Update - Thursday, June 11

holy crap.. now this I really didn't think I'd ever see from the PvP side of Guild Wars. Throughout the game's history any time something is changed on the PvE side of the game and players become upset much of the PvP side has chided them for not being able to accept any kind of change..

heh, welcome to unwanted change. I'm guessing a few of the PvP players aren't as welcome to unwanted change as they seemed to be. That's exactly what people called whining when it happened on the PvE side of the house.

a word of advice, adapt and overcome - change is good for you.. maybe they'll surprise you with an update.

my guess is the non-scrubs on the PvP side probably aren't complaining and are probably even adapting to not having the regularly scheduled skill balance. Another guess is that even if the skill balance happens near the end of this month's automated tourney, the good PvPers will still have adapted to the situation as they always have in the past.. just a guess though.

btw, I don't mean this as any kind of attack towards you. You just provided a good quote in relation to the subject at hand for people to take into context.

PvE Side: the expected norm is no change, a change to the content throws some people out of shape

PvP Side: the expected norm is a fairly consistenty scheduled skill shakeup, a change to the schedule throws some people out of shape

guess there's no win for ANet after all...

let's clear this one up

What is it you are actually trying to say Regina? your dev's said the content updates would be released every 3-4 months, so by definition is the content was released in APRIL then the next update IS due before the end of August.

your post says that no one mentioned quarterly and that the community perceived quarterly updates, then you begin to talk about perceived as missed the first quarter.

I along with a lot of others took 3-4 months to be 3-4 months... nothing else, howveer gien the statement in the first quote we would assume that as
"We want players to feel connected to what we are developing even though it may be months away from release, so during development we will be more open about our process and what we are working on." that some information would be released and being discussed by now, strange that we are 1-2 months away for the supposedly guaranteed content update and not one word has been mentioned about it.

so...

Yet again we come back to the problem of the past 12+months communication the communication from A-net to is community/playerbase is extraordinarily poor for a company who's business actually relies on the playerbase having a clue what is going on to retain its faith in the company and its interest in its product.

after reading regina's replies and martin's to earlier posts I can only conclude that nothing is likely to change, they both ignored the majority of the content and provided comments on the more trivial matters.

let's also clear one thing up 100% as it is a comment that has stuck in my craw since I read it...

Martin & Regina, please read this, take heed and pass this back to whomever you report to

COMMUNITY

this is not as clearly defined as your playerbase, it is dfined as the core of players whom care about the game enough to register to fansites and forums to discuss aspects of the game.

these are the people that CR team should be paying attention to as these are the people that post problems, feedback, queries, bugs, exploits etc...

not just on this site but on other sites and as has been mentioned a few times, the comments made here have been made at a number of other sites, yet you both seem to sit in this bubble of ignorance unaware of the issues raised.

When players are commenting on BASIC problems such as skills that actually break the game mechanic to the point of being an exploit and have been talking about these for over 6 months with near zero feedback from devs or CR it points out the biggest flaws in a-net, these are simply comunication and priority as a company you lack greatly in both areas.

Despite what I wrote at the top of the post (which was more to point out a-nets woeful and contradictory communication) I would willing do without content until next year on the proviso that all efforts were made to actually rebalance the game as a whole rather than the half-assed attempts of the past 12months+ no just PvE but PvP also.

I would think with the releases of your parent company around the corner, blizzards releases coming soon that your company would be 100% commited to trying to retain is existing playerbase for your new product, if this is your goal then you are going a very strange way about it as faith in a-net by the community as a whole (not just here) is just about at an all-time low.

I think the problem lies in the fact that as a business, it is really hard to get things done because there are so many people involved, so much stuff to do (much of it not actually involving content or balance, but bugs and fixing bugs in stuff that is not yet implemented).

Let's assume that the guys who actually give us the updates want to do more PvE balancing, because they realize SF is horribly, horribly broken and makes general PvE a joke. So, they're getting ready to fix it, and their boss comes looking over their shoulder and says "why are you wasting your time doing that? No one cares about that. What they care about are more content updates!"

"Well, actually, the players on this forum and this forum and..."

"They only represent one portion of the community. Trust me. Now get back to work on that new pokemon center. People will use pets more if we make that."

And SF remains broken.

Or, what if one person along the chain of bureaucracy doesn't like the proposed change? To continue the SF example:

"Wait, you want to nerf SF? Didn't we already do that?"

"Yeah, but it's still not enough. We didn't address the real problem; it's maintainability. The game is still a cakewalk because nothing can kill you."

"But you're doing less damage! You're giving something up for that invulnerability! And touch skills can still hurt you."

