So, its been a while since Shadowsteps have been nerfed to all professions.
Why does Anet rather remove Shadowsteps from all professions in high-end PvP, instead of putting Shadowsteps into the Assassins primary attribute?
Why is it not better to give Assassins the Shadowstepping ability back and give them back the entrance to GvG?
Why has Anet decided to just remove them from high-end PvP?
And why has Anet tried to make the Sin comabt style to that of a GvG Warrior?
Why aren't they making the Sin into something different from the other two melees, why are they trying to make all the melees play the same as the typical GvG Warrior?
Thoughts?
Assassins, Shadowstep & Balance
wtfisgoingon
M1EK
Shadowsteps are broken. Izzy said that removing skills entirely is hard, so instead they just nerf them to oblivion. See: [smiter's boon].
xXDragonorFuryXx
i just ordered factions so i wouldnt know but assassins arent aloud in guild versus guild?
that sucks
that sucks
moriz
they are allowed, but they're just not any good in gvg anymore, other than byob (that is, bring your own build randomway gvg). as such, nobody uses them.
btw, even if shadowsteps becomes assassin exclusive, people STILL won't use them in gvg. there's no need for them in gvg anymore, since they are bad at ganking the lord, and ganking npcs is not nearly as important as before.
btw, even if shadowsteps becomes assassin exclusive, people STILL won't use them in gvg. there's no need for them in gvg anymore, since they are bad at ganking the lord, and ganking npcs is not nearly as important as before.
moriz
and what would their function be then?
here's the problem with your argument: even IF all shadowsteps are suddenly assassin exclusive, people STILL won't use them. why? because gvg right now does not need another rogue-style character that is highly mobile. warriors and rangers have that covered between them. assassins are certainly more mobile, but that doesn't matter. that mobility won't do anything when the character using it is a glass cannon and cannot sustain damage, nor can provide consistent disruption.
here's the problem with your argument: even IF all shadowsteps are suddenly assassin exclusive, people STILL won't use them. why? because gvg right now does not need another rogue-style character that is highly mobile. warriors and rangers have that covered between them. assassins are certainly more mobile, but that doesn't matter. that mobility won't do anything when the character using it is a glass cannon and cannot sustain damage, nor can provide consistent disruption.
wtfisgoingon
Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
here's the problem with your argument: even IF all shadowsteps are suddenly assassin exclusive, people STILL won't use them. why? because gvg right now does not need another rogue-style character that is highly mobile. warriors and rangers have that covered between them.
that means they need to nerf warriors' mobility. and give that function back to assassins?
Quote:
assassins are certainly more mobile, but that doesn't matter. that mobility won't do anything when the character using it is a glass cannon and cannot sustain damage, nor can provide consistent disruption.
sins are swifter in short bursts. in the long run the warrior can outrun the sin.
they cannot deal consistent damage, yes.
but at least give them back their spike potential with the surprise element of shadowsteps,
they dont need to be consistently attacking like the warrior.... we already have two melees like that, we dont need a third, we also DONT want a third like that.
give them another playstyle, give them back the hit and run style with the aid of shadowstepping...
so, it looks like the problem is that:
they've given the warrior TOO MUCH, all in one => armor, spike potential, ability to fake spikes, mobility. pretty much everything every other melee has and better.
solution?
nerf warriors?
but there will obviously be too many warrior players who will defend this, as they want to keep their warrior staying superior.
sins are swifter in short bursts. in the long run the warrior can outrun the sin.
they cannot deal consistent damage, yes.
but at least give them back their spike potential with the surprise element of shadowsteps,
they dont need to be consistently attacking like the warrior.... we already have two melees like that, we dont need a third, we also DONT want a third like that.
give them another playstyle, give them back the hit and run style with the aid of shadowstepping...
so, it looks like the problem is that:
they've given the warrior TOO MUCH, all in one => armor, spike potential, ability to fake spikes, mobility. pretty much everything every other melee has and better.
solution?
nerf warriors?
but there will obviously be too many warrior players who will defend this, as they want to keep their warrior staying superior.
moriz
they don't have the mobility of a sin, but it doesn't matter. i've covered why with my prior post.
