[Dev Update] - 21 November 2008

slowerpoke

slowerpoke

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2007

Cuba

From here

Quote:
[Dev Update] - 21 November 2008

We would like to follow up on several points from last week’s title balance build that have been heavily discussed. We are continuing to monitor the effects of this build and plan to make adjustments as we move forward.

Storybook Storage

The addition of seven new Storybooks is putting a lot of pressure on player inventories.

We are aware that inventory space was already at a premium and that the new Storybooks only add to this issue. Prior to adding this feature, we did look into adding a Storybook tab to the Xunlai storage boxes. However, when we looked at available server space, we found that this was not feasible. To increase player storage by adding new tabs, we would have needed to expand our existing server space or purchase additional servers. We are actively exploring alternative ways to relieve inventory pressure and would like to reassure players that this is an issue very much on our minds.

Storybook Retroactivity

Storybook NPCs allow players to purchase the pages of missions completed without having the book in inventory. However, we decided not to allow players to purchase the pages of missions that were completed prior to the update. This was a difficult decision to make, but an important one.

We monitor the economy closely and found a significant fluctuation in how much gold players had on average after the addition of the M.O.X. quests (which give a 10 platinum reward). If we allowed players to purchase those pages, any character that had completed all three campaigns in Normal Mode would be receiving 18 platinum and 42,750 gold for Hard Mode completion for a grand total of 60,750 gold. In light of how much the economy was affected by just 10 platinum, the inflation caused by giving out 60 platinum per character was too significant for us to allow.

Luxon and Kurzick Faction Points

With the increased rewards to Luxon and Kurzick missions, we decided to retroactively award faction to players for missions completed prior to the build. This faction was credited to players as they logged in with each character that had completed these missions, which meant that large chunks of both types of faction were received at once. As players went to turn in their newly received faction, they were losing faction from the opposing side due to the conflict between the Luxons and the Kurzicks. This meant that players would not necessarily get the full benefit for the faction they earned depending on the order in which they logged in with characters and turned in faction.

In most cases, the trade-offs when turning in Luxon and Kurzick faction points are just a part of aligning with one of two warring factions. In hindsight, with this set of retroactive rewards, we should have done a better job accounting for characters who had completed both campaigns, and for accounts with multiple characters who had completed different campaigns. Unfortunately, now that this has gone Live, we don't believe there is a fair or reasonable way for us to change this, so the issue will not be addressed further.
tl;dr not changing anything

BenjZee

BenjZee

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

The Overacheivers [Club]

Mo/

im fine with that.
the whole retroactive topic makes me sad, its more hassle than its worth to give us free stuff.
i dont see why people don't just do one book at a time anyway

Little Shenanigan

Little Shenanigan

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2007

well.....at least they are looking into a soultion for book storages...

Kattar

Kattar

EXCESSIVE FLUTTERCUSSING

Join Date: Mar 2007

SMS (lolgw2placeholder)

Me/

Got excited there for a sec. Thought it was something to do with HoM.

Anyway, ty for the link.

Stuart444

Stuart444

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

Alexandria, Scotland

The Charter Vanguard [CV]

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tbf, at least they learned something from the M.O.X quests and based their decision on that.

That is all I am saying on this incase this thread becomes another thread similar to this one

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Anet is listening to the passionate debates on fansites (or the wiki discussion pages only maybe?), I think it's 2 good moves during the last 2 weeks, the update and explaining the design decisions behind it.

EDIT: they actually haven't looked at the problem of retroactively granting factions for protectors and guardians, maybe they don't want to spend the resources, or haven't heard about that on fansite discussion threads?

GG to all the Anet GW1 team.

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

tl;dr

What economy.
Shadow Form
What economy.
Shadow Form
What economy.
Shadow Form

Retroactive books with faction only are still not answered. Faction in title doesn't affect eco...pfft..nom..hehe...y.

They just chose the easiest problem to answer and the least requested one.

lishi

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

I'm not so sold about the server space issue, we are in 2008 now computer storage are in term of GB or terabyte i dont believe they cannot spare few byte.

Rocky Raccoon

Rocky Raccoon

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

Massachusetts, USA

Guardians of the Cosmos

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus View Post
tl;dr

What economy.
Shadow Form
What economy.
Shadow Form
What economy.
Shadow Form

Retroactive books with faction only are still not answered. Faction in title doesn't affect eco...pfft..nom..hehe...y.

