Should Fort Aspenwood be simply removed from the ZQuest rotation?

You appear to misunderstand the meaning of default. The default situation is that the Kurzicks win. This is true of any game where one team is defending against an attacker.
If nothing happens to alter the default situation, then the Kurzicks win. The argument put forward is:
"That something can only happen by poor play on the part of the Kurzicks and good play on the part of the Luxons."

I guess you have never see one single monk stopping the turtle in it's tracks at the outside gate?
What would need to be done is time Expunge with the turtles' attack and hope that you'll get PS and SB and that the Kurzick monks do not notice the incoming spike and negate it by simply overhealing it.
You know like, get 8 REALLY bad monks that can't scroll to the turtle or simply count down to it's next attack.
The turtle is just a sponge that hopefully the bad Kurzick players waste their best skills on.


I do appreciate your idea of messing around with the fragile minds of bad Kurzick players, so that the next time they play Aspy - they go after the turtle and leave the real threats alone.

This is another thread about the constant complaining about "balance" in Fort Aspenwood.

If ArenaNet can supposedly track every single chat log and trade in the game, then I would hope that they can do something as simple as track games played in Fort Aspenwood and the win/loss ratio. That said, if they haven't fixed FA after months of running in the status quo, then it's because they think it's not broken or it's not worth their time to fix it.

If you look at FA, it's one of the slower methods to faction farm. The only reason why anybody does it is because it doesn't require a full team, any talent, or even proper builds to run. Best of all, regardless if you were the team's MVP or the village idiot, everybody gets the exact same rewards. With that kind of payout, it's no surprise that some of the worst people in game are going to end up here.

Yes, there's a small Kurzick advantage, mostly because the Luxon have to play with some kind of focus to win. That is, if both sides are filled with equally dumb players, and everybody just plays deathmatch, then the Kurzicks will most likely win.

However, because of this, the Luxon get an obscene payout. If the Luxon break the two outer gates--which often happen in the first two minutes of the game if they have no leechers--then they already have more guaranteed faction than any losing game in Alliance Battle. With just a little effort (and coordination), Luxon can break four gates and everything else beyond that is gravy. This is probably how ArenaNet has effectively claimed balance in the arena, as Luxon get such a ridiculous reward for losing that who really cares?

If the Luxon break all five gates even one time (and still lose), then a loss in FA pays the same as a win in Alliance Battle on over half of the maps.

I agree that the map is majorly in favor of the Kurzicks. Let's be honest, you dont pick the team you are on. Certainly a well balanced luxon team with the right builds can be effective on the map, but that rarely seems to happen. It's basically RA on a competitive map. It's hard to organize an effective strategy with random people and their random builds.

The problem is that given that scenario, the kurzick side has a tremendous advantage. They really just have to sit back and play defensive. That's easy. I've never lost a match when playing form the kurzick side and it's not because the teams i've been on are that good.

The Kurzicks need a much longer respawn time, since they spawn right on top of Gunther while Luxons spawn outside the gates at best (and possibly all the way back at the starting point if some enterprising Kurzick fried the 3rd mine and command posts)

On a related note, make the turtles auto-deploy, so people don't have to run all the way back there to get them

Making the Luxon NPCs suck less would help. The mine guards are a joke, and the monks with the commanders even more so (I've never seen them use anything but [protective spirit], which doesn't help much by itself)...

Scourge healing helps but also common sense if you have power healers on gunther one person should be able to drop a monk who is focusing on gunther. Once he has to heal himself you can hope your team can take out gunther. Call targets stay focused and it is win. The door thing is a total different thing that could be addressed make spells work only when door is open " never going to happen but it would shake things up "

I quadruple turtles should auto send when ready

I dare to claim that despite the tactical advantage of being the defender that battles in aspenwood are not nearly as unbalanced as people make it sound.

What do we think the Kurzick/Luxon win/loss ratio is?

It does not seem to be so significantly biased in favor of the Kurzicks that change is needed.


BTW: Why is there no similar Kurzick Assault Map?
Or...
Why was this map not made that you are randomly put into the attacker or the defender team?

It makes not much sense if we connect it to the PvE side where Gunther is there in Aspenwood telling us his story, but this could have been remedied.

