What exactly are you spamming that you -need- that much energy, really? [Attacker's insight] is enough even with low investment, especially if you throw something like [Lyssa's Assault].
Point being, with high mysticism I've run a full build focused on spamming attack skills without the need of -any- energy management skills.
Besides, the lowest recharging attack skill you'd be using is what, 4 seconds? and costs 5 energy? I believe you recover that much in natural regen waiting for it to recharge.
It's definitly not a -useless- skill persay, but unless you lack the ability (low mysticism) or are the simple minded 1-2-3 type, you can easily get around having to devote an elite for something like that.
Avatars vs. Attack Elites in PvE
Axel Zinfandel
Saraneth
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Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel
Quote: Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel [Attacker's Insight] is enough even with low investment, especially if you throw something like [Lyssa's Assault]. Your original argument was based on mysticism alone providing enough nrg management for a dervish. Even mentioning other sources of nrg implies that you doubt your own argument's worth.
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Define: "low mysticism." If you're interested in avatars, then high mysticism would be the way to go. In regard to nrg, mysticism will always pale in comparison to [[Zealous Vow], as its effect can be amplified by hitting mutliple foes.|
Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel
Besides, the lowest recharging attack skill you'd be using is what, 4 seconds? and costs 5 energy? I believe you recover that much in natural regen waiting for it to recharge. [/B]
Attack skills, not skill. [[Eremites Attack (PVE)], [[Mystic Sweep (PVE)], [[Victorious Sweep], etc.
Axel Zinfandel
My original argument was pointing out abusing heroes to hotkey enchants like Patient Spirit, or Reversal of Fortune on you, which end quickly and provide you with very good energy management without stopping yourself.
Say you're spamming attacks, need energy. Hit a key, target yourself, hit another key, patient spirit on you. It ends, you get healed and gain 4/5 energy. Bam, that's one of you're attack skills right there. If you -do- have low mysticism, which by all means you probably shouldn't, but if you DO, I was just pointing out that Attacker's Insight is a very nice skill coupled with Lyssa's Assault.
Saraneth
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Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel
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Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel
...Attacker's Insight is a very nice skill coupled with Lyssa's Assault.
Assuming that [[Lyssa's Assault] would only be used in conjuction with [[Attacker's Insight], you'd end up wasting 2 slots for nrg management with a 15 sec recharge. Considering that you won't be using [[Lyssa's Assault] unless [[Attacker's Insight] is available, you lose out on dps.
Expherious
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Originally Posted by Megas XLR
My favorite skill to use for a tank Dervish is Great Dwarf Armor. It seems to fit Dervish very well and allows you to use Windwalkers because it replaces the HP you sacrifice by not using Survivor Insignias.
I like to throw Conviction, Vital Boon and AoB for a Huge armor boost + WW's you can tank anyTING!
Tyla
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Originally Posted by Saraneth
Seriously, you need energy management sometimes, but unless you've got 2 pips of energy and you're spamming skills like that like no tomorrow with a weapon unable to hit multiple targets, then you should really sort your stuff out.
Saraneth
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Originally Posted by Tyla
If you need more energy management than [[Attacker's Insight] and a zealous scythe on a Dervish...
I never said that you'd need more nrg management than [[Attacker's Insight]. However, I did mention that use of [[Attacker's Insight] with [[Lyssa's Assault] would be a waste.
The original discussion centered on mysticism vs. [[Zealous Vow], which is ideal for spamming attacks since it outdoes mysticism in nrg gain in most situations. Tyla
It's still part of this energy management discussion. Zealous Vow just isn't useful when you've got access to a non-elite energy management skill that's completely stupid in power or when you can gain 3 energy every attack when correctly positioned using a zealous scythe. Mysticism also is pretty powerful, but again, you do not need energy management past Attackers' Insight or a zealous scythe, so all in all it's a pretty bad discussion when you've already got something far more powerful you can talk about.
Seriously, it's like discussing the Amiga and ZX Spectrum models of computers when we have far better to work with in terms of space used, power and capacity.
Megas XLR
With Zealous Vow you don't even need a Zealous Scythe though, you can pull out a Vampiric or Elemental Scythe and start doing even more damage. Zealous Vow does not pale in comparison to Mysticism, they're just two different styles of gameplay.
I'd say it's like comparing a PC and Mac. EDIT: I honestly don't see why it would be any different from a Warrior pulling out Warrior's Endurance. People praise that it has unlimited energy, while Zealous Vow does the exact same thing. Tyla
Jesus christ...
