Balancing PvE

FoC - Dependant on hexes.... sounds familiar.
E Surge - Depends on energy pools, lucky everything in Hard Mode has rediculous amounts.From experience, this is true even with spikes and a large number of people using the skill in a single party.
RoJ - True, but when enemies are hugging a single tank is a viable alternative. Most AoE spikes are cleaned up by EoE.

There are other skills that vary for each area - Wandering Eye is practically unconditional in The Deep and desecrate enchantments is great for Dervish heavy places.

None of these will replace Cry of Pain exactly, but they are close enough to still allow teams to complete elite areas as they are doing currently.

It was only a matter of time before this turned into a Cryway flame and defense thread.

Posh as in the stereotypical version, "duck" and all that shit. Can't say I know that history, but it probably happened.

What's that got to do with having faith in the developers anyway?

Don't forget that CoP has a 1/4 second cast time, in comparison to these.

FoC is adjacent only with a 2 second cast time meaning you must tightly and effectively group enemies with your tank. Good, yes, but not imbalanced.

As far as Esurge goes, not every enemy in Hard Mode has a 100 energy pool, allowing for a full quick spike; it also has a 2 second cast time but assuming you're using mesmers it shouldn't make to much of a difference.

RoJ can be nearly as good as CoP if you have a tank that can group every enemy very tight, but once it's fixed to be recognized as AoE it won't be viable at all.

Each mesmer gets two casts of Esurge before waiting for it to recharge (assuming you're using arcane echo). For CoP that's more than enough; for Esurge and FoC, maybe not so much. You're correct in saying RoJ isn't fixed right now but the AoE range is still to small and the damage to spread out for it to be compared to CoP; not to mention it's inevitable that it will get fixed.

Don't all PvE Inbalance threads eventually devolve into people flaming and defending popular PvE "builds"? Note I use "" when noting PvE builds, because they are simply a collection of overpowered skill bars that really don't have any synergy except for the synergy of being horribly overpowered and massacring mobs in short order...

Example is the common UW clearing group, consisting not of anything remotely balanced, but Perma Shadow Form sins. Those yuppies think they are actually skilled at the game for using said build? I mean really now... it is a flattering thought to fancy yourself good at the game, but... they are running 6+ of the same build to clear an area! This game was built around the idea that a single class is not able to function on its own in every single area; the perma SF sin breaks this concept like a an 8th Dynasty Ming vase in an Indiana Jones movie.

The fact is, when you have a team build that focuses around a single skill able to destroy level 30+ monsters, something is WRONG. There is no skill like that in PvP... none. If there are, they are nerfed. Think back to Spirtual Pain spike, arguably one of the most horrendous and powerful spikes ever to grace the game. It was nerfed into oblivion... Yes, PvE is a bit a different, but it should not be treated so different that the logic is twisted into the reverse of PvP's. This is why there is a rift between PvE and PvP players, to be quite honest.

The main issue with using Esurge/FoC is that the cast times will mean that any monster with an interrupt with easily hit something, therefore making the strength of the spike far lower than CoP spikes. If CoP were nerfed properly, there is not an alternative that will work as well, because CoP is so easy. And RoJ, well that's just dumb, and everyone knows it.

I don't see enemies interrupting Deep Freeze or Vision Regret or Ether Nightmare even Energy Surge when we DoA, why would FoC be any different?

I know very well that the skill needed, both the level of skill and the type of skill required, for PvP is in a complete different level and, that a good PvP player will be a great PvE player, while the opposite won't always (or even most of the time) be true.

With that said, let me remind the shift it was introduced in GvG when the NPCs received a boost in damage, like a year or year and so ago.

The rangers NPCs were able to do 1xx+ (don't recall the exact numbers) damage power shots at VoD. Let me say again, 1xx damage at VoD. This caused teams to start "farming" them. They used skills like dolyak signet and vengeful was khanhei. Any PvE player that at that time, or at this time, use those skills was and will be called noob, not without reason.

A PvE monster that deals 1xx damage is a mild annoyance, nothing more.