They just chose the easiest problem to answer and the least requested one.
It seems that some people will always have to have something to bitch about. They have made a decision about their game, like it or not you have to accept that. Join the majority of players who just want to play and have a good time.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Risky Ranger View Post
It seems that some people will always have to have something to bitch about. They have made a decision about their game, like it or not you have to accept that. Join the majority of players who just want to play and have a good time.
I'm still having a good time, but it's still meh.

Stuart444

Stuart444

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

Alexandria, Scotland

The Charter Vanguard [CV]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by lishi View Post
I'm not so sold about the server space issue, we are in 2008 now computer storage are in term of GB or terabyte i dont believe they cannot spare few byte.
besides the fact that they may have had the same servers since GW started (3+ years) since I don't know if they have ever upgraded them. This is a F2P game so the server space issue may be possible and they may not have the funds to expand them at the moment (I am saying may since this is all just speculation for now)

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

It just doesn't make ANY sense. They made Luxon/Kurzick faction retroactive, yet left the Book faction NON retroactive.

What's the difference between Faction A and Faction A'?

blackknight1337

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

USA

Mo/

To start, I'd like to thank Anet for giving out an explanation. At least this means they are paying attention.

That said, there are a couple of rather funny points to make.

Quote:
We are aware that inventory space was already at a premium and that the new Storybooks only add to this issue. Prior to adding this feature, we did look into adding a Storybook tab to the Xunlai storage boxes. However, when we looked at available server space, we found that this was not feasible. To increase player storage by adding new tabs, we would have needed to expand our existing server space or purchase additional servers. We are actively exploring alternative ways to relieve inventory pressure and would like to reassure players that this is an issue very much on our minds.
Ok, so you can't really do anything, but you are still trying. Will be interesting to see if anything ever comes of this.

Storybook NPCs allow players to purchase the pages of missions completed without having the book in inventory. However, we decided not to allow players to purchase the pages of missions that were completed prior to the update. This was a difficult decision to make, but an important one.

Quote:
We monitor the economy closely and found a significant fluctuation in how much gold players had on average after the addition of the M.O.X. quests (which give a 10 platinum reward). If we allowed players to purchase those pages, any character that had completed all three campaigns in Normal Mode would be receiving 18 platinum and 42,750 gold for Hard Mode completion for a grand total of 60,750 gold. In light of how much the economy was affected by just 10 platinum, the inflation caused by giving out 60 platinum per character was too significant for us to allow.
First of all, I'd like to point out that most of us who had Legendary Guardian already simply wanted the faction. 60k cash is nice, but most of us don't really care about the money that much. The least you could have done was give us the 120k faction and be done with it.

The other point which I find comical is this: Allowing 60k cash to those who have already completed the missions is too much for you to allow, yet allowing 60k for each and every other person to do it from now on is not?

And furthermore, you introduce billions of gold into the economy each month through tournament reward points, yet you are worried about handing out 60k cash to people for doing 100times the work. It takes me 5 min to do predictions, and I usually make 300k a month from 2 accounts. The hypocrisy here is astounding.

And finally, just cause its needed.

Rhamia Darigaz

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Risky Ranger View Post
Join the majority of players who just want to play and have a good time.
if i play guild wars with one hand, and then play with two hands, will i be having twice as much fun?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackknight1337 View Post
The other point which I find comical is this: Allowing 60k cash to those who have already completed the missions is too much for you to allow, yet allowing 60k for each and every other person to do it from now on is not?
the 60k that they get from now on will take time away from farming, so it's not like it's some additional income that will cause major inflation

Shadowhaze

Shadowhaze

Nothing, tra la la?

Join Date: Oct 2007

Well an explanation is nice anyway.

HawkofStorms

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fril Estelin View Post
Anet is listening to the passionate debates on fansites (or the wiki discussion pages only maybe?), I think it's 2 good moves during the last 2 weeks, the update and explaining the design decisions behind it.

EDIT: they actually haven't looked at the problem of retroactively granting factions for protectors and guardians, maybe they don't want to spend the resources, or haven't heard about that on fansite discussion threads?

GG to all the Anet GW1 team.

