Why has Player Skill dropped Significantly?

Yes that is exactly my point. You can't compare the skill of players when the game has changed so much. When Wilt Chamberlain played they didn't even have a 3 point line. I'd say Guild Wars changed about that much as well.

I disagree with your bolded statement as I would say it is the new players that do.I would say that players skill has dropped because of all the running of first timers to the game as for RA and HA nothing new there it has always been like that all those gimmick builds.I dont ever see it improving even for PvE.


To Avarre.What about [WM],[iq],[TE] and Karma I can say few others.

I have to disagree with you there. What exactly do you mean when you say the game is completely different? There are new maps, skills, classes and tactics to go with all of them, but at it's core, GW is still the same game. Just because it has a new face, does not mean that it is a different entity.

To continue with the sports metaphor, I would liken the evolution of Guild Wars much more to that of hockey. Over the years players have become faster, stronger and more skilled due to better training, equipment and teaching. This is perhaps most evident when observing goalies from 30 years ago to today's goalies. They are much more athletic, their equipment is bigger (and better) and their technique is 10x better than their goalie ancestors. The same is true for Guild Wars. The equipment (skills) is much bigger and the techniques (tactics) are more advanced, but it is still Guild Wars.

If Ken Dryden were to try and break into the NHL now with the level of skill he had when he played in his prime, he would probably not even make it past Junior A, because he was educated in hockey in a different era, a different mindset. It was still hockey, but it was a different, simpler hockey. As the sport has evolved, the game has changed, but it is still hockey. Guild Wars has evolved since the days of EvIL in it's prime, but it is still Guild Wars. It is in the nature of the sport/game for the new generations to surpass the older generations in skill, technique and just about everything else.

I understand the point of it perfectly; in fact, I actually find it funny... But that doesn't make it right, and that's the entire point.

It's like those little jokes that you're just like "welp, going to hell for that one..." Know what I mean?

Sure, it's funny. But some things just shouldn't be joked about.

I'm really not a prude... I laugh at the stuff myself, I just acknowledge that it's a problem with society, and it is. There's just some certain stuff that we really need to move past.

Anyways, this was way off topic.

You remember [ZEN]?! Wow... Not many people now days remember it... I talked to Sama when he randomly logged on some time in factions, then after that never saw him again... The old site is some weird crap now too: http://www.guildkarma.com/

Just redirects to some weird red light thing...

I don't know that I'd exactly put K A R M A up there with WM, iQ & Te though... I mean, damn good at tombs; but do you really put it up there with those?

I'd put [nO] there before [ZEN] (especially considering several in ZEN went to nO after ZEN died)...

Hum...I think you are seriously underestimating how much Guild Wars has changed. When the game was in its prime, VoD was at 30 minutes and there was only 6 classes. Now years later there have been 4 classes added, several skills, multiple inbalances, and VoD has been tweaked with more times than I care to remember (and removed). And that isn't even getting started on the changes to Tombs/HA over the years, which has probably changed more than anything in the entire game. So I would definately liken it more to my basketball example. I find it impossible to compare player skill.

Now you've hit one nail on the head. The PVP players brought this on themselves lol and now they want everyone who doesn't play LIKE THEM to leave. Well guess what folks that ain't in the EULA and these exPUGGERS don't have to leave and they can do whatever they want in these PVP arenas. It's like I said before, you either accept it and get used to it or YOU are the one who will have to leave. lolololol. You can't stop them in these RANDOM arenas. All those players can join and you can't do anything about it except LEAVE. hahahah So, I say CMON FELLOW PVE'ers who are bored with the easy boring PVE game and come to all the PVP RANDOM/OPEN arenas and make ANY BUILD YOU CHOOSE...I will welcome it with open arms and I don't like dictators of any sort and believe in FREEDOM for ALL ina ROLEPLAYING environment including PVP.