Don't forget the complete idiotic environmental effects, like Repressive Energy and Shroud of Darkness, just to name a few, or the absurdly overpowered MONSTER-ONLY SKILLS.

With that said, yes Shadow form and any dedicated tank is utter crap and CoP is overpowered.

But when in the same thread, you mix those, with necromancer heroes and SY! (extremely powerful, especially if you have PvP levels of offense, but not as overpowered when you consider mobs that can easily do upwards of 300 damage), that allow either for an adequate defense (maybe slightly more than just adequate) in the hardest areas of the game or just the ability to do play with 2 players + 6 heroes, its bond to cause people to scream elitism.

But in pvp you won't be hit for 200 damage from a normal spell on a regular basis. Caster monsters' auto attack damage is equal to that of a auto attacking warrior in pvp. Or fight someone with over 1k health or almost undrainable energy. PvP and PvE are very different.

I consider SFtank+CoP nukers to be holy trinity 2.0 , improved but still not threatening. I think that pugs would reach the 20 minute mark in an elite area only if the number of enemies are halved Those low times aren't made by pugs , they are made by guild groups or people that have a history of playing together.

Overpowered PvE skills are baed, they should not have been added in the first place. But I have two things to say. First, it is a trend in the game that skills gets stronger, you can do things faster and easier. It is completely normal, it helps to keep people going on, players new to the game can catch up easier and most importantly: it was selling the new chapters! Two, the way I see it only a few teams are actually running uber builds .... most of the players are GETTING RUN by permas and 600/smiters in missions, dungeons, elite areas. So a PvE skill balance might have limited impact on the community, or worse, it would encourage content running.

Here is a thought... If gimick builds like cryway or Perma SF or any PvE only skills dont exist in PvP.(where your tactical thinking and reaction and experience prevail.) because they are way overpowered....why should they be allowed in PvE against a AI that is MUCH dumber than human players and have no tactical thinking?

If PvP can exist without it... PvE certainly should be able to considering is a retarded AI your fighting.... and dont bring up the "some skills hit for 200 or more dmg in PvE thats why." well theres a line in the monk called protection prayers... use it.

Its not some Its pretty much all in the places that count

Why shouldn't skills and auto-attacks do 200 damage in PvP? Or you telling me the human monks in both teams can't use a line called protection prayers?

And again, PvP is supposed to be more challenging than PvE.

It seems people want to have some kind of recognition for doing PvE, want to be able to do some areas that no one else can - those areas exist - They are PvP areas. Go play them.

To test if your theory was right, we decided to go do a deeprun, without pve skills(including Cry of Pain and SY)and Shadow Form whatsoever. We used a spike consisting of FoC, Esurge and RoJ. And this is our result:

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/g...uywd/gw427.jpg

I think almost everyone in that team took a screenshot if you want more proof.

I think this is kind of showing that Cry of Pain isnt really needed for a fast time.

This is the entire build =]
http://gwshack.us/0a5db

That's very impressive , congratulations

Eh, I can't say much considering I've only done the deep a total of 3 times. The deep record is 14 minutes I believe? Noncryway I'm not sure - and ultimately the time differential between these three times decide whether or not cry is imba or if the underlying problem is simply how PvE functions. I'd like to see Urgoz done similar to the cryway time though. Cryways record is 23 in Urgoz HM (again correct me if I'm wrong) and noncryway is 32 I believe. I think that would ultimately decide how legitimate your claims are.

Congrats regardless, don't let me deter from your completion time.

On a perfect run at least a minute could be cut down ;p

Actually, from what we saw, Cry of Pain is completely replacable. The time was slower for different factors, namely
- lack of other pve skills, "you move like a dwarf" for knockdown and "i am unstoppable"
- no perma means we can't use exactly the same tactics as the record in later rooms
- we haven't run this build as many times, on a perfect run we would save an extra 2 or 3 mins.

Balanced/physical teams are not as viable in the deep as other areas because of the rediculous quantities of blind. There has been a Steel Wall record with Searing Flames elementalists (23 minutes) but this was before the change to vipers defense. Post nerf, it took more in the region of 25-30minutes with the same build.

