I don't know about the whole shadow stepping thing, but in my view, Assassin's just aren't built for long combat time. I believe they truly shine in places like RA where they can spike and win.
IMO
Assassins:
have insanly strong spikes however they cannot keep pressure on usually
Warrior: Great spikes and can keep pressure damage on since their weapons arent low damage.
Assassins rely on getting in and getting out, monks cant keep healing 70 al melee AND 60 AL casters on their team
Warriors have 100-80 armor depending on source, they are a bit more sturdy and harder to spike.
Assassins as soon as one of their skills are D shotted or blocked, they are useless for a couple seconds (depending on situation)
Warriors still have good pressure damage from weapons even though their spikes will be reduced a bit.
I just don't think assassins were built for long combat times.
Assassins, Shadowstep & Balance
ajc2123
Tenebrae
The assassin has been nerfed in so many ways that Anet would have to do lots of work just to give primary A some new combos. Simple Shadowstep skills have been abused and instead of linking part of the effect ( or negate ) to Critical Strikes they broke it ( like happened with Shadow of Haste ).
Now pvp is diff from pve in skills balance terms but they wont undo the nerfs to A skills ( not shadowsteps only ) and sins will remain like they are now . They should be the best DD and run char but when secondary A ABUSE one of the best source of power ( and yes , this is the ONLY reason of the nerf "bla bla was broken bla" ) all thouse "overpowered" skills got pwnd. I dont think anet will change anything ( hope them prove me wrong ) , soz , shadowsteps skills ( or skills that involve one ) wont change :/
PD: Still lol at ppl who say "1-2-3-4 skins" .... seriously , if you order your sin skill bar to have your combo like "5-1-2-6-7-3" , please delete your sin char.
Now pvp is diff from pve in skills balance terms but they wont undo the nerfs to A skills ( not shadowsteps only ) and sins will remain like they are now . They should be the best DD and run char but when secondary A ABUSE one of the best source of power ( and yes , this is the ONLY reason of the nerf "bla bla was broken bla" ) all thouse "overpowered" skills got pwnd. I dont think anet will change anything ( hope them prove me wrong ) , soz , shadowsteps skills ( or skills that involve one ) wont change :/
PD: Still lol at ppl who say "1-2-3-4 skins" .... seriously , if you order your sin skill bar to have your combo like "5-1-2-6-7-3" , please delete your sin char.
Revelations
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon
Sorry, but I got carried away. tl;dr: Wars take more skill than sins.Dervs are another badly designed class which require relatively little skill to be effective, so for all intents and purposes I'm going to ignore them in this post. Warriors however, in addition to requiring basic frontline skills like positioning, battlefield awareness, and knowledge on pushing/pulling have another skill set entirely which is largely useless in playing assassin.
First off; assassins are built to spike. This is seen by the retarded gimmicky attack chain concept they use, which forces them to load up on a bar of attack skills and doesn't allow them to change targets with any semblance of ease. The insane +damage of dagger attacks and their low base weapon damage means that they do a laughable amount of damage when not using attack skills. A pressure style of play is therefore pretty much out of the question for a dagger sin.
Good warriors on the other hand need to know how to both pressure and spike. There are times when either may not push kills, so you need to know how to use a combination of both. Pressure play requires careful observation - you need to watch for enemy prots, capitalize on players with bad positioning, and swap weapons frequently depending on targets in order to maximize damage. You also need to be able to predict opposing players actions somewhat, in order to land more successful bull's strikes/dchops/whatever. You need to know when it is appropriate to use your IAS, which usually incurs double damage, when to cancel it, and how to manage your energy that you'll be able to afford to frenzy after landing bull's etc.
