Should Fort Aspenwood be simply removed from the ZQuest rotation?

Random arena and balance don't work that well together. They can make it another mirror map with shrine capping, but we already have plenty of those.

The best thing I can think of is to drop Gunther and the turtles and make it a raid map, 16 or more players at each side, the fort is already there. The first real raid in GW, that's news It could become very popular so a matchmaking system would be needed then to avoid a random team facing a (synching) veteran raid guild/team. After x wins, the starting positions can be swapped so the Kurzicks have to recap the fort. Almost similar like the line on the map in factions, but on a smaller scale.

Like mentioned countless times - the turtles are one of the easiest things to disable. So given that - when you are dealing with players that know how to abuse the broken aspects of the battlefield - the buffs to the turtles were pretty irrelevant. Well, outside of the "hard to interrupt" clause. But just like pretty much every other idea that was introduced to just counter a specific tactic rather then focus on the problem itself - it's dumb and should be removed.

And the shortened timer just means that there is much less time to pressure the Kurzicks.

I guess what the Luxons need a better balanced game.


As I have said in the other thread - add an active objective for the Kurzicks. And if that objective is not fulfilled once the timer runs out - the game ends in a draw.
That also forces Kurzicks to rely on luck - since the active objective would demand some sort of a split between defensive and offensive characters, which would mean that completely defensive Kurzick teams would pretty much be unable to win.

Upier, have you even seen FA lately?
Kurzicks are noob pvpers and obviously luxons have a better chance of winning :V

It would only be balanced if the Luxons would get a passive objective then. It's not logical to think Kurzicks should focus on holding Luxon's advance while at the same time taking care of another active objective besides running amber to restore the gates.

I think FA is balanced enough. I've been playing Luxon side for a few days now and I've won tons of times. A lot of the kurzick players don't know what they are doing and run around like chickens with their heads cut off. Every once in a while I'll come across a team who knows what they are doing, but thats every 3/10 battles.

Also to answer the question, it shouldn't be removed from the zquest rotation. FA is fine & dandy from my experience.

oh please. all the luxons need to do is bring big damage and enchant removal and they win. it requires zero to little coordination to accomplish. just mob and pile damage on anything that gets in your way and go win the game. you're goal is to siege and assassinate, so bring the tools to do so and you'll be fine. even 2-3 monks can't out-heal 8 damage dealers + uber turtles + uber hammer warriors. if you lose on the luxon side, you have only yourselves to blame.

the kurzick side requires team coordination to win which RARELY happens in such a random environment.

FA is fine and should stay in rotation, and the only imbalances i see are in favor of the luxons, not against. oh boo hoo, so monks can stand behind the gates and heal things...that doesn't mean you can't kill the target they're healing, not by a long shot. if one monk can stop your whole team in its tracks, you're doing it wrong and the kurzicks deserve the win.

This topic is so old.....why put a new twist on it that really isn't worth putting on it? Zmissions are optional. Who crys over an option? There's a learning curve to all pvp related areas. Why get crappy about it? It is what it is.

As far as Kurzick side being easier...
I obtained max Kruzick title in FA, from almost start to finish. If I had the option to gain kurzick faction by attacking the fort instead of defending it, i would have attacked it. It's MUCH easier to attack it. One person can truly make a difference on the Luxon side if they know what they are doing. One person who knows how the NPC's work can really win the match for Luxon. This is not true on the kurzick side. one healer won't win the match.

To put it in simple terms: Luxons play pvE (there's no super benefit in killing other players unless they can perform huge amounts of healing at well timed intervals). Kurzick play PVP.

Agreed. Luxons can just randomly attack targets and still have a very good chance of winning. Kurzick pretty much needs multiple monks to win now that the turtle has AoE strip enchant. Getting people to amber run is actually a lot harder than it sounds, if there is a runner but no one help him cap mines its useless. And of course all the wars and sins in kurzick can't do anything efficiently.

