Are dervishes used/needed anywhere?

Luminarus

Luminarus

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29 Dec 2008 at 08:25 - 41
I was just spouting numbers from the top of my head. I never really payed attention to what the exact numbers were, but they were just to show a point.

bungusmaximus

bungusmaximus

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W/Mo

29 Dec 2008 at 08:34 - 42
Dervishes can take conjures for bigger dommage, assas and warriors can't. Warriors and assas have better IAS. Don't know about the forms, Wounding Strike rocks too much, warriors can't take that because of warrior's endurance. Assassins have sh!tty armor, and while scythes rock on them, I don' t see how they can be better then death blossom spam, or even shattering assault.

Darkside

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29 Dec 2008 at 08:36 - 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by bungusmaximus View Post
I don' t see how they can be better then death blossom spam, or even shattering assault. Then I guess you need glasses...

Arkantos

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Join Date: Feb 2006

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29 Dec 2008 at 08:40 - 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by bungusmaximus View Post
Dervishes can take conjures for bigger dommage, assas and warriors can't. Warriors and assas have better IAS. Don't know about the forms, Wounding Strike rocks too much, warriors can't take that because of warrior's endurance. Assassins have sh!tty armor, and while scythes rock on them, I don' t see how they can be better then death blossom spam, or even shattering assault. 1) Warriors and assassins can effectively run conjure.
2) A dervish with an avatar has eternal aura, which would make HoF maintainable. Critical agility is maintainable, but if you don't manage to get a crit for whatever reason, you have to wait for the recharge. Both can be better depending on the situation. Although I do agree warriors have the best IAS.
3) Warrior's can take wounding strike.
4) Assassin's have the same armor as dervishes. With critical agility, they can have 1 less armor than a warrior with a shield.

bungusmaximus

bungusmaximus

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29 Dec 2008 at 08:51 - 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos View Post
1) Warriors and assassins can effectively run conjure.
Sure, but that would mean they drop the scythe.
Quote: Originally Posted by Arkantos View Post 2) A dervish with an avatar has eternal aura, which would make HoF maintainable. Critical agility is maintainable, but if you don't manage to get a crit for whatever reason, you have to wait for the recharge. Both can be better depending on the situation. Although I do agree warriors have the best IAS. Didn't really take pve skills into calculation, since I rarely use them. I don' t even know what most of them exactly do, shame on me :P.
Quote: Originally Posted by Arkantos View Post 3) Warrior's can take wounding strike. True, but their energy regen ****s it up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos View Post
4) Assassin's have the same armor as dervishes. With critical agility, they can have 1 less armor than a warrior with a shield. This might be useful when I wanna do HM with my sin some day.
I don' t even know what most of them exactly do, shame on me :P.
Quote:
This might be useful when I wanna do HM with my sin some day. You might wanna know what you're actually talking about before you post randomly in a topic offering bad advice.

bungusmaximus

bungusmaximus

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W/Mo

29 Dec 2008 at 11:45 - 48
Meh, it's just been a while since I played my derv, all those options, dazzle....me...must...have...coffee....

Forgotton200

Forgotton200

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Join Date: Nov 2008

Mo/

29 Dec 2008 at 12:12 - 49
Scythe Assassin > Scythe Dervish

Scythe Warrior > Scythe Dervish

DPS: Assassin, Warrior > Dervish

Utility: Warrior, Assassin > Dervish

[rend enchantment] > Dervish

This is what it seems like, I hope I'm wrong though. Either way, I'll still continue my derv since izzy likes to make unexpected skill updates and I don't think derv can get any worse than it is now anyway.

Abedeus

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29 Dec 2008 at 12:45 - 50
Quote:
 Scythe Warrior > Scythe Dervish Too bad with Scythe Warrior, 4 times you do WS and you have 0 energy. And that's if you don't attack or cast any other spell.

Scythe Dervish also can use conjures, has access to secondary professions and has better e-management. So he can literally crap with Wounding Strike -> Chilling Sweep all day long.

MegaVolti

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2008

Me/Rt

29 Dec 2008 at 13:27 - 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by bungusmaximus View Post
Dervishes can take conjures for bigger dommage, assas and warriors can't. Warriors and assas have better IAS. Don't know about the forms, Wounding Strike rocks too much, warriors can't take that because of warrior's endurance. Assassins have sh!tty armor, and while scythes rock on them, I don' t see how they can be better then death blossom spam, or even shattering assault. Dervishes can't bring conjures because they have to get [[aura of holy might].
Yes, Assassins IAS rocks.
Assassins can take [[Wounding Strike] and spam it even better then Dervishes.
Assassins have exactly the same armor as Dervishes, nothing shitty about it. In fact they usually have even better armor since [[Critical Agility] gives them a +25 boost for which a Dervish would have to bring another skill.