HawkofStorms
You want to make HB's even more broken? Not that anybody actually cares about that, but it is a concern.
Sins have their place, which is as a ganking class to be used in low end PvP where you won't have counters or competent monks (RA, FA, JQ, etc). In those places, the sin shines, even being able to kill characters that can shut them down like air eles if they time their spike right.
Put in higher end PvP, you need sustained pressure damage + spikes to be able to wear down the healers. The only use to extend the range of shadowcasting would be for flag running (which was the reason it was first nerfed anyways).
Sins 1>2>3 chaining just isn't good in PvP where there can be quick prots and shutdown. Shadowstepping, while gimmicky, is not the sins real problem. The only thing that could save the sins now is to give them OP elites like MoI, but somehow make it so that only a sin can use it instead of a Me/A caster.
Sins have their place, which is as a ganking class to be used in low end PvP where you won't have counters or competent monks (RA, FA, JQ, etc). In those places, the sin shines, even being able to kill characters that can shut them down like air eles if they time their spike right.
Put in higher end PvP, you need sustained pressure damage + spikes to be able to wear down the healers. The only use to extend the range of shadowcasting would be for flag running (which was the reason it was first nerfed anyways).
Sins 1>2>3 chaining just isn't good in PvP where there can be quick prots and shutdown. Shadowstepping, while gimmicky, is not the sins real problem. The only thing that could save the sins now is to give them OP elites like MoI, but somehow make it so that only a sin can use it instead of a Me/A caster.
wtfisgoingon
so, it looks like nobody has been 100% sure where the problem lies
some are against sins because of their shdaowsteps requiring minimal positioning skills and gimmicky (this i believe is the most ridiculous/unsuccessful argument against sins)
some are against their 123 chain combo being inferior (this, i will have to semi agree....)
why dont we get Anet's word on what exactly is the problem is....
some are against sins because of their shdaowsteps requiring minimal positioning skills and gimmicky (this i believe is the most ridiculous/unsuccessful argument against sins)
some are against their 123 chain combo being inferior (this, i will have to semi agree....)
why dont we get Anet's word on what exactly is the problem is....
moriz
well then, show us where they actually require skill, other than the bare minimums of battlefield awareness, positioning, and target selection (as well as a little bit of timing, but that goes into battlefield awareness).
outside of those three things, assassin play generally involves pressing skills in exact order, which is not particularly taxing. and yes, your counter to this would be "every other profession is just pressing skills in order", and at that point, you'll lose your argument because you've just pwned yourself. so please save us the effort and not make that argument.
outside of those three things, assassin play generally involves pressing skills in exact order, which is not particularly taxing. and yes, your counter to this would be "every other profession is just pressing skills in order", and at that point, you'll lose your argument because you've just pwned yourself. so please save us the effort and not make that argument.
FoxBat
SpiritThief
B/c they would have to put fourth effort to make the Dervish, Paragon and Ritualist more useful too then.
Rhamia Darigaz
Keekles
Actually, moriz knows what he's talking about. You've done nothing to address moriz' arguments, other than using straw-man and red herring fallacies.
Try again.
Try again.
paddymew
Lore reason for introducing sins: Guild Wars needed ninjas. 'Nuff said.
Gameplay reason for introducing sins: Guild Wars needed a more offensive-minded, but also more fragile, melee class for burst damage. If every melee class is a tank, every melee will die to casters.
Regarding use of shadowstepping: If ANet made shadowstepping exclusive to sins (in PvP), it would ruin the game. For example, besides being used offensively, monks in PvP these days are either /W for /A. Nobody would spec /A unless they needed dash if shadowstepping was made sin-only.
Regarding OP: It seems to me like the only thing you know about arguing is to fail while trying to badmouth people who prove that you are wrong. If any troll posts were made, they were indeed yours, and not the logical arguments other people posted.
