start taking the Battle Cry shrines on Saltspray, however. If I capture that shrine, take out the opposing team on the res shrine or anywhere around there if they didn't move towards the Dragon Shrine, I'd be capping those 3 shrines quite easily.
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Why let the opposing capture that shrine, you ask? Well why not? By splitting you accelerate your own capping. If you hold only the Battle Cry shrine on Etnaran Isles while I hold all other 6 shrines, you are going to lose even though the Battle Cry is a powerful buff. And be warned, if you choose to defend a shrine you are delaying your own capping while not really affecting that of another team (unless they're bad and attack a shrine defended both by a team and by NPCs). The only shrine worth defending in AB is the Res Shrine. If I play you and you choose to defend Battle Cry, that together with its peripheral position on the map, I'd happily let you have the shrine and take every other one on the map.
If I'm holding the Battle Cry Shrine on Etnaran and you have 6 shrines, then I'm up against a mob and my other team is either doing f*ck all or trying to fight it themselves. However, just because I'm defending the Battle Cry Shrine doesn't mean I won't be making splits with either Ranger.
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Give me a good reason why I should get caught. I have shadowsteps, you do not. You have speedboosts, so do I. If I see you coming at a shrine and I cannot capture the shrine before you arrive, I leave. If I see you coming at a shrine and I can capture the shrine before you arrive, I stay - and watch your reactions as the added NPCs turn a 4v4 to 7v4 and your team gets rolled instead. If I have only 3 players on the shrine as opposed to 4, and 4 players come at my team, I leave. I'm not so stupid as to get caught in a powerplay situation when I can help it.
I thought you were talking about the Elementalist solo capping here? In that case, it would be 3 NPC's + you versus my team. Don't forget that the NPC's don't add much to the equation except that possible Faintheartedness if you're on the Necromancer Shrine, which should be D-Shotted and Veiled considering there are 3 Necromancers.
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By the way there's a good chance that later in the game my team rolls yours, because I'll have a larger assortment of NPCs compared to you.
And your NPC's are the only damage output. I'm simply moving out of AoE.
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Lol I'm going to invoke holymasamune's words when he closed the original Mesmer thread.
Stop theorycrafting and tell me flat out: are you willing or not to play a few AB games with me, or I with you? If you are not, then that's the end of the matter.
If you find some way to accurately test each of our tactics against a team that changes tactics and has players who know what they're doing, yes. Think about it, this is Alliance Battles where all of the people who don't understand much are. I really only see a good bar rarely there, let alone tactical thinking.
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You have Dark Prison on your bar. Why are you not using it?
Why are you using Shadow Prison on someone who is going to get WoW'ed? Why are you even fighting in the first place? Do you get nothing of what I have been saying? If it's my team of cappers vs. your team of rollers, I am not engaging you in a teamfight unless I have a heavy advantage (other players being in the vicinity, NPC advantage, etc).
And Dark Prison is going to change this how? It doesn't veil the fact I could just as easily send off a D-Shot and a Savage Shot to worry out the duration of the skill or take out your chain for a while anyway.
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And you'd rather put Fall Back and Barbed Spear on Monks so they can not only heal the team, they can contribute party-wide speedboosts as well as DPS?
Think before you answer this point. Yes the above is stupid. Why is it stupid? Because a Monk that concentrates on healing the team is far more valuable than one that heals and gives speedboosts and deals damage. Why is he more valuable? Because a Monk of the second kind cannot heal anywhere as effectively as the first. Why does that matter? Because when push comes to shove, you need the Monk to be able to heal well. How does this relate to the above? By giving up the Fire Elementalist, your speed at capping is greatly reduced. This is not a slight disadvantage, this is a significant disadvantage, and a huge one on Kaanai / Ancestral. I'll keep my Fire Elementalists the same way they are for the same reason I don't tell my Monk to give up Patient Spirit and put in Spear of Light so he can deal some damage and be 'multi-functional instead of one-dimensional'.
Okay, I'll give you an example of multi-functional. A common Monk bar has hex removal, blocks, condition removal and heals. If this was one dimensional, then it wouldn't be able to do much outside of one of the above.
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Of course there is such a thing as a 'competent Sin'. You just proved you are not one though, because you 1) spiked a target with blocking stances, 2) spiked a target who gets WoW'ed soon into the spike and 3) somehow managed to use only one of the two teleports on your bar.