Oh I do agree with you on that statement. Those that have played awhile now THINK they are GOOD and have joined the ranks of THINK THEY ARE PART OF THE ELITIST crowd. But, I've seen these types within the game shouting how great their build is and how great they are and I invite them to a lil 1 v 1 in my guild and prove to them how crappy really are. There is NO BUILD that is PERFECT and there is NO BUILD that can't be countered. There is NO ONE that is a god in this game and really there is no such thing as BAD players, inexperienced maybe, but, BAD? By WHO's definition? Do GVG players determine who's good and who's bad? LOL They'd like to think so I think. Do NON-PUGGERS determine who are bad players or who will get in a group/any groups? They'd like to THINK so, but, they don't. I see people use words like MOST PEOPLE won't play with PUGS, but, yah know what? I play in PUGS all the time and there's plenty of people to PUG with, so, I really don't know where they get this MOST PEOPLE don't PUG anymore stuff from. lol Just because YOU don't PUG doesn't mean MOST people don't.

Wow, Red Sonya just made a post I agree with ...

But thats because it isnt a PVE discussion. People are completely free to play whatever they like in RA, it gets highly annoying when I get a pro monk on my team who tells me that Ride The Lightning elly isnt any better then a mending wammo.

That monk phailed at trying to act like an almighty elite pro. People hate Ride The Lightning, but it makes for the most powerful air spike possible with its 1s cast and 5s recharge.
It was after that monk made that comment that I made a Ride The Lightning monk for roffles since I can be equally annoying and pathetic in RA if I want to be.

On a side note, with players being so care free these days, it would be nice to allow full H/H teams in HA again so that people can grind free fame with the Zaishen henchies.

Oh boy.... I'm not quite sure why you would think that PvE'rs would enjoy rolling bad builds in RA and getting roflstomped? As it would seem, most PvE'rs run gimmicks for a reason. They run them because they're fast, efficient, and get the job done. I don't understand why they wouldn't have the urge to do the same in PvP. Maybe they want to show the world how good their narutosin build is, or maybe they think that by killing other players with their 'innovative' build it will gain acceptance and they won't be called bad. But it seems to me like the mindset for what builds to bring in PvP goes down the drain when PvE'rs merge over.

Encouraging PvE'rs to move over to PvP is not a bad thing. Sure there will be a lot more scrubs in the arena, but they're trying to learn (or at least I hope so). Telling PvE'rs to run whatever build they want (and telling them to run bad builds nonetheless) is counter productive. Not only will they lose a lot and get called bad, but they won't learn anything. I'm all for new players coming into PvP, the community certainly needs it. However encouraging ignorance build-wise is certainly not the way to go.

As far as counters and such goes, every build has a counter. Calling people bad for not using 'counters' is dumb. Just because every build has a counter doesn't mean the counter is viable to bring on 'X' and 'Y' builds. Likewise, calling someones build bad because you countered it in a 1v1 is just as terrible. 1v1 has no meaning to it. It's nothing but being able to counter the other persons build. And considering you know the other persons build beforehand, it makes it much easier for you to create a build that's only purpose is to stomp the other one. Because of this using arguments such as '1v1 me noob' or 'i beat u 1v1 ur baed' is dumb.

Lastly, yes there are bad people at this game. I'm not sure of your definition of elitest but there will always be people who are good at something, and people who are bad at the same thing. It's just how the world is. But, saying that bad players cannot become good players is wrong.



Edit: I'm not saying the people in RA who call your build bad are right. For all I know they're the ones bad at the game. I'm also not saying you can't take some liberty in your builds. Run quivering blade once in a while. But don't be stupid. Every class has skills that are almost a must for their bars (pdrain, frenzy, guardian, dshot, etc) unless you're running a gimmick. Make sure you have the necessary utility and that your build can actually do what it was built for. People can't expect to jump right into PvP with their own builds and be good at them. Getting angry at people pointing them in the right direction is dumb. It's usually best to start with tried and true builds before taking on liberties as to what you should and shouldn't bring on your bars.