Burst Cancel

Burst Cancel

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Join Date: Dec 2006

Domain of Broken Game Mechanics

29 Dec 2008 at 13:46 - 52
W/D has to choose between Warrior's Endurance to spam attack skills, or Wounding Strike for DW and perpetual lack of energy.

A/D doesn't get SY! or Wild Blow. Under cons, Critical Agility is useless, because everyone takes Drunken Master, and the armor bonus won't stack with SY! D/* has higher base armor and health than D/A. Nevermind that A/* should be playing MBDS anyway.

The SY! "aggro magnet" argument is curious; I often run multiple frontliners with SY!, so everyone is covered anyway. Even if that weren't the case, keeping a single target up under any kind of concentrated fire is a trivial exercise for any monk that's even marginally competent.

Joseph Spiritmaster

Joseph Spiritmaster

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Join Date: Apr 2008

In the little house on the hill, Ascalon City, Presearing

29 Dec 2008 at 14:18 - 53
Well while everyone says why or why not dervs are needed. I will say:

If you want to play your dervish, and title him or something, Play him.
If you are trying to farm and make money, then Ele's yea.

But, if you want to title on him, and stuff, and you think its fun to play with dervish's (i personally like em) then play it. If you want to play the game, play it with something fun, not something you dont want to play with.

joshuarodger

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29 Dec 2008 at 17:50 - 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Meth View Post
Well, I dunno about loaded, at most they have 1 or 2 bad hexes, but for the few areas that actually do overload you with hexes and conditions [spotless mind] and [spotless soul] say hi!

95% of the time enemies are going to be stupid and cast their anti melee hexes on the monks or minions or something retarded anyway.
you're right they have one or 2 bad hexes. but when was the last time you went to fow? at one point you have a group of 8 or so shadow beasts with [[spiteful sp] and [[mark of pa] along with a few shadow mesmers with [[empathy], all of which are armor ignoring. if you have a scythe sin or scythe warrior in there you're gonna get raped. then you get the skeletal groups that are chock full of [[blurred] and [[deep freeze], which are AoE, along with blind and deep wound. the conditions aren't much of a problem if you have decent monks but even 2 monks with [[spotless m] won't be able to take care of 2-3 physicals without their own hex control, which they can't have if they're going /D. then you get to the burning forest where the skales can decimate your team through their degen hexes alone. there's no way a team made up of scythe sins/wars would be able to cope with that if they're running the suggested bars in this thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Meth View Post Well, for a WE warrior they are going to be keeping up SY. If the monks in the group can't keep a group with SY alive they fail at rolling their head on the keyboard.
already hit that above, really.


Quote: Originally Posted by The Meth View Post Granted a Scythe Sin doesn't support the party at all, but they can just walk in (or shadowstep in) behind the #1 melee in the party and instarape casters. The speed at which a scythe sin can take down enemies is just incredible, shadowstep to them and in 5 seconds any enemy that was in your scythe's AoE range is dead. Enemies in PvE aren't smart enough to prevent that. agreed. one scythe sin in the group is great but not a team of them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Meth View Post
Unfortunately, orders doesn't boost damage on your dervish because they are using AoHM. Might as well bring a BiP if you want to make a character just for the purpose of fueling others. i realize that AoHM negates the orders but orders does fuel the dervs and makes it unnecessary to have to stop and cast AoHM in midfight. orders isn't as powerful as AoHM (i don't think, never really tested though), especially against undead, but it does make stuff go boom faster when AoHM is down and there is usually a warrior and imbagon in our team groups anyway which do benefit greatly from the orders.

Quote: Foul Feast and/or RC, to be honest. With hexes, Peace and Harmony would come on top - I just wish it could actually be used as a Smiting bar elite so you could run Strength of Honour on your bar with it too. That is, as long as you could get enemies to focus hexes on an Earth Shaker - keep that guy clean of hexes and knocklock the problem makers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
To be honest, the only conditions that hurt that much are weakness, blind and daze. Deep wound only chips in when you're taking some heavy pressure, but if the area is that full of conditions I'd probably just chip into RC. If it's that bad I'd pop in Assassins' Remedy too.