I don't need "target choosing practice". I'm merely pointing out the scenarios of which you'll be unable to spike because another team isn't completely clueless. Tell me, if there is a Fortress Monk on the other team and you feel like getting a spike down because it seems the Fortress Monk is down, you can't. The Fortress Monk will either Patient Spirit (find me a 'Sin bar that will kill beyond that), Guardian or stance up if it can.
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The even 4v4 is something to be avoided like the plague for my capping team. You, with the rolling team, should welcome it.
So what do you have two Monks for when you're apparently avoiding them half the time? What? Bring three Elementalists instead?
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Don't kill him. Duuuuuuhhhhhhhhh. Only attack him anyway if he's going to die soon (maybe he ress'ed into two teams at the Res Shrine, or someone's Dazed him, or whatever).
By the way 'how are you going to kill a Mo/W with an Assassin' is something you can ask moriz, or any person who plays RA. If you are an Assassin and the other team has a Mo/W, probably with blocking stances or Shield Bash, what should you do? Hands up anyone who says "I'll spike him anyway".
Let me further elaborate. If there is a Monk on the other team, you should forget about it anyway because a simple heal could kill a 'Sin spike, let alone a prot.
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Indeed. What's your point?
Constant snare, so my chain may be ready. I might be keeping someone behind, say a Monk. Think about it.
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Alright. I will give you another challenge. You will play Ranger, and carry three Monk heroes. I will play Assassin, and carry three Monk heroes. I will pick one of your heroes (or yourself) at random and spike him. Your task is to DShot my Black Mantis Thrust every time. If you manage to do so, I'll concede this point. If you do not, you admit you're wrong.
It all depends on what happens. Either way, if I had three Monks why would I want to waste a D-Shot on Mantis? If you don't play predictively (i.e run in mash), I could also use Savage Shot to further divert your chain, possibly interrupting Mantis. Either way, if I disrupt your chain, I've got it in the bag anyway. I'm just wondering though, why would I want to disrupt your chain when my Monk should be keeping an eye on the battlefield? Guardian, Disciplined Stance and maybe Shield Stance should be more than enough for me not to use up a D-Shot.
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Oh really? I challenge you to play 10 games with your A/Mo healing bar. Post here your number of wins. Then play 10 games with your R/W Bull's Strike bar. Post here your number of wins. You are basically telling me that it's an even chance the first total will be equal to or larger than the second, and that builds don't matter, so you're free to run 4 players with empty bars if you so want. I challenge you to prove it.
Yes, I'm telling you builds don't matter. I play Alliance Battles because it's the playing grounds for idiots and I can get away with practically anything, including using an A/Mo healer.
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1. Outcap a Fire Elementalist. You conceded this could not be done.
I've never actually gone against that statement.
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2. Play with me in AB, alternating your strategies with mine. You won't agree to do this unless you sync 24 players into an AB game.
Exactly. Tell me, if I could get away with running A/Mo healers and I even remember at one point sitting near teams spamming Healsig under Frenzy with another person to get killed and we still kept getting wins.
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3. DShot my Black Mantis Thrust every time.
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4. Make an equal percentage of wins with A/Mo healer as R/W Bull's Strike. You will probably pour ridicule on this one, because it is a ridiculous thing to ask you to do - but I've only asked you to do this ridiculous thing because you've made an equally ridiculous claim that tactics and builds don't matter.
I've not claimed builds and tactics do not matter if you're playing to win. If I did want to win, however, I would be using real skillbars, a full party of competent (i.e non-pug) players using those bars and I'd be syncing.
Why? For the best chance I can get.
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Your strategies rely heavily on how good your enemies are too, in case you haven't noticed. You are relying entirely on actually catching the capping team, and that they somehow agree to fight you even though they will lose.
Pardon me, but it seems to me that you are the one who assumes more about the enemy team, because I've planned out my strategy against NPCs, not humans.
It's not like AB is going to go far. The only people that would give my team trouble are people who run Defy Pain, 100 block stances, 55HP Monks and all of those other bars you could call griefing bars, which would be ignored anyway.
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What does Searing Flames flagger have to do with Superior runes?
Do you really think a Searing Flames Flagrunner is comparable to a Rt/A Flagrunner? If you were really going for it, I wouldn't go for an SF Flagrunner.
Anyway, I say we just put an end to this discussion in this thread, because it's completely irrelevent. If you wish to continue the discussion, take it to the forum made for Alliance Battles or even the thread in there based on its tactics.