Its not about getting roflstomped with a bad build, its all about winning with a bad build then laughing at the losing team. Playing silly builds every now and again regardless of whether you win or lose is still fun. My echo blackout mesmer says hi!

This thread makes me think of something related to what I teach, Maths. Compared to the utter mathematical brilliance of scientists 250 years ago, nowadays we're almost dumb like apes, in a relative way of speaking of course. We've learned so many things, we've got calculators, math software packages, many people learns arithmetic&algebra 101 at school, so much knowledge (yet so little understanding ). Learning how the the game works is different from simply learning how to play it. I guess GW "pionners" (for a lack of a better word) who discovered the game mechanics, developed the early strategies and pushed the enveloppe of what could be done are the ones that created the tools for us (less skilled, experienced or /aged, more casual/relaxed) to play the game with ease/support. But that's part of the nature of life, isn't it?

But then you can understand why someone who doesn't follow in this "path" (e.g., read fansites and wikis) can look dumb. I have students who did very little maths before uni, and I hate it when people look down on them (I'd rather do that if they don't do their work, but that's not something you have in GW...). I can even say that I'm much more impressed by one lady who's working very hard and achieving great success.

I guess I'm also trying to say that GW doesn't have a very good teaching approach, unless you're in a guild with people with the right mindset. Fansites and wiki are sources of information, you then have to process to get the knowledge and it can be quite difficult when you're on your own. (side-note: students are less scared of maths when working in groups...)

Of course, GW and maths differ fundamentally in that only the former is aimed at "fun"...

EDIT: I also hate people who have fun at others' expense, because they know they'll ruin someone else's fun by playing dumb. But it's the world we live in nowadays, you're seen as cool doing so and very uncool saying it isn't.

Today I was in RA and I won with a warrior on my team who spammed flare and casted firestorm. He was a bad player, with a bad build.

Similarily, I played RA with Starcraft (r15 btw), he was running a terrible warrior build.

While starcraft was able to carry his weight better than the flarespam warrior, both were equally bad. But Starcrafts build had utility. It actually had damage. And he knew basic game mechanics. And Starcraft was running the build for the same reason you were. To laugh at opponents when he beat them with his terrible build.

But - there's a difference between playing a terrible build and playing an annoying build that can actually do something.

Flarespam warriors are BAD. They have no damage, no utility, and are overall shit.

Echo Blackout is not as bad. It can keep one player shutdown the entire match or multiple players shut down during intervals. It's a dumb build but it still does something.

As I mentioned before, there's a big difference between running 'bad' builds and running 'lulzy' builds. I'm friends with a guy that only runs old school korean builds from '05 and '06. Are the builds up to par with the ones today from the current meta? No. But are they still viable? Do they still carry somewhat of their own weight? Yes.

Now if you said that you ran flarespam warriors and mending dervishes for fun I would have to call you mentally handicapped.

The incompatibility of those comparisons is based on physical fitness over time. If Wilt in his physical prime were playing in the NBA right now, a valid conclusion could be drawn regarding his greatness relative to today's centers.

The problem with the analogy is that EvIL isn't suffering from the effects of age. Admittedly, two years of military service would put you out of practice, but individual micro can be regained through practice as long as the physical elements (reaction time, awareness) are still there. Given the amount of play time they put in after their return to the game, one would expect them to be far better than they've shown.

There's a couple of potential explanations for that. Their set of skills might only have been suited to one playstyle, but seeing as how they had issues against even bad American pug split guilds, that's less likely than the explanation that people are, on average, better at the game now.

Chew on that a bit.

Why should you expect tolerance for underperforming? Sure, you can claim that you're not taking it seriously, because 'it's just a game,' but why should you expect anyone else to be as nonchalant about it?

Running Signet of judgement > S-strike > Dancing daggers>Entangling>Holystike>iorn palm>S-strike Sig of tox in that order on a monk toootaly rocks.