Played a lot of FA this weekend, on both sides, with multiple different chars. Won 100% of matches as a Kurzick but only 2 (in 12-15 played) as Luxon, and Luxons didn't suck badly in most of the matches lost. When both teams are ~equal, Kurzicks will always win = Map is clearly imbalanced.

The problem with FA is : luxon have to bring 50% offense and 50% defense (hard with random team), and kurzick have juste to bring defense. Here we go lineback 100% time, 3/4/5 monks and ritualists.

Another stupid fact is kurzicks npc = anti melee. caping a kurzick mine with a war = pain. caping a luxon mine with two crappy rangers is so easy. Even command points are easiers than luxons mine imho
And i forget kurzick elementalists, yeeeee gogo ward & sliver armor ><
So luxon ppl take casters, like fire ele and roj monks, because playing melee in this side is so painful, but when thoses casters have to kill monks in the final rush to the green gate or Gunther, they're totally inefficient, and only good melee/shutdown can break the shitton of kurzick bonds+heals.

reducing time for the vengeance of the god broke FA imo, with a rez shrine at the opposite of the objective, luxons loose 50-60% of their time running and walking.

The problem is that running amber is an optional objective. What could be done though is make it into a mandatory for winning. This could be achieved by adding a second counter - a simple counter that counts the number of ambers brought in. If the Kurzicks fail to bring in a specific number of amber at the end of the match - the match ends in a draw.
This forces a number of tactics:
1. the Kurzicks focus on achieving a draw. Full monk teams - Luxons can not get in to kill Gunther. Game ends in a draw because the Luxons failed to achieve the goal of killing Gunthy and Kurzicks failed to bring in the required number of amber.
2. Luxons try to force a draw by camping the amber sites, killing everyone that comes close on sight, thus preventing Kurzicks from obtaining the needed amber. This of course means that no-one goes after Gunther - which means that Luxons can not win. Draw again.
3. Luxons push into the castle - letting Kurzicks go after amber. If the guys want to bring in amber - the doors need to go down, which opens up the chance for the Luxons to go in. Kurzicks obtain amber BUT they can not hide behind a wall. And if the Kurzicks control the mines - that means the Luxons spawn at the other side of the map - massively increasing the time it takes them to reach the castle again.
4. Various splits. Some Kurzicks defend Gunthy, while other run amber VS. some Luxons advance into the castle while other guys camp the amber sites.

Of course what then needs to be looked at are the NPCs. Trash the Turtle, trash the Jaggy, trash the ability to fix the gates, ... these are all variables that can be looked at.

Ok Upier, but I don't like the 'draw' part in your example. If a draw still results in faction points for both sides, why would you play at all? Force a draw, both teams win in terms of gaining faction. Anet can remove /roll there too, just in case

If a draw results in no faction at all for nobody, FA could become a hard place to earn some points then.

It's a hard place to earn faction as is - at least if you're Luxon.

In regards to Upier's ideas, I too do not appreciate the draw but everything else is solid. How do you think a scoring system would work, Upier? And he who has the higher score wins?

Look at the numbers. If you want the Luxons to win more, start making more GUILDS. Most guilds are Kurzick, and if you have an equal ratio of good players on either side, you will get more Kurzick players of quality than Luxons.

Luxons can ride the turtles in. Kurzicks can bond the npcs. The map is equal. As is always the case, it's the humans that mess the game up.

The map is not balanced - simple as.

Anyone saying otherwise needs to look past the Kurdick/Suxon nonsense that is clouding their viewpoint of this obvious fact, or gtfo. It brings nothing to the discussion - which aims to open the door to ideas - which might bring about some much needed change to this format.

All these 'zomg just roll a monk and send turtles and blow stuff up and sync' etc etc posts are pointless. Post them somewhere else about how great you and your faction are.

FA is imbalanced.
~~

For starters (but not necessarily the most important), melee needs to become a viable option for the luxons.