So because Fire Nuking Elementalists have the ability to nuke any shrine, they "make choices"?
Just because the Shatterstone Elementalist can't take out all NPC's in less than 10 seconds means it can't solocap and doesn't make decisions?
Nice joke. Oh, and if you do look at Shatterstone Elementalists they do provide the ability to kill. Same goes for a Mind Blaster Elementalist.
Infact, I don't think I've ever opposed how fast a Fire Elementalist can clear a shrine.
If you don't think a Shatterstone Elementalist can cap a shrine faster than a Fire Elementalist, why are you posting? Or Mind Blast, for that matter.
Fire Elementalists have the ability to nuke any shrine, and therefore they make the choice. I don't mean choices as in 'I choose to be stupid and tank this Sin chain' or 'I choose this Monk to attack'. I mean choices like 'we fight now' or 'we cap this shrine not this one' or 'run for your lives' or similar. Shatterstone Elementalists cannot make the same choice because they do not have the similar ability to lead the team - they do not have big, NPC-wiping damage.
No Shatterstone Elementalists cannot solocap. Like I said, if you think they can, prove it by posting a screenshot of you solo'ing the Elite Elementalist shrine with a Shatterstone Elementalist build without taking an unbearably long time (a Fire Elementalist can do it in 5 seconds, don't take more than twice that amount).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Never said it was the most important, said it was giving you an incredible buff. I'd still start taking the Battle Cry shrines on Saltspray, however. If I capture that shrine, take out the opposing team on the res shrine or anywhere around there if they didn't move towards the Dragon Shrine, I'd be capping those 3 shrines quite easily.
Up to you. I cap Res shrines because I know that so long as I hold it, I can take you out because reinforcements will constantly spawn for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
If I'm holding the Battle Cry Shrine on Etnaran and you have 6 shrines, then I'm up against a mob and my other team is either doing f*ck all or trying to fight it themselves. However, just because I'm defending the Battle Cry Shrine doesn't mean I won't be making splits with either Ranger.
Or you are being a noob and choosing to defend the Battle Cry shrine. What's the difference? Maybe the other teams agree with you and think it's a good idea to defend the Elite Elementalist and Elite Warrior shrines. I still have a 4-to-3 shrine advantage over you and will win.
Go ahead and split Rangers, it's not like they can solocap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
And your NPC's are the only damage output. I'm simply moving out of AoE.
I didn't know NPCs had AoE damage. Actually I didn't know the teammates I have use AoE damage. I didn't know I was so stupid to actually use AoE damage in a straight fight. I didn't know I had only AoE skills on my bar. Hm.
So what if NPCs are my only damage output? Damage is damage is damage. Pre VoD change you could win at VoD using NPCs as your damage output. Are you going to say NPC damage is negligible? Lol if you do. The Elementalist NPCs especially deal considerable damage. Do you want to fight a 6v4 battle where I have two NPCs + the Fire Elementalist? Although if this does happen in a real game I'd probably choose to continue capping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
If you find some way to accurately test each of our tactics against a team that changes tactics and has players who know what they're doing, yes. Think about it, this is Alliance Battles where all of the people who don't understand much are. I really only see a good bar rarely there, let alone tactical thinking.
Stop coming up with excuses. Playing is the easiest way to tell. There are a lot of variations - but averaged over enough games everything evens out. This is the Central Limit Theorem, and if you are unfamiliar with it I suggest you Wiki it.
There are good players in AB and there are bad players, and if you play enough games you play them all. After ten games I think we will have enough material to decide on whose is superior. If you are going to require you have 24 good players in an AB game, then I'll tell you wishful thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
And Dark Prison is going to change this how? It doesn't veil the fact I could just as easily send off a D-Shot and a Savage Shot to worry out the duration of the skill or take out your chain for a while anyway.
So I take it you do agree to my challenge! Perfect. What time is convenient for you? Do it soon, because I do not have much time myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Okay, I'll give you an example of multi-functional. A common Monk bar has hex removal, blocks, condition removal and heals. If this was one dimensional, then it wouldn't be able to do much outside of one of the above.
By your logic of multi-functional instead of single-functional, a Monk bar with WoH, Cure Hex, Dismiss Condition, Guardian, Barbed Spear, Bane Signet, Fall Back and Zealous Anthem is multi-functional, because it has hex removal, blocks, condition removal, heals, condition pressure, damage, speed boost and energy for allies.
