Solving the Problem of "Suicide MMs" in Fort Aspenwood

OK so the tittle kinda says it all. Me and a bunch of my guildies have a lot of fun in Fort Aspenwood. We play it legitimately, we do not leach, most are good sports and don't taunt the other players and in general we just have a lot of fun.

But, in the last couple weeks the abuse of a game mechanic has really killed the fun of FA. For some reason a couple losers think its funny to create a minion army using Aura of the Lich and then sacrifice themselves to death next to Gunther causing their mms to kill gunther. I have personally been in 4 rounds were this happened and my friends have been in countless others. This is abusing a game mechanic and should not be aloud to continue. There are two ways to fix this problem,

First you could give the Gatekeepers [Verata's Gaze]
or second you could nerf (I know i hate to suggest it) Arua of the Lich so it cannot create minions without corpses.

please sign if you agree
Lets keep GW a place were a bunch of losers cannot spoil our fun.


Edited by Celestial Beaver: Edited Thread Title for Clarity

I've added a poll to this thread.

Personally, I don't think there needs to be any changes here. Kurzicks already have a massive advantage, and usually force any good Luxon team to take enchantment removal for Gunther. If the Kurzicks think they have to take Minion stealing / killing abilities, isn't this just going to level the playing field a bit?

So how is this different to someone legimately killing the MM? When that happens the minions are hostile.

Adding [Veratas gaze] to anything other than a player gives the Kurzick side an advantage on the game level which is even more unfair.

When it comes down to it, this sounds like someone is just on purposely sabotaging the game on the Kurz side. If people see it then the Kurz need to defend their NPCs.

Its all about a challenge and someone looking after their side of things. Don't think a nerf or change should be done for this occassional occurrance.

Minions Created by AoTL Should Die if there master does.

Cool thanks Celestial I did not think of a poll. But as for leveling the playing field that is like saying yea its ok to put a leacher on the kurz side... just lets make him a little worse than leacher and actually have him trying to kill the critical NPCs.

Dusanyu might be on to something.... but then they would probably just put death nova on a few of the minions and spike the npc.

This solves it rather nicely. And counts as passive boost of this skill too.

Try to keep your minions alive with a turtle spamming their attacks
You lose 5min to create your minion army,then "boooooooooooom" and you are dead.

But yeah...Maybe AotL need a "nerf" (PVP only please )

So let's see... all the kurz that spend all the time monking NPCs behind closed gates so luxon can't get to them (and that's basically the only thing they need to do to win this one)...

And all the kurz players that join the luxon side to just leave...

And all the leechers in that are on the luxon side... of which the last time I played FA yesterday the kurz team told me: "it's normal to have leechers on the luxon side, players don't need to do anything, NPCs do everything for you"...

OK so all this things are OK. But when one luxon finds some way/build to give him an advantage in a clearly unbalanced map you start complaining.

At least luxons have to do something to win it, kurz just need to sit on their butt and heal/protect.

Hmm... as for me (as I play luxon)... FA is far from being fun and probably I won't spend a lot of time there. It's just a leechers' haven and kurz fff by being super extra defensive which just makes the game last forever with the kurz winning most of the time. I don't even know why luxon players bother to join that mission. We should all quit and let the kurz wait forever to get an opposing party to join.

Nah doesnt need anymore chance

the only thing i dont like about aura of the litch is that in pvp areas if you are running 8 of them and have them all spamming and making minions before the match starts it makes the game lag and thus makes it un fare to the team running something else.

So wait, people are going into the KURZICK side, making minions on the KURZICK side.....sacrificing themselves on the KURZICK side so that KURZICKS loose and a lot of you guys are ok with sabatoge?

What the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO.

I like the suggestion where minions die when the person does if raised by AotL. PvP change please.

I can't believe how many of you just go and say sabatoge is ok. wtf happened to the community. Leechers are bad enough as it is, we dont need SUPER leechers.

Never have I once joined the opposite team just to RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO with them. No one else should get the chance.

So according to the GWG fans, intentionally causing your side to lose (i.e. "griefing") is now a worthwhile and valid tactic.

"Fort Aspenwood is so hard to win with all the griefers on the Luxon side, so Luxon will now install griefers on the Kurzick side to even things out a bit."

I think a lot of you aren't getting the point. Kurzick MM players are getting themselves killed, and Gunther in the process too.

