I have 3 useful pve Paragon builds. I want to do more and not have to take a completely useless build. Wonder what would happen if the spear was changed to melee instead of a range weapon.
Question: I feel Guild Wars 1 was never balanced or came any where near balanced. I see no indication that A.Net learn from past mistakes on the balance issue (and apparently has the same person that did the balancing for GW1 doing the balancing in GW2). To those that are saying they will do better in GW2 do you feel that they will wave a magic wand and become the guru's of balance? To quote John McCain, "Oh, please!"
Want to prove you can balance a game, do it in Guild Wars 1, even if it calls for major changes that will have the community crying for lost builds, they have done it before. I don't believe anything is ever too far gone, just people are un-willing to make the effort.
ANET forgot they made paragons
R.Shayne
bhavv
Go go ellys, monks, necros and warriors.
Everything else sucks in PVE :P.
You really need to judge each class purely without any of the PVE only skills, without which Paragons, Sins and Mesmers arent as good as other classes.
Warrior > Paragons / Dervs and Sins.
Monk or Elly > Ritualist
And necros just wipe the floor with mesmers.
Since the skills have been seperated into PVE and PVP, there has been very little effort to even out the classes.
Paragons can now be fully reverted to the excellent motivation line they had on release for PVE only, bring back bigger heals, 15s recharge on [SONG OF RESTORATION], energy gain scaling on [Emergising Finale], 10e gain from [Aria of Zeal], revert [incoming] back to 10 seconds of 33% less damage (50% is broken yes), reduce [stand your ground] to 10e, 15r, power up some spear attacks, e.g make [holy spear] inflict its bonus damage if any enemy spirits are in range of the target, make some of the other attack skills hit multiple targets to give them more AoE damage.
There are so many easy PVE only tweaks that can be made to bring Paragons and other classes in line with the main classes, why exactly are Anet or anyone in the PVE community really using the excuse of balance in PVE when we already have broken PVE skills and consumables?
For ritualists, make spawning power increase the damage done by conjured spirits and creatures by 1 point per rank, and also boost the health gain they get. Maybe also increase the bonus weapon duration.
Go go super ritualist MMs and summoners, something that was meant to have been possible all along with Spawning power, but never really had and point to it.
Right now, ritualist summoners have too little benefit over a necro or even an elementalist with healing spirits, both of which heal far far better with Restoration skills than Ritualists can.
The class is also broken right there, that ellys and necros are more effective with their healing skills, as opposed to monks who will always be superior with their divine favor bonus.
Dervishes are actually fine in PVE, very solid, balanced and reliable class compared to the other 3 extra professions.
Everything else sucks in PVE :P.
You really need to judge each class purely without any of the PVE only skills, without which Paragons, Sins and Mesmers arent as good as other classes.
Warrior > Paragons / Dervs and Sins.
Monk or Elly > Ritualist
And necros just wipe the floor with mesmers.
Since the skills have been seperated into PVE and PVP, there has been very little effort to even out the classes.
Paragons can now be fully reverted to the excellent motivation line they had on release for PVE only, bring back bigger heals, 15s recharge on [SONG OF RESTORATION], energy gain scaling on [Emergising Finale], 10e gain from [Aria of Zeal], revert [incoming] back to 10 seconds of 33% less damage (50% is broken yes), reduce [stand your ground] to 10e, 15r, power up some spear attacks, e.g make [holy spear] inflict its bonus damage if any enemy spirits are in range of the target, make some of the other attack skills hit multiple targets to give them more AoE damage.
There are so many easy PVE only tweaks that can be made to bring Paragons and other classes in line with the main classes, why exactly are Anet or anyone in the PVE community really using the excuse of balance in PVE when we already have broken PVE skills and consumables?
For ritualists, make spawning power increase the damage done by conjured spirits and creatures by 1 point per rank, and also boost the health gain they get. Maybe also increase the bonus weapon duration.
Go go super ritualist MMs and summoners, something that was meant to have been possible all along with Spawning power, but never really had and point to it.
Right now, ritualist summoners have too little benefit over a necro or even an elementalist with healing spirits, both of which heal far far better with Restoration skills than Ritualists can.
The class is also broken right there, that ellys and necros are more effective with their healing skills, as opposed to monks who will always be superior with their divine favor bonus.
