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Originally Posted by Skye Marin
They key word is "Massive" which implies "Persistant".
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GW not an MMO?! FTW. Fight!
immortius
pamelf
I'm more interested in your statement about the hype about GW2...what hype pray tell? For there to be hype, there'd have to be information.
Avarre
I'm not sure I'd consider GW a MMO any more than Diablo 2.
Nerel
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Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar
Checklist.
1. Millions of players, playing the same game. Check! |
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Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar
2. Thousands if not millions of players playing together? Semi Check!
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Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar
3. Online playability enabled? Check!
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Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar
4. Storyline element often found in role playing games? Check!
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Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar
5. PvP pitting massive amounts of players against each other and in coop teams? Check!
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Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar
6. Special game play events? Check!
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Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar
7. Hundreds, if not thousands of complaining fans? Check!
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The real question is, will GW2 be an MMO? Or does anyone even care?
Edit added out of boredom, after some thought the references by people (in this thread) to MMO meaning Massive Multiplayer Online is beginning to annoy me. Using Massive in this context seems to imply that the game itself is massive, whereas Massively Multiplayer Online implies just what it means, that it can be played by massive amounts of players together... 4-12 person instances aren't massive in the same way that Unreal Tournament isn't an MMO.
For all it's MMO trappings, GW misses out on the massively bit... but then, GW never claimed to be an MMO, so that isn't a criticism.
Forgive my boredom and inane nitpicking.
EagleDelta1
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Originally Posted by Nerel
That's more of a 'maybe' lately. See all the "Guild Wars is dead" threads.
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A list of the most popular MMOs of 2008(by player volume) GW was #2, second only to WoW. Even in it's current state GW has more players than LOTRO, EVE and FFXI. All of which have players numbering in only the hundreds of thousands.
I would call that pretty massive.
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by Nerel
The real question is, will GW2 be an MMO? Or does anyone even care? |
And I think a lot of people care. Possibly 6 million, maybe more.
It's also worth noting that most media regards Guild Wars as a MMORPG, rightly or wrongly. I think the general perception is that GW is a somwhat limited MMORPG, but that those limits are countered by the fact there is no monthly fee.
But now ArenaNet announces Guild Wars 2 CAN have more "traditional" MMORPG features, and still not have a monthly fee. This can only increase Guild Wars 2 popularity.
Abedeus
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Originally Posted by Avarre
I'm not sure I'd consider GW a MMO any more than Diablo 2.
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Tell me how Diablo 2 and GW are not basically the same. The only difference is that you can't trade in channels, like you can in GW's towns, but that's because it's a pretty old game.
DreamWind
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
And I think a lot of people care. Possibly 6 million, maybe more.
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As for this thread, GW isn't an MMO. Its a CORPG that over the course of time Anet has tried to turn into an MMO. GW2 will be a fullscale MMO. /thread
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
Exactly what I've said before.
Tell me how Diablo 2 and GW are not basically the same. The only difference is that you can't trade in channels, like you can in GW's towns, but that's because it's a pretty old game. |
Seriously, why does Guild Wars have to be "like" something? Can't it just be it's own thing?
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Originally Posted by Dreamwind
Uh...you do know that there isn't nearly 6 million players in this game. On this forum alone there are threads where hundreds of people claimed they had anywhere from 2-9 accounts.
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Did I say 6 million are currently playing the game?
No, I said 6 million people probably care about GW2. For the million or so that lost interest, there are a million or more who wouldn't buy Guild Wars, who will buy GW2 because of all the features discussed.
People have to remember this game is 4 years old. Most MMORPGS don't age well. I don't have the numbers on AoC or WaR, but I wouldn't be surprised if more people have accounts with Guild Wars then those two games.
DreamWind
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
Did I say 6 million are currently playing the game?
No, I said 6 million people probably care about GW2. For the million or so that lost interest, there are a million or more who wouldn't buy Guild Wars, who will buy GW2 because of all the features discussed. |
immortius
They haven't sold 6 million units, and at least some units are people buying campaigns to extend their account access or buying extra accounts.
Cacheelma
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Originally Posted by Temidien
my inner GW pride exploded out of me.
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
But, the fact people do compare the two speaks highly of Guild Wars.