Yes people run defy pain tanks, or scrimmage outside the fort, but that isn't the goal.

Step one needs to be (imo) changing up some of the Kurz npc bars ~

Eles:Necros:Ranger:Rit:War:
Ofc some are more potent than others.

Add on top of this just one healer, be it Rit or Monk or w/e...and the door is essentially closed for Luxon Melee.

...Looking forward, an organised version of FA would be awesome...imo.

The draw mechanic would prevent Kurzicks wining by default.
The game still needs to be to play out, God's Vengeance would need to fill up, so you can't really force a draw prematurely. If the Kurzick do not bring in enough amber and the Luxons do not kill Gunthy by the time God's Vengeance fills up - nobody wins. Which is a much better option then the current where in such scenarios the Kurzick automatically win.
What this would do is make the prologued battles less attractive for the Kurzick (because we need to push them away from the all monk teams) and give a slightly better reward to the Luxons when they really can not do anything because the Kurzick decided to screw them over (by abusing the hiding behind a wall mechanic).

Whereas the goal of killing Gunthy still wins the game for the Luxon.
And bringing in the required amount of amber would give a new way of wining the game for the Kurzick. That way they wouldn't need to wait it out till GV is complete.

That is why I feel that implementing the draw mechanic is vital for this map. It forces the Kurzicks to actively seek victory, otherwise they gain much less faction.

FA is so imbalanced it's not funny. 3+ monks means lux most likely lose. It's easier for 3 monks to heal damage from 8+ people.

However luxons needs to get through their heads to go kill healers before npcs but they don't seem to do it which makes me want to smash their heads with rocks.

The kurz npcs are far superior to the luxon ones. Luxon wars and rangers are pathetic. The wars are only good in a group not to mention the turtle stops moving if a Kurz is nearby.

I think luxons should all start playing touchers. 8 touchers would blow through FA, monks can't outheal that much life steal not to mention their prot prayers will become useless.

It would be too easy for Kurzicks to camp in the base and screw over the poor turtle AI. Touchers can't kill or deter players camping up in the fort and, although multiple touchers would get through, they'd never be able to touch Gunther and his buddies to death without support from at least one turtle.

The simple solution... don't play as a melee character.
Adjust your build/character to the zone, not the zone to your character. This is like a mesmer with backfire complaining when he enters a PvE zone that has only warriors and rangers. You know in advance what builds the NPCs have. Design to counter it.

Further proves part of the imbalance.

The difference in that example is that a Mesmer could still bring something to the table to combat that zone.

But when you're melee oriented, what can you do besides play as something else?

Granted as a Sin you could go castsin (xp) but that's about it.

I like Upier's suggestion about giving the kurzicks a more active goal. Increase the amount of the weapon each chunk of amber fixes up so they have to run less but eliminate the auto completion. Tone down the turtles siege but fix their AI so they will fire, then move, and not park if something is agro'd. they should only stop if a gate is up. Maybe make the weapon an actual thing you can attack and damage, like the asuran gate in a gate too far quest, and to break a draw whoever repaired or did more damage to it wins.

There IS a trick to playing melee in FA, I use a warrior there all the time.

Basically, it's the whole rest of the teams job to blast the gates down and nuke/range the necromancers and kurz eles, you can either ride the turtles or follow someone with range, once that happens, you destroy a gate keeper in 3 seconds or less. I can't tell you how many times I've chased amber runners through the outer, inner and green gates to take a shot at rawdick and polesucker, resulting in they're deaths(or delaying amber production). Once you learn the patterns and habits of the Kurzick npc's AI you can even plan a melee bar that can hurt them. I can solo a mine on a war, just hit the displacement spirit 2-3 times, heal sig or lions comfort, then gank the cleanser. It's possible to teleport onto a kurz ele, earth shaker it and it's buddies, unleash a hammer spike, then retreat out of any remaining melee hate. Basically a melee that knows what it's doing will own here, but a noob melee will be useless.