Dervishes are actually fine in PVE, very solid, balanced and reliable class compared to the other 3 extra professions.
bhavv
Another way to improve Spawning power is to improve its skills:
[Attuned Was Songkai] - increase duration to be equal to its recharge. Change functionality to:
Your ritualst spells and binding rituals cost up to 50% less energy and cast 50% faster. Resurect one nearby ally with full health and 0 energy when dropped.
[energetic was lee sa] - 5e, 1c, 20r, 30s duration.
You have +0...2 energy regeneration. When dropped, all allies in earshot gain 0...10 energy.
Wow, spawning will now make ritualists just a little more better at doing their own job then an [ether prism] elly or a soul reaping necro, how broken it is that ritualists would now be better at being ritualists then my Elly is lol.
Speaking from my experience with a PVE elly, monk and rit (also have mesmer and paragon), in terms of healing and party support:
Monk > Elly / Necro > Imbagon > Ritualist.
Yea, my Paragon, mesmer and Rit are all sat collecting dust while I only play my elly and monk, plus my new account with a warrior, which is surprisingly much more fun than I had expected a warrior to be.
[Attuned Was Songkai] - increase duration to be equal to its recharge. Change functionality to:
Your ritualst spells and binding rituals cost up to 50% less energy and cast 50% faster. Resurect one nearby ally with full health and 0 energy when dropped.
[energetic was lee sa] - 5e, 1c, 20r, 30s duration.
You have +0...2 energy regeneration. When dropped, all allies in earshot gain 0...10 energy.
Wow, spawning will now make ritualists just a little more better at doing their own job then an [ether prism] elly or a soul reaping necro, how broken it is that ritualists would now be better at being ritualists then my Elly is lol.
Speaking from my experience with a PVE elly, monk and rit (also have mesmer and paragon), in terms of healing and party support:
Monk > Elly / Necro > Imbagon > Ritualist.
Yea, my Paragon, mesmer and Rit are all sat collecting dust while I only play my elly and monk, plus my new account with a warrior, which is surprisingly much more fun than I had expected a warrior to be.
Improvavel
Yes, at PvP they are non-existent. And you can understand why.
But at PvE? C'mon.
Paras work better in numbers. One para doesn't have many options, since their shouts alone won't accomplish much, with the exception of save yourselves and tntf. But start to add more and more paragons and suddenly you have a damn team that hits hard, has high armor, has powerful healing, hex removal, condition removal, unblockable attacks, adrenaline gain engine, you name it. The only thing they can't do is AoE with spear (well [holy spear] and [splinter weapon (pve)] can, but...).
And the paragon heroes are amazing! Quite on par with the necro heroes. One of my wishes is to see Anet release a 3rd para hero!
That's the main problem with paragons in PvP too - a frigging mob of paragons throwing frigging powerful spears while covered by 2nd highest armor in the game and infinite resources. What can you do against that? Die!
But at PvE? C'mon.
Paras work better in numbers. One para doesn't have many options, since their shouts alone won't accomplish much, with the exception of save yourselves and tntf. But start to add more and more paragons and suddenly you have a damn team that hits hard, has high armor, has powerful healing, hex removal, condition removal, unblockable attacks, adrenaline gain engine, you name it. The only thing they can't do is AoE with spear (well [holy spear] and [splinter weapon (pve)] can, but...).
And the paragon heroes are amazing! Quite on par with the necro heroes. One of my wishes is to see Anet release a 3rd para hero!
That's the main problem with paragons in PvP too - a frigging mob of paragons throwing frigging powerful spears while covered by 2nd highest armor in the game and infinite resources. What can you do against that? Die!
Lishy
Yet, the condition removal of multiple Paragons is still inferior to a single PnH monk.
And the healing of multiple Paragons is vastly inferior to a single HB Monk.
The energy support is also inferior to that of a Necromancer.
Have fun with "multiple" paragons, when multiple paragons can be replaced by the role of a single player.
... I still stay it needs a reworking.
And the healing of multiple Paragons is vastly inferior to a single HB Monk.
The energy support is also inferior to that of a Necromancer.
Have fun with "multiple" paragons, when multiple paragons can be replaced by the role of a single player.