"How many monsters have touch skills?"

And it goes on and on.

And this is just the stuff I can come up with off the top of my head. I don't think it's right to expect Anet to be able to update as smoothly as a single person with sufficient knowledge of the source code would be able to, because Anet is not one person; it is a business, and businesses are slow. I do think, however, that it isn't an excuse for them to not at least try to do the things that need to be done.

They took down the decorations, no more keg farming , coin rewards nerfed in HB YAY YAHOO YABA DABA DOOOOOOO now this is my kinda update. Welp go find yourself another place to exploit the game FARMERS...keg farming is now officially dead and ROJ is next and hopefully ShadowForm as well since they nerfed the hell out of Dervish FORMS then Shadowform should be next with a 120 sec cooldown period.

A Warrior can dream...

I completely agree 100%, nothing more nothing less. To add to this...

first arenanet pushes April's skill balance back a month... then they push it back a week, then they push it back another week... to my accurate knowledge, skill updates come out the 1st-2nd thursday of every month... to tell us one thing and do another with such late notice is one thing.. but to do this exact process 3 times in a row is beyond frustrating. Anet has a way of convincing the community and telling them that updates will happen not this week but next... yes.. next.. then it doesn't happen...then the loop plays on and on. Regardless of how game companies are likes this, there is no justification when you say one thing and do another with late notice many many times. I have been playing gws just after the beta and I am so done with this lack of communication, these late notices, and contradictory statements. I am not feeling more connected to what arenanet is doing with these 3-4 month content updates since i don't get jack on news of the update, and now I'm not getting jack on skill updates with late notices, i'm feeling more disconnected.

Oh and thanks Regina for the contradictory statement.

Guys don't you get it? It can happen any time during the 3-4 months.

April was our last content update therfore that means the next one can be any time between April and August. We can't complain because that is actually what was said from the start and we are just being impatient! The game works as it is, just play it and stop complaining. Afterall the Live Team have lots of work to do because even a minor change takes a hell of alot of time to incorporate into the game as the game is so big.

I am going to get flamed for this I know, but I think you should all take a step back and look at the brilliant game we have already.

...Whoa so let me get this straight....



You nerf'd Keg farming yet didn't touch shadow form...



...Does the Anet team even play this game?

I was indeed questioning the definition of "the community" in this case, after Martin replied to another poster that Guru isn't the community and that this poster's isn't speaking for what he calls "the community".

The problem here is that it is pretty much impossible to define what the entire "community" really is. How big is it? What forums other than guru belong to it? One can't possibly name everyone who is part of it. As a result, it's also nearly impossible to define what "the community" wants. All we really know about what the community is, is that it's people who play Guild Wars and the only visible aspect of it comes to forums like these.

As a result, saying that Guru is just part of the one big Guild Wars community is not well defined as it's impossible to define all the people that are part of the community. If we reject the idea that the community as a whole can be defined, then that only leaves us with fragments of what we ourselves can observe as part of the community. Therefore, any part of the undefinable total community, is in fact the community.

The way I wrote my earlier post was also a sign indeed that every part of the community indeed has just as much right to be part of the community, and therefore the statement "You are not the community" is in my opinion false. I am the community just as much as you are. Nobody is the center of it of course, however, we are all just as much (part of) the community.

Finally, about the bold text parts, those were because in Martin's original post he bolded the community multiple times to make his point, so I thought i'd do the same to make mine

I think we're pretty much on the same page, it's however hard/impossible to define "the community".

Regards,

Meridon

I have to say I find that the customer relations team come across as very aggressive.

Yes, we appreciate that delays can happen in a game of this size but surely to come on here and say we are not important is crazy. I am sure to the CR team the posters on this forum come across as impatient brats who know nothing about what's involved in the update process, but that is not the point.

We are your customers and you are supposed to "relate" to us. If Anet mess up, as they have, come here, apologise and explain, do not insult us.

Well, from their perspective, we have already purchased the game, the game is free to play. They dont have to placate us anymore as GW is being run by a skeleton crew till GW2 comes out (*cough*vaporware*cough*), so their attitude is perfectly understandable, if not preferable.

It doesn't exactly help that they rarely come to say something without being provoked by a large majority of pissed of players.

Its like prot, they could (pre-prot) come here when there clearly will be a problem, like the delayed update, and at least warn people. Or they do it completely wrong and come here AFTER the damage has been done and end up having to work twice as hard to calm people down. Course its been happening so much recently the community is getting sick of the bullcrap excuses.