The problem is not only to luxon players not play bars that are agressive enough, they just don't use aggressive tactics, and screw around to much outside the gates. Like if a turtle's still alive there's no reason to go take back it's command point if it falls, or a ranger going 1v1 against another ranger instead of turning it's fire on a gate NPC or healer. The worst is when the green gate is down or open, people pussyfoot around outside, let the kurz set upo a defensive shop inside. Now me, everytime the green gate goes down, I death's charge up in there or use whatever speed boost I have to get inside, threaten the keepers, draw attention away from defense at the green NPCs and usually that makes the gate fall, even if I don't kill the keeper.

If every luxon played like I did, got aggressive at the gates, chase other players through open doors, ganked critical NPCs instead of wasting time on tanks or pointless 1v1s we'd win way more often.

...Are you kiddin' me?

/Facepalm - Seriously, gtfo.

~
Manatee, you are truly Manly. Indeed there are ways to play Warrior [Melee], but as you state ..and again the age old problem crops up in that you can't organise your teams, you cant ensure your team is doing whats necessary, and you can't even rely on the Turtles.

As such, while you're waiting for the Gates to be broken etc, you are just skirmishing outside killing Amber runners and Mine Cappers - meanwhile, Gunther isn't taking any damage, the Timer is ticking away, and the Kurzick are winning.

Yeh, you can run through when the gates are open -waiting for the npcs to use their problem skills on other targets first etc..but it is by no means fast or in most cases viable.
~~

Not too sure about the Draw mechanic, but something else I was pondering that might increase the odds for the Lux [i.e. balance things] -

Moving Teleport points and Rez spots.

At the moment, Luxons end up pretty gimped if they die while not having any of the Amber mines - (I'll assume you know what I mean, and where they rez) -

Similarly, when rezzing at the Amber Mines, Luxons are still annoyingly far away from the Command Posts meaning (unless you have an IMS) you waste further valuable seconds wandering over there to trigger them - or more commonly, (if you don't do it yourself) they are ignored - tipping the balance even more in favor of the Kurz.

This is literally just off the top of my head, but...



Yellow: Kurz Teleport

Red: Luxon permanent Rez points (Circle = Rocks that need removing)

If the luxons were able to permanently rez at these points, players would be encouraged to send the turtles when available (because more players would hopefully see/notice/care they had respawned), without wasting too much time - yet still near enough to complete the other 'objectives'.

Kurz teleport can be moved so they too still have the option of going for either Mine, far enough away from Lux rez points and turtle path.

If Lux start camping the teleport, Kurz can simply use gates.

Maybe to counter the same kinda thing coming from the Kurz, Lux rez points could have our friendly old Base Defender nearby.

Discuss.

How is it imbalanced because some classes shouldn't be used?

That's like saying GvG is imbalanced because sins aren't used in the meta.

welcome to guild wars

Or more like saying this game isn't balanced, and Sins are not used in GVG as a result? Owait.

It's not that Melee (lol @ 'Some Classes') *Shouldn't* be used, it's that they 'basically' *Can't* i.e. are rendered useless by most the opposing npcs.

FA doesn't need to be considered against any other format when you're talking balance. FA is FA...and I believe that's what we're discussing.

In a game like TF2, Counter-Strike, or Battlefield, it would be different. Yes, some situations call for certain classes or set-ups, but you're also allowed to change your class the next time you respawn. Not so much for TF2. You can't change your deck once you draw your hand.

As such, each PvP area needs to allow each class and profession. Otherwise the devs need to put up warning signs in regards to what classes work and which don't.

If Assassins don't work in GvG, does that mean it's imbalanced? Well before we ask that, we look and see if any of the other classes are having problems, or if any classes are primarily used. If there is no other class having difficulties then the problem lies in the profession, not GvG.

