Tie PvE skills to attribute lines

Marverick

Marverick

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

R/

As title says. This could potentially balance some overpowered PvE-skills by forcing one to spend attribute points to use them.

Since PvE ranks are already 1...10, with LB being 1...8, I propose that we just keep them that way. That way, PvE skills won't require a massive attribute point allocation and thus become useless.

Personally, I would prefer that the grind titles be just left out of the equation completely, but if ANet prefers to leave grind in the game, then make the maximum number of levels attainable in each attribute line scaled to each character's progression in the respective PvE-title track.

Puebert

Puebert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2005

Mo/

As long as they are tied to an attribute, thats awesome, idc what so /sign.

And for the title lovers, just keep the titles and the effect bonuses. (Like Edification and Heart of the Norn.)

Marverick

Marverick

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puebert View Post
As long as they are tied to an attribute, thats awesome, idc what so /sign.

And for the title lovers, just keep the titles and the effect bonuses. (Like Edification and Heart of the Norn.)
Yea effects like Lightbringer should remain tied to the title, that wouldn't really make much sense in an attribute line.

Ghostcell

Ghostcell

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2006

=VX9=

N/Mo

/notsigned
titles gave me a reason to keep playing, and i grinded many of those titles to get my build more powerful.
it's not as if they are that over powered with how much grind is required to get them to a decent outcome.
leave it as it is.

Masmar

Masmar

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2008

Aberdeen, Scotland

We Gat Dis [HRUU]

E/

/notsigned

If they had attributes would there be a reason to do titles like Sunspear which [untill the new vanquish bonus] did take quite a while to do

HawkofStorms

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

Eh, while I like the concept of forcing people to actually worry about attribute spread rather then button mash 3 uber powered PvE skills + elite, this really isn't practical. I mean, it would defeat the whole point of many titles and skills in the first place. The system just wasn't designed with this in mind.

Icy The Mage

Icy The Mage

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2008

Canada

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcell View Post
/notsigned
titles gave me a reason to keep playing, and i grinded many of those titles to get my build more powerful.
it's not as if they are that over powered with how much grind is required to get them to a decent outcome.
leave it as it is.
QFT, it's not that hard to grind. Tbh, you don't need the benefits of PvE skills if you're not willing to put in the effort required to make them good. Anet even reduced the grind for you already...

draxynnic

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

Here we go, another argument between the people who bought GW because of the Prophecies-era no-grind-except-for-vanity advertising and those who bought it because they actually wanted a conventional MMO without the conventional MMO business plan...

Personally, I think making PvE skills linked to titles was a mistake from the beginning. They should have all been tied to professions and attributes just like any other skill - which would have not only maintained the lack of a connection between grind and mechanical advantage, but would also have better maintained the distinction between professions.

Unfortunately, it's a genie that I don't think can be put back in the bottle until GW2, but that doesn't mean it should have been let out in the first place.

Marverick

Marverick

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masmar View Post
/notsigned

If they had attributes would there be a reason to do titles like Sunspear which [untill the new vanquish bonus] did take quite a while to do
.............................

Is there a reason to get GWAMM? All you get is a few words under your name in some random video game...... I think ANet should give every person who gets GWAMM a free scholarship to a college of his/her choice.

Pleikki

Pleikki

WTB q8 15^50 Weapons!

Join Date: Nov 2006

???oo ???ugs ???lan [?????????]

/Signed, havent grinded single title, never used any PvE skills if hasnt needed to, so doesnt really matter to me, but id prefer it the way marverick proposed.

Owik Gall

Owik Gall

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

Guardians of the Light

W/Mo

The title track points counts as attributes FOR pve skills already. Plus, it's P-v-E! It's general for players to gain the upper hand than the NPCs. Now, if it was for PvP, then that's a different story.

/not signed

Dre

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

Belgium

Dutch Doom Brigade

W/

/not signed

PvE skills are easy because you can have them maxed without need to invest in a certain attribute (with the exception of a few skills like critical agility & TNTF)

cellardweller

cellardweller

Likes naked dance offs

Join Date: Aug 2005

The Older Gamers [TOG]

This option for fixing the PvE skills is second only to deleting them
/signed

Rothan Celt

Rothan Celt

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2008

Aura

Mo/R

/notsigned

unlike some people I still play pve and me likey PI!

