Why has Player Skill dropped Significantly?

Avarre beat me to it....><

Please explain this idea to us. You have your heart set on the notion that it is impossible to compare the players of old to the players of now, but why is that so? Yea, there was VoD and only 6 classes when EvIL first played, but surely those are not things that were the life and death of their gameplay/strategy? There are 4 new classes, granted, that would take a bit of time to get used to, but it is not the game changing so much as getting bigger. VoD was a very big change to GvG, but I am 100% certain EvIL didnt get to be #1 by playing for VoD. When you get down to the smaller parts of the game, where individual skills come in, it is still quite similar. Monking, for example, is not so far removed from what it used to be. Sure there are 3x as many skills, but healing and protting are still the same.

I have yet to see a change (or combination of) make GW so completely unrecognizable that the former #1 players cannot even crack the top400.

I agree with you 100% on this one

Yea, it sucks if you are too bad to do the elite areas, but that is the point. GET BETTER!

It's hard to get better when good players don't even want you there. Get it?!

you sound as if good skills can only be learned from good players. that's not the case.

myself, like everyone else, learned how to play by grinding it out until we get it. it doesn't take as long as you think.

Right so what's the problem with bad/decent players learning to play in Elite areas then? Why do good players want to get rid of them saying they don't belong? None of this makes any sense. I'm not pointing my finger at you btw. You brought up a good point which inadvertantly fuels my argument. All I see and hear is a bunch of people with a huge conflict of interest with no strong arguments. How can anyone possibly deem this acceptable?

they should learn to play them if they want, but they shouldn't expect those who are "better" (i'm using quotes on this, because being "better" is always arguable) to pick them for their groups.

this also applies for gvg/ha/whatever pvp groups also. better players are not obligated to play with lesser players in any way, shape or form. if they feel like helping others, great. if they don't, you certainly can't expect them to.

That goes without saying.

Problem isn't whether good players want to team with bad/decent players or not. Problem is there are individuals who simply feel if you aren't good enough you don't belong period. People need to start somewhere. I would love to see more people get into DoA without being discriminated against. Expectations are too high.

You don't see how GW has changed dramatically? Thats hard to believe. You named various similarities to todays game and the game of old which still exist, and that is true...HOWEVER there have been several BIG MASSIVE changes that completely override that to me.

I can completely see how a player who hasn't played for years and comes back would be shocked at the differences. Going back to my basketball example...yes the fundementals such as passing, dribbling, shooting...etc etc are still there, but the game has had several rule additions that changed the game dramatically and actually changed the style of play.

The addition of all these things does more than just make the game bigger...it changes it. The game has added 100s of skills, almost doubled the amount of classes, changed VoD several times, removed VoD, added several new maps, and just in general had the style of play changed significantly. For HA players the changes are even more pronounced.

Basically I'm just saying I don't understand how anybody can say this is the same game, and I especially don't understand how we can compare skill levels with that amount of difference. If this was still Prophecies/Factions, then a real comparison could be made.

@OP: If you are talking about upper end, like GvG part of the problem can about with automated tournies and Anet stopped having championships with cash prizes. After that the good teams got bored with GW and had no reason to keep playing.

Another thing is the good PvE players have done most of what they want to by now and need something to challenge them.

The majority doesn't want to "start", or "learn". They simply want the reward. And Anet gives it to them, because if a game is easy, it sells better.

The same reason games such as Portal are "less" popular, games such as WoW and GW are more popular. Relativly "hard" games don't sell as good, because the majority of people simply arn't "smart" or patient enough to beat these games. The majority wants some brainless mind-entertainment. (And that's alright, games should be for everyone for any reason)

BUT this is where GW was somewhat an outlaw. In WoW, any retard with one of these:

can be "teh-uber-pwnzors".

And once again, I (and most other more seasoned gamers, or more intelligent people) don't mind that, as long as the're happy.
The problem comes in, tough, when this group of seasoned gamers gets drowned into the large crowd of "casual" gamers.

Elite Area's, DoA as mentioned before, is what we concider to be for the "elite". The smarter people, the better players. It's a treat from Anet, in which they say: "We haven't forgot about you".
Then Anet realizes something. We can attract MOAR PEOPLE (and thus more money) if we make these elite areas mind-boggling dumb.
Sure, people COULD still run a "real" build (Cuz in GW, the only indicater for skill is the skillbar you can, or can not run), but why should we (the smarter players) even try anymore, when these "dumb" people can get exactly the same reward, harder, better, faster and stronger.

