Plenty of other games announce the changes to be made prior to releasing the actual update. They don't just randomly surprise people. Why doesn't Anet do this?
If it has something to do with pvp then that's crap. As long as everyone has access to the notes there's not "unfair advantage" gained by releasing them ahead of time. Or is the problem that they do everything last-minute and don't have notes to release?
Why cant they announce changes before the actual update?
Back then
Roy_
The way I see it:
PvP, not for the reasons you stated, but because it gives less time to adapt to new builds.
PvE, for the lulz
PvP, not for the reasons you stated, but because it gives less time to adapt to new builds.
PvE, for the lulz
Nodakim
Helix Dreadlock
They already do
MMSDome
TWO WORDS
They like to keep us guessing!
They like to keep us guessing!
FoxBat
He means the regular balance changes. Those are rarely officially displayed before the patch; usually they come an hour after.
My guess is so that they don't have people bitching and whining about numbers on a page when they can't see how it actually works yet. E.G. response to rodgort's "nerf" to 8s recharge. Also because they don't want to be writing about features/changes that might get removed at the last minute when the testing doesn't go well for them.
My guess is so that they don't have people bitching and whining about numbers on a page when they can't see how it actually works yet. E.G. response to rodgort's "nerf" to 8s recharge. Also because they don't want to be writing about features/changes that might get removed at the last minute when the testing doesn't go well for them.
Nodakim
At the beggining each month they write their opinions on the skill that are gonna be changed and when big updates come,they always say it on Discussion/talk pages on Teh Official Guild Wars Wiki.
gremlin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by FoxBat
He means the regular balance changes. Those are rarely officially displayed before the patch; usually they come an hour after.
My guess is so that they don't have people bitching and whining about numbers on a page when they can't see how it actually works yet. E.G. response to rodgort's "nerf" to 8s recharge. Also because they don't want to be writing about features/changes that might get removed at the last minute when the testing doesn't go well for them. |
That's my guess too
We would get a list of proposed changes then a delay while they worked on it then the usual release with patch notes to show the final changes.
There would then be a double moan one for the changes and one for the but you told us it would be x and now its y.
and is it all that important to know in advance ? don't take it so seriously.
Brett Kuntz
Releasing changes early has no pro's and a laundry list of con's.
lewis91
The way i see it is, even if you still see a bad change before it happens, you're gonna get pissed and QQ. So might aswell not tell you so you QQ for less amount of time.
And i don't mean YOU personally, i mean you - the people.
And i don't mean YOU personally, i mean you - the people.
bel unbreakable
dont they have some sort of forum to talk about skill and balance changes with the pvp guys
![[DE]](/static/static/../Img/avatar38220_14.gif){kind=avatar}
[DE]
Releasing notes early only promotes terrible, terrible theorycrafting. As everyone should know by now.. theorycrafting hardly ever works the way you'd expect once in-game.
HawkofStorms
A lot of games updates are a lot bigger and benefit more from player feedback and testing on a test server for several weeks prior to release. Ie, WARs skill balances are often around 20 pages worth of notes alone. It's a lot easier to forsee the impact when you are only adjusting a few skills.
That and theorycrafting by people on forums who don't know what they are talking about isn't helpful anyways. It just leads to conversations along the lines of "dear a.net, please nerf rock, paper is fine, -signed scissors."
That and theorycrafting by people on forums who don't know what they are talking about isn't helpful anyways. It just leads to conversations along the lines of "dear a.net, please nerf rock, paper is fine, -signed scissors."
Lishy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nodakim
At the beggining each month they write their opinions on the skill that are gonna be changed and when big updates come,they always say it on Discussion/talk pages on Teh Official Guild Wars Wiki.
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MithranArkanere
The announce stuff only when they have it for sure...
They learned that after announcing some things that never came to be.
They learned that after announcing some things that never came to be.
Cale Roughstar
Quote:
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
The announce stuff only when they have it for sure...
They learned that after announcing some things that never came to be. |
Having to wait upwards of an hour to find a list is just stupid. You can either tell us, or we will spend that hour clicking on every skill at the Bathazar rewards dude.
boko
The reason would be probably to avoid unecessary QQ...
Imagine what would have happened if they announced something that would in general alienate the people whether it be PvE or PvP...
e.g :
"Hello we are going to add lootscaling next month. Enjoy!"
or "Hello! we are going to reduce the effect of SR next month enjoy!"
or "We are going to add items related to tourny points, and they will be one time buy instead of account unlock! Enjoy!"
Now, imagine the what's gonna happen. Prediction : The community is gonna moan and bit*h that it's a bad idea and write their discontent over forums and even make polls with some threatening to quit... but when the change actually happen, half realise that the change was not that bad and that there are loopholes around them, while the half of the remaing population, decide that they can live with it and the last bunch of resistance, don't even try em and decide it's the end of the world...