Why can't you see that I am arguing here that specializing the Elementalist to Fire and capping is much more important than making him a jack of all trades?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
I don't need "target choosing practice". I'm merely pointing out the scenarios of which you'll be unable to spike because another team isn't completely clueless. Tell me, if there is a Fortress Monk on the other team and you feel like getting a spike down because it seems the Fortress Monk is down, you can't. The Fortress Monk will either Patient Spirit (find me a 'Sin bar that will kill beyond that), Guardian or stance up if it can.
Then don't spike him. What's your point? You've basically given an awesome reason to spike the Monk: because 'you feel like getting a spike down'. Awesome reason, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
So what do you have two Monks for when you're apparently avoiding them half the time? What? Bring three Elementalists instead?
To heal NPC damage. And to heal whatever damage when you do choose to fight (eg. the 6v4 above). I don't get how you can actually say something as stupid as the quote above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Let me further elaborate. If there is a Monk on the other team, you should forget about it anyway because a simple heal could kill a 'Sin spike, let alone a prot.
Right. What's your point? I didn't say use the Sin to spike down enemy teams. I said use the Sin to spike down stragglers. Stragglers don't have Monks with them, and you see lots of stragglers in AB. If a Monk is present of course you don't use Assassin's Promise.
... duh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Constant snare, so my chain may be ready. I might be keeping someone behind, say a Monk. Think about it.
Lol if the Monk is getting snared, and he doesn't remove Hidden Caltrops + Cripple off himself, and he does not have Return / Death's Retreat, he's either bad or not running a good AB build. Yes that includes the Fortress Monk you mentioned above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
It all depends on what happens. Either way, if I had three Monks why would I want to waste a D-Shot on Mantis? If you don't play predictively (i.e run in mash), I could also use Savage Shot to further divert your chain, possibly interrupting Mantis. Either way, if I disrupt your chain, I've got it in the bag anyway. I'm just wondering though, why would I want to disrupt your chain when my Monk should be keeping an eye on the battlefield? Guardian, Disciplined Stance and maybe Shield Stance should be more than enough for me not to use up a D-Shot.
I'm giving you three Monks, and myself three Monks, to prevent deaths on either side. This is to give you as many chances as you want to DShot Black Mantis Thrust. What else?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Yes, I'm telling you builds don't matter. I play Alliance Battles because it's the playing grounds for idiots and I can get away with practically anything, including using an A/Mo healer.
So you're saying builds don't matter now? Why don't you go into AB with no skills on your bar and then post 5 wins out of 5? And, why are you even bashing Crytherea above? Builds don't matter. You can bring whatever you want and achieve the same results. Builds don't matter. But you said AP is bad. Why would it be bad if builds don't matter?
You're contradicting yourself here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
I've not claimed builds and tactics do not matter if you're playing to win. If I did want to win, however, I would be using real skillbars, a full party of competent (i.e non-pug) players using those bars and I'd be syncing.
If this is what you're saying, I'm writing you off as trivial because, of course, if you're not playing to win then no holds are barred and you can go into AB with 5 Superior runes if you want to. But you know, I kinda assumed you meant playing to win when you told Crytherea Superior runes are bad. I mean, if you aren't playing to win then whatever you run and whatever you equip don't matter right? Right??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
It's not like AB is going to go far. The only people that would give my team trouble are people who run Defy Pain, 100 block stances, 55HP Monks and all of those other bars you could call griefing bars, which would be ignored anyway.
You're missing the people who refuse to get caught and forced into a fight. They give you trouble, because if you don't get people to kill you will be outcapped and so lose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Do you really think a Searing Flames Flagrunner is comparable to a Rt/A Flagrunner? If you were really going for it, I wouldn't go for an SF Flagrunner.
Anyway, I say we just put an end to this discussion in this thread, because it's completely irrelevent. If you wish to continue the discussion, take it to the forum made for Alliance Battles or even the thread in there based on its tactics.
So ... you've made a firm statement that Searing Flames flagger is not comparable to Rt/A flagger, and therefore imply that Divine was not playing seriously when he played Searing Flames on flagger. Let me confirm this. You are saying that Divine was not playing seriously when he used Searing Flames on flagger. Yes or no?
As for putting an end to this discussion, I probably should too, because I'm not getting anything intelligent out of you.
Super Igor
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2008
why should you kno? Oo
A/W
21 Nov 2008 at 12:17 - 76
Walls of text are lame tbh.