... I still stay it needs a reworking.
bhavv
But remove TNTF and SY, and paragons are deficient.
Multiple paragons (3+ in a group, like my paragon and heroes) is a brilliant setup.
However, do try removing the orders dervish and watch how badly the build fails.
Without the orders, you have solid defense, but hardly any damage, the orders dervish is what makes paraway broken, not the multiple paragons themselves.
And, unlike with ellys and necros, paragons alone cannot keep a party alive in HM with the absence of any monks or ritualists.
Multiple paragons (3+ in a group, like my paragon and heroes) is a brilliant setup.
However, do try removing the orders dervish and watch how badly the build fails.
Without the orders, you have solid defense, but hardly any damage, the orders dervish is what makes paraway broken, not the multiple paragons themselves.
And, unlike with ellys and necros, paragons alone cannot keep a party alive in HM with the absence of any monks or ritualists.
bhavv
I can garantee you that I can provide more healing and party support with my elly then you can with 3 paragons.
Go go perma ether renewal Infuse Health spammer, or even just heal other and jameis gaze spammer with infinate non depletable energy and epic self healing from every single spell cast.
Enchant removal you say? Not a problem, just change to Ether Prism E/Rt for that area instead, but then I will only be as good as 2 paragons instead of 3
.
Ellys and Necros steal all of your thunder for both party support and damage output, oh, so do smiter monks now with [smiter's boon] and RoJ.
Yet, as this thread is saying, everytime there is a skill update, guess which classes keep on recieving the benefits?
Elly. Monk. Necro. Warrior. Mesmer got a few, but not enough.
What about the poor paragons / ritualists / sins? Oh right, Anet have forgotten about making them any better.
If you want the best enjoyment possible from GW PVE, Elly, Necros and Monks are the way to go, warriors are also ok. All the other classes are boring and rather pants in comparison without any PVE only skills, and will likely end up just collecting dust. Need more skill balancing for PVE on the weaker classes, much much more.
Ignoring the ellys, monks, necros and warriors for every remaining skill update throughout the rest of this year and focusing on the remaining classes should do the trick.
Go go perma ether renewal Infuse Health spammer, or even just heal other and jameis gaze spammer with infinate non depletable energy and epic self healing from every single spell cast.
Enchant removal you say? Not a problem, just change to Ether Prism E/Rt for that area instead, but then I will only be as good as 2 paragons instead of 3
.Ellys and Necros steal all of your thunder for both party support and damage output, oh, so do smiter monks now with [smiter's boon] and RoJ.
Yet, as this thread is saying, everytime there is a skill update, guess which classes keep on recieving the benefits?
Elly. Monk. Necro. Warrior. Mesmer got a few, but not enough.
What about the poor paragons / ritualists / sins? Oh right, Anet have forgotten about making them any better.
If you want the best enjoyment possible from GW PVE, Elly, Necros and Monks are the way to go, warriors are also ok. All the other classes are boring and rather pants in comparison without any PVE only skills, and will likely end up just collecting dust. Need more skill balancing for PVE on the weaker classes, much much more.
Ignoring the ellys, monks, necros and warriors for every remaining skill update throughout the rest of this year and focusing on the remaining classes should do the trick.
Sifow Chan
The problem is the devs suck at skill balancing. They nerf a skill when all other profs are abusing the paragons skills and don't even consider what it will do to the actual profession it comes from. Same goes for rits. Splinter weapon was abused by other profs such as rangers. The 4 non core classes didn't suck until the core profession abused their skills causing the devs to nerf skills without thinking.
I main a Paragon and I've achieved so much on it. Obsidian armor, elite weapons, chaos gloves, high rank in max titles track, the list goes on. The fact is I love Paragons even if they suck. However I think it sucks that the devs can't give them same love to them, and even the other 3 added professions, as the core professions. If you're going to add new professions, you should be responsible for everything it comes with, otherwise don't add anymore. Just think if they added new professions for Utopia. What a big mess that would be.
I main a Paragon and I've achieved so much on it. Obsidian armor, elite weapons, chaos gloves, high rank in max titles track, the list goes on. The fact is I love Paragons even if they suck. However I think it sucks that the devs can't give them same love to them, and even the other 3 added professions, as the core professions. If you're going to add new professions, you should be responsible for everything it comes with, otherwise don't add anymore. Just think if they added new professions for Utopia. What a big mess that would be.