Assassins require none of what I mentioned above. Watching for prots is nearly irrelevant if you have already started your attack chain - you have two options; cancel your chain and wait for recharges while doing minimal damage, or power on through the prot while doing minimal damage. Both reduce the effectiveness of the assassin, and therefore both are pretty 'bad' choices compared to a third, which is not viable to a sin - swapping target. Recognizing which target to swap to takes experience and awareness, which would otherwise be inconsequential on an assassin. Capitalizing on players with bad positioning is also more difficult for a sin, as your chain will often be on recharge during the times this occurs, allowing the opposing player time to correct his mistake. Therefore recognizing these opportunities is often not as important. Weapon swaps are not as crucial on an assassin, as you will not be changing targets as frequently, and there are not many viable assassin skills which require the thought and/or prediction which goes into a bull's strike delivered by a decent warrior.
Using your IAS and stance dancing doesn't take as much thought on an assassin for multiple reasons. Firstly it doesn't matter if you use it at a bad time because it usually incurs no penalty other than recharge. You don't have to worry about whether your monks are taking pressure, or if your cancel is good to go. You don't need to worry about exploding if you take risks with it, therefore you don't need the good judgment that comes with deciding if those risks are worth it (eg. just blown your cancel, but could push a kill if you frenzied on a target - is it worth it? Very situation dependant.). Secondly sin IAS's are usually only used on spikes, so it's often integrated as part of a 12345 chain anyway - taking yet more thought out of playing sin. Finally, energy management is a complete nonissue on assassins, for pretty obvious reasons.
Despite being rather clueless as to how a warrior requires more skill I actually agree that assassins should have better mobility and movement control than a warrior. I do not think that a viable way of achieving this is by limiting shadowsteps however.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by kedde
Offensive shadowsteps are retarded because they ignore positioning.
Defensive ones are better designed and at least provide fun for the user. This. Defensive shadowsteps create some pretty interesting tactics and counters in lower arenas. Returning up onto cliffs or other terrain obstacles and forcing target changes/long runs is always amusing. Similarly learning to avoid when a monk is baiting you into such situations is also a good thing. Faking out returns from enemy monks while avoiding cripple is another little mindgame in itself.
Bobby2
Target swapping, faking out spikes is indeed a tall order for most sins. Palm Strike remedies this somewhat but one can't run it without being laughed at.
Originally Posted by Revelations
 The mechanic of teleportation might be broken but imo a necessary evil; Sins can't pressure like Wars can and need another way to exert threat without overly exposing themselves. Most offensive Shadow Steps are all but useless due to aftercast; attack chains are so easily neutered even 3/4s is too long to wait. On that note, I'm an avid fan of Wastrel's Collapse. It's very powerful, yet requires a modicum of skill on the part of the Assassin player to use correctly. Best of all it's Sin-exclusive! That means no QQing and whining because other melees are abusing it (I still blame [bull's strike] and [wounding strike] for everything  )Quote: and there are not many viable assassin skills which require the thought and/or prediction which goes into a bull's strike delivered by a decent warrior.
Oh come on man [leaping mantis sting]
Revelations
Bobby2
(I've seen worse.)
Originally Posted by Revelations
Quote:
That was one of the semi-viable ones, though it's pretty obsolete when you throw Palm or Wastrel's in. But yes, it does actually require you to be not completely braindead to use. Pity the 5 attack skills ??? that follow it don't have a similar requirement.
Meh. Many Sin builds (especially the ones with multiple KDs) can be pretty flexible in their execution.
PS: it's been a looong time since I ran a build with 6 attack skills - wth were you thinking of
wtfisgoingon
@the people saying sin shadowstep makes them ignore positioning. this is like the most absurb/not-viable argument, HOW DOES IT ignore positioning, when positioning ISNT 100% STABLE, you dont STAND IN ONE SPOT THE ENTIRE ROUND OF THE MATCH!! I cant seem to get this through the people who keeps saying shadowsteps ruin positioning, when positioning does not even stay stable throughout the GvG battle.