At least in RA there is a sh!tload of new players, often people who've made a PvP avatar without ever having played a PvE avatar, and who have neither anything unlocked nor any clue how to use what little they've got.

GW Prophecies has a decent teaching approach, but not everyone looks at it that way.

If you progress through the storyline you will have a number of situations that will help you.
For example, the Nolani mission offers both running with something in your hands as taking an alternative route to kill the final boss. Sounds like relic run and ganking to me. And you can do it again in Aurora Glade.
Run around with someone holding an item several other times.
Then you will face a number of foes charging at an npc you need to protect. And again you were running around with something in your hands.
After that mission you end up in some desert, where you get some tasks....
What do you learn? Protect and NPC while a group splits to kill some bosses. Running around with crystals while capping shrines. Speed kill foes before they ressurect.

Let me guess, most PvE players skipped those missions while getting Drok's runs. And find them hard to complete.

Now we switch to the next game. What did most PvE players complain about when they started playing Factions? Sure, city was boring. But they also complained about foes which hit insanely hard compared to Prophecies. Well, 8 players getting defeated by 4-6 computer controled foes... They must be overpowered.

Prophecies and Factions were designed to get (more) people into PvP. The storyline tries to make players ready for a more competitive area and teaches them basic skills and mechanics.

Sure, a guild helps because more experienced players can explain what happens. Or give usefull advice. But I've seen a lot of players fail because they keep trying the same thing over and over without changing anything.
And that doesn't work very well.

Several new players I've had in my guilds were annoyed when they, whenever they asked for help, got the reply: "what went wrong?"
And when they gave a reason only got a reply: "I think something else went wrong" or "what would you change to win next time".
For many help is getting the right build or helped past a certain point. Not by own competence, but by abusing mechanics or competence of others.
And that has nothing to do with the teaching mechanics and everything with the mindset of a lot of PvE players.

I agree with the above posters main points but imo it was the desert that taught the most. They were basically an intro to Tombs (or now HA). Thirsty River was the equivalent of priest maps. Dunes of Despair deals with capturing and holding an alter. And Elonas Reach is relic running. Unfortunately, like the above posters analysis, these missions were mostly 'skipped' by PvE'rs. People would hire runners in Elonas Reach and a soloist in Thirsty River. I do remember some people hired help for Dunes but that mission was pretty easy due to the amount of time were no waves come so that you can attempt bonus.

As far as factions and nightfall go, PvE was PvE. None of it taught any type of PvP with the exception of in Factions having the choice to do AB to get 10k faction to advance the storyline. In EoTN the only PvPish factors in PvE was the builds that they gave monsters. Charr with ranger spike, Other monsters with blood spike, etc.

I am mentally handicapped when I play a monk sometimes. I like stupid crap like air spike monk, firestorm monk, inverse wammo monk with hammer and frenzy heal sig. I play that if I dont any glad points for a while. Peoples reactions make it priceless. But it isnt funny with any other class. Reason why it works as a monk is how much people explode when they realise your not healing. I dont play sac monk anymore though, but the build was pure useless gold coloured lead. 105 HP, Infuse, spirit channeling, lively was naomei. 50% of people laugh their heads off when they see it, 50% hate it and you collect dishonour. It was a griefing build made ages ago after /report and dishonour were added to the game, just because of how much I hate these features.

Once I entered TA with it and got a team of 3 wammos who were griefing with frenzy healing hands. We ended up entering loads of times, losing, but having a blast the whole time, particularly if the wammos managed to kill someone.

When I used to play in a blood spike HA guild ages ago, we ran a team of 8 mending wammos for fun in GVG ...

And actually won 50% of our games =D.

I just absolutely love running crap builds and find it really funny, I even do crazy stuff with heroes in PVE too.

Your post started off well, but then you completely ignored the original point from there. The game has changed. If I had played extensively in Prophecies, quit the game for 2 years, then came back, I would be shocked at how different the game is. It would be like having to learn an entirely new game (as opposed to relearning what I already knew). This isn't even close to what it used to be. Thus, the fact that we can't compare still remains.