EDIT: About posting guild information etc. on one's profile page: It's perfectly natural. Nobody wants to be e-stalked (at least not on Guru...). Just because you don't like to show the world who you are in-game, or IRL for that matter, doesn't mean that everybody else is a loser with no life...
Gameplay reason for introducing sins: Guild Wars needed a more offensive-minded, but also more fragile, melee class for burst damage. If every melee class is a tank, every melee will die to casters.
Regarding use of shadowstepping: If ANet made shadowstepping exclusive to sins (in PvP), it would ruin the game. For example, besides being used offensively, monks in PvP these days are either /W for /A. Nobody would spec /A unless they needed dash if shadowstepping was made sin-only.
Regarding OP: It seems to me like the only thing you know about arguing is to fail while trying to badmouth people who prove that you are wrong. If any troll posts were made, they were indeed yours, and not the logical arguments other people posted.
EDIT: About posting guild information etc. on one's profile page: It's perfectly natural. Nobody wants to be e-stalked (at least not on Guru...). Just because you don't like to show the world who you are in-game, or IRL for that matter, doesn't mean that everybody else is a loser with no life...
xDusT II
Celeborn10
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon
you are trying to troll on my thread trying to make discussions outside of the topic.
im not going to go into a discussion with you about skills and all that bullcrap.
that is not relevant.
congrats for absolutely nothing you've contributed to the thread except making yourself look like a troll. Oh no! The horror! Assassin's have to do without their hilariously broken mechanic and focus on actual positioning and standard melee rules. Is there anything bad if Anet were to make Assassins into a more robust, intelligent-to-play class?
If Anet were to bring the Assassin's interrupting and disabling ability more on par with Ranger's that could be a step in the right direction. But unfortunately there's very little for improvement that wouldn't bring about any more unbalanced gameplay. Oh and Guildwars is supposed to be all about player skill and intelligent and optimal use of a skill bar.
A Shockaxe is only as good as the player using it. Conversely there's a disproportionately low skill needed to play an Assassin effectively. A better player on Shockaxe can have more of an impact than if they played a typical PvX Assassin build to perfection. I really don't see any reason why the more skillful playstyle shouldn't merit better results. (unless you want to show off FoW armor on your Assassin?)
Shadowsteps in their current form aren't completely useless. If ganking was still as essential as it used to be AoD would still be king. Death's Charge would still disregard height obstructions. It wasn't completely the fault of the necessary nerfs that Assassins fell from favor. Alot of it was decided by the meta-game.
Lux Aeterna
With aftercasts, shadowsteps are good but not overpowered.
What exactly are you complaining about ?
Personally I like [death's charge], but the 3/4s aftercast combined with 30sec recharge make it if anything a bit weak.
Shadowsteps are not broken, they add depth and interest because teleports = cool and instant movement = strong. In their current form they're actually underpowered.
Are you saying that GvG needs squishie 1234 frontliners?
What exactly are you complaining about ?
Personally I like [death's charge], but the 3/4s aftercast combined with 30sec recharge make it if anything a bit weak.
Shadowsteps are not broken, they add depth and interest because teleports = cool and instant movement = strong. In their current form they're actually underpowered.
Are you saying that GvG needs squishie 1234 frontliners?
Capulatio
I completely disagree here, the shadow step is what makes the assassin an assassin.
The question is, to all of you that are complaining, do you want a warrior or an assassin?
The question is, to all of you that are complaining, do you want a warrior or an assassin?
Forgotton200
How is assassin in AB?
dasmitchies
The nerf to shadowsteps was done to prevent warriors and dervishes from using shadowstep spikes with high damage weapons. (hammers, scythes) Daggers are worthless without the use of a skill chain however, as long as Sins can use an axe, hammer or scythe builds shadowstepping MUST be nerfed for pvp at any level. A crit-scythe spiker would instantly dominate melee presence in any pvp thereafter. The best that can be hoped for is to undo the nerf for pve but then what is the point there? Nobody would ever use a skill slot in PVE for a step.