Kurzicks are forever stuck in the defender role, and Luxons are eternal attackers.


There would still be "defenders are always at advantage" voices, but I remember a time where the Luxons 1.) won more often and 2.) did not have to wait for a bar to complete to gain full faction.



So well... I see no chance to significantly improve "balance" in this random arena. They would have to redesign the whole area.

And to please everyone, just mirror each NPC and position. Which would not be too exciting either.

Nothing beats advising Luxon monks to go Rayway. Don't keep the turtles alive, they're no real threat anyway.

I'm fairly certain that if the luxons started the turtles off, and then both teams went afk, the luxons would win. So really, by default, the luxons win, provided that you talk to two npcs at the start of the game.

But that isn't the default situation, is it?
By default, nothing happens. If nothing happens, the Kurzicks win. Therefore, by default, the Kurzicks win.

This isn't itself a problem really, as this is true of many other things in many other games. However the inherent nature of the balancing used makes it a problem.


Someone argued that the faction returns make winning and losing a rather moot point. That's largely true, until the Z Quests come in.
Altering the faction rewards isn't really a balancing solution. That's just being lazy (though I understand why that route was chosen).

I do. There was a time when no one played monks on kurz side. Then we all worked it out.

There you go with your theory and your monks. This is why I said there's no point in arguing with you. Again, it's not hard to win there as a luxon at all. If you can't do it then you or your team is no good. Yeah there were monks when I won there but like I said it's rare to see more than 1 monk in a kurzick team at any given time. Therefore it's not hard to win provided you don't suck.

This. A person speaking from real experience rather than what you've been spouting this whole time. This is why I believe that your theory is incorrect and will never happen (everyone rolls a monk on kurzick side? come on!)

EDIT: And for you people who point out that kurzick players can 'exploit the stupid AI'... how many times have you seen luxon players exploiting the stupid kurzick AI by abusing RoJ, luring the gatekeepers/gunther out of green into a mob of luxons, and forcing the juggernaut to be stuck between the hammer wars and the turtle all the time? Seriously, if there are exploits by players, it would be from the luxons. How many times have you seen kurzick players grieving with [Glyph of Sacrifice] + [Unyielding Aura] + [Heal Area]? Compare that to luxons coming in on kurzicks and spamming EoE + [Nature's Renewal] + [Muddy Terrain]? Or the more recent AotL MM saccers? Which side did you notice doing the exploiting more?

lux turtle had been buffed already with enchant remove and non-interuptable.
I dont know why people bringing such nonsense in a random player map and making drama with advantage in luxon
I suggest u join in the arena during the FA zquest event and see how suck the players are (both sides), see amazing builds while they dont give a shit of the map objective and just wanna find someone to kill with

Does that mean you'll stop?
Because:
You are bad at Aspy.
I can see that.
And I don't mean that in a way that you're unable to win there. I mean that in a way of being unable to grasp what is really going there outside of the the specific show that specific players with their specific builds put up while you are there. And there is nothing bad with that. It's just something you either can't or won't do. Don't feel bad about it.
The things you mostly bring up are either irrelevant, or I have already addressed them (and you aren't providing anything that counters them) or are just plain bad. I mean seriously - an imbalanced map as a way of countering grievers?
I am just waiting for you to mention that because the Kurzick need to wait longer to get in - they should also have better chances of wining.

Why not just give the Luxons their own massive weapon, and make them cycle like AB maps?

Luxons win more while defending, maps changes to FA.
Kurzicks win more while defending, maps changes to Luxon's fort.

How about this? Luxons and Kurzicks are dropped into the same pool. Then the random teams are drawn based off of that? Faction gain would still be dependent upon what sides. I probably would cry more about Defy Pain wammos on Kurzick, but at least they'd stall for the time they stay alive. Might be able to more evenly spread the retards amongst teams.

So just leave JQ alone and put FA into the AB rotation? I don't know about that one... About half the games I play Luxon win, the other half Kurzicks win. It depends on if the Luxon team plays together and if Kurzicks run amber. A lot of the time that Kurzick lose is because they are more focused on killing stuff then running amber, when we win, we run amber well. I have seen a few Luxon teams that work amazing together and blow through the Kurzicks. IMHO it seems pretty fair and should just be left alone. Just my opinion though.