Originally Posted by Revelations
and if your argument for shadowsteps being overpowered without aftercast because of monks having no ability to pre-prot. then, my counter argument is this, if a warrior attacks someone, and decides to fake spike the victim, he switches over to the next guy next to him and spikes him instead, by (flail, devasting, crushing, heavy blow, bullstrike.) and ends up kill the victim. that is basically the same thing as a sin shadowstepping and spiking his victim (only difference is that he is able to travel instantly, this is balanced off by their 70al and 12345 combo chain [which is inferior, because one miss and his spike is gone, where else the warrior will still be able to keep going]) their attack rates are almost the same rate, so you cannot say it is instagib. so the point is, the ''so-called pre protting issue'' is NOT an issue. warriors can do it, why complain when the sin can do it also? i've posted all the arguments supporting sin shadowsteps and arguements against anti-shadowsteps on the first page, but you people just arent reading it and keep replying to me with the same thing saying im not replying back with adaquete arguments Quote:
Sorry, but I got carried away. tl;dr: Wars take more skill than sins.Dervs are another badly designed class which require relatively little skill to be effective, so for all intents and purposes I'm going to ignore them in this post. Warriors however, in addition to requiring basic frontline skills like positioning, battlefield awareness, and knowledge on pushing/pulling have another skill set entirely which is largely useless in playing assassin. |
what is this you claim?
war require basic frontline skills,
the sin can already do...
and positioning, battle field awareness,
the sin also has to do that....
knowing when to kite
the only time when positioning is absent for the sin is when he executes his spike (IF YOU ARE SHADOWSTEPPING) <= you cannot complain about it because its part of their play style and skill, it is balanced off with their 70al, two handed weapon, inferior pressure capabilties, and 12345 combo chains.
yes sins can observe battles too... not just wars...
knowledge on pushing pulling and weapon swapping,
the sin can do all that......
Quote: First off; assassins are built to spike. This is seen by the retarded gimmicky attack chain concept they use, which forces them to load up on a bar of attack skills and doesn't allow them to change targets with any semblance of ease. The insane +damage of dagger attacks and their low base weapon damage means that they do a laughable amount of damage when not using attack skills. A pressure style of play is therefore pretty much out of the question for a dagger sin. They are built to spike yes, as in intended by Anet, but Anet removed all potential elements FOR spiking for the sin in GvG.
But you cant say its gimmicky because all other professions do the same, you cannot argue that a warrior predicting bullstrike = requiring skill
if you say that,
then i can just say the sin requires skill because they need to know when to spike and when to kite, they can execute golden pheonix on the monk, then attempt to attack the mesmer without executing any skills and going back to the monk to execute the dual attack.
so you cannot say they require any skill to play, IT IS their play style...
Quote: Good warriors on the other hand need to know how to both pressure and spike. There are times when either may not push kills, so you need to know how to use a combination of both. Pressure play requires careful observation - you need to watch for enemy prots, capitalize on players with bad positioning, and swap weapons frequently depending on targets in order to maximize damage. You also need to be able to predict opposing players actions somewhat, in order to land more successful bull's strikes/dchops/whatever. You need to know when it is appropriate to use your IAS, which usually incurs double damage, when to cancel it, and how to manage your energy that you'll be able to afford to frenzy after landing bull's etc. ...
sins dont need to watch for enemy prots?
sins spiking doesnt require careful observation?
sins dont need to switch between weaps to maximize efficiency?
sins cannot pressure because their base damage is low, which is why i've said sins has a unique different play style and should not be compared and attempted to convert them into another typical GvG warrior playing style.
they need hit and run, or disrupting, but anet hasnt given ANY of those opportunities to sins.
and again, the frenzy cancel is just a matter of reflexes, i dont call that skill.
overall BAD argument...
too bias, its quite obvious you are favoring warriors and stating all their advantages and abilities WHICH THE SIN ALREADY HAS AND ABLE TO DO.
it isnt the sins fault anet wrongfully gave wars a all in one package,
1.having the ability to fake spike
2.superior mobility in the long run
3.higher armor
4.higher base damage
5.equal amount of pressure compared to sin, if not even better IN THE LONG RUN
the problem is clearly visible.
yet anet doesnt do anything to limit warriors?
nerf warrior mobility?