Longasc
Interesting insights in the minds of a male elementalist player and his beliefs about the relative usefulness of his class. :P
bitchbar player
the problem with the para is numbers, if you make one para powerful enough the chances of people bringing multiple in pvp and there by making in OP is a fact.
maraxusofk
Paragons exist in 2 flavors
1) incredibly broken (see old school paraspike, DA chains, etc etc)
2) niche with everything nerfed to oblivion
1) incredibly broken (see old school paraspike, DA chains, etc etc)
2) niche with everything nerfed to oblivion
ZenRgy
Spear of Fury attacks target and adjacent targets.
Go for the eyes causes blindness on a crit.
We Shall Return summons 3 fallen paragon spirits to aid you in battle.
Am I promoted to GW skill balance yet?
Go for the eyes causes blindness on a crit.
We Shall Return summons 3 fallen paragon spirits to aid you in battle.
Am I promoted to GW skill balance yet?
Lishy
FoxBat
A big part of paras breaking PvP (after energizing finale was nerfed) isn't that they were better than monks, its that they were monks with 110 AL and throwing axes. This principle still somewhat works in PvE but really, SY lets you set the rest of your party to an arbitrarily high armor level, and then they can go do everything else more effectively with their spells.
beaverlegions
Ever tried joining a pug a an assassin?
Stolen Souls
Yeah, it sucks that the only things a para really has going for it right now are TNtF and SY. Playing Imbagon gets incredibly boring, and using other builds is kinda pointless, since other classes can do the same things, but better.
PvE is imbalanced beyond repair...just revert paras (in PvE) to the way they were at release. What could it possibly hurt, seeing how we already have Imbagons anyway. >_>
PvE is imbalanced beyond repair...just revert paras (in PvE) to the way they were at release. What could it possibly hurt, seeing how we already have Imbagons anyway. >_>
JONO51
I completely agree with what has been said about how they gain strength in numbers, and how that has caused a lot of imbness in PvP and they were rightly nerfed. This is the reason why they'll enever truly be allowed to be effective in pvp, as you wont get the numbers needed in 4 man and they'll be broken in 8 man if they are buffed.
however, now with the pvp/pve split, i think they can realisticly buff the moti and command lines, and bring them back to previous levels, as it will make more people play the class, and teams where you have 4 or 5+ para's are pretty fun.
Also, nerf sy and buff tactics :P
however, now with the pvp/pve split, i think they can realisticly buff the moti and command lines, and bring them back to previous levels, as it will make more people play the class, and teams where you have 4 or 5+ para's are pretty fun.
Also, nerf sy and buff tactics :P
Ney Matogrosso
Well, I really don't know why are you abandon your para to be a mule.
1-) Imbagon help all party members and in many cases is not invencible.
2-) Paragons can help monks in the support, reducing damage, helping healer, given energy.
3-) Can increase the damage of the party.
4-) There are more than one possibility to builds (not only imbagon), people must use your creativity and must be less prejudice to accept then in the partys.
SY and TNTF are not the problem, because paragons need a party to work, and the aim of the game is the group battle, if paragons could solo using SYand TNTF, I aggred that this skill must be nerfed, but in group, helping others? Don't.
Paragon is a mide-line attack/support class, they are a class to help increase damage deal, reduce damage received by the group. To Help! Think this. An army work in group, an only soldier can do few.
I agree that in pvp, Para has a few possibilitys but in a great group with 8 players if they work toggeter, a para can do much for the party.
Idon't agree that ANET forgot Para, but I think that the creativity of the players are forgot first.
1-) Imbagon help all party members and in many cases is not invencible.
2-) Paragons can help monks in the support, reducing damage, helping healer, given energy.
3-) Can increase the damage of the party.
4-) There are more than one possibility to builds (not only imbagon), people must use your creativity and must be less prejudice to accept then in the partys.
SY and TNTF are not the problem, because paragons need a party to work, and the aim of the game is the group battle, if paragons could solo using SYand TNTF, I aggred that this skill must be nerfed, but in group, helping others? Don't.