As for urgoz, we estimate our time would be much slower (perhaps around 30 minutes) but this is due to not being able to use Shadow Form (which we agree shouldn't have been maintainable in the first place). The "non-cryway" record for Urgoz is, in fact, held by LOD at 26 minutes, I believe.

off topic^^

omg i just love this thread although the topic completely has shot past the posters
original intention i have had so much fun reading it.

back to abusing my pve skills and consets i love so much

keep up with the posts

lol at save yourselves costing energy AND adrenaline. make it one or the other. if u make it only energy, u'll get energy management proffesions spamming the shit out of it. adrenal only shows the current results. decreasing the duration isn't very feasible because it is short enough as it is. so adding a recharge would be the way to go. make it 5-6 sec recharge without the energy req. OR, a reasonable solution would be to leave it the same and make an effect of it's usage be that it causes all adrenaline to be lost. kills D-Slash/save yourselves combo. having the armor depend on strength att. is also reasonable because 100 armor is quite a lot. but if u make the skill lose all adrenaline with usage, this change won't be req. because of the much more infrequent usage. idk why i'm discussing this becaus all i use is d-slash w/ save urselves =) but making it cost energy and adrenal will never happen. no skills with both costs exist in the game.

I know with knowledge and experience times were going down.
When I joined LotU back early 2007 they were very regular Deep players and I've seen times decrease. And in HM we were almost as fast as NM.
However, one of our main players quit GW and two others became more or less inactive due to their study, breaking our experience there.

When comparing the team to the old steel wall, the main change is swapping a tank for a nuker.
No problem for an experienced team who can block. And a nuker adds more damage.
Second, the mimicry mesmer can function as a second SS, which also adds damage.

We were able to play Deep in 45-60 mins early 2007, depending on the experience of the group and I can see that going down in time.
Even without PvE skills or consumables.

But look at the alternatives. FoC spike? Would work. RoJ? Probably works?
E-surge? Would work.
The bad part? Those are elite, so they can't take advantage of SoI.
The mimicri SS would not be as efficient, same for the MS and Deep Freeze.
Though the slow and KD would be the same, which is the main advantage of those.
If CoP would not exist in it's current form the team would need some reorganisation. Would it lower the times by much? I don't know.
It would probably put back experienced teams by 5-10 mins, less experienced teams somewhat more. Take out consumables for additional time penalty (casting, walking, skill loading would all be slower).

It's the combination of PvE skills, consumables and profession benefit's, combined with a decent team build, that make them overpowered.
It's impossible to say that only CoP needs a change or only consumables.
This however does not mean they are not overpowered, it only means it's hard to change them without keeping them overpowered or putting them out of the game.

Oh, you won't hear me arguing on that one

Did you not read handy's post at all? This answers basically every point you make here (I was also involved in this run). Really shows the overpoweredness of cons actually too.

As a reminder:

/yawn at this thread

I can't believe Shadow Form has still never been nerfed. Anet is actually encouraging us to only run assassins in elite area and finish it ridiculously fast? Same for CoP and RoJ.

I think the issue here has been overlooked.

Player A killed themselves doing something hard. It becomes easier for someone else, thus their achievement now loses it's luster. Because no one knows that they did it the hard way.

What we're really talking about here is player ego. I'm a great, wonderful, skillful elite player. I can beat this area without a gimmick. I'm sure your parents are proud.

For the record, I don't use gimmick builds myself. I prefer balanced builds, because it's more fun for me. And I make my own builds, because for me, that's the fun of the game.

But as a game gets more players, more people want different things from it, and you know...there is NOTHING wrong with that.

It's called freedom. You're free to play your way, and Joe Schmoe is free to play his way. Unless Joe is a girl and then it's her way.

The bottom line is I play this game to have fun. I'm having fun.

Pretty simple, huh?

This is the original sin of this post.
When it comes to the biggest problems of PvE, we are not dealing with people playing PvE, but rather farming it.
And if the AI allows to be farmed - then we'll ALWAYS deal with these issues. Only the names of the perpetrators will change.