In most cases, these end up being useless rants. The rants that are actually useful are those that are made after being tested, and by "tested", it means to actually try the new mechanics and not making theories about how it will work and believing that's how it will work without having tried the changes...
Imagine what would have happened if they announced something that would in general alienate the people whether it be PvE or PvP...
e.g :
"Hello we are going to add lootscaling next month. Enjoy!"
or "Hello! we are going to reduce the effect of SR next month enjoy!"
or "We are going to add items related to tourny points, and they will be one time buy instead of account unlock! Enjoy!"
Now, imagine the what's gonna happen. Prediction : The community is gonna moan and bit*h that it's a bad idea and write their discontent over forums and even make polls with some threatening to quit... but when the change actually happen, half realise that the change was not that bad and that there are loopholes around them, while the half of the remaing population, decide that they can live with it and the last bunch of resistance, don't even try em and decide it's the end of the world...
In most cases, these end up being useless rants. The rants that are actually useful are those that are made after being tested, and by "tested", it means to actually try the new mechanics and not making theories about how it will work and believing that's how it will work without having tried the changes...
zwei2stein
Imagine if anet said they are gonna remove hod sword from crafters one week before they did.
Rocky Raccoon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cale Roughstar
That doesn't really come into play when it is half an hour before the skill balance goes live. As it is now, if your group is doing some PvP and the skill balance comes up you inevitably spend the next two hours waiting on the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing update notes. Nobody wants to do anything until they are fully aware of what new things are out there.
Having to wait upwards of an hour to find a list is just stupid. You can either tell us, or we will spend that hour clicking on every skill at the Bathazar rewards dude. |
Lishy
two words
Viral Hyping
Viral Hyping
Monk of Myst
The way I see it and please note that I am not bashing anyone particularly:
Let's face it, we have a ton of whiny, spoiled brats playing this game. Can anyone else just hear what would happen if they did and they change it last second because someone realizes that the update won't work as well as they wanted it to?
Player 1: Wah! I just changed my whole build for nothing! Give me a break! STUPID A-NET! I'm going to find Gaile and cry and complain!
Player 2: WHAT? <insert skill here> was not changed?!?! WTF?!? A-Net, you're stupid! I'm going to write you guys nasty emails until I get my way!
Let's look at what would happen if we didn't like the updates (please refer to other various threads when the players don't like the updates). Then we all get annoyed and then we, the community, think that we can chamge their minds.
I can see this happening here and I can see it happening in game. If they want to avoid getting stupid players from sending them pissy mail and annoying them in game, then not telling anyone is the way to go.
Let's face it, we have a ton of whiny, spoiled brats playing this game. Can anyone else just hear what would happen if they did and they change it last second because someone realizes that the update won't work as well as they wanted it to?
Player 1: Wah! I just changed my whole build for nothing! Give me a break! STUPID A-NET! I'm going to find Gaile and cry and complain!
Player 2: WHAT? <insert skill here> was not changed?!?! WTF?!? A-Net, you're stupid! I'm going to write you guys nasty emails until I get my way!
Let's look at what would happen if we didn't like the updates (please refer to other various threads when the players don't like the updates). Then we all get annoyed and then we, the community, think that we can chamge their minds.
I can see this happening here and I can see it happening in game. If they want to avoid getting stupid players from sending them pissy mail and annoying them in game, then not telling anyone is the way to go.
Cale Roughstar
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Risky Ranger
Why can't you just keep playing and see what happens? If no one knows the changes there is no advantage until by investigation (playing). If Pvp people are so afraid of losing, then it has become more than just a fun game. Just my opinion.
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What I am advocating is not that we should have the update notes weeks in advance, but at the very least they should be released at the same time as the update. Do they still have to type it up or something? Once the update is in place, the notes should be there.
DreamWind
Because they probably don't even know the skill updates themselves until the day before they are released.
Lonesamurai
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DreamWind
Because they probably don't even know the skill updates themselves until the day before they are released.
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Massive Impulsa
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lonesamurai
actually they do and the last few months they have been leaked by skill testers using different names from Izzy's skill balance forum
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lol he was sarcastic^^
Back then
You guys are victims of neglect and silence and can't seem to understand how communication works...
Everyone is saying "well then if X changes everyone will QQ", which may be true, but there's no reason they can't just update the notes.... if they decide not to make a certain change, then just say so ahead of time. Why is that so incomprehensible?
Everyone is saying "well then if X changes everyone will QQ", which may be true, but there's no reason they can't just update the notes.... if they decide not to make a certain change, then just say so ahead of time. Why is that so incomprehensible?
Arduin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Back then
if they decide not to make a certain change, then just say so ahead of time. Why is that so incomprehensible?