Yeah. I remember them as well as few other oldies Green Dragons I am not sure what [nO] tags stand for.The reason is is because a lot of them are on The Guild Hall the first board I registered on which wass back in beta.

Too lazy to type out what I want to say so I'll just quote you since I agree with most of your post. I got a few things I want to add but perhaps I'll wait til later. I'm tired. About the bolded part I quoted. Because everyone is sheltered behind their monitor I would tend to think that some of their actions and words would reflect how a person really is. There are very few boundaries. They are free to be themselves. Pretty scary stuff. During the day away from your PC most people conform to what society would consider the "norm". We all have deep dark secrets of all varieties that we would never share to anyone. It's only when you remove all boundaries and repercussions that a person can finally reveal their true selves. The internet provides this. Many people know that. That's why we have so many asshats who wouldn't dare to act like they do in real life. Not because they don't want to but because they can't. Now it goes without saying that alot of us are not like this but you can't escape the fact these people do exist.
Also agree with this to some extent. Too sleepy to elaborate. However having more people PvP isn't such a bad thing. It's the reasons behind it that I'm concerned with. I find PvE has become somewhat boring now as well. Don't like alot of the changes that have happened over the last 3+ years. Some were necessary while others completely took the "fun" out of what I liked to do and completely uncalled for. It was a shame Anet split PvE and PvP too late. Every so often PvP and self proclaimed "good" players would demand changes to their gameplay which would ultimately effect PvE. It was said to be the right thing to do by many so-called "good" players whom seem to think they knew what's best for the game. Anet has made some poor decisions on their own too. Well here we are now. The damage was done. The genuinely good players left PvP and PvE hasn't been the same.

GJ EVERYONE!

Most elements of basic individual micro are still going to be holding over. Provided that, adapting to a completely different metagame shouldn't be as hard as it is for a random new player to pick up.

Because as I stated I play the game for "MY" entertainment and benefit. I didn't buy it to entertain OTHERS or care what they think about how I play MY character. See, I never tell others how to play their characters or what builds to make or even call them BAD players. I am INDIFFERENT as long as I don't get any flak over how "I" play or what builds I use. Even if I do I just ignore it BECAUSE and here's the MAIN POINT ABOUT IT ALL: NO ONE, NOBODY CAN STOP ANOTHER PLAYER FROM BUILDING AND USING THE BUILD THEY USE in these special arenas: RA, FA, JQ, and portions of AB! So, why say anything about it, you either get your ownself into a tizzy or just start some flaming war nobody wins. Arguing is like the Special Olympics, no matter if you win or lose you're still a retard (or something like that lol).

So, either play your character and be happy with that or just don't play in RA, FA, JQ and that small portion of AB you are a part of. I would think most of you should know by now when you TELL someone how to play, you're just going to make them do the opposite if they have any balls about them at all. Of course some kids are influencial, but, I would think most adults aren't. Of course it's everyones right to do what THEY want to do within the game as I said. So, if you like being a dickhead and try to tell others how to play and what builds to use, go right ahead. I'm just saying it will never work with ME! And I build some kicking stomping good/bad builds that beat other players who are using cookie cutter socalled best builds with my builds and that's the entertainment I get and all I care about. Then when I kill them I DANCE ON THEIR HEADS! and yes LAUGH hahahahaha

Its RA, its where PvErs go to learn PvP and realize that 350 hp eles with 2 sups and full energy gear FOR BIG DAMAGE might not be the best way to go. And they eventually beat enough teams of other baddies to get into TA, and yea, that's about it.

I'd agree though. I use to be a total loser til most my friends quit then I end up one of the top players on my list o.O going from average to good when nothing happened but the top tier of your friends migrated doesn't really prove a thing..didn't really improve that much..