PvE is always gonna be easy so there’s no use complaining about it. ( not that im saying you are) and players are always gonna have the upper hand over npcs : / so i don't see why PvE skills should be nurfed.

Imo the pve skills are fine leave them alone its only pve after all its never hard and taking away/nurfing pve skills wont make the game 'pleasantly' harder or even bring a balance to guild wars it would just ruin a connivance. to many players.

Onyx Blindbow

Onyx Blindbow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

Here & There

Blades of Burning Shadows - GoDT

N/

/not signed

the reason for asking for PvE skills to be tied to attribute is in the hope that OP skills like CoP remains OP but tied to fast casting, so it is therefore available only to Mesmers but still does not nerf the skill one tiny bit IMO

what they need to do with PvE skills is limit their effects, lower armor from SY, Remove AoE from CoP, lower degen from ether nightmare, lower damage increase from BuH etc...

this will balance the game a bit more and actually allow a little more challenge than groups of OP skills just wiping through all areas with ease

I am not ashamed to say I think cryway is as bad or worse than Ursan for being completely OP and a simple nerf to AoE damage would slow down SC groups yet it would remain a fairly effective no attribute skill for the single target damage it caused, but remain no more viable than an attribute line skill which is how PvE skills should be

Reflect

Reflect

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2007

Varna,Bulgaria

Glob Of Ectospasm [GoE]

W/

/notsigned

So yeah
1st F*CK up all that grinded titles for those, so dumbf*cks can be happy
2nd you dont like them,cause they are overpowered? F*CKING DONT USE THEM THEN?!
3rd yeah...lets anet re-code all skills, who cares bout rest thing anet has to do, like balancing pvp, or making gw2?...no doing complete useless thing is better

Enon

Enon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Taking a dip at Nundu Bay

Quote:
Originally Posted by cellardweller View Post
This option for fixing the PvE skills is second only to deleting them
/signed
They're not broken =')

I don't see the problem anyway. Not too long ago they re-ranked the titles. Even with lower ranks in the EotN titles, they're still useful.

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

I'd rather see ALL PvE-only skills scaled like how some of the Sunspear skills are scaled - specifically Critical Agility and "There's Nothing To Fear!"

That means:
1) Profession specific and 2) half scaled based on title half scaled based on primary attribute of said profession.

However, some EN skills don't fit into a specific profession - while some do - so who knows if that can work.


Either way, I don't think PvE-only skills are going to be touched again except for changing numbers.

assassin shaun

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2007

England

black wolf pirates [awoo]

A/

/notsigned

what would be the point in these titles - at least people have to do something to get them rather than just spend attribute points for overpowered skills instantly

dasmitchies

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2007

Sacred Forge Knights

W/P

/notsigned Dude other people like them. Let them play the game they payed for and quit with the QQ.

code1101

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2007

/notsigned

alot of players would be pissed (including me) and not much would be gained from this change ... for gods sake leave this game alone ... seriously this game became somthing else other than what I bought

wbbear29

wbbear29

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2008

Netherlands

East Indian Guild

Rt/

Most of the problem skills are alreayd overpowered at rank 1 anyway, so it would hardly fix anything. I prefer other fixes, like for example that Pain Inverter reads maximum of 80 damager per second (instead of maximum 80 damage). And stuff like that.

Shayne Hawke

Shayne Hawke

Departed from Tyria

Join Date: May 2007

Clan Dethryche [dth]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasmitchies View Post
/notsigned Dude other people like them. Let them play the game they payed for and quit with the QQ.
I bought GW back in '05, can I get that game back?

@ OP: The only things that this could really work for are the professions specific ones to be made more profession specific. Skills from the Norn or Asura or the like couldn't possibly have such a tie, so there's probably not going to be a good uniform system of scaling for any of them.

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

/signed

Just to show people that pre-Nightfall skill actually mattered a bit in PvE.

And my Prophecies box, wherever it is, wouldn't be such a lying bastard about that Skill > Time thing.


I also loled about PvE = player need an upper hand. We have an upper hand already. We have IQ 100+. Maybe if you don't, then you MUST have titles.

