Why do you suppose that anet picked assassin class to be the BEST TANK in PvE?

doomfodder

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2007

farm

R/

It seems almost as absurd as picking the mesmer...

one would think that the sin was intended to be a class to "get in - kill - & get out". Of course with the emergence of perma, this role isn't even possible in PvE. some ones mindset at ANET changed when ppl started to delete thier sins a year ago...

I can't help but wonder why a different melee class like the war or derv weren't chosen to B the best tank...

[DE]

[DE]

Hugs and Kisses

Join Date: Oct 2005

Scars Meadows

The real question is: Why do tanks still exist in Guild Wars?

MStarfire

MStarfire

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

[SOS]

Rt/

My Ritualist makes a better tank than most assassins.

Nessar

Nessar

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2008

West Siiiiiiiiiiiiiide

Gwen Has A Thing For [Pyre]

Gooooo minions! But yea, my monk is a pro tank. :3

Anyway to the OP its the meta till sf gets nerfed to the ground

The Red Messenger

The Red Messenger

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2008

America

they didnt pick it to be the best tank. the players choose skill combinations and pugs pick the most realized builds to be accepted. it wasnt intended for shadowform to be a permanent invincibility...it just happened with EOTN and im pretty sure they didn't see it coming. they just waited to long to fix it, and the damage was done. after a few months went by, they tried fixing it but just realized a large chunk of their players enjoy the simplicity of shadowform. the more they mess with it, the more players just get sick of the drastic changes and move on to a different game.

one example was the whole ursan thing...when it was realized to be overpowered, they delayed nerfing it for an unknown reason. lots of people quit when it became the staple for parties in like 75% of areas. then, when it was nerfed, even more people quit out of frustration (players who used it religiously).

i think they didnt want to re-nerf shadowform because it would just cause more players to leave because one of their favorite things to do was killed. hopefully this shows they are learning from their mistakes and will at least attempt to preserve class balance in GW2 if possible. even though it ruins the "balance" of pve, it was already mostly ruined in GW1 by that time anyway

Simath

Simath

haha you're dumb

Join Date: Jul 2005

Moscow

I wouldn't say that Anet "chose" Assassins to be the best tank. It was the players who created the perma sin and began using it. I truly doubt that it was Anet's intention.

kostolomac

kostolomac

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2008

Serbia

Me/

This game has a lot of things different than other online RPG's , before them monks and eles were the best tanks for pugs.

Quote:
one would think that the sin was intended to be a class to "get in - kill - & get out".
The golden rule of pve is "kill shit as fast as possible and move on".

Quote:
I can't help but wonder why a different melee class like the war or derv weren't chosen to B the best tank... People chose that.I think ANET chose that melee classes actually do the main portion of damage in GW and not tank since tanking slows down the pace of the game. Have you ever played games with tanks? They are quite boring.
EDIT: by tanks I mean MMO meat shield tanks.

MMSDome

MMSDome

Raged Out

Join Date: Sep 2005

Why are you using a tank?

Yawgmoth

Yawgmoth

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2005

Reason: Very poor design of just 1 skill.
It just should never be infinite perma god mode. It should work the old way - invulnerability for a short period of time, enough to kill a target or several ones, then quick retreat. It was an excellent skill without perma, with numerous uses, but for some strange unkown reason they wanted it to be imba. Absurd imho.

Nightow

Nightow

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Kindred Order of Souls [KOS]

Too bad other online games don't let you get away with not having a tank. QQ Anet spoiled me and now i can't enjoy typical MMO's.

Anywho, I don't think it was intended but when they started to fiddle with skills that lower recharge times (GoS), that's when the sh*t hit the fan.

byteme!

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

why do U suppose that anet PICKED assassin class to be the BEST TANK in PvE?

What the title should have said is...

why do U suppose that gamers PICKED melee classes to be TANKS in PVE?

my answer = they suck

Robbert Monga

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2008

More conspiracy theories.... Aint you people tired yet?
No, they did not pick anything, to be best tank. It just happens so that they don't give rat tails about PvE balance, and so skills like SF suddenly appear.
Please stop giving bad game support a higher meanings.

The forth fly

The forth fly

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2008

england

Mo/

to sell more copy's of factions

Arkantos

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

1) I highly doubt when ANet buffed shadow form, they were thinking about assassin tanks (actually I highly doubt they were thinking at all).
2) Assassins are good in PvE, most people are just too stupid to realize.
3) Tanks are bad
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMSDome
Why are you using a tank?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos
3) Tanks are bad You three make me oh so proud. <3

Skyy High

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

I still don't think they intended for SF to be maintained indefinitely, and certainly not as easily as it is, or was. They've pretty much all-out said that the only reason they aren't killing it entirely is because people have fun with it and would cry if it were killed.

cellardweller

cellardweller

Likes naked dance offs

Join Date: Aug 2005

The Older Gamers [TOG]

Warriors are still the best tanks in the game - thanks to their 96/116 armour they are able they have enough defense to bodyblock without needing waste a single skill on self healing or protection which leaves the you 8 skills for killing.