True that. A.net PR rep's have traditionally been pretty below average. A few weeks ago, EVERYBODY on guru was asking for Regina's head on a platter. The fact that Lindsey was doing a better job communicating with us then her was a bad sign. Now at least, she's actually started to post stuff and do her job. A.net's staff have picked up a lot of slack over the past week or two in terms of being responsive to us.

I still think Galie (who I never had a problem with, everybody always misquoted her which lead to confusion, which was why everybody hated her for "breaking her word" when she never promised anything in the first place) did a better job then the current A.net employees at this. Still, big thumbs up for moving in the right dirrection.

Arkantos

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

Quote:
Storybook Storage

The addition of seven new Storybooks is putting a lot of pressure on player inventories.

We are aware that inventory space was already at a premium and that the new Storybooks only add to this issue. Prior to adding this feature, we did look into adding a Storybook tab to the Xunlai storage boxes. However, when we looked at available server space, we found that this was not feasible. To increase player storage by adding new tabs, we would have needed to expand our existing server space or purchase additional servers. We are actively exploring alternative ways to relieve inventory pressure and would like to reassure players that this is an issue very much on our minds.
Glad to see this concerned ANet. Hopefully they can find a viable option.

Quote:
Storybook Retroactivity

Storybook NPCs allow players to purchase the pages of missions completed without having the book in inventory. However, we decided not to allow players to purchase the pages of missions that were completed prior to the update. This was a difficult decision to make, but an important one.

We monitor the economy closely and found a significant fluctuation in how much gold players had on average after the addition of the M.O.X. quests (which give a 10 platinum reward). If we allowed players to purchase those pages, any character that had completed all three campaigns in Normal Mode would be receiving 18 platinum and 42,750 gold for Hard Mode completion for a grand total of 60,750 gold. In light of how much the economy was affected by just 10 platinum, the inflation caused by giving out 60 platinum per character was too significant for us to allow.
To be honest, I think the majority of people who want the books retroactive don't really care about the gold. We want the faction, we want the reputation points. Give us that and the experience, leave out the gold. The Guild Wars "economy" won't suffer, and people will be able to get the other rewards. You wanted to reduce grind, and this is going to give a lot of people a lot less grind. I see no reason not to give us the faction/rep points.

Quote:
Luxon and Kurzick Faction Points

With the increased rewards to Luxon and Kurzick missions, we decided to retroactively award faction to players for missions completed prior to the build. This faction was credited to players as they logged in with each character that had completed these missions, which meant that large chunks of both types of faction were received at once. As players went to turn in their newly received faction, they were losing faction from the opposing side due to the conflict between the Luxons and the Kurzicks. This meant that players would not necessarily get the full benefit for the faction they earned depending on the order in which they logged in with characters and turned in faction.

In most cases, the trade-offs when turning in Luxon and Kurzick faction points are just a part of aligning with one of two warring factions. In hindsight, with this set of retroactive rewards, we should have done a better job accounting for characters who had completed both campaigns, and for accounts with multiple characters who had completed different campaigns. Unfortunately, now that this has gone Live, we don't believe there is a fair or reasonable way for us to change this, so the issue will not be addressed further.
I honestly thought you weren't going to address this at all. You admitted you guys made a mistake, and there's nothing that can be done now. While that does suck, thank you for admitting your mistake.

Martin Firestorm

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Louisiana

E/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkofStorms View Post
I still think Galie...did a better job then the current A.net employees at this.
Maybe, but tbf she had a lot more to talk about.

englitdaudelin

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

East Coast

Soldier's Union [SU]

N/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by lishi View Post
I'm not so sold about the server space issue, we are in 2008 now computer storage are in term of GB or terabyte i dont believe they cannot spare few byte.
Someone said it before--I, at least, don't know much about the kind of servers GW has, and the kind of space they can spare. The storage vault probably has its own spaces, somehow, as do our backpacks...and jamming in the books, as designed, are probably more than a few bytes...


I don't disagree with the decision to NOT allow retroactivity on storybook. In another thread, there were guesses about the number of people still playing the game--I think the ballparks were 650,000--1 million live players left (not neccessarily regular, but vaguely active...)...

How many of them gamble on the Xunlai house? Lots, sure. As many as have finished a campaign multiple times on multiple characters? I doubt it.