DoomFrost

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Florida

E/

/not signed

Sorry doesn't make any sense to make PvE skills exclusive to one attribute.

ele pl

ele pl

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2007

E/

/signed so so
My idea (dreaming /on): Add a new atribute called "Pve Skills". You need to spend atribute in it, not in a primary atribute.
Better option to nerf: Add atributes like titles atm (atributes like kurzick atribute, ss atribute and so on). Each lvl in those atributes=better skill. Also, titles like those (ss, lb, and so on) just decrease cost of lvling that atribute.
For example (very random)
I want to have sunspear atribute r10, to pwn with intesify. 8 spec cost me for example 160 points, but i have sunspear rank 10, so it cost only 80 points. See that? (forget about numbers)

Marverick

Marverick

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

R/

Wow you people are retarded... no one is suggesting removing the titles so you can go ahead and grind them out on 10 chars if you want.

And so what if there is no in-game benefit for them?

PvE skills WILL STILL BE VIABLE and STILL MORE POWERFUL than regular skills... WTF is wrong with you people? 10 attribute points for a 2 * 100 AoE armor ignoring spike is more powerful than anything else you can spend those 10 points for.


Quote:
the reason for asking for PvE skills to be tied to attribute is in the hope that OP skills like CoP remains OP but tied to fast casting, so it is therefore available only to Mesmers but still does not nerf the skill one tiny bit IMO
No, that is NOT what I am proposing...
Tying them to SEPARATE attributes will force people to spend attribute points to use the skills effectively rather than getting overpowered skills for free. They will still be overpowered, I'm not asking that CoP be made 10..15 damage or something...

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Guru Wars: Assault of the Carebears.

Oh, and /Signed. Attributes should matter, and PvE skills can take up a total of 3/8 of your bar maximum - titles don't need to power PvE skills, it benefits the more "casual" players, grinding was never hard and if you want GWAMM, feel free to grind for it if you wish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by code1100
alot of players would be pissed (including me) and not much would be gained from this change ... for gods sake leave this game alone ... seriously this game became somthing else other than what I bought
Sorry, but this game became something other than what I bought too. This is reverting it back to "my" view, and is there really any negativity to it? You have to use attributes more carefully now! What the hell will be the big deal?

draxynnic

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onyx Blindbow
Remove AoE from CoP
Personally, I'd be inclined to make it work like Shatter Delusions and Drain Delusions by removing the hex it uses as a feeder. That way it'd still be usable by a single mesmer to get some AoE damage, but you wouldn't be able to get huge spikes out of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reflect View Post
/notsigned

So yeah
1st F*CK up all that grinded titles for those, so dumbf*cks can be happy
Plenty of those you are calling "dumbf*cks" are probably among those who originally bought GW because it was advertised as a grind-optional game.

I can see the reason for opposing a revert now because of the effort people have already gone into for grinding (although I'd personally have no problem with my Legendary Spearmarshal being no longer tied to skills), but the people who dislike the grind do have seniority when it comes to being upset about no longer having the game they paid for.

Titles were supposed to be there purely for vanity like elite armours, not as a second stage of powering up your character!

PS Oh, and... Prediction confirmed.

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomFrost View Post
/not signed

Sorry doesn't make any sense to make PvE skills exclusive to one attribute.
I think you have a Prophecies box with ya. If not, I'd like to remind you, what mine used to say (because, right now, it's probably recycled for the 5th time):


A game where your skill, not time spent playing, will bring you a victory over your foes.


Or something like that. PvE-Skills make my poor old box a liar.

Onyx Blindbow

Onyx Blindbow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

Here & There

Blades of Burning Shadows - GoDT

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marverick View Post
Wow you people are retarded... no one is suggesting removing the titles so you can go ahead and grind them out on 10 chars if you want.

And so what if there is no in-game benefit for them?

PvE skills WILL STILL BE VIABLE and STILL MORE POWERFUL than regular skills... WTF is wrong with you people? 10 attribute points for a 2 * 100 AoE armor ignoring spike is more powerful than anything else you can spend those 10 points for.