give the advantage to sins, AS INTENDED and as SHOULD be
Quote: Assassins require none of what I mentioned above. Watching for prots is nearly irrelevant if you have already started your attack chain - you have two options; cancel your chain and wait for recharges while doing minimal damage, or power on through the prot while doing minimal damage. Both reduce the effectiveness of the assassin, and therefore both are pretty 'bad' choices compared to a third, which is not viable to a sin - swapping target. Recognizing which target to swap to takes experience and awareness, which would otherwise be inconsequential on an assassin. Capitalizing on players with bad positioning is also more difficult for a sin, as your chain will often be on recharge during the times this occurs, allowing the opposing player time to correct his mistake. Therefore recognizing these opportunities is often not as important. Weapon swaps are not as crucial on an assassin, as you will not be changing targets as frequently, and there are not many viable assassin skills which require the thought and/or prediction which goes into a bull's strike delivered by a decent warrior. can be applied to war also...
war has to watch for pre-prot
if he has already started combo, thats a different story, as anet has given them the -allinonepackagemelee- which is a flaw, and dont understand how anet and other players dont see it
again, swapping target is no problem for a sin. i dont see a viable argument here.
swapping weapons is no problem either for a sin, if you are able to detect a monk has a +10vs slashing, simply just swap to piercing, no problem here... still dont see your point.
the time the sin is on time out recharging skills, he should be observing the match, which is the same as the war standing idle and pressuring with auto attacking and observing at the same time building adreline (when war endurance gets nerfed)
same concept here, both classes share different playing style, in the end both are still mimicking the same concept.
i still see no viable argument
Quote: Using your IAS and stance dancing doesn't take as much thought on an assassin for multiple reasons. Firstly it doesn't matter if you use it at a bad time because it usually incurs no penalty other than recharge. You don't have to worry about whether your monks are taking pressure, or if your cancel is good to go. You don't need to worry about exploding if you take risks with it, therefore you don't need the good judgment that comes with deciding if those risks are worth it (eg. just blown your cancel, but could push a kill if you frenzied on a target - is it worth it? Very situation dependant.). Secondly sin IAS's are usually only used on spikes, so it's often integrated as part of a 12345 chain anyway - taking yet more thought out of playing sin. Finally, energy management is a complete nonissue on assassins, for pretty obvious reasons. i cant believe you actually had to include the ias argument...
i dont find the frenzy/rush cancel thing a skill, it simply becomes a repetitive routine that i can hardly say its skill.
but if you must,
think of it this way.
you want to count the war frenzy/rush thing a skill for the wars.
then, a sin knowing when to use his ias is also crucial because of his effect on recharging of the attack skills.
also the recharge of the ias, depending on what ias you are talking about,
frenzy? flurry? way of the asn?
they all have their consequences,
if you say frenzy, they have to do the stance/frenzy cancel also which you CLAIM to be skill. so there you go, skill right there.
if you say flurry, you have to think about it this way, his ias usage is linked to his recharge of his attack skills
and for way of the asn, i dont think that is even viable build in GvG.
so, no comment here, you could think of it as flurry if you must
and not like the sins EVEN have a reliable IAS to work with, heh
Quote: Despite being rather clueless as to how a warrior requires more skill I actually agree that assassins should have better mobility and movement control than a warrior. I do not think that a viable way of achieving this is by limiting shadowsteps however. this is the only thing i agree with you with.
how is an over sized large warrior possibly able to outrun a swift and cunning sin? you tell me. and this game is suppose to be more realistic than most MMO's.
the swiftness is in the name of the profession ASN-ASSASSIN, you dont even need to get into further depth in the game to tell that its a swifty/cunning looking profession........
Quote: This. Defensive shadowsteps create some pretty interesting tactics and counters in lower arenas. Returning up onto cliffs or other terrain obstacles and forcing target changes/long runs is always amusing. Similarly learning to avoid when a monk is baiting you into such situations is also a good thing. Faking out returns from enemy monks while avoiding cripple is another little mindgame in itself. Yes, AoD has been my favorite and most used elite SINCE release of factions in ALL PvP regions.
Quote:
I can sure as hell say that it takes more skill to land a bulls strike than it does to land anything aside from a few leads on a sin chain. Compare it to landing Palm Strike if you will. Secondly, every single non-backline character in guildwars requires the knowledge of how to spike, and everyone requires kiting knowledge. I hardly see how this supports your point that assassin takes as much skill to run as a warrior.