(When it comes to promoting multiplayer in PvE though - that ship has sailed. PvE in it's current state can not support it as the primary way of playing PvE. The game is just to big.)

The 2 biggest problem with Arkantos' thread are:
1) After the suppose "Balancing of PvE" the game will still be "unbalance"
2) Wanting players to play according to a way a certain group of players think the game should be played.

I am not going to argue weather PvE should be balance or not, however I feel that the starting point of your thread is not to balance PvE, its mainly wanting people to conform to a certain way of playing as you see fit. and I am here to say NO, because when Arena Net wants to nerf something, there's pretty much nothing a player like me can do to stop it, but I just want to say, I am against it.

Lastly stop messing with necromancer thank you very much and
/not sigined

Thank you...

Men leave PvE alone.. stupid ballance proposals in PvE.
Just give us more PvE..Content what ever...if you want Ballance go PvP

Signed for a nerf to Shadow Form, Ray of Judgment, and Cry of Pain. Elite areas shouldn't be so simple. I admit I'm abusing it as well because I won't be able to participate in elite area otherwise.

Also signed on the "Save yourselves" being based on Strength. Imbagon makes HM too easy. It's already easy as it is, no reason to make it even more brainless.

I don't like the look on the necromancer nerf, that's the only thing I'm against.

So none of this is really original heard it tons of times before but I wonder:

Do you guys go bored, like very very very bored and then the only option you see is to cry out for a change that would affect how other people play in a miserable way just to make you feel better and entertain you for a bit?

Because see, if *you* think all these things are overpowered and you got bored with the game and since you played it hundreds of times and got specialized and owned the game (which is normal) and didn't get any more content to challenge you, that certainly does not mean *all* of us are in the same situation.

So my proposal: instead of showing up here and crying for things to be changed that affect *all* people that play this game just because you somehow have the feeling/entitlement that this game is too easy given your play experience I suggest you:

- go and own DoA HM with 3 skill bars on all party members, of course not using necros and any of the skills you want killed

That should provide a challenge and would keep your mind off the "how to make other players suffer" subject.

When you've done that come back and cry for more things to do, I can come up with more for you.

I am pretty sure many people are getting tired of the nerf stick and end up leaving the game. There are plenty of games out there that are not 5 years old. My point, if this shall happen I'll be one of those tired people that found better things to do.

So you're saying soul reaping encourage solo play and that is something we need to discourage given the currently active population of guild wars? Awesome. Have you ever wondered how deserted this game will be if even the players that prefer solo play will leave?

The only reason people still play GW after all this time is precisely because they *can* solo with h/h. There is no other option given the population available in outposts and etc.

So... go find your own challenges (like the 3 skills bars I mentioned) and please leave the other players alone, we're doing fine and haven't got bored of necro heroes or etc. Just stop trying to change how other people play this game, that is a big fail. If people can't play the game they want to and don't have fun playing it because of that, they quit and play something else. Period.

/notsigned.

People constantly insult others by saying, people in pugs are stupid, people in pugs are noobs. Then you want to force people to play with one of the two groups we see on a regular basis. The stupid pug group, or the superior jerk pug group. We can either play with noobs and fail all the time since noobs don't learn and won't listen, or we can play with skill nazi's who try to dictate what skills we use and what professions we play (or we don't get in the group).

You want to take fun skills that are optional and nerf them so they are no longer fun for the reasons they made us like them in the first place. You want to change the way they work because you feel they are overpowered because you've been on the game so long you know the metagame and the special "make HM into paper mode" builds. Effectivly removing any chance new players might ever have to try out these fun builds and skills.

Speaking completely honestly and personally, I find hard mode TOO hard. I do not research builds like most do. I do not have all the elite skills or normal skills like many do. I do not have access to the correct items/runes for my heroes like many do and I do not have a solo ecto farming build to make the massive money to buy all that like many do. I'm not the only one either.