No, that is NOT what I am proposing...
Tying them to SEPARATE attributes will force people to spend attribute points to use the skills effectively rather than getting overpowered skills for free. They will still be overpowered, I'm not asking that CoP be made 10..15 damage or something...
Ok let's look at this again, take CoP as the skill in question.

You want an OP PvE only skill moving from Sunspear rank (in this case anyway) into an attribute based skill for the profession (in this case Mesmer) as a reduction to grinding.

or to look at it from another point of view

You want access to an OP skill without having to do anything other than buy a mesmer tome and use your attribute points.

What this does is remove the usefulness of anything other than a Mesmer (in this case) in actually using this skill.

People seem to forget that in playing nightfall (for instance) that you collect sunspear points as you go, so the ability to have skills linked to these to allow a little more flexibility in your bar was probably the raison d'etre behind the PvE skills, if you choose to grind the rank to it's maximum to get maximum benefit from the skill then that is your own call.

All you are saying is that you want fast access to OP skills with zero effort at all in a game that doesn't really need said skills to complete anything in any mode or any area.

Far better IMO to just nerf these PvE skills to levels similar to existing attribute based skills, CoP (for instance) should be the PvE rank/rep/faction tiered equivalent of Cry of Frustration, not a kill anything within a 100 mile blast radius skill as it is at present. this would allow the flexibility to bring these skills without turning the game into a joke or into a farmfest for SC groups as it is at present.

Sweet Mystery

Sweet Mystery

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Shadow Hunters Of Light [SHOL]

R/

/notsigned

Erm... and how would you tie this to attributes... have them as brand new ones to set points to? Make Anet re-write the whole attribute section to add in 8 new allocation areas?

Erm... no....

Leave PvE skills allocated to the already tied in levelling system... the rank obtained... why the need to change... none at all... just means those who want them can get them. You want access work for it, not ask for a cheapo way out...

ajc2123

ajc2123

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

North of the wall

Me/

/notsigned

Already split my attributes into fast casting/inspiration/illusion or domination. Defeats the purpose of having pve only skills. Don't like em? don't use em. That simple. I played back in just proph days too but I'm fine with the changes.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajc2123 View Post
/notsigned

Already split my attributes into fast casting/inspiration/illusion or domination. Defeats the purpose of having pve only skills. Don't like em? don't use em. That simple. I played back in just proph days too but I'm fine with the changes.
Oh, hi.

Removing the required grind on PvE skills will help form PuGs. Whether or not PuGs are bad, this will make them more accessable considering that when you introduce grind-based benefits, you're going to be having people being less inclusive.

Not using them isn't the point, and that's ignoring a problem which means the problem isn't solved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adebeus
A game where your skill, not time spent playing, will bring you a victory over your foes.
I'll take a common approach of the Carebear here and say:

IT DOESNTS MATTER IN PVES! >:<

Quote:
You want access work for it, not ask for a cheapo way out...
Guess what? I play this game to play this game, not to do repetetive chores. If I wanted to do that I'd be doing a full sweep over my room every hour instead of drumming or chilling out with my mates.

ajc2123

ajc2123

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

North of the wall

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla View Post
Oh, hi.

Removing the required grind on PvE skills will help form PuGs. Whether or not PuGs are bad, this will make them more accessable considering that when you introduce grind-based benefits, you're going to be having people being less inclusive.

Not using them isn't the point, and that's ignoring a problem which means the problem isn't solved.



Guess what? I play this game to play this game, not to do repetetive chores. If I wanted to do that I'd be doing a full sweep over my room every hour instead of drumming or chilling out with my mates.
There is no grind...Just grab the bounties when you quest, do a couple dungeons. Hell most pve skills are useful at extremely low ranks. Putting them in Attributes would make them almost unusable. If you put pve skills in an attribute then you need to remove the 3 skill limit to make it more worthy.

Also, yes, ignoring a problem can fix it. People can play with pve skills and be fast, they are happy, happy = fixed. People can play with more tactics and skill, they feel rewarded for doing it this way, they are happy, = fixed. All we need to do is stop caring how other people play and magical fixed all around!

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajc2123 View Post
There is no grind...Just grab the bounties when you quest, do a couple dungeons. Hell most pve skills are useful at extremely low ranks.
No grind? Completing everything won't give you everything you need, you will have to grind some time or other, and with Sunspear/Lightbringer, you're definately going to grind.