Hope Anet makes the smart decision about 'fixing' RoJ by balancing the Bombers too, because as soon as RoJ changes, Bombers will be back in full force. It's no fun babysitting a shrine to stop one Bomber. Not getting my hopes up though.

Agreed. In fact, for the last 6 months a.net's PR team has been VERY laid back, and basically taken all the crap in stride (from the GW2 is vaporwear crowd, to the same 8-10 people who complain about where is my skill balance every month ((because even after there is a skill balance, its never good enough for these people)). Their behavior in this thread is a complete 180.
I'm glad to see them stand up behind their product again rather then let those negative people take over the hearts and minds of their consumers. They are on damage control, trying to make people listen to them instead of some 16 year-olds who have too much angst over a video game.

Martin never said that Guru is not part of the community, he only said the Guru is not the whole community, meaning that this is not the only source of feedback for them. Yet, people seem inclined to say he said that Guru is unimportant.

Yes, because that is what the community(not just Guru) was clamoring for. Or did you miss all those threads complaining about kegs? They were there, seriously. The folks complaining about Shadowform are a very small vocal minority. You may not have been paying attention, but ANet was!

I don't think you should change Shadow Form again, but skills used very much in UWSC and FOWSC, like Sliver Armor or Ebon Battle Standard of Honor?

I'm sure ANet is on the case. Have a little faith will you?

Guess we can take the Vaettirs of the endangered species list
Poor Raptors - they will be massacred in even larger numbers (again) now.

Solo farm is still mostly for sins, but the pace have been slowed a little. *shrugs* - whatever!

First off, I'm kinda curious how you know how much he's spent on the game since you're fairly confident that you've spent more. That whole part of your response smacks of elitist b*****t.

Secondly, it doesn't matter if you bought one campaign cheap for $10 or you own the whole set and have spent money to buy pet packs, skill packs, etc - you're not entitled to anything beyond what ever it was you spent your money specifically on. You spent that extra money of your own volition. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think ANet had something in the fine print that says "If you spend X amount of dollars on this game we promise to always release skill updates the 1st or 2nd Thursday of the month and we promise to always fix the problems you want fixed, etc".

I like playing the game, and I'm happy when they update and give us newer things to do or do a skills update, even when a majority of the skills updates lately have been purely window dressing. Hell, I enjoy getting on every Monday and finding the new location of Nicholas and the Professor. When they don't, I move on with my life and either play the old stuff more or find an alternate means of entertainment. I survive.

Growing up playing games like Super Mario Bros. and The Legend of Zelda, games where there were no content updates or expansions, you had a finite amount of content, and it was fine. I'm thrilled to play a game now where the world does expand from time to time, giving me new things to do, but I see that as a bonus, not as something I demand for a game that I play for free on their servers. I think it's cool as hell that ANet cares enough about the consumers to have some of their people spend time here in the 'Community' finding out the pulse of (some of) the playerbase and communicating with us. It's not something they *have* to do. The way a lot of people respond to them on this thread, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't do it in the future.

the last time there was a PvE content update, and when Anet had to delay it, they came out well in advance to tell us that it would be delayed for another week. the general comments being posted were along the lines of "thanks for telling us, but make sure the update will be good." they could've done the same here, even on thursday morning, and the general consensus would've been the same. instead, they say nothing and leave people disappointed.

and seriously, a pve player telling us to "adapt and overcome"? that's just so ironic.

I have just 2 words of advice "reading comprehension". People read something and then proceed to totally miss the the point of what was said just to promote their point of view. We all may be guilty of this from time to time, but it does get excessive in Riverside. I am as guilty as anyone else when I let my temper get the best of me. I now try and read each post twice before I post, hoping to avoid foot in mouth disease (doesn't always work).

Sometimes when I'm angry I have the right to be angry, but that doesn't give me the right to be cruel. Quote from unknown author

Prior to the April 9th content update, Regina came to these boards and informed us before the build went live that we would not be receiving a skill balance as part of that build. Going back and reading that thread once again, it's clear that even when we are given prior warning, many still lash out in disgust. Let's be honest. It doesn't matter that we weren't informed. A thread could have been made here 10 days ago that the balance update would be delayed and chances are that thread would be 20 pages just like this one.


This is why Community Relations is and always will be, "Damned If They Do & Damned If They Don't". It's another example, in the long line of examples, that no matter what decision is made by the staff, it's never good enough for part of the demographic.