Quote:
sins dont need to watch for enemy prots?sins spiking doesnt require careful observation?
sins dont need to switch between weaps to maximize efficiency?
sins cannot pressure because their base damage is low, which is why i've said sins has a unique different play style and should not be compared and attempted to convert them into another typical GvG warrior playing style.
they need hit and run, or disrupting, but anet hasnt given ANY of those opportunities to sins.
and again, the frenzy cancel is just a matter of reflexes, i dont call that skill. I outlined this in my original post very clearly. Sins do need to watch for prots, but only before their spike. Obviously it would be stupid to unleash your chain on someone who's just been preprotted, but if a prot lands in the middle of your chain you really have no choice but to mash through it and hope for a kill, or to force monks to blow more energy. Sins also don't pressure or require adrenaline, so it doesn't matter shit if the target you're autoattacking gets protted - even if it wasn't they would be taking insignificant damage. Therefore you don't need to be on constant watch for prots, only before you use your chain. On a warrior you need to be watching constantly - the entire match. A lot of warriors damage comes from autoattacks, so you often need to switch targets if the one you're autoattacking gets a prot. It definitely takes far more ability to watch the field for the entire match than it does to do so for short bursts.
Frenzy canceling is often a matter of reflexes also, but not necessarily every time. There is an inherent risk in using frenzy, especially using an adrenaline based cancel. If you frenzy and blow an attack skill and it's blocked, then your cancel isn't fully charged. Therefore there is a substantial amount of thought involved in frenzying in the first place. You need to balance the risk against the potential reward for using your IAS. On an assassin this is not the case. Your IAS incurs no real penalty, therefore blowing it is not a matter of thought, it is a matter of just using it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon
if he uses frenzy, he would be in the same situation as the war, and you said frenzy/canceling = skill. so i mean there you go.
did you even read what i wrote about sin ias on my previous post?
i feel like im replying to someone who isnt even reading what i wrote, ive already replied to you about this on my previous post.
Quote:
Swapping target is no problem for a sin? I see no reason to elaborate on how wrong you are there. Only exception being perhaps palm.
swapping target on a sin in pressuring is EVEN harder to master as a sin than a warr, you CLEARLY have no pvp exp with a sin whatsoever.
swapping target is no problem for a sin. i dont see a viable argument here.
swapping weapons is no problem either for a sin, if you are able to detect a monk has a +10vs slashing, simply just swap to piercing, no problem here... still dont see your point. Swapping target is no problem for a sin? I see no reason to elaborate on how wrong you are there. Only exception being perhaps palm.
I'm also very aware that swapping weapons is no problem for a sin, I quite specifically said that it was just not as important as on a warrior, simply because you aren't changing targets as often. If your team is taking pressure you might have to lineback for a minute - you mash on a war in an elemental set, then you might see an enemy midline out of position, so you mash on him in a vamp set. The sin does negligible autoattack damage and has difficulty swapping targets, so he'll often (not always) be forced to choose which one to unleash his chain on. Meaning that two weapon swaps have been reduced to one - making them not as important on the sin.
isnt spiking = not intended to kill
not intended to kill = no point in watching for pre-prot
war only watches for pre-pro if he is going to unleash his spike,
same thing concept applies to sin.
you still failed to understand.
you obviously arent giving any thoughts to what i just replied to you about, please re-read my previous counter to this.
Quote:
Frenzy canceling is often a matter of reflexes also, but not necessarily every time. There is an inherent risk in using frenzy, especially using an adrenaline based cancel. If you frenzy and blow an attack skill and it's blocked, then your cancel isn't fully charged. Therefore there is a substantial amount of thought involved in frenzying in the first place. You need to balance the risk against the potential reward for using your IAS. On an assassin this is not the case. Your IAS incurs no real penalty, therefore blowing it is not a matter of thought, it is a matter of just using it.
do sins even have an ias to work with?swapping weapons is no problem either for a sin, if you are able to detect a monk has a +10vs slashing, simply just swap to piercing, no problem here... still dont see your point. Swapping target is no problem for a sin? I see no reason to elaborate on how wrong you are there. Only exception being perhaps palm.