Paragon is a mide-line attack/support class, they are a class to help increase damage deal, reduce damage received by the group. To Help! Think this. An army work in group, an only soldier can do few.
I agree that in pvp, Para has a few possibilitys but in a great group with 8 players if they work toggeter, a para can do much for the party.
Idon't agree that ANET forgot Para, but I think that the creativity of the players are forgot first.
furanshisuko
A-net... please buff paragons
Sifow Chan
Quote:
Originally Posted by furanshisuko
A-net... please buff paragons
^This, BUT they need to make sure the buffs benefit the paras and not para secondaries...
Jaigoda
Bhavv, you make no sense. And Assassins, Dervs, Mesmers, and Paras are all very useful in PvE (you're right though, rits and to a lesser extent rangers, just don't get no love). 'Sins have permaform (best tank build in the game) Locust's Fury (DPS/"SY!" machine), Assassin's Promise (nonstop spikes are gud in PvE), and Moebius Blossom (some of the most DPS on a melee; potential for "SY!"). Dervs have avvy's, Zealous Renewal, lots of stuff. Mesmers have Cry of Pain, and AP/EVAS, 'nuff said. And Paras, while quite one-dimensional, are freaking awesome solely because of the Imbagon. Honestly, I think that warriors are the worst of the melee profs. Yeah, you've got Dragon Slash/"SY!" but pretty much every other build is completely outstripped by 'Sins and Dervs. And even DS doesn't have AoE damage, so it's basically a 20-second "SY!" with mediocre single-target DPS. And yes, this is with inclusion of PvE skills, but excluding them would be like saying you can't use core or proph skills. They're a part of PvE, and there's no reason NOT to use them.
Ney Matogrosso
Well you can be here talk, talk and talk (or cry, cry and cry) but to me paragons don't need buff, play very well with hero and hench, in pvp only need to think new builds and organized partys to work. With you preffer a monk or an elly, ok, if you believe that an extra help does not make difference, ok, good for you, but to me, paragons is an excellent class and can play and clean almost all the areas with hero and hench in HM, can't be a nerfed class, you must be kidding. This sound like mimimi of people that need pre-made thinks to do everything, don't buff paragon, but buff Rt, this is really an excellent class forgot for the ANET. Bazinga 
Lishy
Jaigoda, a Warrior would be able to totally replace a Paragon if not for the lack of Focused Anger.
You haven't seen those [Stunning Strike] Ub3r Daze spam builds on a Warrior, right? I'll post one later if I can.
Also, I would have to disagree on your view-point of Warriors. I see them quite the opposite of what you say. In fact, they have some of the largest amount of efficient builds and gimmicks in the game.
Warriors have [earth shaker] which is totally action-denial of numerous enemies in a mob. This is EXTREMELY powerful in areas where enemies clump up, yet are susceptible to KD. I've saw a Warrior run it in DoA's city, and it was absolute madness on how overpowered it was.
Don't forget the [Warrior's Endurance] builds that open up huge possibilities, and, of course, the StrScythe, which is very affective against high-end elite enemies due to Armor Penetration of Strength.
[Hundred Blades] may look like "lulz" at first, but it's one of the most fun skills in the game. Simply abuse Mark of Pain, as well as various other skills that trigger on physical damage, and watch the insanity of the skill. It increases damage VERY much if you combine it with [whirlwind attack]
[Triple Chop] may be an old build, but it is still efficient. Especially with the addition of [whirlwind attack] and it is a GREAT alternative to [Hundred Blades] when you feel like breaking out that chaos axe.
And when you're bored, you kick out the [Warrior's Endurance] builds again and start with the insanely powerful [Power Attack] spam and maybe even try out dagger builds, if you're feeling dangerous! [Golden Fox Strike] [Golden Fang Strike]/[Wild Strike] [Death Blossom]
Now. We all must ask:
What do paragons have in comparison to Warriors variety in builds?
[There's nothing to fear] [save yourselves]
Yeaaaaaaah....
You haven't seen those [Stunning Strike] Ub3r Daze spam builds on a Warrior, right? I'll post one later if I can.
Also, I would have to disagree on your view-point of Warriors. I see them quite the opposite of what you say. In fact, they have some of the largest amount of efficient builds and gimmicks in the game.