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It's like comparing a hobo to Bill Gates "zomg he isn't as rich as Bill Gates". That doesn't speak highly of the hobo whatsoever.
Abedeus
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
I didn't know Diablo 2 had Heroes and Henchies. Silly me.
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Did I say 6 million are currently playing the game? No, I said 6 million people probably care about GW2. For the million or so that lost interest, there are a million or more who wouldn't buy Guild Wars, who will buy GW2 because of all the features discussed. |
GW never had or will have 6 millions of players. It sold 6 millions of COPIES, when a copy = any chapter of GW and expansion. If I have two accounts, one with every chapter and EotN, and another account with Factions and Prophecies, then I count as 6 "people".
Unreal Havoc
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Originally Posted by Menlai Littiz
Mordakai u didnt read..... i meant WoW is an MMORPG coz of the persistant pvp in the pve areas.... not JUST in the pvp areas (battlegrounds) due to the 2 factions horde and alliance... yes gw has the luxon and kurzick factions but players can only confront each other in pvp areas e.g AB so it is not persistent pvp is it
 |
Massively= A large amount
Multiplayer= More than one person playing.
Online= Played on the internet.
Guild Wars has all three of these traits, so how is it not a MMO?
Racthoh
"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" or something like that.
Think that can be applied here somehow. How about this: it's a game, end of discussion. You either like it or you don't. Some abbreviation is not going to change that.
Think that can be applied here somehow. How about this: it's a game, end of discussion. You either like it or you don't. Some abbreviation is not going to change that.
shoyon456
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Originally Posted by EagleDelta1
Even at that, all current lists and studies have GW with more players than ANY other MMO, except WoW, of course.
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The lists use the number of "activated accounts." That includes multiple chapters added to one account, the hundreds of thousands of gw players that have 2 or more accounts, and the MANY people that don't play GW anymore.
In my nearly four years of GW, ive gone through nearly two full friends' lists of people that left GW for 1) a better game 2) a better company
Many of these people were more than just "casual friends" and often played with alot of zeal before seeing that there are other real MMO's out there that can offer alot more, some where pay 2 play isnt the case.
HuntMaster Avatar
Ok, I guess I see where people are coming from. GW is not a MMO because the amount of people able to play together is small when compared to. I get ya.
As for GW not being a massive game? Maybe not massive, but its purdy damn big! The one thing that GW does better than some other games (MMO's) is its terrain and enviroments.
I can't speak on WoW's set up, but in EQ1, everything was pretty plain. LotrO had a nice variety but nothing like GW. GW does enviroments the way they should be done, or atleast in the right direction.
The Bridge & Waterfall in the Azuran realm of EotN, The realm of torment, Fow, UW, The Magnum/Magnun(forget spelling) jungle, The jade sea, those towns in NF (later part of the game, pre desolation) with the purdy colors. (lol that helps.) The new dungeons with the shrooms and moss and little pools. Those are just a few of the areas I really like.
But I agree, I don't care what its labeled as, I was just participating in the thread. I enjoy Gw for what it offers and not what its considered.
As for GW not being a massive game? Maybe not massive, but its purdy damn big! The one thing that GW does better than some other games (MMO's) is its terrain and enviroments.
I can't speak on WoW's set up, but in EQ1, everything was pretty plain. LotrO had a nice variety but nothing like GW. GW does enviroments the way they should be done, or atleast in the right direction.
The Bridge & Waterfall in the Azuran realm of EotN, The realm of torment, Fow, UW, The Magnum/Magnun(forget spelling) jungle, The jade sea, those towns in NF (later part of the game, pre desolation) with the purdy colors. (lol that helps.) The new dungeons with the shrooms and moss and little pools. Those are just a few of the areas I really like.
But I agree, I don't care what its labeled as, I was just participating in the thread. I enjoy Gw for what it offers and not what its considered.
Longasc
You got worked up about 6 words.
He just said Guild Wars is no MMO.
The same debate was once if Diablo counts as RPG.
GW is not just like the standard formula for MMOs, and then people say it is no MMO.
IMO it definitely is a MMO, people just like to narrow down "MMO" and "MMORPG" to the standard persistent level grindmill MMOs.