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snaek
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dreamwind
Because they probably don't even know the skill updates themselves until the day before they are released.
Quote:
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what i do find hilarious is how last month, they gave us the developer notes for the skill balance a week after the actual update (or was it 2?). its like they made random changes, and then spent a week to come up wit bs to justify their decisions.
Wish Swiftdeath
Thats why it might actually help them make better updates.
On the other hand it will probably lead to a delayed update because looking at their skill balances, a short set of notes will take at least a week to do.
On the other hand it will probably lead to a delayed update because looking at their skill balances, a short set of notes will take at least a week to do.
Regina Buenaobra
Hopefully I can explain this in an understandable way, but if it's unclear, please let me know and I'll do my best to clarify. 
Game development is a continuous process. This means things can change from week-to-week or even day-to-day. So if we release a tentative set of update notes, and some of that doesn't get released or changes significantly, many players will feel upset about it. No matter how many disclaimers you put, letting folks know that items are subject to change -- many people either forget it, or this fact that things are change-able becomes much less important in the mind of the player than the actual features that might be changed. Publishing changes before features are set in stone creates certain expectations that those changes _will_ happen. When a company person makes an comment that we _might_ take a look at something if there is time, this filters through the community, word gets passed on second and third and fourth hand, rumors start, and then the statement becomes interpreted as "We will definitely look at it and change it". And then when that doesn't happen, people get upset. We've seen from past experience is that it is better to hold off on details until features are either close to final or completely final.
I hope that's understandable and gives you a bit of an insight about one of the reasons why we may not release information before an update is released. ^^
Of course, I will take your views here to the dev team -- about the desire to see patch notes prior to a game update.
Game development is a continuous process. This means things can change from week-to-week or even day-to-day. So if we release a tentative set of update notes, and some of that doesn't get released or changes significantly, many players will feel upset about it. No matter how many disclaimers you put, letting folks know that items are subject to change -- many people either forget it, or this fact that things are change-able becomes much less important in the mind of the player than the actual features that might be changed. Publishing changes before features are set in stone creates certain expectations that those changes _will_ happen. When a company person makes an comment that we _might_ take a look at something if there is time, this filters through the community, word gets passed on second and third and fourth hand, rumors start, and then the statement becomes interpreted as "We will definitely look at it and change it". And then when that doesn't happen, people get upset. We've seen from past experience is that it is better to hold off on details until features are either close to final or completely final.
I hope that's understandable and gives you a bit of an insight about one of the reasons why we may not release information before an update is released. ^^
Of course, I will take your views here to the dev team -- about the desire to see patch notes prior to a game update.
Back then
its just that in other games i've played, developers would release information weeks ahead of time, and if players wanted to give feed back or discuss it amongst themselves the could. I always saw that as a healthy thing, even if there is a tone of "whinyness".
I know the players are not a active part of development, but if a certain change announced is really unpopular, then it gives devs a chance to re-consider it before it's final. I wouldn't even mind updates being delayed if I knew what they were going to be ahead of time. I think the worst thing of all is when everyone is speculating about an update, getting their hopes up, then being dissapointed if something wasn't changed like they hoped. This wouldn't happen if we knew ahead of time.
but thank you for responding Regina.
I know the players are not a active part of development, but if a certain change announced is really unpopular, then it gives devs a chance to re-consider it before it's final. I wouldn't even mind updates being delayed if I knew what they were going to be ahead of time. I think the worst thing of all is when everyone is speculating about an update, getting their hopes up, then being dissapointed if something wasn't changed like they hoped. This wouldn't happen if we knew ahead of time.
but thank you for responding Regina.
Avarre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra
Hopefully I can explain this in an understandable way, but if it's unclear, please let me know and I'll do my best to clarify.
Game development is a continuous process. This means things can change from week-to-week or even day-to-day. So if we release a tentative set of update notes, and some of that doesn't get released or changes significantly, many players will feel upset about it. No matter how many disclaimers you put, letting folks know that items are subject to change -- many people either forget it, or this fact that things are change-able becomes much less important in the mind of the player than the actual features that might be changed. Publishing changes before features are set in stone creates certain expectations that those changes _will_ happen. When a company person makes an comment that we _might_ take a look at something if there is time, this filters through the community, word gets passed on second and third and fourth hand, rumors start, and then the statement becomes interpreted as "We will definitely look at it and change it". And then when that doesn't happen, people get upset. We've seen from past experience is that it is better to hold off on details until features are either close to final or completely final. I hope that's understandable and gives you a bit of an insight about one of the reasons why we may not release information before an update is released. ^^ Of course, I will take your views here to the dev team -- about the desire to see patch notes prior to a game update. |
Brett Kuntz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Avarre
If development can change day-to-day, why do certain issues take massive periods of time to be addressed?