Lycan Nibbler

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

AZ

To sell copies of factions - /end thread

Um Yeah

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2006

Illusions of Grandeur [Illu]

W/

I can't believe the people saying Anet/Izzy didn't intend for this to happen. Even if he somehow couldn't foresee it when they released factions, he reverted the nerf for pve when pvp/pve split was made. He knew that people could and would maintain it permanently because people did just that before its original nerf. I doubt that he didn't foresee people maintaining it permanently after the pvp/pve split buff, but idk, maybe he really is that retarded.

Productivity

Productivity

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Mo/

Tanks are bad in Guild Wars. If you play, play with or see a need for tanks you are bad at Guild Wars.

bungusmaximus

bungusmaximus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guild Of Handicrafted Products [MaSS]

W/Mo

Tank = character with an over-defensive build that doesn't kill and is therefore baed.

Tanking = a technique used to bodyblock baddies so they can't reach your backline and AoE kills them more easily. This technique can be performed by any warrior that is protted well and is therefore good.

Hell I completed Stygian Veil in a PUG while the tank dropped, we just snared the baddies and danced around them while we nuked them. Tanks are a nice foolproof way to PUG hard areas, and if it works for people just stick with it, but there's much much more ways to do things, faster, better and more fun ways.

pumpkin pie

pumpkin pie

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

behind you

bumble bee

E/

Don't understand what you guys mean by tanks are bad? and tanks are not needed?

What happens to all the tank class/profession? aren't those class/profession also fun to play as well?

and no, I doubt very much that Arena Net would choose one class over another, I basically tank with whatever class/profession that i am playing, I actually mobs everything lol, unless i am playing my survivor character (challenge reach GWAMM with 0 deaths)

btw, imho, off course Shadow Form is meant to be maintain if you can, idefinitely, otherwise, how do you explain the part, when it ends you have 51 or 45 (can't remember) health left part of the skill, so that you maintain it or else you die.

blood4blood

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2005

Invinci-farmer != tank. To be a "good" tank requires a player who understands the AI well, knows how to draw & keep aggro. It's boring and unnecessary in GW, I agree, but just about any class can do it if the player knows how. I prefer hero MM/MB for meatshields.

Coraline Jones

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Modified Soul Society

Mo/R

I will agree that, generally speaking, a "tank" build in Guild Wars is pretty useless because of the way the game works. There's no need to tank because there's better ways to play, like using your melee characters to do damage and apply pressure, and expecting your healers to run a decent protection game.

However, I will totally disagree that "tank profession" in general is bad, because that's just ridiculous. If the game is built right, then it works out and it's a highly useful profession. The next NCSoft game is Aion: Tower of Destiny, and there's a tank profession in that game. Just about every MMO out there has some semblance of a party tank, and people pay real money every month to keep playing them. So if they were such a bad idea and lame, then people sure don't mind paying a monthly fee to keep punishing themselves.

As for the opening question to this thread, I think the short of it is that Guild Wars has lots of design problems. Without the shadow magic, the Assassin basically becomes a joke profession and nobody will play it. But when you make shadow magic useful, then it gets exploited to death.

This is a little off the subject, but I think that this is why there's so little commentary about Guild Wars 2. Guild Wars 1 has tons of cracks in the model, but now they are stuck with a huge player base that has gotten used to it. GW2 is expected to fix all the design issues, but retain the so-called look-and-feel of the original game. Both of these conflict with each other.

MirkoTeran

MirkoTeran

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Slovenia

Scars Meadows [SMS]

Mo/

I see 2 fails in this.
a) Using tanks in GW.
b) Random use of caps-lock and lack of spellchecker.

Painbringer

Painbringer

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2006

Minnesota

Black Widows of Death

W/Mo

Because when the sin first came out it was a minion fodder support

They have buffed many things to get them to where they are. Be happy they did otherwise no one would ever want you in a group

Vazze

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2006

as someone has said before: to sell factions.

Skyy High

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coraline Jones View Post
However, I will totally disagree that "tank profession" in general is bad, because that's just ridiculous. If the game is built right, then it works out and it's a highly useful profession. The next NCSoft game is Aion: Tower of Destiny, and there's a tank profession in that game. Just about every MMO out there has some semblance of a party tank, and people pay real money every month to keep playing them. So if they were such a bad idea and lame, then people sure don't mind paying a monthly fee to keep punishing themselves.
Plea to the majority is fallacious. In other words: Britney Spears selling albums doesn't make her a good singer.

Quote:
As for the opening question to this thread, I think the short of it is that the expansion professions have lots of design problems. Without the shadow magic, the Assassin basically becomes a joke profession and nobody will play it. But when you make shadow magic useful, then it gets exploited to death. Fixed that for you.