As for insults; I saw none. All I saw was a man who told it how it was. Around here we like to pride ourselves (or so it seems) on wanting blunt truth. That to be a part of "Riverside" one needs to have the so-called thick skin. That being said; If we can dish it out, we better learn to sit here and take it too. Martin spoke the blunt truth in certain areas and it stung some. I, for one, am glad he did so. Was it aggressive? Absolutely. It should have been. In fact I'd argue it neededto be aggressive. But was it insulting? Not at all.

I have been telling people that I didn't want to work on my sin because I have really bad luck and Anet would probably nerf something as soon as I got set up to do some of the more popular farms and SCs.

So a couple of weeks ago I got bored and decded to drag my sin to EotN and get all the skills and titles I needed for everything. I had farmed the hell out of the raptors with my ele in the past, so I needed a new location to try out... vaettirs! Did it for about a day before I decided to give it a rest until the next event. I felt pretty confident that the vaettirs were going to decrease the ammount of time I needed to spend in Scamadan spamming to buy booze! Oops...

Ohhhh well... do I dare start doing UWSC with the sin?

It's not about adapting and overcoming skill changes and when they arrive. It's about the fact we were told (I do not have a source for this, apologies if I am mistaken) That we would get a skill update every month on the second Thursday on the month. For a large amount of the gvg community, most gvg is centered around playing the mAT, and practising for the mAT. For that reason, a skill update 2 weeks before the mAT is generally good; it allows a good amount of practise and theorycrafting as to be sufficiently prepared for the mAT. The problem, from the mAT players perspective, of having skill updates, which are designed to be meta changing, being delayed by a week, for example, is that the entire gvg community has very little time to prepare for the mAT. Theory crafting, or copying other peoples theory crafts (In many cases), takes a lot longer than a week to do effectively. If you think that we should just 'adapt' to these changes, then you've clearly never participated in any high level pvp.

A weeks delay to the skill balance is not too bad, so long as there is some prior warning. A month's delay just results in ridiculous mATs.

If the skill update is next week, which I am beginning to doubt, I hope it will actually contain a month and a weeks worth of work, and change skills that are actually broken. I don't think that monthly skill updates are too much to expect, and I don't think that being told if there is a delay beforehand is too much to expect either.

And, seriously, despite the pve community being rather divided on game updates and what should happen, the pvp community is pretty much in consensus what should be nerfed, and are vocal enough that anet should have picked up on it. In terms of pvp skill balance, its not a case of a divided community, but a case of anet not listening to what is being asked.

Do it. If this works, you will have lost some time and effort, and helped to improve the game. Continue to do this with everything broken, ok?

What they have to understand is that many of us are disinclined to buy GW2 if we're going to have to suffer through this a second time around. For example, suppose I decide to play GW2's ritualist equivalent. What would I expect? Lots of bad things. Nerfs. Neglect. Add that to general problems, such as online store and EotN-style bad expansion, and maybe GW2's not worth the money to buy.

Right... the "points" and bug update was this week the "First" Thursday... so the Skills Update, if there is one, will be next week the "Second" Thursday.

This month is an off month because the mAT Finals was so close to the next month... its just like election day for the US... "Election day will be the first Tuesday of the Month of November, UNLESS THAT FIRST DAY OF THE MONTH IS THAT TUESDAY; IN WHICH THE ELECTION WILL MOVE TO THE FOLLOWING TUESDAY. One can assume that this analogy can be applied to this month's update sechedual...

I'm not really sure why you would expect anything at all, given the general lack of information. The game isn't even going to be a direct sequel, and even if it were, that has absolutely no implications for gameplay.

SabreWolf, I'm not entirely sure you understand the definition of 'First'. This update was on the 11th of June; The second Thursday of the month. The first Thursday was on the 4th June. I'm not entirely sure what your point is, and I don't live in the US, so I'm not sure I understand your analogy fully.

Usually, updates fall on the second Thursday after the weekend of the mATs... which means that the "first" thursday of the update series would have been this past Thursday (which it is was), and the "second" Thursday of updates will fall on this comming Thursday. So given that, ANET is on sechedual actually, with the exception of the XTH points which has been delayed to this comming build on Thursday.

Sorry, but I don't understand in what way the 11th on June can possibly be interpreted as the first Thursday. The 4th of June was the first Thursday after the weekend of mATS's.

source

"The monthly maintenance updates is scheduled regulary on the 1st or 2nd Thursday of each month"

And sometimes, a skill update will be on the following Thursday after this update... like it was last month...

Actually, there is a vast amount of information. Information about the developers. How they react to community input. How they've fixed clearly broken classes (that's sarcasm by the way). How they've been oh so very fast in getting Spawning Power fixed (more sarcasm).

If this is what we can expect, I'm not impressed.