Got to halls yesterday with a flare ele who I had to explain what fame was and such as we went along since it was a ventless pug. But being the only monk I still could SB all the spikes since people didn't realize that shooting the target before you call =GIVE OFF.

Skill level gone down? Ya, I think it has.

I remember a couple of years ago when I first started that GW was more of a social game where peeps helped each other. You got in with a decent guild maybe and learned the ropes, so to speak. Everyone came up together and got better playing with each other and, in turn, got better in general.

Now (and this is not an accusation) peeps can't wait to get run to Droks or through the dessert (only using Prophs as example). No one plays through the game anymore. I'm a fan of having max armor but in the end, you die just as quickly with max or min armor if you don't know how to play your char.

I remember my first char got a run to Droks by a friend to get my max armor. I wasn't lvl 20 yet and I didn't even think about getting leveled...it just didn't enter my mind (which seems to be the norm nowadays). Hell, I went back to where I was...which was LA I believe...and continued from there. Did the jungle (who EVER does the jungle now?) went on the normal story and finished. My guildies and I died many times but we learned, had fun and finished the game....together.

So ya, skill has gone down but I think we're all a little guilty for letting it get that way. We all want the quick and easy farming build, weps, elite armors and titles. We think we'll just get to 20 and the world opens up because we're leet. What we fail to think of is the experience of playing and having fun with others. Maybe patience is a virtue after all?

This is the kind of sickening thinking that breeds mediocrity and willful ignorance; not just in games, but in everything. Incompetence and idiocy run rampant exactly because too many people sit around on their fat asses asking, "why should I give a shit?" Whatever happened to "anything worth doing is worth doing well"?

Frankly, we need fewer carebears out there whining to have their feelings coddled. Try owning up to your deficiencies and working to fix them, instead of closing your eyes and screaming like a child about how "you can't make me! you aren't the boss of me! wah wah wah!"

This. I've always hated attitudes like that. It always shows that the person saying that will probably turn out to be pretty terrible at everything thrown at them. At least from what I've seen.

I'd like some whipped cream on my Iceforged Armor.

I think it's one of the first steps of becoming an emo. Because pessimists/ego-centrics have only two choices:

1. Overcome your meekness and just go "meh" all the time at everything, while still, on those rare occasions, getting hopes up. Like myself. But whatever.

or 2. Become emo and slash slash till you bleed out. Oh, and dye your hair black/uglypurple, pierce your tongue/chin/other things (blerh) and keep talking about how life sucks and you want to die.

Also, I hate when someone says "It's my game, I'm playing for myself and only I matter!". Jesus Christ, play single-player games, not a TEAM player! There is no "I" in team, the team is just as strong as the weakest member, so if you are weak and you don't care to get better, don't play or don't ruin the game for 7 other people (or more in AB).

"-We won, thanks to teamwork.
- Yeah, MY teamwork."

Haha, if I agreed with him, you agree with me. IN YOUR FACE!

My Graph will explain all:



No need to give additional information with it, everyone should understand.

Actually, considering I posted first in agreement with him, you're agreeing with me.

Not really, I tried to make a CONSTRUCTIVE post instead of +1'ing.

So if I was going to just "oh I agree with you", I would post first. Ha-ha.

People who are bad at the game like to pretend they don't care - they run gimmicks because they don't take skill or they run bad builds so that they can place the blame elsewhere. It's really that simple.

Red Sonya is a perfect example of this. They'll do what the want so that their excuse for failing can be not caring! Displacement of blame is genius!

I do not think that skill has declined, I think GW is getting old everything has been done to death most items are now common place except for drops from top tier or high-end areas.

This has forced a mass migration to try and farm these last remaining frontiers so to speak, however some of these areas are flat out overpowered particulary in HM. Thus the normal pug player can not cope and from appearances they might look as if they are just unskilled but that is not really the case at all.

Some of these areas were made entirely to difficult for the average player in fact some can only be run my gimmick team builds and specific farm builds which take a lot of practice and time to hone.