If this isn't griefing I don't know what is.

Theres one thing i would be concerned about if that were to happen. How the game mechanics are setup with death nova. When the death occurs first of the MM then i would presume death nova could then work on any char, thus still being able to nova minion bomb gunther. "If my presumptions are true"

Something to think about.

Thing is theres no real way to stop a MM from going out and fighting for a bit, massing an minion army and coming back to do the same thing.

Seems to me a possible solution is to treat the NPCs like a Guild Lord, where they can only take lose so much health during certain time period. That might mean extending the time of the match some, but hey its a possibility.

Umm i been in a match with 2 of these mm's. how do you know they are kurz? and they said it themselves its fun to hurt the kurz this way. said it made the match more "challenging". WTH? i started playing fa for quick kurz points/balth points. but whats the point now if people like this play and no one else but 1 or 2 people report them.

/signed

either have minions die when mm died. and yes i know its hard to make mions in fa i've played it once. or nerf the skill in pvp. if this happened in some other pvp like gvg would you care then? and its not occassional. stand in fa for a few hours more then 1-8 matchs with one certain mm has failed by this action. so no its not occassional.

One easy way to fix would make it impossible to use a health sacrificing skill unless you have the health on your bar. So the skills will not work unless you have 1 hp more than what is required.

I have also been in some matches with a saccer. A suggestion I heard was to make it so you can't enter the battle unless you are Kurzick aligned. That sounds like a possibility.

You forgot the "I think this is insignificant" poll option. Just deal with this like you deal with spirit spam griefers.

I don't like the idea of altering [aura of the lich] (description not current) at this point. It won't prevent griefing/minion bombing. Rather, I would change the following:

In challenge missions, NPCs would not be attacked or take damage from neutral creatures, including from enchantment/hex triggers on those creatures.

If they did this, killing the NPC by griefing would not work unless they could get a Luxon with Verata's in the vicinity to take control of the neutral minions.

Not going to go in to the "who has the major advantage in FA" argument again, but lately there have been quite a few of these MM griefers in FA, sometimes 2 in the same match. And a certain NAME whom everyone knows already and even has a video of it on youtube. Even though I mostly play monk and ritualist there for healing, it's hard sometimes to keep an eye out for the griefer while trying to keep green alive.

Some of you are saying how this 'balances the game out for luxons'. Again not going into the whole argument of who has the advantage here (even though it's pretty damn obvious), but while the leechers won't make you lose 1 minute into the match, the MM griefers will. So you spend all this time waiting (and wait times are pretty long for kurzicks) only to gain no faction.

This is yet another way to kill the enjoyment of the mission alongside all the leeching and botting, as everyone who plays FA already knows who they are. This really does need to stop, and the minions dying suggestion is a pretty good one although something would need to be done to prevent death nova abuse

I like the idea of making it so you can sacrifice health (in a PVP setting) upto the point where you would not die. So you can only sacrifice the health if you're still going to alive after you sacrifice it.

My understanding of what the OP is saying is that Luxons, or just people in general, will go in on the Kurzick side, build an army of minions, and intentionally sacrifice themselves so that their Kurzick army of minions becomes neutral and then attacks the Kurzick NPCs.

That being the case, that seems very wrong to me. And anyone that would support these kind of backhanded actions because it 'balances' an admittedly unbalanced arena (I'm Kurzick and play in FA at least every other night with my guild, but I have played the Luxon side and frankly it seems unfair) should be banned. This is worse than leeching - at least then all you're doing is taking up a spot, which is bad enough, but with these minion bombers they are actively trying to sabotage the other side.

I have not, however encountered this firsthand, but it sounds like something that will happen more and more often. :/

Yes.

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Griefer

I agree with this but ONLY in a PvP version but as for the rest really can't do much about dumb people sabatoging your game

/report leeching .....gg

Like I said earlier… set it so you can not kill your self with sacrificing skills in PVP. Granted you could have a vampiric weapon but at least you could not take yourself out in a couple seconds.

Ok I don't want to give the impression that I am QQing... I just see something being abused and want it fixed. Thats QQing?

Anyhow I think the point is that Griefing is NOT a good thing, even if the arena is unbalanced. Its just unsportsmanlike and should be restrained whenever possible. In this case I just wanted to see if you guys liked my ideas or had some better ones.

The point of this thread is to get the GW community aware of a problem and perhaps come up with a solution that would work for everyone.