With hexes, I guess there's an agreement there, although there would have to be stupid hexes there. I'm talking Gloom Cave hexes here. you're right other than blind and weakness, conditions are never really much of an issue for physicals in pve, but when you stack hexes on top of conditions, it adds more pressure to your monks. and when you have 5-10 enemies spamming multiple hexes on your team, it becomes difficult for your monks to keep up even when running [[divert hex] or something like that due to energy issues.

again, i'll say for general PvE, scythe sins/wars will out dps dervs but for elite areas and hex/condition heavy areas, dervs do more than just pump out damage. they relieve so much pressure from their monks, it's ridiculous. that's why, with 2 dwayna dervs in our FoW group, we only need one monk and an orders necro with [[empathic], and [[remove hex] to do it.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

29 Dec 2008 at 18:02 - 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuarodger View Post
you're right other than blind and weakness, conditions are never really much of an issue for physicals in pve, but when you stack hexes on top of conditions, it adds more pressure to your monks. and when you have 5-10 enemies spamming multiple hexes on your team, it becomes difficult for your monks to keep up even when running [[divert hex] or something like that due to energy issues.
again, i'll say for general PvE, scythe sins/wars will out dps dervs but for elite areas and hex/condition heavy areas, dervs do more than just pump out damage. they relieve so much pressure from their monks, it's ridiculous. that's why, with 2 dwayna dervs in our FoW group, we only need one monk and an orders necro with [[empathic], and [[remove hex] to do it. Well I guess it all just comes down to bar capabilities - if you have 5 physicals in a hex heavy area where every now and then you've not got everything grouping up, using a Dwayna Derv will pretty much be your main defense against it considering the amount of hate. Otherwise, I'd rather be spamming Power Attack, Eremites' and so on.

reaper cryz

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2006

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31 Dec 2008 at 23:39 - 56
my derv hits 200-400 every single hit, making it one of the best spikers. my sin and warrior cant. and dervs are one of the best runners out there. and when it comes to tanking (only tanking with no damage output), dervs do it better than warriors due to damage reduction to 0 and self healing
and even if we hypothetically say that sins and warriors are better, i havent even SEEN a single scythe sin/warrior in pve the past 2 years since the release of nightfall and intro of scythes. so does it REALLY matter if sins and warriors could do better if they dont "do" at all in the first place?

joshuarodger

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01 Jan 2009 at 00:18 - 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper cryz View Post
and even if we hypothetically say that sins and warriors are better, i havent even SEEN a single scythe sin/warrior in pve the past 2 years since the release of nightfall and intro of scythes. then you haven't been looking very hard. both my warrior and sin have scythes that see use all the time. in fact most good warriors and sins that i know of have scythes that see use quite often. that's because they pump out more damage with a scythe than a derv in general PvE. if your sin and warrior aren't hitting for more damage than your derv when they wield a scythe, your build is wrong.

daze

daze

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01 Jan 2009 at 10:14 - 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper cryz View Post
my derv hits 200-400 every single hit, making it one of the best spikers
Show build or you are lying. or farming ascalon or nub island in NM

Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper cryz View Post
and dervs are one of the best runners out there.
This is true but... so are sins Hi my name is perma[[shadow form]
Quote:
 Originally Posted by reaper cryz View Post
and when it comes to tanking (only tanking with no damage output), dervs do it better than warriors due to damage reduction to 0 and self healing [shadow form] says Hi
just a little equation for you: Damage reduction to 0 + Damage output > Damage reduction to 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper cryz View Post
and even if we hypothetically say that sins and warriors are better, i havent even SEEN a single scythe sin/warrior in pve the past 2 years since the release of nightfall and intro of scythes. so does it REALLY matter if sins and warriors could do better if they dont "do" at all in the first place? That is because PUGS do not consist of "outside the box" builds.. All the Scythe Sins that you do not see are H/H. I personally have people in my alliance that swear by it. And in my hero pool right now, Zenmai has a bow and Anton has a scythe.

Darkside

Darkside

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01 Jan 2009 at 13:08 - 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper cryz View Post
my derv hits 200-400 every single hit, making it one of the best spikers.
Against what? a lvl 1 Fanged Iboga?

I have [Asuran Scan] and [Aura of Holy Might] on my bar and i don't do 200-400 damage per hit.

Quote:
my sin and warrior cant.
I don't know many that can...or any for that matter.

Quote:
and dervs are one of the best runners out there. Sins are better tho...but yeah dervs are pretty good runners as well.

Quote:
and when it comes to tanking (only tanking with no damage output), dervs do it better than warriors due to damage reduction to 0 and self healing Not really but tanking is fail either way.