I usually run a WoH monk in FA in order to heal the NPC's. Scourge is a nice way to cause damage to the Monk BUT any monk worth his beans will bring a hex removal. And most of the time no cover hexes are thrown on the NPC. Scourge+Cover Hexes would be a pretty good deterrent. Also putting pressure on the monk and the NPC also makes it easier. I have seen plenty of terribad Kurzick monks, one couldn't even heal an NPC by themselves and thought we should both be healing the same NPC (no turtles present). But without cover hexes for Scourge it is easily removed.

This could work if they change the siege turtles to for example 'captured siege turtle' when the Kurzicks attack the fort and the Juggernaut to for example 'converted or enchanted Juggernaut' when the luxons defend the fort.



This is much harder to make it work. There are a few problems that come to mind. People need to know what builds to bring as both sides need a different approach.
Faction gain needs to be set in front, even if you start on the opposite team or people will have problems with their faction bars.



So in both the ideas, players need to know what part of the fort they'll fight before the match actually starts. To be honest I don't think the place needs to be changed, it seems indeed fair. But I wouldn't mind as I know my act on both sides.

I still don't like that idea. In JQ, if Kurzicks win the get 3.5k Faction, in FA if they win they get 2.5k. I believe it is the same for Luxon just reversed (JQ=2.5k, FA=3.5k). This gives the faction gain balance between the two maps. Having a place that the Luxon can go to get 3.5k all the time balances out Kurzick's JQ 3.5k. While Luxon's don't win as easily at FA as Kurzicks do in JQ, it still evens out faction gain-wise. It would be neat to implement a different arena with that concept.

Upier - yeah I read your posts, I don't agree with them, and I think your arguments are flawed because you only look at things from your own point of view as a luxon, so there's no point in arguing with someone who won't bother to listen otherwise. FA is not as complicated as you try to make it seem. All the stuff that you talk about, as I said before, has little relevance because your theoretical scenarios will almost never happen. This is why I said you need a new argument on why you think kurzicks have the advantage, even though having played on both sides I can tell you that's largely not true. Like I said, it's much easier to win as a luxon than as a kurzick if you know what you're doing. One person can make a big difference.

And just because you see FA the way that you do (post 103), does not the principles of FA make. Yes some of it is true but again there is a lot of theory there that's just wrong. I know you love to argue about the arena alot, so I can't match your commitment in that sense, since I have better things to do than make really long posts about FA (you'll notice I almost never post here). And since you and I have such different views, we'll never reach an agreement, and I can't be bothered to keep checking this everyday. See you in FA on one side or another.

To be fair, Kurzicks do have somewhat of an advantage. The Luxons have to get through the players and their NPCs to just get past the inner gates. Then they have to get through more players and NPCs to get to Gunther. Then they have to take down 3 more NPCs along with the Kurzicks to win. It's easier to defend than it is to attack. Most of the time both the Kurzicks and the Luxons are equally as bad, but since the Kurzicks have a passive objective, they win more. If the Luxons know what they're doing, the Kurzicks are going to drop fast. Once they get the gates down and kill the few runners the Kurzicks have, they should be able to penetrate the base easily. Once they have Gunther's guardians down, they should be able to take him down easily.

The problem isn't the advantage or the objectives, it's the players. If both sides are bad, the Kurzicks are going to win. If the Luxons know what they're doing, they will most likely win. If both the teams are good and know what they're doing, it's going to be a good, close match.

Fort Aspenwood was designed to give the Kurzicks the upper hand. It's not going to change. If you're tired of it, go to JQ, which is a very equal map.

Actually I would say if both sides are GOOD, then kurzick is going to win, just because winning at luxons usually relies on a few key offense players like ROJ monks or SH eles to destroy the gates and mines fast....and good players can shutdown those characters to win easily (ranger interrupt from wall, healers, etc).

On the other hand if both sides are BAD, then luxon is going to win, because anyone with AoE spells can destroy the gates faster than any runner can repair, and all it takes is to press a few buttons. A bad kurzick team won't know how to distract them long enough and only worries about standing on the cliff trying to kill the turtle while the gates drops in less than a minute.