I decided to bring Verata's, just in case we get a saccer.

It's called health swaps combined with vampiric weapon. Sac down to 40 or so with a +60 health set, swap off of it and you instantly die with a vampiric. How do you think infusers killed themselves in the old minion factory days?

Yes i DO realize that the person is talking about people on their own team, im not stupid. I am defending it from a luxon point of view. I am all for finding random and new ways to get things done... if the luxons want to try a FFF with FA using a spy and syncing, Awesome. If someone is bored and wants to have some kicks and giggles, by watching themselves sack themselves, then go ahead... simple yes, i am supporting it. Its a brilliant way to kill time, and gain Luxon Factions

btw, if you plan on having Gunthor or whoever add the skill your suggesting... it isnt going to stop a minion ARMY... there are better skills to take care of them (see other verata skills)...

OR here's another idea.... why run a Mo/N. that way you can Monk AND bring your own minion stealing skill... *gasp (Again!)*

^What if, due to the random teams, you don't end up with the said Mo/N while the griefer gets in instead? gg? or are you expecting everyone to go /N just so they can stop the saccer? Funny because luxons were complaining about bonders, yet no one bothers to bring enchant removal (Well of the Profane). See, it's not so different after all is it.

Also you seem to encourage poor, un-sportsmanship behavior just so you can "get a kick out of it"? Sounds like the typical griefer's mentality. Or are you saying it's okay simply because you can win even easier now? So mega imba turtle is not enough, now you need someone to mess up the other team just so you can get an easy win?

When a game mechanic is being abused, it's natural to try and fix the problem so as to keep things balanced. And the fact that these 4 people doing this is forcing EVERYONE else to go /N for Verata's... that's saying a lot now isn't it?

i Played four games in FA today. The first 3 times i got one of those griefers in my team. They make minions, sacrifice health with blood of the master and then use illusion of weakness, dying near Gatekeepers.
Then they hide somewhere in the map so the other players can't report them. Even with that, we won 2 games of 3 with that "handicap".


The one we lost, the necro laughed at us, so we know that they aren't bots.
When i took aura of verata, we had no griefers, but i bothered a luxon mm, which was mad at me.

vamp weapon ftw

What i was about to suggest... LOL good work..

If you go to FA for quick factions i see you somewhat as one of those people looking for quick gold generating ways. no offense, but at least work for it, btw AB is more fun.

I find those competitive missions retarded, because on one side you're healing and the other theres probably no possible way to win if all the other side is healing.

So..... if someone raises their minions, casts death nova or whatever.... goes near Gunther and sacs to death and game over? People suggesting to stop allowing saccing to death. Minions turn hostile if the MM leaves too... so want to stop them leaving pvp matches as well if that the case?

Seems some people are just pissing their teams off... bad sportsmanship and all that... just the same as ages ago people would join on the other side and leave - like in AB.

I dont think any game/skill nerf can resolve those issues... just players being *censored word* to others.....

I don't think its any diffrent from someone using other builds like a ranger spamming spirits like Quickening Zephyr,edge of extinction, natures renewal, Tranquility, and quicksand back by gunthar to harm your team.

Stupid people will find a way

Give them a "monster skill" called Undead Immunity: Target is immune to all attacks from minions without masters. Problem solved...good day. That way you don't negate a real MMs abilitys in the map but you negate the griefers.

I'm not an FA player, but after reading this thread, well:

If I'm getting this straight, there are griefer MMs who suicide near Gunther so that the minions will kill him and thus end the game with a victory for the Luxon side, yes? From an objective point of view, since I don't play Aspenwood - for those saying it 'levels the playing field'... I don't know, to me it seems like it's actually encouraging leechers on the Lux side, because they know there are griefers on the Kurz side that will win the match and give them the free faction. Considering the numerous threads complaining about the state of FA/JQ, I think that would just make things worse.

I'm thinking something like Punjabi's solution would be better, because something like the 'preventing you from sacrificing yourself to death' change would, well, affect all PvP arenas, not just FA/JQ. It doesn't make sense in an arena where the AotL griefing is not an issue: I mean, if some guy misjudges his health and sacs to death, he needs to learn from that experience, not mindlessly spam spells just because someone changed it to 'you can't sac yourself to death'. (Also, if it triggered nasty changes in other arenas, you'd get a fresh round of complaints, which doesn't solve anything.)