Many of us don't "live" guildwars and analyze the game mechanics and metagame like some professional gamer. We pop on for a few hours a day and just mess around and have fun. Being able to solo farm for 1 hour and make a decent haul is the only thing that gives us a chance to buy the nicer items in the game. Otherwise we would be grinding monsters with henchies and heroes for weeks trying to earn enough to plat to buy just our materials while the uw/fow farmers who have been in the game since release make 50-100 ectos every few hours (if not hour).

Some of these skills give us a chance to enjoy hardmode or make alittle bit of plat. They do not effect/hurt other players in any way at all. Since people hate playing with random players anyways and choose to play with friends, what other people use, or how easy it is for them should not matter at all. We all have the same chance to do well with the skills we have. No one has any advantages over anyone except when it comes to practiced skill at the game.

If something makes the game too easy for you, instead of asking for it to be changed, just don't use it. Find a new build and post it, so someone else can complain about it being to powerful and nerf it (which is commonplace).

Is shadowform overpowered? Probably. Should we get rid of it? No. Because those who have been using it have already gained plenty and those of us who have not, missed out for using less gimmicky, overpowered builds. So the exploiters profit while the honest folks (unknowing folks) lose out.

(lets add this in so THESE people can get rich and then remove it before everyone can benefit) - Rigged and unfair.

So, as I understand where you are coming from, I do not agree with the idea. Its like removing zkeys and tournament points. Screws the new players.

I have watched this over the years from the old Proph hunting areas to Ursan and now SF. The PvE balance crowd has screamed bloody murder over anything and everything till they get their way.

The thing is that most of these people caught on, came up with or were using the same skills they begged to have nerfed to get insanely rich or get through parts of the game and wanted the nerf bat to fall before the "noobs" caught on and did the same thing they were doing.

Are some of these players actually seeking PvE balance, I'm sure a few are but a majority of those who ask for nerfs in PvE are doing so to keep others from gaining the same things just like they did.

Ursan was getting out of hand and needed to be toned down, but honestly I think it would be nice for the new players to unnerf it for a few months then nerf it again or have a Ursan weekend where it is back to its former overpowered state so those who missed out on it can get a chance to abuse it just like the rest did.

There are those who would like nothing more than to have all PvE skills as well as consumables removed from the game, because the "noobs" are using them to achieve what they did without them.

I have to ask why can't you guys make your selves feel better because you didn't "have" to use them instead of asking for things to be taken away or nerfed into oblivion?

If you guys think these skills make things too easy then don't use them and when forming a group ask that they not be used, it is really just that simple. No one is forcing you to use these but you want to force others not to be able to, through asking for ridiculous nerfs that would cripple the skills or out right removal of things from the game.

Play how you want and don't worry about how others are playing, it is a game so what if some one is running UW in 3 min it affects me in the least because this is a game, I play for the enjoyment. It is not a job, and if the ability to achieve something in this or any other game is your only means of some misplace feeling of importance and others achieving the same thing some how challenges that then you need to seek professional help because it is just a game and that is a sad way to live your life.


/UNSIGNED

I don't mind the SF change I guess since I only used it for boss farming.

Save yourselves seems a bit rash. Since your limiting its usefulness with Warriors already why not just drop the Adrenaline and have them spam their 5 energy until their down to nothing. OR make it align with tactics, since it still requires point investment, and it promotes the tactics line. Looks more like an OP Watch yourself anyways.

Hell why not make it like a more powerful watch yourselves, where it ends in what...10 attacks or so? I dunno...I just hate to see it put THAT much hate on it.

Soul reaping bugged me the way you put it. I understand it being the best E Management in the game, but can't we do somehting like scale the energy gain not ONLY with amount put into it, but with how many necromancer skills on the bar there is? That way N/Rt N/Mo loose their FULL ability to heal, but can still support (maybe aegis, protective was kaoli, pure was meling kinda stuff) but run necro bars?

I've been thinking about cry of pain. Since my Mesmer doesn't actually use it, I was thinking, Why not make it EXACTLY like cry of frustration, but with energy gain? Kinda like Tease but since every foe is interrupted, you gain energy automatically. Drop damage down to 47ish max rank, energy to 5, recharge to 20? Interrupt every foe in the area of your target and deal 5...47 damage to each of them. For every foe affected you gain 0...2 energy.