The only reason kurzick had been winning is because of rather good monks that act as a crutch for all the noob wammo that just go around dueling, and the complete lack of shutdown mesmer on luxon side. Basically kuzicks figured out a character suited for their side while luxon still haven't.

A major problem is still leeches(from the last time I played). You can't do much about the players, once an idiot, always an idiot, there are good Lux teams that can win, I have seen and play with/against them before. But usually the problem I see is the Lux team get to Gunther around anywhere from 40-80% completion, then the Kurz just heal-spike Gunther with the offensive attacking the eles(the real damage dealers) until time is up.

Well, looks like the thread can join the FA graveyard.

Once again people seem to think the issue is faction gain and the quality of players..despite numerous explanations to try and point out the actual issue.

/sigh

Maybe it's because we use the word 'balance'..and some people have trouble coming to terms with the fact that accepting it is unbalanced is (for many players) almost the same as saying "Yes I win at FA all the time! ..I'm Kurzick of course...so I guess I have the advantage..."

It's much easier to say luxon players are worse...or kurzicks are disadvantaged because they might need more that 1 monk..so all their victories have to be the result of 'excellent' play on their part.

Nvm, at least we got a few suggestions out - hopefully the necessary people will see this and contemplate a change.

you are funny
the actual issue is the quality of the players, not the map itself
anet had buffed the turtle already, when the buff was done before,
turtle got a long casting cannon time and people with any profession can interrupt it easily, making kurzick easy to win, that is imbalance
and from your "ideal drama" mentioned pages before, how bout a trapper of lux or few dmg dealing caster camping at the kurz only teleport spot?
imo i think your a funny luxon guy who just want all things setup good for luxon at the first place

That's the result of the Kurzick playing poorly.
And that's currently the only thing that is keeping the Luxon competitive.
The Luxon aren't competitive because of how good they are, they are competitive because of how bad the Kurzick are.

Like I said, the problem is that I actually don't see such a character existing in GW.

The stuff about Faction gain was based on an inter-related arguement about making FA where if Luxons win more then they play in Kurzick base and if Kurzick win more they play in Luxons Fort. It wasn't talking about the actual question.

2nd, yes player skill has everything to do with this. He was talking about the map being unbalanced blah blah blah. In reality it's not just the map but the players. Yes the map is a bit unbalanced, but it is suppose to be. That is why Kurzicks only get 2.5k (I know faction again!) and Luxon get 3.5k for winning. The harder it is for your team to win the more faction you get, so the faction shows that it is suppose to be unbalanced in the favor of the Kurzicks. Yet Luxons can win if they play as a smart team as pointed out before. If Luxon players actually played FA as a PvP game instead of as a PvE lololimadefytankwammo as pointed out before, they would increase their chances of winning because the Kurzicks teams are usually bad as well. If Kurzicks also played like smart, such as runners and healers instead of RoJ monks and all damage dealers, the matches would be much closer. All this does have to do with the issue of FA being unbalanced. FA is fine the way it is, players need to learn how to play the game instead of whining when stuff isn't as easy as PvE.

From what I have seen the Luxons are not loosing FA because of bad play but due to the large amount of leechers. If you don't think so switch to the luxon side and see how many accounts don't move until the timer counts down then watch where they run off to hide.

Same thing seem to be happening in the JQ but the side with the most leechers seems to be the Kurs.

And what if I tell you that:
* Kurzicks will receive 2500 faction total if they win, and Luxons will receive 1000 + (300 x the number of gates breached) if they win.
?

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fort_Aspenwood


And I would really like to hear of ONE SINGLE BUILD that does for the Luxon side what running a monk does for the Kurzick. And I am not joking here. I would seriously like to know. Because I totally willing to accept that I am mistaken and that there is a build that is able to compete against the best Kurzick teams. But once again - given the random nature of the map - this needs to be a player and NOT a team build.

If the luxons don't breach all the gates that's their own fault and they are bad at the game. And I could be mistaken about the JQ faction gain as well as I only play on Kurzick. (Just checked wiki and yes, each team in JQ gets 3.5k for the win so that throws the faction argument out). As it still stands though, almost always the Luxons break through all gates. ANet could go ahead and change it so that if Luxons when they get full faction no matter what. But as pointed out before Faction gain isn't the problem.