Fact is fact, if you want to win AB run URF SHAKUUR, 2x SH and a monk. Esploding 7 nubs at once is really fun.
If you are pugging run something that benefits your party, solocapping is good but it is slow, much better idea to run with your party and scoring kills tbh. When you get to a shrine it will be capped faster. Solocap fire eles without an urf shakuur will run around recharging their skills most of time so I wouldnt run those.
Tyla is right, in a pug shatterstone eles will be just as usefull, because they can rape melee and they can score kills with ease with their uber damage spikes. Mindblast eles are cool too though.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
21 Nov 2008 at 16:16 - 77
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As for putting an end to this discussion, I probably should too, because I'm not getting anything intelligent out of you.
I'm going to continue because you're funny. It's not like anything intelligent is coming from you either, because all you seem to be saying is that your capping will be intact most of the time even when being hassled. But saying that, I don't really care, I just find this funny.
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
If you don't think a Shatterstone Elementalist can cap a shrine faster than a Fire Elementalist, why are you posting? Or Mind Blast, for that matter.
I'm not posting about speed of capping, I'm posting about how powerful something is outside of capping too.
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Fire Elementalists have the ability to nuke any shrine, and therefore they make the choice. I don't mean choices as in 'I choose to be stupid and tank this Sin chain' or 'I choose this Monk to attack'. I mean choices like 'we fight now' or 'we cap this shrine not this one' or 'run for your lives' or similar. Shatterstone Elementalists cannot make the same choice because they do not have the similar ability to lead the team - they do not have big, NPC-wiping damage.
No Shatterstone Elementalists cannot solocap. Like I said, if you think they can, prove it by posting a screenshot of you solo'ing the Elite Elementalist shrine with a Shatterstone Elementalist build without taking an unbearably long time (a Fire Elementalist can do it in 5 seconds, don't take more than twice that amount).
Again, Elite Elementalist Shrine isn't the only shrine. Just because it's one shrine or the time it takes to do so doesn't mean that it's not able to solo cap.
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Up to you. I cap Res shrines because I know that so long as I hold it, I can take you out because reinforcements will constantly spawn for me.
Each of those reinforcements coming out will be fighting other teams, whch your tactics are against and each one dying will give us 3 points. If you're claiming that outcapping would be better, then being rolled isn't exactly efficient, isn't it?
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Or you are being a noob and choosing to defend the Battle Cry shrine. What's the difference? Maybe the other teams agree with you and think it's a good idea to defend the Elite Elementalist and Elite Warrior shrines. I still have a 4-to-3 shrine advantage over you and will win.
It all depends on the scenario. You did know I can change my tactic anytime I wish, right?
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Go ahead and split Rangers, it's not like they can solocap.
Longbows, or do you camp weaponsets?
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I didn't know NPCs had AoE damage. Actually I didn't know the teammates I have use AoE damage. I didn't know I was so stupid to actually use AoE damage in a straight fight. I didn't know I had only AoE skills on my bar. Hm.
So what if NPCs are my only damage output? Damage is damage is damage. Pre VoD change you could win at VoD using NPCs as your damage output. Are you going to say NPC damage is negligible? Lol if you do. The Elementalist NPCs especially deal considerable damage. Do you want to fight a 6v4 battle where I have two NPCs + the Fire Elementalist? Although if this does happen in a real game I'd probably choose to continue capping.
NPC damage is helpful, but it doesn't go far. Outside of the Elementalist shrine and the Mesmer shrine when it comes to certain casters, it's not efficient when there's a fairly decent Monk in play. Oh, and at VoD you've got a shit ton of Archers which make a huge difference compared to the AB shrine setup.
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Stop coming up with excuses. Playing is the easiest way to tell. There are a lot of variations - but averaged over enough games everything evens out. This is the Central Limit Theorem, and if you are unfamiliar with it I suggest you Wiki it.
There are good players in AB and there are bad players, and if you play enough games you play them all. After ten games I think we will have enough material to decide on whose is superior. If you are going to require you have 24 good players in an AB game, then I'll tell you wishful thinking.
Wishful thinking indeed. To have a completely accurate test, I want a fully controlled game.
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So I take it you do agree to my challenge! Perfect. What time is convenient for you? Do it soon, because I do not have much time myself.
Depends; Virgin is quite shitty for me and I often lag on confrontation.