Abedeus: does not compute? You're responding to someone who says that it's more fun to not be forced to just tank and to do some actual damage, and that it's perfectly possible to do that in GW, and you respond with "That's why CoH is more awesome"? How does that make any sense?

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Quote:
Abedeus: does not compute? You're responding to someone who says that it's more fun to not be forced to just tank and to do some actual damage, and that it's perfectly possible to do that in GW, and you respond with "That's why CoH is more awesome"? How does that make any sense? Can you do that with PuGs? No. Mentality is tank and spank.

In CoV/CoH, people don't want passive tanks. Tanks have to deal damage and be aggro magnets. Because in GW, usually tank doesn't have to worry about "threat" or whatever it's called. In CoX you have to watch it and deal a lot of damage as a tank.

Because if your Corruptor or Blaster deal 200 damage to all mobs around you, and if you managed to deal only 100... It's more than sure mobs will run at your squishies.

That's why in GW it's not hard to tank. And it's faster without tanking. But pugs don't believe it.

Fay Vert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/

SF was a god mode skill balanced with a severe drawback. When players figured out how to have the god mode without the drawback the skill was broke, but ANet fiddled while Rome burned and now its too late as a nerf back to original intent would cause more QQ than its worth. Plus, they ultimate nerfed all farming with the rate of kill throttle so they figure it really doesn't matter.

Once upon a time they cared enough to put another mob in the raptor cave, now its just help yourself to event items.

cthulhu reborn

cthulhu reborn

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

the Netherlands

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by cellardweller View Post
Warriors are still the best tanks in the game - thanks to their 96/116 armour they are able they have enough defense to bodyblock without needing waste a single skill on self healing or protection which leaves the you 8 skills for killing. I'm sorry but that is the biggest load of crap I've heard/seen in a long time. In PvE where you have monsters that are level 28 or higher 116 armour is not even close to what you need to prevent damage. Also you complete forget that life stealing, conditions and life degen in general completely bypass that armour. The only good warrior tank is the terratank who uses obsidian flesh to make sure spells fail against the warrior and usually the dolyak signet is used to make sure that the armour value is finally enough to reduce direct damage enough that the warrior can last.

No the warrior cannot survive at all with just the armour. And since players are generally not smart enough to understand things like aggro circles and why ranger enemies with longbows have a bigger aggro circle, the warrior's aggro is often doomed to fail.

In the end the warrior still needs support to stay alive for extend periods of time and he/she can only last a while by dedicating the whole skill bar to tanking and then needs a healer at some point to keep it up which is where the aggro thing is a pain.

Since there is no warrior skill that can influence aggro it's always going to be very hit and miss. Hell, an earth ele only needs one skill to have a better armour rating than any warrior. Try armour of earth, stoneflesh aura and obsidian flesh as basis for an ele tank and you'll see you basically take no damage. Add stone striker and mantra of earth and your energy is great (not to mention giving your off-hand +10 vs earth damage mod) and a ward of stability against knockdown.

It's just that the warrior cannot do this well without support. Even the ele build is not invincible (for example some dervish or spirit attacks that remove enchants) but it just goes to show that the warrior really isn't the best tank. There are too many damage sources that bypass armour and it's a simple fact that you need to be able to maintain obsidian flesh or shadow form to be able to tank well in this game and ele's and sins can do that better.

Div

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

Or you could run better monk bars and free up the slot for more damage and faster clearing!

Daenara

Daenara

Bad Romance

Join Date: May 2006

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Grand Matron

Mo/

Because they didn't want to deal with the collective QQ from farmers by nerfing Shadow Form into a non permanent enchantment? Pretty sure they didn't sit down and decide to make assassin's into tanks.

daze

daze

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2008

In my own mind

The Dragon Exchange

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by bungusmaximus
View Post
Tank = character with an over-defensive build that doesn't kill and is therefore baed.

Tanking = a technique used to bodyblock baddies so they can't reach your backline and AoE kills them more easily. This technique can be performed by any warrior that is protted well and is therefore good.

Hell I completed Stygian Veil in a PUG while the tank dropped, we just snared the baddies and danced around them while we nuked them. Tanks are a nice foolproof way to PUG hard areas, and if it works for people just stick with it, but there's much much more ways to do things, faster, better and more fun ways. I agree with most of this. I never understood why most GWGuru "know it all's" are all singing the "tanking is the devil" song.

I agree that running pure tank builds are boring, but so is bonding, and so is Human MM IMHO.

The tried and true "tank and spank" method seems to be still an effective way to beat the hardest of areas (DoA HM) with no trouble.

Maybe people are so against tanking because of the retarded wammos out there who dont know how to maintain aggro and pull to a wall/corner. Or maybe most of the GWGuru "Know it all's" jump on the "tanking is the devil" bandwagon simply because they have read it in these threads countless times and feel safer to regurgitate other peoples ideas than to develop their own.

IMO tanking is not bad, its just slower and more steady and more idiot friendly. (im not saying idiot proof)