Some people, the majority, simply does NOT belong in DoA. They BARELY know the concept of pulling/bodyblocking (and whatnot else) and they expect to "farm" this area for their uber-armor so they can show off to their friends how "skilled" they are. (This goes the same for HA/GvG)

Like, what we're fighting about is dumb, I know, but it doesn't change the fact that Guild Wars, once, was somewhat hard. Now, ANY result can be duplicated with some easy buttonbash (Barrage/Pet > PvE) and there is nothing left worth doing for the experienced players.

If bad people want to learn, they'll have to learn.

And how do you learn?

Well, I don't see cadet firefighters (who just started) on a fire truck extuigishing a fire, do you?

I don't see an 18 year old who just signed up for joining the law-enforcement trying to free hostages in some bank robbery.
BAD people can NOT expect to play with the "big guns" straight away. If they want to learn, either find a person that is willing to teach them the ropes, or atleast study enough to know every detail about the subject, and then try with other similar people.

Anet pampered way to many bad people, so know, the majority of GW are "stupid" players who simply can't do anything but: copy buttonbashbuild from pvxwiki or another team, and then.. well buttonbash away, not learning anything. For the majority of GW, you could replace the intire game with:
http://www.tetris1d.org/tetris.php

pump up the graphics a bit, add some cool sound effects and heck, you've got the Guild Wars the're used to...

Very rarely is that actually true, and I'm not just talking about GW. More often than not, claims of "high expectations" are just weak-mindedness, incompetence, and laziness covered by excuses.

And the "discrimination" angle is without merit. It's certainly true that everyone has to start somewhere, but that somewhere is not an elite area. It's similar to arguing that everyone should learn to swim with the Olympic team. The mere thought is plainly ridiculous on its face. Where did all of the supposedly "good" players start? They didn't jump straight to DoA or FoW - they started in Pre-searing and newbie island like everyone else.

You've also completely missed the point. There is a fundamental game design flaw inherent in not providing content that is more difficult than the average player is able to complete. In short: people respond to incentives. If there's no incentive for becoming better, or any penalty for remaining mediocre, people will simply choose to remain mediocre. This is essentially what's already happened to the rest of GW PvE. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that most people will suddenly become better without something pushing them; in fact, exactly the opposite has occurred.

Ultimately, there's no reason to develop deep and balanced mechanics if players aren't driven to explore, understand, and ultimately exploit the nuances of those mechanics. If you don't have any content of sufficient difficulty to encourage player improvement, it generally won't happen. That's why harder content must exist.

It seems most of the people misunderstood the posts from byteme!. He wasn't complaining that DoA is too hard and needs to be more easy. He is complaining that those who could actually beat the area are unable to do so because there isn't anyone to play with them except the retards who think mending on a war is awesome and the farmers with the farming builds which are equally bad as the builds of the retards. Yes these people could do it with h/h but it's harder and makes them lose interest.

Yes, I agree the style of play has changed, but I simply do not accept the idea that the game has changed so much that the former #1's cannot even break the top400 because of the change. To continue with your basketball example, 396 players have been used in the NBA so far this season (including players with only one or two games). To use your example of Wilt Chamberlain, Wilt would not even be in the NBA at all, if he had the same fall in skill (to 459th) that EvIL has had. I think it is fair to say that Wilt was a little better than that .

I can see how the game has changed dramatically, but it is still the same game. The little things that make a player great are all the same. Any three year vet has been able to adapt to the new skills, classes and rule changes, so why should it be so far outside the grasp of those who were once the best?

You keep arguing the fact that it is impossible to compare the old and the new, but that is only really true when time becomes a factor. It is only impossible to compare the basketball greats with the basketball players of now because many of the the old greats or dead or so long past their playing days. For GW, the relatively short time-frame of change means that old players can return with only a bit of knowledge to catch up on and some rust to shake off before they should be back at 100%. But the fact is that they aren't! They have either been completely unable to cope with the changes (which I think reflects VERY poorly on them, and I think you would find that they would disagree) or, the level of competition has risen to a point where they find themselves merely average amongst a sea of players who have improved while they were away.

You say this as if there are no bad players.