Warriors have [earth shaker] which is totally action-denial of numerous enemies in a mob. This is EXTREMELY powerful in areas where enemies clump up, yet are susceptible to KD. I've saw a Warrior run it in DoA's city, and it was absolute madness on how overpowered it was.
Don't forget the [Warrior's Endurance] builds that open up huge possibilities, and, of course, the StrScythe, which is very affective against high-end elite enemies due to Armor Penetration of Strength.
[Hundred Blades] may look like "lulz" at first, but it's one of the most fun skills in the game. Simply abuse Mark of Pain, as well as various other skills that trigger on physical damage, and watch the insanity of the skill. It increases damage VERY much if you combine it with [whirlwind attack]
[Triple Chop] may be an old build, but it is still efficient. Especially with the addition of [whirlwind attack] and it is a GREAT alternative to [Hundred Blades] when you feel like breaking out that chaos axe.
And when you're bored, you kick out the [Warrior's Endurance] builds again and start with the insanely powerful [Power Attack] spam and maybe even try out dagger builds, if you're feeling dangerous! [Golden Fox Strike] [Golden Fang Strike]/[Wild Strike] [Death Blossom]
Now. We all must ask:
What do paragons have in comparison to Warriors variety in builds?
[There's nothing to fear] [save yourselves]
Yeaaaaaaah....
Jaigoda
Variety =/= good. SY+TNTF is the reason why the build is called the Imbagon.
And the warrior thing is only an opinion. I don't see all that much use of KD's when you can just have +100AL on everybody. WE works alright, but honestly I think MS>DB kind of out-DPS's it. And yeah, I've always had a special place in my heart for HB, but experimenting with Locust's Fury has led me to believe that it's superior to HB. And Triple Chop doesn't even compare, period. I mean, you can do some cool stuff with warriors, but I think they've just been pushed out by all of the massive-DPS builds that are going around for other profs.
And the warrior thing is only an opinion. I don't see all that much use of KD's when you can just have +100AL on everybody. WE works alright, but honestly I think MS>DB kind of out-DPS's it. And yeah, I've always had a special place in my heart for HB, but experimenting with Locust's Fury has led me to believe that it's superior to HB. And Triple Chop doesn't even compare, period. I mean, you can do some cool stuff with warriors, but I think they've just been pushed out by all of the massive-DPS builds that are going around for other profs.
Improvavel
Curiously the best build for a warrior in PvE in a human team is [earth shaker].
Axel Zinfandel
I think Anet's first mistake was giving a paragon 80 armor base.
I don't think ANYONE would complain if they brought it down to 70. Flame me all you want, and I know its a nerf, but if Anet is going to rework paragons to make their skills more widely usable then they are first going to have to nerf the basics of the class, because a backline character with 80 armor with skills buffed like how we all have in mind is not 'fixing' the class, it's just buffing them.
Fixing the motivation line would be simple and awesome in PvE, and requires little changes:
-Reduced recharge times for the Aria's and Ballads and [Song of Restoration]
-Fix [Lyric of Purification] and [Lyric of Zeal]. Players in PvE rarely use signets.
-OPTIONAL: make [The power is yours] more useful as a battery skill.
Command would be more useful if they simply made a lot of the skills more widely usable. Quite seriously the only skills that ever see popular play in the Command attribute is [Anthem of Weariness], [Go for the eyes], and sometimes [Stand your ground]. A say they change functionality of a lot of the skills that involve IMS, as it isn't used mid battle in PvE, and improve some of the other skills a little.
Paragons currently are mostly torn simply because they just use Leadership/Spear mastery, and are forced to put points just to use a shield.
I don't think ANYONE would complain if they brought it down to 70. Flame me all you want, and I know its a nerf, but if Anet is going to rework paragons to make their skills more widely usable then they are first going to have to nerf the basics of the class, because a backline character with 80 armor with skills buffed like how we all have in mind is not 'fixing' the class, it's just buffing them.
Fixing the motivation line would be simple and awesome in PvE, and requires little changes:
-Reduced recharge times for the Aria's and Ballads and [Song of Restoration]
-Fix [Lyric of Purification] and [Lyric of Zeal]. Players in PvE rarely use signets.
-OPTIONAL: make [The power is yours] more useful as a battery skill.