As for one single build, P-Block mesmer. Shuts down the healing monks fairly easily. I remember playing a game or two with a P-Block mesmer hampering me the whole time. We lost and I couldn't heal efficiently enough. IMO countering the 1 build that apparently tips the sides will re-tip them in luxon favor.

You've argued that because it's harder for Luxons to win - they should get more faction. The Luxons do not get more faction - which means they are just stuck with a more difficult way of wining.


I doubt I made myself clear.
What I want is a build where getting 8 of the builds in question on the Luxon side means they are able to compete with 8 monks on the Kurzick side.
I want a build that will be able to compete against the best of what the Kurzick have to offer.
So, a PB mesmer is what everyone on the Luxon side should run? You know, the way that everyone should run a monk on the Kurzick side if they want to run the best option.

You clearly need a better aspect on "the best build" for Kurzick. If you ran 8 monks on Kurzick, 8 Luxon P-Block mesmers would be able to shut them down with the Turtles and Warriors. But that is not at all the best option nor is it a smart one. An 8 monk Kurzick side would be terrible. While yes their healing would be great, spikes could still take down NPC's if the monks aren't that good (which usually they aren't). For Kurzicks it would be better to have 2 or 3 healing monks and some runners for amber. If a gate is broken in an all monk team there would be major problems. With no damage and no ability to repair they would eventually be beat if the Luxons could put up pressure. It's a team game where a homogeneous team will lose. Diversity in this case is the best team strategies.

Just complete the zQuest on Kurzick side. Problem solved. There's no way to balance FA without ridiculing either side; too much damage has been done to its format all these years with the introduction of OP skills.

...huh?

You're going to have to explain yourself more clearly if you actually expect a reply.

From the one part of your post I do understand however, I can tell you that I am Kurzick - I maxed my Luxon title long ago and have no intention of specifically persuing the Kurzick title. I am happy to play FA from whichever side I enjoy the most - so I guess that trashes the rest of what you said.

Player Skill

In terms of 'balancing' the map - player skill means nothing.

I mean come on....get with the real issue. I don't know why everone is getting all pissed off like I'm being biased or something. It just so happens that Luxons are at the disadvantage. Factions are Srs Bsns I know but...I just like the map and would like to see it equal for both sides.

What people are failing to understand, and as Upier is also trying to point out - assuming both sides are playing to WIN - and given the random formation of the teams, it is always going to be much more difficult for the Luxons to win because playing from the Luxon side requires so much more in order to achieve victory.

You can't choose your team. Therefore an individual player on the Luxon side needs to be able to achieve the same that one monk can achieve for the Kurzicks. (Again you are assuming Monk because this is the easiest way for the Kurzicks to WIN, and this is what you assume players are hoping to achieve when you think 'balance' in this kind of format)

In this sense, the map is not balanced. There is no one build that a Luxon can run in order to compensate for the builds the other randomly assigned players will be running, and still hope to achieve victory.

As a Kurzick, paired with the superior NPCs (Seriously, dont even start with the whole 'Zomg Lux got Turtles' shiz), a single monk has a very strong chance of securing victory. Granted, a lesser skilled monk may have a harder time of it - but the monk skills alone, be they 'Red-bar' or Prot, can significantly hinder, if not prevent, a Luxon victory.

At the end of the day, if Gunther isn't dead, Luxons lose. It doesnt matter what else goes on.

This is why it comes down to luck - which is clearly not 'balance'.

The Luxons need to get more Lucky. They need to get the assortment of builds that can successfully combat a team of Kurzicks that are playing to win.

One Monk assigned a random Kurzick team still stands a great chance of winning vs a random Luxon team.

There is no one Luxon build that, when paired with it's randomly assigned allies, is going to be able to carry them to victory.

If there is, and I've missed it - please post.

EDIT: Just to be clear - 'Player Skill' and 'Player Builds' are not the same thing.

I know better players will use and bring better skills - but you can't balance a map assuming that both teams are going to get crap players - and that the Kurzick crap players will some how compensate for the imbalance the Luxons currently have - even if that is the reality.