There will always be a group of good or decent players that will let you start somewhere with them. The problem is that people feel that they deserve better than those players. They think that they are already good and that they don't need to prove themselves to get respect or be accepted into higher up groups or guilds. This is a BIG mistake that everyone seems to make, most notably when jumping into PvP. Everyone wants to take the easy route. Everyone believes that they're good enough to play for 'X' guild or play for a group that requires 'Y' rank. People are lazy, and if they'd bother to look they'd see that their are groups of decent players that will let you start out with them. But you need to actually get started with them before you start looking around and bitching about how there is no where to get started @ becoming good at the game.

Why people insist on bringing up the obvious I don't know but Tyla that statement goes without saying. Don't pretend I don't know that.

Sounds to me that you invalidated the part I quoted.

Get to know people, find people who are on the same level you are and play together to finish it. You can say "easier said than done", but then again you can't expect everything to be easy, can you?

Ask yourself, byteme!, how did good people get good?

For example, during all the years in both Diablo 2 and Neverwinter Nights, I never needed a help from another person to teach me.

Remember, the beginning is the hardest part. As soon as you break through a certain moment, it will go easier later.

PVE SKILLS

I remember the days in 05 where 2 teams would go into a mission with the same skills, and the real outcome of the mission was the how to team played rather than what they spammed.

Once again another who prattles on like he's someone of worth to me or anyone else who feels the same. The game is about "entertainment" for the self, the soul individual it is not about being dictated to about how to play or what to build. It is you who need to realize you can't make me or anyone else and you aren't my boss or the boss of anyone else in the game and it is you who are wah wah wahing because you can't.
The lesson for you is the world doesn't revolve around being a good player or playing like someone else plays. The world revolves around "self" first and foremost. Just as you try to dictate what others should do because YOU THINK SO you prove my point you are now being the selfish and self righteous one and standing up on a soap box thinking you represent some sort of government within the game. Once again I go hahahahahahah for people of that nature.

Ummmmm every RPG I've ever played has been made this way. In fact more people get to enjoy the WHOLE game than a handful of elites who can play 24/7 It's bad game design to actually make areas that EVERYONE CAN'T get to. I never played a Diablo, Neverwinter Nights, Daggerfall, Oblivion, Morrowind and the list goes on an on that I couldn't get ot ALL areas of the game. So nope you are wrong in the statement that making ALL areas excessible to EVERYONE is BAD GAME DESIGN. In fact GREAT game design is allowing everyone to be able to get to everywhere and get a piece of the elite materials without having to jump through hoops or being a member of some elite guilds to do it.

Its not about "accessability." Every bad player can eventually reach DoA (after all, that is how they got into those Ursan groups in the first place). That doesn't mean however that they should be able to breeze through those areas with little to know knowledge of basic game mechanics. Having access to them and being able to complete them are two different stories.

When you got to those areas in Neverwinter Nights, etc, you knew what you were doing and were, by definition, a "good player."

I believe this has already been said once, but if you feel that way just play a single-player game.

I'm just saying I'm not convinced....I really think the game has changed that much.

There is also another factor. I haven't played serious GvG for quite a while, and yet I know players who still play today who say the competition is generally EASIER! I know former t300 guilds who are now t100. I remember I left my guild idle for a year and it remained on the ladder the entire year. The lower levels of the game are still extremely low.

So if players did learn, it is all at the very top levels who have been playing all along, and it has been counteracted by many good guilds also leaving. The ladder in general I don't believe has gotten overall better even if the players have.

The question is, would Wilt even be playing today, and if so would he be anything more than mediocre? The rules back then let him get away with almost anything, and outside shooters were far less important than having a big massive guy in the center who could push people out of his way and score 100 points.

Now lets say Wilt was reduced from #1 guy in the league to #30. Does that mean there are 29 guys better than him, or just that the game has changed and he isn't as dominant anymore because of it?

Low motivation? This game used to be a top tier competitive game worth them putting 8+ hours a day in to...now its not much more than something fun to do as you are only playing for in-game crap. Probably the same reason War Machine and a bunch of other former great guilds don't play anymore.

LoL

Thanks for proving my point.

You and your kind bristle angrily at the possibility that people are "dictating" how you play. You're so desperately afraid of other people telling you what to do that you've completely missed the point of my post. I hope you're a teenager that eventually grows out of the "fight the Man" phase, but if not, well, there are far too many of your ilk in the adult world already, so I can't say I'm surprised.