Quote:
i havent even SEEN a single scythe sin/warrior in pve the past 2 years since the release of nightfall and intro of scythes. so does it REALLY matter if sins and warriors could do better if they dont "do" at all in the first place? You need to up the prescription on your goggles. They are becoming quite popular.

Luminarus

Luminarus

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Join Date: Aug 2007

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01 Jan 2009 at 14:25 - 60
Scythe warriors really became popular about 4 months ago after they buffed warriors endurance. Scythe sins have been in pvp for ages, I think since the pius buff they really took off. In pve, bit later but they are definately popular, but still inferior compared to mb/db so in a group most sins will run mb/db.

moooo566

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2008

Guild Of Madness

D/Mo

01 Jan 2009 at 16:56 - 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
The main advantage of dervishes is their avatar forms, namely melandru that can get rid of annoying conditions or dwayna for hexes. The other main advantage is that they can still do good damage in an instance another melee character would be shut due to AoE enchantments, namely [[Eternal aura] + [[Aura of holy might]. yes those are bost perfectly useful skills, but they do require work on title tracks. i have these, but before i did, i always used zealous renewal and heart of holy flame. easier to get, cheaper, no grind point farming... especially the luxon/kurzick one will take weeks unless your strange and play gw 23 hours a day

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

01 Jan 2009 at 17:10 - 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by moooo566 View Post
yes those are bost perfectly useful skills, but they do require work on title tracks. i have these, but before i did, i always used zealous renewal and heart of holy flame. easier to get, cheaper, no grind point farming, absolute crap skills Missed a point there.

Both of the aforementioned skills are absolutely fine at even rank one, if you happen to want to grind the titles (it's only grind when you're vanquishing the same area over and over or completing Factions over and over), it will get more powerful.

Darkside

Darkside

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03 Jan 2009 at 00:19 - 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by moooo566 View Post
yes those are bost perfectly useful skills, but they do require work on title tracks. i have these, but before i did, i always used zealous renewal and heart of holy flame. easier to get, cheaper, no grind point farming... especially the luxon/kurzick one will take weeks unless your strange and play gw 23 hours a day [Zealous renewal] is so bad I won't even go there and [Heart of Holy Flame] is only good when you're starting out on noob island and don't have access to anything else.

Like Tyla said [Aura of Holy Might] is good even with a low allegiance rank. Even if your only rank 1 it's worth having on your bar. [Asuran Scan] is also good at low rank. No grind required to use either of these skills.

OMFGimCUTE

OMFGimCUTE

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05 Jan 2009 at 09:39 - 64
------ Dervs might not be as good as assassins or warriors in pve and stuff but there is nothing better than Dervs in 1 on 1 matches they just rock everything and is the only reason why I have one.

MegaVolti

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2008

Me/Rt

05 Jan 2009 at 14:44 - 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMFGimCUTE View Post
------ Dervs might not be as good as assassins or warriors in pve and stuff but there is nothing better than Dervs in 1 on 1 matches they just rock everything and is the only reason why I have one. Mesmers.
12 chars

-Lotus-

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05 Jan 2009 at 15:33 - 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaVolti View Post
Mesmers.
12 chars rangers
12 chars

Darkside

Darkside

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05 Jan 2009 at 17:53 - 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMFGimCUTE View Post
------ Dervs might not be as good as assassins or warriors in pve and stuff but there is nothing better than Dervs in 1 on 1 matches they just rock everything and is the only reason why I have one. Wow...just wow.

joshuarodger

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Mo/

05 Jan 2009 at 21:50 - 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMFGimCUTE View Post
------ Dervs might not be as good as assassins or warriors in pve and stuff but there is nothing better than Dervs in 1 on 1 matches they just rock everything and is the only reason why I have one. necro
123456

OMFGimCUTE

OMFGimCUTE

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05 Jan 2009 at 22:34 - 69
Vow of Silence on mesmers or necros, Ebon Dust on rangers, wow just wow? i know right Dervs are just unstoppable

shoyon456

shoyon456

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2006

D/

05 Jan 2009 at 22:38 - 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMFGimCUTE View Post
------ Dervs might not be as good as assassins or warriors in pve and stuff but there is nothing better than Dervs in 1 on 1 matches they just rock everything and is the only reason why I have one. Wow...you disgrace the class.