Zealous Vow costs an elite slot. You know what that elite slot can do for you? Shit tons of stuff. If you want vamp so badly, pull out AoG, you don't HAVE to camp your Zealous weapon set, because there is a super special awesome thing called weapon swapping. In any case, I personally don't touch zealous at all because I don't need to, Attackers' Insight has it all for me. Also, the difference between Warriors' Endurance and Zealous Vow is skill selection and your profession in general. Warriors have 2 energy pips and spammable attack skills in Strength which are awfully strong, [[power attack] is one of these, but spamming it with 2 pips just kills your energy even with a zealous weapon. When you get Warriors' Endurance, hey look, 3 energy every hit, it can't be stripped, it lasts ages... There are lots of other elites, but the skills the elite powers favour non-elite skills a lot. Zealous Vow, not so much. We have Attackers' Insight and a zealous scythe which can give up to 3 energy an attack. We don't have to use both or any of them, but they're there, and as long as they are, we do not need to waste an elite slot.
Megas XLR
I think you're overreacting. I didn't say that Mysticism is a bad attribute and that I don't use it, but Zealous Vow isn't completely useless.
They're two completely different styles of using a Dervish.
Bobby2
So [zealous vow] can be used to spam attack skills. Problem is, besides [mystic sweep], [victorious sweep], and possibly [eremite's attack], I can't think of others I'd want to be spamming - and I don't need ZV for the above
Saraneth
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Originally Posted by Tyla
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Quote: Originally Posted by Tyla ...the difference between Warriors' Endurance and Zealous Vow is skill selection... When it comes to [[Warrior's Endurance] scythe wars, the skill selection doesn't vary greatly from [[Zealous Vow] dervish bars.
[build prof=W/D name="WE Scythe" box strength=12 scythe=12 desc="Weapon #1: Vampiric Scythe{br}Weapon #2: Sundering Scythe"][Warrior's Endurance][Mystic Sweep][Eremites Attack][Power Attack][Whirlwind Attack][Flail][Asuran Scan][Aura of Holy Might][/build]
[build prof=D/W name="Zealous Vow" box myst=3 wind=12 scythe=12 desc="Weapon #1: Vampiric Scythe{br}Weapon #2: Sundering Scythe"][Zealous Vow][Mystic Sweep][Eremites Attack][Victorious Sweep][Whirlwind Attack][Whirling Charge][Asuran Scan][Aura of Holy Might][/build]
Quote: Originally Posted by Tyla Warriors' Endurance, hey look, 3 energy every hit, it can't be stripped, it lasts ages... Even if [[Zealous Vow] was stripped, its 12 sec recharge allows for a rather swift recovery, and with that in mind, its 20 sec duration makes it every bit as maintainable as [[Warrior's Endurance].
This also serves separate it from [[Attacker's Insight], which has a longer recharge and can also be stripped. While the chance of it being stripped before you get off three attacks remains low, the likelihood of you running into nrg issues when it occurs does not.
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Give me skills you'd want to spam on a Dervish. Why waste your elite when you don't need to?|
Originally Posted by Tyla
I'm not saying Zealous Vow is completely useless, or arguing for or against Mysticism.
That was the main focus of the argument, everything else is tangent if not irrelevant. Quote:
4 pips of energy, lack of attack skills that you can hit every 3 seconds.
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[build prof=D/W name="Zealous Vow" box myst=3 wind=12 scythe=12 desc="Weapon #1: Vampiric Scythe{br}Weapon #2: Sundering Scythe"][Zealous Vow][Mystic Sweep][Eremites Attack][Victorious Sweep][Whirlwind Attack][Whirling Charge][Asuran Scan][Aura of Holy Might][/build] You need Zealous Vow to spam them? With a Warrior you have less to work with, because they actually need the energy management.
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I'm a frontliner - I do damage, I body block. I can do damage even with conditions (since I'm immune), I allow monks to save energy due no need to remove my conditions, I can do damage while I'm hexed with my enchantments. I can even pack an interrupt or save yourselves.
If you still don't believe that is possible then pm me and I will show you in game if that is what is needed, although many other good mel players will tell you the same.
What this means is if you are facing mesmers with energy surge pre-cast eternal aura and go in with ur scythe. After they surge you, swap to staff and cast other stuff.
Its valid for any dervish using attackers insight and/or enchantments.
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Even if [[Zealous Vow] was stripped, its 12 sec recharge allows for a rather swift recovery, and with that in mind, its 20 sec duration makes it every bit as maintainable as [[Warrior's Endurance]. This also serves separate it from [[Attacker's Insight], which has a longer recharge and can also be stripped. While the chance of it being stripped before you get off three attacks remains low, the likelihood of you running into nrg issues when it occurs does not. You only need to use Attackers' Insight very rarely if you're not bad. Quote:
Fortunately I'm using [[aura of holy might]. You might not be aware, BUT IT CONVERTS ALL THE DAMAGE YOU DO WITH A SCYTHE TO HOLY DAMAGE.