Aura of the Lich and RoJ are probably the most stupid and idiotic skill changes ever! That said, 10M factions is awful lot. Hence the problem. I know that as I am getting close to maxing my 2nd allegiance title. Even though time is halved now almost but, its still quite painful w/ absolutely zero game monitoring by NCSoft/ANET.

AotL shouldn't create minions w/o bodies and the lvl of minions utilizing AotL should not exceed 12. As fasr as FA problem is concerned, they should give Amulet of Protection Gunther making him impossible to be killed in the first minute of the match. The amulet protection should wear off in subsequent minutes.

In addition to that these kind of people should be reported as scammers. And there should be a process in-game to lock scammers, botters and leechers out of the arena where they created the nuissance for a period of time.

The same thing used to happen in AB before ANet changed [[Edge of Extinction] to only deal damage if someone was below 90% health. Primarily Luxon players would get a guest invite to a Kurzick Guild by whatever means necessary, or Kurzick players would do the same to get a guest invite to a Luxon Guild, get a 4-man EoE Bomb team together, and in the minute of wait time for the match to start, they'd sac off and kill the entire "allied" team. Since the rez timer did not start until the match started (and even if it did, it's simple to time an EoE Bomb of allies - they can't do much to stop you unless you have enough Monks to prot/heal through the Bomb spikes), the team with the EoE Bomb griefers were dead for the first 20 seconds of map play, allowing the opposing side to cap all the shrines and camp your base so you couldn't leave.

The best you can do is to /report them. That's it. AotL already received a tweaking. The tweak it received is absolutely fine. It does not need to be nerfed. Self-sac is a danger when you run sac skills, it's to balance to power of the skills, so you can't make it so that you can't sac yourself to death in a PvP split - not to mention, that's a simple problem, as has been mentioned before, swap to a +60hp set, sac until you are below 60hp, then swap to a +0hp set with a Vamp weapon, you instagib yourself.

So what if FA favors the Kurzicks. In AB you have to deal with both The Ancestral Lands and Kanaai Canyon, which favor Kurzicks/Luxons respectively. Hell, even Amatz Basin and Etnaran Keys favor their respective Factions, albeit less than Ancestral/Kanaai. This is how the maps were designed. Deal with it, or don't play on them, it's as simple as that.

Besides, what if (big if here, but still) a Luxon group wanted to attempt FA because it favors the Kurzicks, and they wanted a challenge? God forbid someone would want to do something that was in the least bit difficult, or challenging, or maybe something that wasn't roll-your-face-across-the-keyboard easy as piss. No, we can't have any of that, now can we?

For the players who have decided to carry [[Verata's Aura] or [[Verata's Gaze] to counter these griefers, good job. You used your brain to figure out a way to negate their entire tactic with a single skill.

The only suggestion for change that I have seen thus far that I could remotely agree with would be to not allow players who are aligned with one faction to enter competitive maps teamed with the opposing faction. No Kurzick-aligned players allowed to enter as/on a Luxon team, no Luxon-aligned players to enter as/on a Kurzick team. I don't see ANet doing this, but it is by far the most viable suggestion yet.

Skills don't need nerfs, NPCs don't need buffs, the map doesn't need to be made more Luxon-friendly/advantageous or less Kurzick-friendly/advantageous, you just have to /report or learn to deal with the griefer's tactics.

Ok thats a pathetic excuse... so basically some peeps are bored so they are going to ruin the fun for a whole bunch of other peeps? yea gg, what a loser.

tbh the lux have as much of an advantage as the kurz (I was lux once I know) I synced a good team multiple times and completely sacked the kurz. cmon you have two imba turtles that take out half a chars health with one hit. if you cant win on the lux side then something is wrong.

And equally so with the kurz side I have synced good teams over there and won before. yea your the defending force and in warfare that normally gives a natural advantage. but its not invincable if you have decent builds.

Anyhow sorry for the rant... just got out of 3 rounds in a row that had anywhere from 1-3 Suicide MMs in them. Seriously guys even through I am bringing some of the counters suggested hear you are still losing yourself as a player and the suicide MMs from your team... you just cant win with those odds esp if you get a half way decent lux team.

Anyhow I have emailed screens shots and the char names of griefers I have cought to Anet... hopefully something will be done about this, until then I think I am done with FA for a bit.