Same thing goes for FA. If *all* of the melee classes are having problems, wherein lies the problem? Where's the imbalance? Are some classes more successful in certain areas? It's all about pinpointing *where* the problem is.

The exact same thing can be applied to classes that are doing very well, but just a bit vice versa.

I've played the build you mentioned before (RoJ with RoD/ smite hex/condition and Patient) and it just literally destroys the kurzick npc's (with only ONE skill!) while still having enough utility to keep the turtles up for a long time. This is pretty broken; a support class should not be able to be a jack of all trades AND do it so effectively that RoJ monks can.

Other way around from my point of view: the kurzicks needs to rely on luck so that they get 2-3 monks, otherwise they automatically lose.

Seems like your whole complaint about FA is that "kurzicks have monks therefore they win". Well that's nice and all, but there are many, many games I've been in where I've never seen one monk (or healer for that matter) on kurzick. Since this is a random format, I really think you need a new argument on why you think the kurzicks have the advantage.

If anything they need to tone down the rate that the gates can be broken down. Everytime I go out and get an amber with 33% IMS, and run back to the base, all 4 gates gets completely broken down by the turtles and AoE abuse. Which means we need at least 3 runners to be able to keep up with the rate the gates are destroyed. And that is assuming that the mines are always open. Of course that also mean we have not enough people defending.

The only exception is when there are multiple monks stalling long enough for the amber runner to get back, and even then one decent mesmer can ruin everything.

Pretty much everytime I win at kurzick is when I play monk and there are 2 other healers on my team, or luxon had a lot of leechers, or their team is entirely melee/ranger so I can heal from behind gates without a caster moving up and targeting me. AkA, kurzick only wins with luck, while luxon is the imbalanced one.

Again, anyone still in any doubt about how/why FA is broken should probably visit this thread first http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...37304&page=22&

It is 22 pages long for a reason.

Oh...and RoJ being broken isn't news.

It's also due to the fact that Luxons suck.

Before you say anything, I am a luxon.

The majority of Luxon players are bad. Sure Kurzick has a fair load of bad players, but from my experience I see much better use of builds, skills and team work from Kurzick players than from Luxons. I don't know why this is, but I'm just stating what I see.

I almost never play at FA any more, because out of 30-40 matches, I've won about 3 (I play kurzick).

I laugh every time people say that Kurzicks have the advantage. The juggernaut sits there doing nothing most of the time and doesn't respawn, the turtles can nuke everything at range (and aren't as easy to distract as one might think), the gates get destroyed quicker than they can be fixed, and once the luxons get past the gates there is no stopping them. They WILL kill the gatekeepers, and they WILL kill Gunther. The only possible way I can see to win the mission is to have a crapload of healers. But if you're going to assume such ideal conditions for the kurzicks, then you must also assume that the luxons have brought a bunch of spikers that can kill Gunther in spite of the healing.

I really don't see how that's possible. Out of the ~25 FA matches I've done at all times of the day in the past 2 weeks, I'm fairly sure I can count the number of losses on one hand.

If a monk is watching the juggernaut, it won't go down easily, and will actually do damage. The turtles are very easy to take down before they breach the two initial breaks unless a monk is watching (which I've seen maybe 2 times). The luxons get to the last gate all the time, and they rarely win. You don't need a crapload of healers, you need one or two decent ones.

Either I'm a frickin amazing player, you play with the worst players and against the best, or you're really over exaggerating.

Successor of Emperor Kisu is going to reunite all the luxon and kurzicks in about 250 years so stop fighting now and lets go kill Emperor Kisu.

That aside, the maps are not broken, it is the way Arena Net has intended it to be. one side luxon has more advantage the other side kurziks has more advantage. Stop arguing about the maps. You loose some you win some.

The problem of removing auto-completion shows when the Luxons camp the amber mines. If they take down EVERYONE that comes close to the mine - the Kurzick can not bring in amber - which will result in a pretty much never-ending battle.
That's going to be bad.
That's why I suggested two counters.