If you are "suffering" you really shouldn't be playing.
Repeat after me, "It's a game." Play what you like. Vote with your wallet. But empty threats of boycott's of a future product aren't going to help. If GW2 is awesome, it will sell. If it sucks, it won't. Simple.
Don't try to speak for everybody else on what consumers will do. GW is not Auto Assault. There actually are fans who will buy the sequel.

Problem being if anybody quits Anet feels nothing.

Sure...but that has nothing to do with the fact that Anet has awful communication and has lied to us many times.

Hawk, I've been thinking about the 'It's just a game' philosophy and even though it may be more healthy for the mind, it leaves me with an impression of indifference. So is it just a game for Anet too? They don't allow E-bay gold, to give only one silly example. Why not? It's only just a game right? No, it's not just a game. Not for the makers, nor for plenty of fans on the other side of the line.

For me personally, it was 'The' game last 4 years. I won't speak for someone else, but this game was not like the others out there. It goes even further than that. Just like Martin, I started with Pong in another century. The gaming scene became an industry and standards went up year after year. Anet set a new standard in the 'mmo' segment with their free to play game called GW. They even spoiled us with free stuff like 'Sorrow's Furnace' and almost weekly updates the first year after release. That's a big difference with the current situation so I'm not surprised some players are feeling left out.

You can react by saying it's just a game, but personally I feel a bit sad it had to come to this. We miss Anet's magic.

actualy I'm a PvPer, just not in Guild Wars :-) even used to pvp in real life - which is where we used to use the "adapt and overcome" saying a lot..

the skill update will get here... eventually..

still ironic though... whole thing is pretty funny too..

I love Gun Pierson's post.
It's true. Most of us here are really spoiled.
Anet is a company that works magic.

Just compare GW to any other MMO on the market. Such as WoW, City of Heroes, Oblivion, Gaia Online, and, of course, the crapfest that is known as Graalonline.

Guild Wars revolutionized MMO standards with its instances, no need for monthly fees, and constant updates for nearly 4 years.
It use to be an AWESOME competetive game with great metas too!

However, there comes a time when something must die off. Everything does. Right now guild wars has past its climax and with this new standard that had been set, Anet wants to expand work on another game: Guild Wars 2, the successor.
However, with that leaving, they were kind enough to still leave us with updates every once in awhile, albiet, not constant updates, still updates after all guild wars has been through. Quite bulky today, I must add?

QQing needs to stop and we should more-so appreciate how far guild wars has come. This is the only game I've ever seen to set such standards in MMOs and it is the reason I'm here on my laptop over playing COD4 or Counter Strike.

To make a game so huge that people still don't complete after 4 years is truly a masterpiece in my opinion. Truly, it's a masterpiece. And even without all these free updates, I'm very happy for what it is.
And to those saying updates that require payment sucks, it may be for people like you or me, but the revenue that anet will get will allow them to have the budget to put a lot more life into the game even after 4 years of soooooo much work.

Honestly this brings up some interesting theories. Guild Wars is a game like Football or Basketball are games. They are competitive events where you work at improving your set of skills and competing with other people who use a similar set of skills. When playing Football in the back yard with neighbors, its just a game. When playing basketball in the local park, its just a game. But ask yourself, at what point does it stop being a game, and turn into an intricate part of your life? Does it ever become something more?

To the professional football player, it is not just a game, but a means of making a living. It is how he provides for his family, and it is what his entire life revolves around. He trains countless hours throughout the year just that he may perform well in this "Game".

Obviously Guild Wars isn't as lucrative in the money department so you can't actually provide for your family, but here is an interesting question. After you devote a certain amount of time to this "game" for whatever reason, is it still just a game?

A game is defined as an amusement or a pastime. But if you spend the majority of your day playing this game, is it really just a pastime, or is it an important part of your life? Games can be just as addicting as drugs or alcohol substance. A lot of kids today spend their whole day thinking about the "game" they love to play. When they are at school they are thinking, "I can't wait to go home and log on to xbox live to play Halo", or "I can't wait to level up my level 65 Druid".

As sad as it may be, this "game" as you call it, is one of the most important things in some peoples lives. This "game" gives them a sense of belonging and euphoria that they can't find anywhere else in their life.

So I ask you this, if you spend 1 hour a day just casually wasting time, Is it a game? If you spend multiple hours a day studying videos of matches played by other players learning the ins and outs of competition and improving on your skills so that you may place well in that big monthly tournament, Is it still a game?

Does it ever stop becoming just a game to some people?

TL : DR - A completely off topic ramble about nothing important.