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R.Shayne
I have to agree with Back Then, I played WoW for 3 months while waiting for the massive Guild Wars update that came during April. During that 3 months they had patch notes out long before the patch went live. One thing was enchanting profession was going to get changed so it did not use so many resources to level up, reading this I held off on leveling enchanting and probably saved thousands in gold.
A.Net has never been open and never will be open (no matter what they say) as for the reason I have no clue. Will someone get upset about up coming changes, sure, will it make any difference if they know a week ahead, not really they are still going to cry. If they fail to deliver on something is someone going to cry about, sure, but I believe the customers would understand if something has to be pushed back (Blizzard customers seemed to be very understanding when equipment manager was pushed back because it was not ready).
I am sorry but A.Net seems to treat the customer very different, might be the business model (they have your money already) but longevity of a game depends on happy customers so A.Net just seems to be a different type of company.
A.Net has never been open and never will be open (no matter what they say) as for the reason I have no clue. Will someone get upset about up coming changes, sure, will it make any difference if they know a week ahead, not really they are still going to cry. If they fail to deliver on something is someone going to cry about, sure, but I believe the customers would understand if something has to be pushed back (Blizzard customers seemed to be very understanding when equipment manager was pushed back because it was not ready).
I am sorry but A.Net seems to treat the customer very different, might be the business model (they have your money already) but longevity of a game depends on happy customers so A.Net just seems to be a different type of company.
Regina Buenaobra
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Back then
its just that in other games i've played, developers would release information weeks ahead of time, and if players wanted to give feed back or discuss it amongst themselves the could. I always saw that as a healthy thing, even if there is a tone of "whinyness".
I know the players are not a active part of development, but if a certain change announced is really unpopular, then it gives devs a chance to re-consider it before it's final. I wouldn't even mind updates being delayed if I knew what they were going to be ahead of time. I think the worst thing of all is when everyone is speculating about an update, getting their hopes up, then being dissapointed if something wasn't changed like they hoped. This wouldn't happen if we knew ahead of time. but thank you for responding Regina. |
On your point, about players getting their hopes up... There's a quote that I recall about this very thing. I forgot who said it, but it goes something like: The imagination and hopes of the player often go far beyond what a game developer can achieve in a given period of time with a given set of resources.
---
I continue to read this thread with interest. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and opinions.
Lonesamurai
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra
I continue to read this thread with interest. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and opinions. |
surely this is gaming time instead?
slowerpoke
does it really matter what us peons think?
drunknzelda
I don't really care if the notes are here before the update, I find it fun to brainstorm with my guild as to what we have to run now. I also enjoy reading them on friday morning after work, but I agree that it's better to release the notes at the same time as the patch, don't see why it should take an hour ^^
I'm just glad if it fixes the current meta problems, that's way more important than releasing them early..
I'm just glad if it fixes the current meta problems, that's way more important than releasing them early..
zwei2stein
Quote:
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Originally Posted by R.Shayne
I have to agree with Back Then, I played WoW for 3 months while waiting for the massive Guild Wars update that came during April. During that 3 months they had patch notes out long before the patch went live. One thing was enchanting profession was going to get changed so it did not use so many resources to level up, reading this I held off on leveling enchanting and probably saved thousands in gold.
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Crafting professions in WoW are quite a commitment. It is hard to drop 'nerfed' crafting class and pick 'meta' one. Takes time and resources.
Releasing info on chances to them as early as possible is important way to prevent QQ. People need time to prepare for change. Ditto with class changes ... someone leveling alt of class X will want to know if it is still gonna be 'meta' once he reaches max level because it actually takes nontrivial amount of time. If he learns that he will waste time leveling his X, he will actually thank devs for letting him know.
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Luckily, GW lacks this kind of high commitment.
Farmer (closest thing to crafter from traditional mmo) is easy to replace immediatelly (if you have leveled class) or in space of few hours (including reaching farming spot).
Unless you react is over the top hysteric way and delete 'useless' character right away, update will not hurt you.
No change truly crippled character in normal PvE gameplay yet, regardless of qq threads anyone can still reach their 30 GWAMM.
Now, there are things that are nice to know (for example, if I knew about party title one week earlier, I would not trash 1000 points worth of consumables to save storage space) but are not needed.
Brett Kuntz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by R.Shayne
I have to agree with Back Then, I played WoW for 3 months while waiting for the massive Guild Wars update that came during April. During that 3 months they had patch notes out long before the patch went live.
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There have been lots of times where Izzy came up with some changes (Skill or GvG Maps) on Vent, we tested them out one night, and they're patched into the game the next day. At this point GW may only release a patch every month or whatever the frequency is, but it's not because it takes them a month to make them, just because the game is old and there really isn't anything to patch anymore.
The best skill balance update for GW1 is GW2.