drunknzelda
Uh.. it's not like you never see any Sins in high-end GvG. Ever heard of Wastrels Collapse + MB Split? Imo they gave sins a really good shadowstep when they buffed WC since it has no aftercast and it does KD which makes for an easy chain start. Also, cookiespike uses an A/P instead of the regular W/A. Assa's are here for different reasons, and they should never be able to do pressure like a warrior can, since that is just stupid (i.e. Palm Strike, not the same pressure but still, they tried to give sins pressure). Oh, and most balanced HA builds have PS sins too so.. never see Sins in high-end PvP? I do sir.
newbie_of_doom
Quote:
Originally Posted by xXDragonorFuryXx
i just ordered factions so i wouldnt know but assassins arent aloud in guild versus guild?
that sucks I lol'd.
And to be honest, shadowsteps are still pretty useful if you are splitting because they increase mobillity and speed.
They simply cannot be used for spiking anymore, which is a good thing.
that sucks I lol'd.
And to be honest, shadowsteps are still pretty useful if you are splitting because they increase mobillity and speed.
They simply cannot be used for spiking anymore, which is a good thing.
moriz
WC does have aftercast, but is it completely irrelevant because the target would be KD'd and can't run away anyways.
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Shasgaliel
Another discussion which turned into flame wars for no reason..... I wonder why people start discussion when they cannot deal with the possibility that someone can disagree with them. I do not get the idea of personal attacks - it does not bring any power but to the contrary it indicates that there is no more arguments left.
Anyway back on topic. I am not a pvp player but I think I can add something from external perspective. I tried pvp on various chars and sucked. But the point is when I used the sin with shadowstep I did not need to worry about positioning etc. I did not have to look around. Just go for called target and use combo.... you can say it is more than that but my answer would be no. It almost always worked so I did not have to bother, I often did not look who is around. My point is that using sins or actually whatever with shadowsteps reduces the ability to learn pvp. People do not learn situation awareness they do not look around, they do not try to anticipate anything. When playing warrior I really needed to put an effort to it. I learned a lot. But with shadowstepping sin - nothing. I guess that might the argument - that it allowed too many people play easy way in high end pvp where their place should be RA. I am not saying it to all the sins but to the ones like me who are mainly pve ones.
Anyway back on topic. I am not a pvp player but I think I can add something from external perspective. I tried pvp on various chars and sucked. But the point is when I used the sin with shadowstep I did not need to worry about positioning etc. I did not have to look around. Just go for called target and use combo.... you can say it is more than that but my answer would be no. It almost always worked so I did not have to bother, I often did not look who is around. My point is that using sins or actually whatever with shadowsteps reduces the ability to learn pvp. People do not learn situation awareness they do not look around, they do not try to anticipate anything. When playing warrior I really needed to put an effort to it. I learned a lot. But with shadowstepping sin - nothing. I guess that might the argument - that it allowed too many people play easy way in high end pvp where their place should be RA. I am not saying it to all the sins but to the ones like me who are mainly pve ones.
KrisNaga
The only thing anet are doing by nerfing builds and removing skills is alienating the players and when you have guild wars 2 coming out then it's a stupid move to play.
I don't see why they can't just leave the damn skills alone, there's no need to constantly alter them all the time, it's a pain in the ass and by nerfing good farming and pvp builds then I think there's a good chance that people who would of bought GW2 will buy something else instead so they don't have to put up with constant nerfing.
I don't see why they can't just leave the damn skills alone, there's no need to constantly alter them all the time, it's a pain in the ass and by nerfing good farming and pvp builds then I think there's a good chance that people who would of bought GW2 will buy something else instead so they don't have to put up with constant nerfing.
zwei2stein
All shaddowsteps need to ever have hope of buff is susceptibility to widespread, easy to bring, counter.
Shaddowstep skill need to fail if user is snared.
Shaddowstep skill need to fail if user is snared.
kedde
Offensive shadowsteps are retarded because they ignore positioning.
Defensive ones are better designed and at least provide fun for the user.
They're a bad concept mechanic wise and should not be in the game for balance reasons.
Defensive ones are better designed and at least provide fun for the user.
They're a bad concept mechanic wise and should not be in the game for balance reasons.