OMFGimCUTE

OMFGimCUTE

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05 Jan 2009 at 22:42 - 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoyon456 View Post
Wow...you disgrace the class. i dont know how im just telling everyone how good they are

The Meth

The Meth

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R/

06 Jan 2009 at 00:13 - 72
An excellent try, my trollish comrade. 10/10 for effort.

-Lotus-

Jungle Guide

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06 Jan 2009 at 02:47 - 73
ill second that.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

06 Jan 2009 at 02:59 - 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMFGimCUTE View Post
Vow of Silence on mesmers or necros, Ebon Dust on rangers, wow just wow? i know right Dervs are just unstoppable Lol there is no single build that will defeat every other. What will your Dervish do against a Mesmer or Necro with Signet of Humility, or a Ranger with a speedboost (Natural Stride) + Crippling Shot + Antidote Signet if really necessary + Rend Enchants to get rid of your heals?

Either you are trolling or you are plain acting stupid ...

Silversword22

Silversword22

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06 Jan 2009 at 05:26 - 75
Honestly, I never understood what role Dervish played. Sorry to you derv lovers, but Warriors, 'Sins, and even Rangers can use scythes with better IAS and tanking/evading abilities. Dervs can run places, but so can my 'Sin...Warrior...and Ranger. Dervs can run [order of pain], but my Necro can do it better.

Hmm...still trying to think of what Dervs are actually good for...

Forgotton200

Forgotton200

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Join Date: Nov 2008

Mo/

06 Jan 2009 at 05:31 - 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silversword22 View Post
Honestly, I never understood what role Dervish played. Sorry to you derv lovers, but Warriors, 'Sins, and even Rangers can use scythes with better IAS and tanking/evading abilities. Dervs can run places, but so can my 'Sin...Warrior...and Ranger. Dervs can run [order of pain], but my Necro can do it better.

Hmm...still trying to think of what Dervs are actually good for... Being a dervish, I would usually defend my own profession but I honestly can't. You're exactly right unfortunately. Avatar is nice though.

shoyon456

shoyon456

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06 Jan 2009 at 07:09 - 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silversword22 View Post
Honestly, I never understood what role Dervish played. Sorry to you derv lovers, but Warriors, 'Sins, and even Rangers can use scythes with better IAS and tanking/evading abilities. Dervs can run places, but so can my 'Sin...Warrior...and Ranger. Dervs can run [order of pain], but my Necro can do it better.

Hmm...still trying to think of what Dervs are actually good for... Well whats the use of a war, sin, or ranger? You never HAVE to use a particular class to do anything, because now there is substantial overlap so that multiple classes can do the same thing.

Sins, wars, and rangers may use scythes very well, but in PvE you cannot touch dervs. Running around in AoM being immune to all condits with a health boost permanently can't be matched. Running around in AoD gaining +50 health and loosing one hex every time I use ANY SKILL can't be matched. The same goes for Avatar of Lyssa and with the recent vamp buff to Grenth, I'm seeing some some impressive potential.

The fact is, dervs (like sins) are not a "party providing class." The only way they truly help is by dealing massive amounts of damage (yes, they do).

Wars are limited in what they can do because of energy req for attacks, Rangers can spam attacks b/c of expertise, but so can dervs if you manage your enchants, sins can crit more often than a derv with a scythe, but they generally end up taking longer to stack enchants than dervs, and dervs at least get utility dmg from them.

The only somewhat necessary class in gw is monk, and that can still be worked around, even in elite HM areas.

OMFGimCUTE

OMFGimCUTE

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06 Jan 2009 at 08:43 - 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
Lol there is no single build that will defeat every other. What will your Dervish do against a Mesmer or Necro with Signet of Humility, or a Ranger with a speedboost (Natural Stride) + Crippling Shot + Antidote Signet if really necessary + Rend Enchants to get rid of your heals?

Either you are trolling or you are plain acting stupid ... you can always interupt signet of humility sometimes i go warrior secondary, then i got wild blows for rangers so their pretty much blind and crippled at that point, then i dont mind rend enchants cause of its longer recast time you can work around it. when i play a derv i always either win or draw a tie, unless you figure out what im up or just better than me. i dont know why everyone is blowing up on me but im just telling the truth

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

06 Jan 2009 at 11:20 - 79
Tell you what then, message me in-game and we'll play a few 1v1s. Interested? I can pretty much already tell you that if I play Ranger you're not going to get close enough to Wild Blow me, and if I play Mesmer I'll carry blocks to your DShots if I have to (if you're going D/R) or fake you out (regardless of whether you're going D/R or D/Me).

Sirius-NZ

Sirius-NZ

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Join Date: Oct 2007

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06 Jan 2009 at 21:46 - 80
1 on 1s are pretty much rock/paper/scissors anyway. It's teams where things get interesting.