There is a challenge then their is just stupid and ANet cross way over the stupid line in these places.

Agreed. DoA should not be dead. Having only guild groups and a select few pugs doing DoA is bad. Everyone should have a chance. Having only self proclaimed elite players monopolize an area because they think only they belong there is wrong and bad. There is no place for people like this anywhere in any game. This behaviour needs to be addressed. Of course this subject will be bias. Self proclaimed elite players see nothing wrong with this and will do whatever it takes to prove you otherwise. Even writing in fan forums with a wall of text. The bigger the words, the more convincing they become. Some of us are smarter then that and see right through it all.

See, unlike red sonya, when I used to play in serious groups for either PVE or PVP, I would always ping my build and ask 'Is that ok or do you want something else?'. If asked to change builds, I do so without hesitation. My retarded fun in RA is just done because I have now quit playing with others, I hardly ever play PVE or organised forms of PVP anymore, and RA is all I log in to play and I want to fool around and have fun.

I know when I am playing a silly build and do it for the luls. I remembered that after I got my Macro keyboard, I went smite spiking in HB with 4 monks using Ray of Judgement. It absolutely destroyed every bad player I came across, but failed against good players, but I wasnt playing it as a serious build, I just thought 'lol 4 smite monks would be fun', and played unrated battles purely for fun with a team of hero smiters.

Im simply bored of playing seriously all the time, but I wont ever play a lame build if I join a group, just in randomway and with heroes.

Oh yea, I also remember facing a team of 8 hammer monks in HA once and they were completely unkillable o.O. They owned us so hard it was unbelievable. I would sooo like to run 8 hammer, or scythe monks in HA to have a blast.

You two (cobalt and byteme!) honestly don't see the problem with having every area completable by the 'average player'? Including elite areas?

Whatever problem you invision is negligable. For the sake of participation, livelihood, and the bottom line "fun" for everyone I say the only problem is there isn't enough people playing DoA. Having more people increases my overall gaming experience. I meet more interesting people. You however hate pugging which is your perogative and not the rule of thumb. But forget about me for a second. I'm referring to everyone else who hasn't had a chance. If "good " players want to flex their muscle they have GvG. Where they can prove their self worth against an equal and opposite opponent. Flashing their emotes as they raise in rank or move up in the guild ladder.

I would like to personally see in official writing where it says DoA belongs to good players only. I would also like to see in writing where it's deemed better for the game. Thus far I see failure.

"If you do what you've always done. You'll get what you've always gotten". If you want the game to be better some things need to change. We cannot allow certain factions of people dictate how GW is run. It hasn't worked. The proof is in the pudding.

"Elite area", "Hard Mode".

Surely these should be hard, or perhaps only completable by decent people?

I would agree with you if it was only the metagame that changed. The ENTIRE game changed.

Are you serious? Why even have elite areas at all if everybody and their mother can do them? Why not just call every area in the game a scrub area and have no challenges in the game whatsoever? That's called bad game design in every sense of the word.

EXACTLY!!!!! There are ALOT more decent players then we care to recognize. But these people don't exist in the eyes of the self proclaimed "good" players. And yes I do agree 110% that any decent people should be able to participate not just guild groups and the like.

I'm not sure if you were disagreeing with me or not but you sure are adding fuel to my fire.
Hey if a "bad" player can't beat an elite area that's his problem. I'm not saying DoA needs to be dumbed down that drastically. You're taking it out of context. But scaring away even half decent players???? What's the point in that?

While we are at it, lets buff UW up to insane proportions seeing as though alot of PuGs there fail on a daily basis. Lets remove them and keep it mutually exclusive to good players. Bad/decent players get bored with nothing to do and quit playing. Excellent game design. Good way to get rid of a player base.

Average - typical; common; ordinary
Master - being a master of some occupation, art, etc.; eminently skilled

The two above terms, being relative, are mutually exclusive.