Its a matter of thinking 'what can a team of the best randomly assigned players who are playing to win bring versus another team of the best randomly assigned players who are also playing to win

~ after which, you have to consider the odds of either team winning given the format and the goals they have to achieve

Kurzicks do have the upper hand, yes. But the map was designed that way. Stop trying to make it look like player skill has nothing to do with why the Luxons don't win a lot, because it's a huge factor.

Just played 5 games (won 5) on the kurzick side and 5 games (won 3) on the luxon side with the same healing build. This isn't representative, but the last game I won as Luxon was remarkable as we had 4 monks. People started to whine that there would not be enough DPS. One of our monks is a ray monk so I tell the other two to protect the right turtle while I would take care of the left turtle. The groups were kinda forced to progress at the same paste as the turtles. The two groups (turtles still alive) linked up in front of the inner gate at almost the same moment. The Kurzicks had two monks, but they lost the game. I didn't see any enemy ray on one of the turtles so I suspect those monks were playing defensively.

I lost 2 Luxon games because I was the only monk and people were not playing coop. How am I suppose to take care of 2 turtles, x warriors and 7 other people who run of in different directions and what not. One turtle reached the inner fort but in both those games I was spotted and they heavely focused on me, while most of my teammates were somewhere outside. They certainly were not in the fort.

Player skill has a lot to do with it.

When people are running amber - gates need to be opened. Why would you do that when one is safe on the other side?

Aegis chains would prevent attack and spell damage. Now, I am not sure if Aegis also causes the turtle attack to fail, but if it doesn't, a simple PS+SB would negate all damage from that (with some cover up enches of course!). Now just imagine massive overhealing and massive overprotting IF Aegis would happen to go down. And once one runs out of energy - one uses the teleport and suicides in the middle of the Luxons. 6 secs later - one is back behind the door with full energy.
Given the fact that 2 to 3 monks are able to keep a party of 8 alive - unless the monks really really really suck - it shouldn't be an issue.
Make a few steps back and the Luxon casters can't even reach you. And then just make a few steps forward to cast that 1/4 sec skill. Hell, people could switch to Glimmer instead of WoH. No way in hell you can do something about that.

I really don't get where does the idea that monks are so insanely weak come from?


Anyone up for syncing Kurz Aspy and testing out a full monk party? (Or at least as close as we can get.)


If one is just after the coins, that's a very good idea. Still you can't really play if everyone goes Kurzick.


EDIT:
The question is - what did the rest of your party do on the games you won as a Kurzick? Were your party members deserving of the victory or did you primarily won because of you going monk?
That's the issue.
Given how the map is designed - a few Kurzick monks can make up for the rest of their shitty team. There is no build on the Luxon side that is able to do the same.

The problem isn't losing when the team is bad.
The problem is NOT losing when the team is bad.

Player skill is a factor on both sides. So there really is no need to take it into account. Or are you saying that IF a player goes Kurzick that makes them automatically better at the game? Bad players should lose regardless of the side they are on!
The problem that we are trying to bring up is the problem I have bolded in your post. The map shouldn't be designed that way.

not to insult your game play Gun, but the kurz only had two monks. Most often then not, they have more. I've also never seen 4 monks on the luxon side at once. Maybe its all a matter of luck.

The new turtle buffs make it alot harder to heal the NPC's. They do a ton of damage and strip enchants. If you have people already attacking the NPC that you are healing and they are at 85% health or below, a turtle shot will kill them unless you are amazing at catching spikes. So as long as they have the turtles no Aegis chain. Enchant removed.

Monk steps back out of enemy range, they are out of healing range since the NPCs are not right next to the door like the player can be. Not being able to heal the NPC means the gate is breached.

Amber needs to be run. It is pretty much a must. Since the turtles have been buffed it makes it a little harder for Kurzicks just to hold out.

^Oh but turtles like to go after anybody who deals damage to it regardless of its magnitude. So you can have a ranger Mel Shot it and the turtle will go for the ranger. In fact I have been using the same strategy to divert the attention of the turtles. So you can have 2 turtles in front of Gunther but Gunther ain't dying because the turtles are busy shooting some other people.