As I said before, the problem is exactly that far too many people, far too often, ask themselves, "why should I give a shit?" You've all decided that because nobody can hold a hammer over your head and force you to do something, you're just not going to do it at all. This isn't about other people dictating what you do. This is about having enough self-respect to recognize that you have deficiencies, rather than wallowing in willful ignorance. If it really doesn't bother you that you have no aptitude in an activity that you spend significant time on, then I honestly feel sorry for you.

And don't think to lecture me about what the world revolves around; you don't know anything about me. Nobody is telling you to take on GW as a second job, and it doesn't take 10 hours a day to not be an idiot. In point of fact, most of the terrible players aren't terrible because they haven't played enough - they're terrible because they don't give a shit, and they have some kind of inexplicable aversion to using their brain in a leisure activity. Students that spend the same time in class come out with radically different grades - why? The difference isn't time investment, it's how they use that time. Similarly, you can play GW with all of the mental activity of a dog drooling over the keyboard, or you can actually use your head.

Nobody is telling you what to do - in reality, nobody cares enough to bother. But ask yourself: are you so lacking in self-respect that you can be content with mediocrity?

That is pure BS. Just off the top of my head, FFX was a single-player RPG with a main storyline that was easily completable for everyone, and a ton of side content and dungeons that required intense grind and/or player skill to access and defeat. It's an RPG staple to include the hardest content and the phattest l00t in an out-of-the-way area so that most players can get the satisfaction of beating the game, but the players who want to can feel "elite" as well if they put the effort in.

No one can dictate what you play...but we certainly are within our rights to choose to not play with you if you choose to play poorly in a team game. So keep on raging about not being able to do elite content, or play in high level PvP, or whatever game mode you think is dominated by "elitists" who are trying to dictate your playstyle. People have as much of a right to want to play to win as you have a right to play to fail, but you certainly have zero right to "dictate" what builds other players must accept in their groups. Choice is a b**** like that.

Also, CAPITALIZING every OTHER word DOES not MAKE your POINT any BETTER.

It's a good thing you don't play WoW; less than two percent of players have finished Sunwell Plateau, the last raid instance in The Burning Crusade. And that's after a balance patch just before Wrath of the Lich King release that made the entire raid significantly easier.

There's going to be elite content in any game; it's just less of an issue in WoW because there's a progression of high-end content.

And I believe I said this once before as well. You don't dictate what I do. I'll play any game any way I want to within the EULA as I paid to play it that way. And nowhere in the EULA does it say I have to play like YOU do or anythone else. It comes down to you learning to leave people alone and don't TRY to dictate how they play or what they do because YOU can't change a damn thing about it or them. So, you just prattle on as I said. At least I DO DO something I DO WHAT I WANT WITHIN THE GAME and you nor anyone else can stop me or anyone else who plays this way. You're little wah wah threads don't do anything to change the way people are playing the game. I think you all just like to wah wah to hear yourself wah wah and think most people really give a damn, but, we don't so go on with your prattling if that is what ENTERTAINS you here.

Oh really tell me how you do this in RA, FA, and JQ?? Cmon tell me? Since these are ALL RANDOM POTLUCK and YOU don't get to choose your team bud. lol Better read what the subject matter is about before you make foolish comments as you did above. Now of course you can QUIT these battles, but, it will be YOU who gets DISHONOR if/when you do not me bud.

It's not to make my point any better it is to make people like YOU take NOTICE which you did so it worked just as I expected it to.

Thanks for proving my point that dictators and those who look DOWN on others exist out there in the real world as well. I hope you are 14 years old as well and may grow out of this, but, chances are you reached adulthood with your attitude and thus would be very hard to change your habits.

Statements like these are most hilarious look how some people get over a GAME!! This guy literally takes playing well in a GAME as SERIOUS BUSINESS OF LIFE. Well bud you really better grow up and start to ENJOY things for what they are not for what you WILL them to be or would like to DICTATE them to be. hahahah You have to be the joke of the thread with that attitude. It's a GAME for goodness sakes. Do you take Monopoly so seriously as well? I bet you do I bet you scream the loudest if someone sells Boardwalk for $100 or trades it for Baltic Avenue?? do you? I bet you do.

If you don't give a damn why are you responding at all?