Had the books been retroactive, assuming 60k per character for the three campaigns, I could have made about 200k total, for my account, for the five characters that have completed things...and I'm SURE I'm at the low end of the spectrum.

Imagine what Kamadan would have looked like, if people could have just logged in, paid for pages, and collected. Imagine the swings in ecto and obsidian prices, or the swings in armbrace prices. The swings in prices for minipets, for unid. weapons, for tonics and cons sets and low-end greens and golds. And once everyone's pimped out in FoW / Destroyer Gauntlets or Chaos Gloves, toting spears or eternal blades... what's left for the player?

Nope, not complaining about that. And as Rhamia said...it'll take some time to earn that 60k...it will trickle slowly into the "economy" (such as it is), not flooding the market dramatically, in huge chunks.

dilan155

dilan155

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2007

living room

N/

hey atleast there finally listening to us, and fro those who say do one book at a time, why should we? a person may get bored by one campaign and might decide to switch around thats not a bad thing, so quit QQing.

maraxusofk

maraxusofk

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

San Francisco, UC Berkeley

International District [id多], In Soviet Russia Altar Caps You [CCCP], LOL at [eF]

W/

how bout this. remove the money from the books and just up the reputation rewards. easy as pie.

??iljo

??iljo

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

N/

No money no play,ftw

No server space,lol,after 3 years they NOW realized that storage failed...meh...

ppls need moar moneys...
eod

Shadowmoon

Shadowmoon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

N/A

N/

Maybe having the book storage become a micro transaction.
Give the freaken online store a use. That way they can pay for extra storage space.

Stuart444

Stuart444

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

Alexandria, Scotland

The Charter Vanguard [CV]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by maraxusofk View Post
how bout this. remove the money from the books and just up the reputation rewards. easy as pie.
iirc, the EoTN books give money as a reward so removing the money reward from these books would make people whine because you get money rewards from the EoTN books

if they removed the reward from both books, people would whine because people who may not have done an EoTN book or have just completed one and was planning on turning it in for the money reward mainly would whine

and if they leave it as it is, people whine. can't please everyone so I say just leave it, let people whine and then move on. next month, there will be a new thing to QQ about most likely and this will be forgotten about <_<

BenjZee

BenjZee

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

The Overacheivers [Club]

Mo/

how exactly does the storage fail? anyway they've alwasy said storage has been a problem but do you really need half of that stuff in your storage?

Rocky Raccoon

Rocky Raccoon

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

Massachusetts, USA

Guardians of the Cosmos

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmithyBen View Post
how exactly does the storage fail? anyway they've alwasy said storage has been a problem but do you really need half of that stuff in your storage?
That's because many of us have;

Compulsive Hoarding Syndrome:
The acquisition of, and failure to discard, possessions that appear to be useless or of limited value.

Fates

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Kanuckistan

Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

R/

I have solved the $$ problem with making the books retroactive and the effect on the economy (lol)!!

Make the cost of buying those pages the same as the reward for turning in the book. I highly doubt the players that want them retroactive give a rats *** about the $60k.

I know I sure dont, but would love all the faction I'd gain across the 8 characters I've taken through Factions.

Ctb

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

Quote:
No server space,lol,after 3 years they NOW realized that storage failed...meh...
This.

This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. The books themselves already exist, all they need to do is cross-reference a player's storage id with the book id. That's 2 int fields or 8 bytes per stored book. Considering how cheap storage is now, that's just insane.

I've heard some pretty sorry things from companies, but I've never heard a viable company say they couldn't afford a couple hundred dollars worth of hard drives.

I guess it was a huge mistake to believe that free to play and ad-free MMOs were possible. They can't even afford a couple hard drives anymore.