I'm also very aware that swapping weapons is no problem for a sin, I quite specifically said that it was just not as important as on a warrior, simply because you aren't changing targets as often. If your team is taking pressure you might have to lineback for a minute - you mash on a war in an elemental set, then you might see an enemy midline out of position, so you mash on him in a vamp set. The sin does negligible autoattack damage and has difficulty swapping targets, so he'll often (not always) be forced to choose which one to unleash his chain on. Meaning that two weapon swaps have been reduced to one - making them not as important on the sin.
Quote:
war auto attack = isnt spiking|
Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon
the time the sin is on time out recharging skills, he should be observing the match, which is the same as the war standing idle and pressuring with auto attacking and observing at the same time building adreline (when war endurance gets nerfed)
Wrong. During the time the sins chain is down he doesn't do any damage. Therefore he doesn't need to be watching for prots as much, or swapping weapons, because no matter which set he is in he'll be doing no damage anyway. Assuming a warrior has just blown something like evis, he sure as hell needs to watch for prots, because he still does damage if not mashing through them. He also doesn't gain adren to rebuild for evis by mashing through guardian. In addition since he is still swapping targets often during this time he needs to be on top of weapon swaps. This is not the case for the sin due to their bad attack chain mechanics. Therefore the sin does not require as much thought to use. Quote:
i sure as hell cannot say it requires more skill, randomly guessing when a person is going to move is not skill, its called guessing, ANYBODY is able to do this without skill. in fact, i believe a NOOBIE war with bulls is able to actually pull of more kds then a exp war, because the noobie war is UNPREDICTABLY executing bulls.
Quote: |
isnt spiking = not intended to kill
not intended to kill = no point in watching for pre-prot
war only watches for pre-pro if he is going to unleash his spike,
same thing concept applies to sin.
you still failed to understand.
you obviously arent giving any thoughts to what i just replied to you about, please re-read my previous counter to this.
Quote:
if he uses frenzy, he would be in the same situation as the war, and you said frenzy/canceling = skill. so i mean there you go.
did you even read what i wrote about sin ias on my previous post?
i feel like im replying to someone who isnt even reading what i wrote, ive already replied to you about this on my previous post.
Quote:
again, ive replied to all your arguments, but you arent reading my arguments
so ill keep this brief
sins can execute any lead/offhand attacks on a monk A
then execute his lead/offhand on monk B
this is called FAKE SPIKE.
he goes returns to unleash his next attack following from either his lead or offhand attack to monk A
this requires a sin to remember who he attacked before, and also TIMING his remaining time limit to unleash his next offhand/lead attack/dual attack on monk A.
Quote: I'm also very aware that swapping weapons is no problem for a sin, I quite specifically said that it was just not as important as on a warrior, simply because you aren't changing targets as often. If your team is taking pressure you might have to lineback for a minute - you mash on a war in an elemental set, then you might see an enemy midline out of position, so you mash on him in a vamp set. The sin does negligible autoattack damage and has difficulty swapping targets, so he'll often (not always) be forced to choose which one to unleash his chain on. Meaning that two weapon swaps have been reduced to one - making them not as important on the sin.
Quote:
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Wrong. During the time the sins chain is down he doesn't do any damage. Therefore he doesn't need to be watching for prots as much, or swapping weapons, because no matter which set he is in he'll be doing no damage anyway. Assuming a warrior has just blown something like evis, he sure as hell needs to watch for prots, because he still does damage if not mashing through them. He also doesn't gain adren to rebuild for evis by mashing through guardian. In addition since he is still swapping targets often during this time he needs to be on top of weapon swaps. This is not the case for the sin due to their bad attack chain mechanics. Therefore the sin does not require as much thought to use.
he CAN auto attack like the war can, for energy if you must compared to adren gain... war doesnt do dmg either when he is auto attacking again fail argument. Quote:
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