Also, don't capitalise to emphasise, bold.

You need to stick to PvE or American districts of RA. For the LOVE OF GOD. Also I can CAPITALIZE random words AS well. It is very FUN.


Or I'll just stand there with my 2 other mediocre teammates and tell you how mentally handicapped you are. Not to mention I have the option of leaving twice before I end up dishonored on the third. If you were, for some strange reason, on my team for 3 times within an hour I wouldn't mind getting dishonored. Not playing is better than losing thanks to a dick.


It's ANNOYING and makes you LOOK like a FIVE year OLD who JUST discovered the INTERNET!


There's a difference between looking down on people because you believe you are superior and looking down on people because they really are dumb.


Erm.... news flash, you've been the joke of the thread for the past few pages.



When I play Guild Wars, more specifically PvP, I expect some level of competence from the other players entering. You said since you bought the game you should be able to choose whatever the fck you wanna do. I say since I bought the game that my PvP experience shouldn't be ruined by PvE'rs who want to run around with flarespam warriors. I'm at a loss to understand how you find that fun at all. Winning is fun. Outsmarting your opponent is fun. Facing teams of equal skill level is fun. Facing teams of better skill level is fun. But do I handicap not only myself, but my team so that I can face better teams? No.

Can you dig it?

Why did player skill drop?

All the good players jumped ship a long time ago.

I have to disagree, if everyone and their dog can do all areas by definition that strips elite areas of their status.

DE more or less summed it up right there Red Sonya.
Why would any GW player with a hint of decent skill and competiveness want to take the time with the likes of anyone that demands to have access to everything just because they paid for the game?
The 'oldies' are for the most part willing to share their wisdom when asked, but you cannot expect, nor demand it.
One has to splash around in the kiddie pool before hitting the high dive, dontchaknow.
__________________
And a Wallow shall lead them.

I think the rule of thumb should have been if developers could not complete an area with an H&H team or random pug team then nerf it until they themselves can. That would have given any player a viable shot at seeing and completing all the games content.

Or should have made available, once you win the game some obtainable higher level armor and weapons to aid in the completion of the much harder content. Perhaps only usable in HM to prevent it from being abused in NM. Something similar to what happens in WoW the harder the areas you progress to better the weapons and armor you can obtain to aid your progression.

Instead what they have done is created a wall in which most can not pass and not through lack of skill either. Thus the majority of the player base will never see all the games content. Whats the point in wasting time, effort and man power developing content most will never enjoy?

player skill hasnt fallen. its about the same. the good guilds from back in the day, the supremely dominant ones had a full team of competent players that knew their role and executed to perfection. tactics played a role, teamwork was huge. teams have that today. its a changing game. past players knew the game in and out and performed. current players do also. the skill sets were smaller, there was more balance. less than stellar players couldnt lean on skills that let them perform well in difficult situations. powercreep filled the gap of good/bad.

however, there are a lot of sub par players in the game today. the attitude is the issue here. they choose to fall back on the EULA saying they can do whatever they want. problem is, and quote this if you like, when you give people choices, stupid happens. people can choose to be bad and not listen, they choose to rely on skills that exploit a mechanic. they choose to do the easiest thing to get their gold and items fastest. they dont want to learn the game, they want to learn how to most efficiently bypass the game mechanics to cheat the system.

sometimes though, there are times i wish i didnt care so much about winning. i care too much. i never do anything without intent to be the best i can. there are times i wish i could just get rolled over and over and not let it eat away at me. so i work harder, learn more, and come back more prepared only to see the players around me regressed.

What is the point of elite content if anyone can do it with ease? The whole point is that it is elite, and therefore takes (some) brains/skill/coordination.

To give you something to aspire to.

well you only have to win RA 5 times in a row to never have to do it again, and that's if you didn't buy the unlock pack. FA and JQ are not mandatory for any part of any game. so, in order to not have to go "pot luck" you just don't RA, FA, or JQ, you GvG, TA, or HA. maybe you should read up on your subject matter before making foolish comments.

Could it be this not mine by the way although I admire the person who did this.Don't ask me why.

THis is why player skill has dropped significantly


stupid people are breeding faster than they are dying..
Darwinism is not keeping up.

That's a very strange point. Do you really believe developers are better players than community? If so you are wrong, working in game-dev company i can say it for sure.