Predictability and unbalanced enemy groups will always be the bane of having an enjoyable PvE environment. Hard Mode stops being hard when you realize Protective Spirit still exists and Broad Head Arrow still inflicts Dazed. The same tried and true tactics of Normal Mode work on Hard Mode, the only difference being one mode will take longer because the enemies are given more health. Without a redesign of enemy AI or challenging skillbars to deal with there will never be the same level of enjoyment that there once was.

Slaver's Exile is the closest thing we'll ever have. Charr a distant second because those idiots would ball up for AoEs.

A bigger impact on the listed skills would be more noticeable if the enemies consistently had ways to deal with them and mobs were random. Except Cry of Pain and Shadowform; Izzy, seriously.

/signed Just need SF Nerf badly for starters..Urgoz warren in Hm 20 minutes or Hm dungeon in 10..thats Just RIDICULOUS!!

I agree with all Arkantos' suggestions, except for SY. There are no other skills that cost both adrenaline and energy. Just make it require slightly more adrenaline (10 or 12).

I'll be honest, I would like to see these 'crutches' removed so that Hard Mode and Elite Areas are somewhat challenging again. However, the real reasons I want them nerfed are as follows:

Shadow Form: Because I hate seeing at least one assassin with chaos gloves in every outpost I visit, or going to ToA and seeing hundreds of them. Nerf SF and they will all be worthless.
Cry of Pain: Because [agro] are/were bad.
Save Yourselves: Because the hordes that would cry on Guru if the other stuff here was nerfed would actually have an argument if this was left alone.
Ray of Judgement: Not in this thread but I'll mention it as well - because monks are the only profession other than assassins that I see in ToA, and while P-Draining idiots who repeatedly spawn and run towards shrines just to cast one spell in JQ is fun, there are often just too many of them. (JQ also needs some other tweaks to stop N/A bombers and the like, but that's another topic.)
Soul Reaping: So there is another 150-page bawwwwwwwfest in Riverside.
Consumables: WTS CONSETS 7K EA

It offends your e-peen, so make an entire class useless (we already have Rit primaries filling that niche)

Nerf a skill because you don't like a group that uses it?

Circular Meta-logic. Nice.

See Shadow form.

*facepalm*

So make em, sell 'em for 6k, and clean up.


I *really* hope you were being ironic

He wasn't being ironic.

He was being sarcastic.

I think an issue some people are missing is that leaving overpowered skills overpowered does not leave more freedom in the game. It leaves less, because there aren't as many viable build alternatives. If you're not using the overpowered builds, you're gimping yourself. That''s why overpowered things get nerfed. It's always been the reason Anet does it; to open more build options and keep things fair for people who decide not to use the overpowered stuff.

There's also a big difference between nerfing skills into uselessness and bringing them into line with other skills. Admittedly, Anet doesn't tend to realize this, but that's beside the point.

I myself happen to be in the "balance PvE" camp, and the only farming I have done is faction-based. However, it seems to me that if farming gold/faction/ectos takes so long that overpowered farming builds are necessary, then those imbalances are a symptom of a problem; not a solution. They're no excuse to allow overpowered stuff in the game. You don't solve one problem by introducing another. The same goes for overpowered builds in HM (admittedly, I haven't gotten around to this either, yet).

Save Yourselves should be left alone tbh. If you really do suck you then SY won't save you. It just lets you run a wider range of builds in HM because you don't have to revolve everything around luring/balling and the like.

Cry of Pain has NOTHING to do with being a mesmer. Wtf is it nothing like Cry of Frustration for. Personally i think it should be made to:

Deal x damage and interrupt target foe, if you interrupt a skill, deal x damage to all foes in the area (possibly with an AoE interrupt too).

That way you remove its 'Mesmer Hex' requirement. You can fire it off at will for single target damage or you could actually learn to interrupt and cause Area damage. It stops it being spammed as a massive AoE spike skill. To compensate for the change you could add the AoE interrupt.