Nude Nira

Nude Nira

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2008

inside a tanning bed

It's Raining Fame Hallelujah 【傘回傘】

Me/

Ok...so you can give us a worthless storybook storage, yet you can't give us a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing armor/bigger storage that people have been asking for along time now...thanks a lot

Shadowspawn X

Shadowspawn X

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Fellowship of Champions

R/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos View Post

To be honest, I think the majority of people who want the books retroactive don't really care about the gold. We want the faction, we want the reputation points. Give us that and the experience, leave out the gold. The Guild Wars "economy" won't suffer, and people will be able to get the other rewards. You wanted to reduce grind, and this is going to give a lot of people a lot less grind. I see no reason not to give us the faction/rep points.
Agreed. Nothing more to add.

slowerpoke

slowerpoke

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2007

Cuba

we all know "looking into it" is jargon for we arent gonna do anything, lets hope they forget about it after a while

Fates

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Kanuckistan

Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nude Nira View Post
Ok...so you can give us a worthless storybook storage, yet you can't give us a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing armor/bigger storage that people have been asking for along time now...thanks a lot
Apparently reading and comprehension are two totally different things.

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowerpoke View Post
we all know "looking into it" is jargon for we arent gonna do anything, lets hope they forget about it after a while
Like I already said - more reasons to think A.Net will be the same in GW 2.

Martin Firestorm

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Louisiana

E/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nude Nira View Post
Ok...so you can give us a worthless storybook storage, yet you can't give us a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing armor/bigger storage that people have been asking for along time now...thanks a lot

Freaking fool--you're not getting either.

Kattar

Kattar

EXCESSIVE FLUTTERCUSSING

Join Date: Mar 2007

SMS (lolgw2placeholder)

Me/

What Nira means is, people have been screaming for more storage for a long time - mainly storage for armor - but never got it. But, when people QQ about carrying around books, ANet hops right on that one.

Shayne Hawke

Shayne Hawke

Departed from Tyria

Join Date: May 2007

Clan Dethryche [dth]

R/

Quote:
Storybook Storage

The addition of seven new Storybooks is putting a lot of pressure on player inventories.
Lol, no. Players are making you think that they're pressured because they don't realize that books are a bonus, not a requirement.

Quote:
Storybook Retroactivity
Given the reason that they didn't do this, I'm glad it wasn't done.

Quote:
Luxon and Kurzick Faction Points
The fact that ANet admits that they made a bad decision makes everything about this okay to me, even though this wasn't really much of an issue in the first place.

Phaern Majes

Phaern Majes

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2005

Anywhere but up

The Panserbjorne [ROAR]

R/Mo

Solution to book storage...make it a damn quest. One that just has "Complete mission XX in NM/HM" as an objective. Once you complete all the objectives, quest done, turn it in, make it repeatable... wasn't that easy?

Shayne Hawke

Shayne Hawke

Departed from Tyria

Join Date: May 2007

Clan Dethryche [dth]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaern Majes View Post
Solution to book storage...make it a damn quest. One that just has "Complete mission XX in NM/HM" as an objective. Once you complete all the objectives, quest done, turn it in, make it repeatable... wasn't that easy?
That would promote doing one of a few select missions over and over again, which goes totally against the way books are designed now.

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Disclaimer: yes I'm making my reply personal, but hopefully Ctb will understand it's still very polite and respectful, given the MPs we've exchanged. If not, I apologise and will myself delete this message.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ctb View Post
I've heard some pretty sorry things from companies, but I've never heard a viable company say they couldn't afford a couple hundred dollars worth of hard drives.

I guess it was a huge mistake to believe that free to play and ad-free MMOs were possible. They can't even afford a couple hard drives anymore.
Sorry to be blunt Ctb, but you sound so bitter that you don't realise you're speaking non-sense. (and I may even venture to say that it's because you're enjoying so much the p2p LotRO, but I find it sad that you're still here only making negative comments, which is by the way your right until you start saying non-sense, like on the "this update is just a DB update") I won't even start to discuss the notion of economic model behind a distributed/online game and how you plan resources for making sure you can still make GW1 live with a few interesting updates for 12 to 18 months...

It's quite incredible that after such a nice update (hint: "nice" doesn't mean perfect or fair, you can even find it "bad" but you'd be fool to deny the fact that a vast majority liked it) and the nice gesture of reacting to player's discussions (yes, of course you can pick on me here and say that they only listened to what was convenient for them), some players will still try to twist things in a negative manner.

I can't wait for GW2 so that all this "noise" stops and people move on to where it's best for them!

ALF71BE

ALF71BE

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2008

In your fridge, stealing your pickles. for mah subway

R/

I think Phaern means a global quest, not like Mallyx the Unyielding quest that requires taking smaller quests.