This.
Also, once the green gate goes down - the guys do not fix it IF they are under attack. So, once it goes down, run in, start wanding the NPCS that are not Gunthy (I always forget waht they are called). The guys will understand that they are under attack and refuse to fix the green gate.
Hexes do not count as damage in this case! If you just hex him - he won't see this as damage!


That's "luck" you can control.
Once Kurzicks start playing to win - they'll realize that rolling a monk is the best option. And once every guy in the outpost rolls a monk and enters with that guy - each and every person does everything in their power to have the best team they can. The only luck you need to rely on is that you won't be paired up with morons.
Whereas as a Luxon there is no ONE build to rule them all. You need a pretty balanced party. In a random arena.
What that means you need to hope that Lady Luck smiles down at you and decides to pair you with some monks, some mesmers, some necros, ...
And you still need to rely on the luck of not getting paired up with morons.


Now - Kurzick teams without a monk can still win. But that also means that they have given the Luxons a fair chance. Let's be honest though, that's kinda dumb. I mean, if you are trying to win - you use the best option possible. And if you aren't using that chance - that means you are bad. And why should bad teams win?


In PvP - there is no CoP.
GW is currently build on a very simple division - physicals are damage dealers and casters support them.
And THAT is why it's broken that the OFFENSIVE side can not really use physicals.

Primal echoes & Edge of Extinction (EoE), is effective to deploy against the Kursics.

thats was one of the reasons why EoE was nerfed a while back -but its still effective.

haha i've just got the idea of syncing 8 bloodspikers on luxons side...would be interesting xD.

The biggest issue I can see with FA is the ability to completely lock up the turtles. It seems pretty stupid that I can go afk at the top of the fort where no one can get me without breaching the inner gates and just lock one sides turtle so that it fires into the wall the whole game.

FA is all about the randomness of parties. If you are lucky you get a balanced team if not you get screwed.

I did a fair number of FA matches this weekend and had lots of wins as a Luxon. Some of my losses were do to smart play on the part of the Kurzicks but most were do to bad parties. One such party had 4 rangers and only 1 ele. Great for interupts but with so little dmg one monk was able to keep us from ever killing the Jugernaught.

On the flip side I had 2 matches with all casters, split both times between Eles/Monks/Necos and won both matches in almost record time.

Should party formation be added to Fort Aspenwood?
Would that improve the balance of the matches?

Reason why this is even a problem is because of faction and titles. If you didn't have a title to collect points for, you could join whichever side you wanted, attacker or defender.

I have to agree that something should be done to balance FA. I only play the kurzick side at the moment, and I've only played FA recently for the zquest. The only characters I take in there are my monk or mesmer.

It took a lot longer to get my 9 wins on my mesmer, usually because very few monks seemed to be playing, and the other players did not seem to realise the importance of holding the amber mins and fixing the gates. On the other hand, I got 9 consecutive wins on the last FA zquest on my monk using a spammy Air of Enchantment build, and just guarding npcs. Boring, yes. Effective, yes. I'm not exactly the worlds greatest monk (very very far from it, in fact!), and the build I used is pretty lame - but if I can hold a gate alone just by spamming enchantments on a gate guard elementalist, there is a bit of a problem. Yes, the luxons could have brought some heavy enchantment hate like well of the profane, or someone could have rolled a dom mesmer - but no one did. Then again, just because counters exist, doesn't make the tactic in any way balanced.

The only times I seem to ever lose on my monk are 1: a luxon actually has brought heavy enchant hate, or 2: some muppet decides to open the green gate and run amber when the luxons are knocking at the door, and proceeds to look confused when the NPC's won't accept his/her amber and I get ganked by a team of frustrated luxons.

I'd love to see the map get more balanced, because I have to admit - guarding NPC's is really boring, even if it is a 99.5% chance of winning. I have more fun playing FA as a powerblock mesmer, but a better win rate playing a monk enchantment spammer.