I still don't see why I should use up my D-Shot or Savage on an Assassin for the most part though when if my party members are competent they should be able to not let it pass through. I mean, you could even get a Guardian up before a Trampling Ox on reflex.
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By your logic of multi-functional instead of single-functional, a Monk bar with WoH, Cure Hex, Dismiss Condition, Guardian, Barbed Spear, Bane Signet, Fall Back and Zealous Anthem is multi-functional, because it has hex removal, blocks, condition removal, heals, condition pressure, damage, speed boost and energy for allies.
Overexxaguration, no?
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Why can't you see that I am arguing here that specializing the Elementalist to Fire and capping is much more important than making him a jack of all trades?
Well I guess you could use a variant of the Mind Blaster if you really want that shit.
Then don't spike him. What's your point? You've basically given an awesome reason to spike the Monk: because 'you feel like getting a spike down'. Awesome reason, no?
I've not given any reasons as to why I'll use my bar on a Monk. I'm simply stating why it would be inefficient.
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To heal NPC damage. And to heal whatever damage when you do choose to fight (eg. the 6v4 above). I don't get how you can actually say something as stupid as the quote above.
And you would need two Monks why? That's why you bring utility, so you don't need to rely on the Monks as much.
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Right. What's your point? I didn't say use the Sin to spike down enemy teams. I said use the Sin to spike down stragglers. Stragglers don't have Monks with them, and you see lots of stragglers in AB. If a Monk is present of course you don't use Assassin's Promise.
... duh.
Oh, okay. Why not just run a Warriors' Endurance Warrior instead then? You could just as easily fit Dark Prison on there, and considering you can spam Prot Strike and Power Attack literally on recharge, you aren't limited to stragglers and NPC's.
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Lol if the Monk is getting snared, and he doesn't remove Hidden Caltrops + Cripple off himself, and he does not have Return / Death's Retreat, he's either bad or not running a good AB build. Yes that includes the Fortress Monk you mentioned above.
That would require you to spend 1 second casting your hex, excluding Holy Veil, and 3/4 casting Dismiss or whatever condition removal. Keep in mind aftercast makes this 2.5 seconds, which is a lot of time. 1.5 seconds if you're prevailing.
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I'm giving you three Monks, and myself three Monks, to prevent deaths on either side. This is to give you as many chances as you want to DShot Black Mantis Thrust. What else?
I just see no point in wasting a D-Shot on Mantis when a Monk has got it covered.
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So you're saying builds don't matter now? Why don't you go into AB with no skills on your bar and then post 5 wins out of 5? And, why are you even bashing Crytherea above? Builds don't matter. You can bring whatever you want and achieve the same results. Builds don't matter. But you said AP is bad. Why would it be bad if builds don't matter?
You're contradicting yourself here.
Well, if you're playing to win, play a real bar. Otherwise, I might as well piss around. Heck, I don't even play AB to win, I play it because it gives me a large number of people to practice on.
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If this is what you're saying, I'm writing you off as trivial because, of course, if you're not playing to win then no holds are barred and you can go into AB with 5 Superior runes if you want to. But you know, I kinda assumed you meant playing to win when you told Crytherea Superior runes are bad. I mean, if you aren't playing to win then whatever you run and whatever you equip don't matter right? Right??
You know, I don't even run superiors on the Melshot bar I use. What bonus does it give you anyway? I prefer to be more durable at the same time.
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You're missing the people who refuse to get caught and forced into a fight. They give you trouble, because if you don't get people to kill you will be outcapped and so lose.
[natural stride][pin down] / [crippling shot] / [melandrus shot] + Longbow. If I'm failing to catch up I think "f*ck it" and don't bother.
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So ... you've made a firm statement that Searing Flames flagger is not comparable to Rt/A flagger, and therefore imply that Divine was not playing seriously when he played Searing Flames on flagger. Let me confirm this. You are saying that Divine was not playing seriously when he used Searing Flames on flagger. Yes or no?
He wasn't playing seriously.
petrorabbit
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Oct 2007
21 Nov 2008 at 16:46 - 78
WTB more walls of text pls.
Super Igor
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2008
why should you kno? Oo
A/W
21 Nov 2008 at 16:55 - 79
I agree with the above statement.
Bobby2
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2007
Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards
[MaSS]
W/E
21 Nov 2008 at 20:10 - 80
What Unreal said
E/A Promise nukers in AB aren't PvPing.
Show me an Assassin bar with Promise that doesn't suck.