Quote:
Putting them in Attributes would make them almost unusable. If you put pve skills in an attribute then you need to remove the 3 skill limit to make it more worthy.
I lol'd. Elaborate, how will this make them unusable? You're being so terrible that you can't even reconfigure your build?

Quote:
Also, yes, ignoring a problem can fix it. People can play with pve skills and be fast, they are happy, happy = fixed. People can play with more tactics and skill, they feel rewarded for doing it this way, they are happy, = fixed. All we need to do is stop caring how other people play and magical fixed all around!
Remember Ursan? The dominant skill that was declining 3 major principles of the game? You seen how popular that was, and you just can't ignore it at all. That is, unless you want to search around for ages for the guild / team / friends that actually plays something different and will be there for you whenever you want to do it. Otherwise, you're going to be completely seperated from player engagement unless you grind the title.

Speed was already existant, but you had to be skillful to get "uber" times.

I have a question. If there was a skill that killed everything in the map that was free, would that be alright to you? Would you just ignore it?

You don't see games like Halo 3 having the Spartan Laser fire as fast as an Assault Rifle or have as much "bullets" as a turret.

MithranArkanere

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

When PvE skills are proved to be excessive, they get nerfed.

For the last time. PvE can't be balanced, because both sides are not in equal footage. What's the most balanced game? Flip a coin: 50:50. Add more variables and balance gets harder. Mind vs AI? That absolutely can't be balanced. That's why many games have difficulty settings. When AI is involved, what is easy for some may be hard for others, and vice versa.

Some PvE skills are overpowered because some monster are overpowered too. That's all about it.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by MithranArkanere View Post
When PvE skills are proved to be excessive, they get nerfed.

For the last time. PvE can't be balanced, because both sides are not in equal footage. What's the most balanced game? Flip a coin: 50:50. Add more variables and balance gets harder. Mind vs AI? That absolutely can't be balanced. That's why many games have difficulty settings. When AI is involved, what is easy for some may be hard for others, and vice versa.

Some PvE skills are overpowered because some monster are overpowered too. That's all about it.
So, because something is unbalancable, it's something to be ignored? No game is balancable, so let's apply that same logic shall we? Ignoring the problem is stupid, while trying to fix the problem as much as possible is a smart approach that isn't lazy at all.

Sure, the AI has stupid powerful abilities, but our ability to improve more overcomes that. Either that or you believe you're a bot too.

pumpkin pie

pumpkin pie

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

behind you

bumble bee

E/

what we have now is max rank 10 for pve skills right. so if you follow, say, the primary profession of the character for the attribute, does it means can boost to rank 16 ?

If so /signed. although I don't use PvE skills

MithranArkanere

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla View Post
So, because something is unbalancable, it's something to be ignored? No game is balancable, so let's apply that same logic shall we? Ignoring the problem is stupid, while trying to fix the problem as much as possible is a smart approach that isn't lazy at all.

Sure, the AI has stupid powerful abilities, but our ability to improve more overcomes that. Either that or you believe you're a bot too.
Yes, games can be balanced:
- Flip a coin.
- Tic tac toe.
- Rock, Paper, Scissors.
- Chess
- Checkers
- Parcheesi
- ALL card games.
- Backgammon
- And the list goes on forever.
What have all those games in common? Both sides are in equal footage and have the same chances to win.

You don't balance making all characters of the same side equal. You balance by making both sides equal. And that can't be done in PvE.
Some professions may be more effective in some areas than others, but they are all in the same side. You don't balance the game by making all of them equally effective. You may make the game more fair, and that's good, but that's not balance, because people that win together don't fight with each other. You party leader it's not your enemy.

What I say it's not "Do not balance them". What I say it's "Limit them when they are too much". And that has been done since the start of the game, and will keep happening.
And that it's not balance, that's 'limitation'. Balance it's when both sides are in equal footage and have the same chances to win. But that in PvE would be simply ridiculous! Why? Because we would have 50% chances to win in EACH fight against each party with the same number of monsters as us. And you may have to fight 50 parties or more in one area.
That won't be fun, that would be just frustrating.