If you don't believe me go use wild blow on undead mobs. First city thing in NF is a good practice place. Quote: |
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Wrong! I play all the time and I never get energy deprived unless they energy surge me to death while on my staff set, which any dervish will.
If you still don't believe that is possible then pm me and I will show you in game if that is what is needed, although many other good mel players will tell you the same.
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I'm saying unless they catch me with energy surge while I'm using my staff, I will have the energy on the staff available.
unless you're going to come up with another excuse that you micro your monk heroes enchantments on yourself or maybe you only tested this build in Asuran maps but not other places  . PvE has mesmers you know.
Aegis, PS, SB, SA are part of my heroes builds. I generally play with another person at least or with 2 accounts. Mysticism gives 4 energy back when an enchantment ends on you - attackers insight fuel 3 attacks (if you are using the energy from the staff to cast it) for example for 1 energy.Quote:
The more I look I at it the more you put me in disbelief. Sure you can run it, lest you spend 10 seconds autoattacking before you can reach maximum effectiveness even with the 4 energy gain from Attacker's Insight. I think you're struggling to keep your energy up rather than focusing on what's going on around your character with that bar.
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Wrong! I play all the time and I never get energy deprived unless they energy surge me to death while on my staff set, which any dervish will.
You telling me that you get e-Surge on your staff set and you still have energy to use skills? I was hoping you're saying the opposite, since people switch to high energy set when they are energy deprived.
Facts:
You telling me that you get e-Surge on your staff set and you still have energy to use skills? I was hoping you're saying the opposite, since people switch to high energy set when they are energy deprived.
Dervish base energy - 25. Staff - min 10 energy. I use a 15 one. Avatar of Mel duration @13 mysticism - 66 seconds Natural energy regen - 4 energy every 3 seconds or 88 energy during a complete Mel avatar cycle. Cast Mel when zone. You have around 53 seconds to cast eternal aura to never stop avatar form. Pre-cast attackers insight with staff energy. Go into the mob. Cast eternal aura and aura of holy might. Use your 2 attacks, get energy back. Cast heart of fury and more attackers insight. From now on you are set. No need for zealous. Swap for staff to cast mel avatar and repeat the loop. Zealous scythe makes this smoother, especially if u need to cast mel mid fight. Yes WY builds are easier, but that doesn't mean better. Lets look at energy expenditures over 66 seconds. WY can be used 22 times @5e = 110 energy Avatar 25e+ eternal aura 10e + Wearying strike @5e x11 uses = 90 energy Extreme cases of course, but players are saying they need deep wound every 3 seconds and 6 seconds recharge make wearying strike bad, but after all spamming WY cost mores energy. Sure it can deal more damage depending on the circumstance, but for max effect WY needs to hit 66 enemies in 66 seconds (3 enemies per use) or 1 enemy each second for the astonishing sum of 3600 enemies per hour. Wearying strike to peak max efficiency needs to hit 33 enemies in the same 66 seconds or 1800 enemies per hour. Absurd numbers both. If they only hit 1 enemy per use, WY needs 20 enemies every minute or 1200 enemies per hour. Wearying strike, in the same situation, needs to hit 10 enemies every minute or 600 enemies per hour. Still absurd. Putting in other way, wearying strike can hit between 10 to 30 enemies per minute translating into 600 to 1800 enemies per hour! Wounding strike can hit between 20 to 60 enemies per minute translating into 1200 to 3600 enemies per hour! OK! I'm sold! I really need deep wound every 3 seconds, because I'm facing at least 20 enemies per minute or 1200 enemies per hour! Quote: |
What this means is if you are facing mesmers with energy surge pre-cast eternal aura and go in with ur scythe. After they surge you, swap to staff and cast other stuff.
Its valid for any dervish using attackers insight and/or enchantments.
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More resilient? That's a probable aspect if you are willing to look out from a single bar and look at the party's bar. Most of the time a single cast of Protective Spirit from a monk covers the dervish's arse on the frontline adequately. If your party sucks, no matter what skills you bring, you are still going down fast like a toilet flush.
Of course 70 armor dudes go down faster than 80 armor dudes and take a bit more time to go down than 60 armor dudes. The most important is that warriors have 100 al vs physical, 80 vs elem and might still run a shield for 16 extra armor (not counting any +10 inscriptions on the shield) depending of weapon of choice and even assassins will have 90+ armor due to critical agility. +100 health is a reasonable boost and its there even vs armor ignoring damage. Conditions immunity means no blind, no weakness, no deep wound, no cripple. Even degen conditions can be annoying. Quote:
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