Command would be more useful if they simply made a lot of the skills more widely usable. Quite seriously the only skills that ever see popular play in the Command attribute is [Anthem of Weariness], [Go for the eyes], and sometimes [Stand your ground]. A say they change functionality of a lot of the skills that involve IMS, as it isn't used mid battle in PvE, and improve some of the other skills a little.
Paragons currently are mostly torn simply because they just use Leadership/Spear mastery, and are forced to put points just to use a shield.
Reverend Dr
To the challenges presented as "X paragons cannot keep up with 1 of some class"
[build prof=P/Mo name="Para-Infuse" hea=3 spe=9 mot=12 lea=9][Infuse Health][disrupting throw][Signet of Synergy][Finale of Restoration][Chorus of Restoration][the power is yours][Ballad of Restoration][purifying finale][/build]
[build prof=P/Mo name="Para-SoR" spe=9 mot=12 lea=9][disrupting throw][Signet of Synergy][Finale of Restoration][Chorus of Restoration][Mending Refrain][Song of Restoration][Ballad of Restoration][energizing chorus][/build]
[build prof=P/r name="Para-Flesh" spe=8 comma=11 lea=11 mot=2][Spear Swipe][make haste][stand your ground][its just a flesh wound][fall back][anthem of envy][go for the eyes][Signet of Return][/build]
[build prof=P/mo name="Para-Inc"][Spear Swipe][incoming][go for the eyes][anthem of flame][blazing finale][they're on fire][infuse health][Signet of Return][/build]
This is an old HA backline we've used. A little bit outdated since the lingering curse update, but the one I can copy/paste quickly. This outheals most builds in HA, including the ones with a HB, divine healings on the P&H, and PwK in the midline.
Paragons have two main problems. First outside of 8v8 they lose so much support and energy management; this alone is going to forever keep them out of GvG. The second problem is that shouts/chants get better with more shouts/chants, meaning that a single paragon is usually lackluster, but add more and the difference becomes more noticeable; this makes balancing them difficult as if 1 is viable then more will be overpowered.
[build prof=P/Mo name="Para-Infuse" hea=3 spe=9 mot=12 lea=9][Infuse Health][disrupting throw][Signet of Synergy][Finale of Restoration][Chorus of Restoration][the power is yours][Ballad of Restoration][purifying finale][/build]
[build prof=P/Mo name="Para-SoR" spe=9 mot=12 lea=9][disrupting throw][Signet of Synergy][Finale of Restoration][Chorus of Restoration][Mending Refrain][Song of Restoration][Ballad of Restoration][energizing chorus][/build]
[build prof=P/r name="Para-Flesh" spe=8 comma=11 lea=11 mot=2][Spear Swipe][make haste][stand your ground][its just a flesh wound][fall back][anthem of envy][go for the eyes][Signet of Return][/build]
[build prof=P/mo name="Para-Inc"][Spear Swipe][incoming][go for the eyes][anthem of flame][blazing finale][they're on fire][infuse health][Signet of Return][/build]
This is an old HA backline we've used. A little bit outdated since the lingering curse update, but the one I can copy/paste quickly. This outheals most builds in HA, including the ones with a HB, divine healings on the P&H, and PwK in the midline.
Paragons have two main problems. First outside of 8v8 they lose so much support and energy management; this alone is going to forever keep them out of GvG. The second problem is that shouts/chants get better with more shouts/chants, meaning that a single paragon is usually lackluster, but add more and the difference becomes more noticeable; this makes balancing them difficult as if 1 is viable then more will be overpowered.
bhavv
Reverend, those builds that you posted are old pre - nerf builds that used to be used in HA and are the reasons why paragons got nerfed today.
No one in PVE is ever going to want an infuse paragon on their team.
It is a fun gimmick to try, but then again, so is my E/A dagger build with two [earth shaker] warriors and a [strength of honor] smite bonder.
Just because something is enjoyable to play doesnt necessarilly make it balanced.
I could have, if I ever wanted to, defend [flare] everytime it is critisized because I could if I wanted to, make a team of 8 flare elementalists that could beat the whole game. That doesnt automatically make [flare] a good skill just because it can work.
Paragons are flawed, because of how much they have been nerfed due to abuse in HA to the point where they are weaker than other classes in PVE. there is no reason why their skills shouldnt get improved for PVE.
No one in PVE is ever going to want an infuse paragon on their team.
It is a fun gimmick to try, but then again, so is my E/A dagger build with two [earth shaker] warriors and a [strength of honor] smite bonder.
Just because something is enjoyable to play doesnt necessarilly make it balanced.
I could have, if I ever wanted to, defend [flare] everytime it is critisized because I could if I wanted to, make a team of 8 flare elementalists that could beat the whole game. That doesnt automatically make [flare] a good skill just because it can work.
Paragons are flawed, because of how much they have been nerfed due to abuse in HA to the point where they are weaker than other classes in PVE. there is no reason why their skills shouldnt get improved for PVE.
Jaigoda
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Originally Posted by bhavv
P.S. Warriors also have a weapon called a hammer that does this [earth shaker] and this [yeti smash]. Ive been using them on my heroes for quite a long time now and it is far more usefull then paragon heroes can be.
They can also solo farm much more of the game then Paragons can, oh, and strength warriors with spears and [flail] are actually far more effective then paragons are with their own weapon.
Quote: Originally Posted by bhavv
My reasons for why the paragon class is currently broken and needs a major update so far outweigh your defence that they are fine because of Imbagon. Most people kind of get bored of playing the same thing over and over again, and the whole reason they want a buff is because other than the Imbagon build, paragons cant really do much else in PVE that compares to the other classes. I never said that Paragons didn't need an update! I was only responding to your claims that professions outside of your supposed core 5 were useless. I was saying that Paragons are useful if only because of Imbagon. It would obviously be nice to have other builds to use, and I fully support that.
Quote: Originally Posted by bhavv
Assasins and Mesmers are more powerful then Paragons in PVE if you exclude the PVE skills, and that right there is showing how broken the class is.
Jesus christ, here you go on about excluding PvE skills again. PvE skills are part of the game, excluding them is just plain stupid. Here's another example. If you excluded, say, PnH from PvP play, then you could say that Mesmers and Necros would be unstoppable without the crazy hex removal tha PnH gives. But the fact is, it's in the game, and trying to pretend it's not there is just plain retarded.
Originally Posted by bhavv
My argument is that for the sake of balance and equal enjoyment from all the classes, they should all be equally as good with their normal skills without having to use the PVE only skills to become as usefull as the Elly / Necro / Monk / Warrior are.
While this is a valiant idea, it's just going to be a hell of a lot of work for Anet (something they haven't seemed to want to do) simply because they have to keep balance in PvP, so a good majority of their updates would need to split skills (something they've said they don't like to do). And keep in mind, every class right now has at least one use, and that IS with including PvE skills. Every class can be useful in a regular group, and the only profs that really miss out on farming groups are warriors and paras (though admittedly warriors can solo farm somewhat well). Every prof besides paragons (simply because they are group-focused characters, no way around it) can solo farm as well. And EVERY profession can run to at least some degree of success.Originally Posted by bhavv
Quote: Originally Posted by bhavv
I have never liked the PVE only skills and do not consider them when thinking of class balance in this game.
Good for you. So can I say that I never liked dervishes in PvP, so I can just exclude them from class balance because, I don't know, I'm too lame to get over it? I don't know how many time's I'll need to say this: They are part of the game! If you don't like them, that's too bad, because they're here to stay unless Anet turns PvE upside down.Quote: Originally Posted by bhavv
I wasnt comparing WY to SY, I meant to compare WY to the paragons normal 'non PVE only' and 'non elite' skill line.
Sorry, must have misread that there. And that's sort of why paragons don't use those skills. I could also say that Agressive Refrain, short of maybe Drunken Master and Critical Agility, is the best IAS in the game.Quote: Originally Posted by bhavv
You are fully misinterperating and misquoting what I am meaning to discuss because you are so obsessed with Imbagon and TNTF + SY.
I'm not obessed with anything, except maybe the game itself. I just don't like you critisizing all of the non-core profs (plus Mesmers) because they need to rely on PvE skills to be powerful. Quote: Originally Posted by bhavv
If you are going to discuss skill balance with me, you need to get over and fully ignore PVE only skills before you can get it right.
No.
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