He just said Guild Wars is no MMO.
The same debate was once if Diablo counts as RPG.
GW is not just like the standard formula for MMOs, and then people say it is no MMO.
IMO it definitely is a MMO, people just like to narrow down "MMO" and "MMORPG" to the standard persistent level grindmill MMOs.
Ghost Omel
I completetly agrre with you Longasc.. But im going to ask a quiestion that others already ask..
What is a MMORPG Formula..?
And who.. or what have set up with so called formula.? and Why =)
What is a MMORPG Formula..?
And who.. or what have set up with so called formula.? and Why =)
Longasc
Common knowledge of prototypical games. Or at least the games that people know.
Just take a look at WoW, it was not the first game that followed the DIKU MUD scheme, but a very successful one. There are many games that share its characteristics like classes, skills, levels and all that. So WoW = MMO. Which is totally wrong of course, but still...
GW is different in this regard, different skill system, rather limited levels, heavily instanced.
People usually argue that "true MMOs" have to be persistant and make less use of instancing.
But in the end, MMO means nothing else but Massive Multiplayer Online. And RPG Role Playing Game. Now you can argue what is "massive" actually, give me a number...
P.S.:
There is also a difference between MMO and MMORPG. But most MMOs fall in the MMORPG category.
How about GW?
Just take a look at WoW, it was not the first game that followed the DIKU MUD scheme, but a very successful one. There are many games that share its characteristics like classes, skills, levels and all that. So WoW = MMO. Which is totally wrong of course, but still...
GW is different in this regard, different skill system, rather limited levels, heavily instanced.
People usually argue that "true MMOs" have to be persistant and make less use of instancing.
But in the end, MMO means nothing else but Massive Multiplayer Online. And RPG Role Playing Game. Now you can argue what is "massive" actually, give me a number...
P.S.:
There is also a difference between MMO and MMORPG. But most MMOs fall in the MMORPG category.
How about GW?
Alicendre
If MMORPGs don't have to be persistant then Diablo 2 is a MMORPG. A whole mode (ladder) which is necessary for a certain quest and some items is only unlocked online, you pretty much have to trade to get some items legitimately, channels are like towns, it's a lot more grindier than GW...
Basically, if a game doesn't have to be persistant to be a MMORPG, then any RPG that can be played online is an MMORPG.
Basically, if a game doesn't have to be persistant to be a MMORPG, then any RPG that can be played online is an MMORPG.
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
Uhm. Yes, yes it does. Henchmen, exactly. Act 1 has an Archer, Act 2 a Spearman, Act 3 a mage with a sword, Act 5 has a Barbarian.
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On paper, maybe Diablo and Guild Wars look very similar. But surely even you can admit they play differently.
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
BZZT WRONG
GW never had or will have 6 millions of players. It sold 6 millions of COPIES, when a copy = any chapter of GW and expansion. If I have two accounts, one with every chapter and EotN, and another account with Factions and Prophecies, then I count as 6 "people". |
I said over 6 million people care about GW2. For any multiple accounts, turned-off players, etc, there are more people who never bothered even buying Guild Wars because of all the reasons brought up on this thread!
Or are you arguing ONLY the people who bought Guild Wars are even considering Guild Wars 2?
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by Alicendre
If MMORPGs don't have to be persistant then Diablo 2 is a MMORPG. A whole mode (ladder) which is necessary for a certain quest and some items is only unlocked online, you pretty much have to trade to get some items legitimately, channels are like towns, it's a lot more grindier than GW...
Basically, if a game doesn't have to be persistant to be a MMORPG, then any RPG that can be played online is an MMORPG. |
After all, it's not PMMORPG. It's MMORPG.
Anyway, this is just semantics. As long as the media calls GW a MMORPG, I think it will generally be viewed as a MMORPG, whether it meets everybody's (different!) definition of what a MMORPG is or not.
Coraline Jones
If you look at the NCSoft business reports, they classify Guild Wars 2, and by extension, GW1, as a MMO. You can believe what you want, but in the end Guild Wars is classified in the same category as WoW, LOTRO, EQ, or whatever online RPG that you want to use as an example.
"CORPG" is just a pure marketing term. Aion is claiming that it has "PvPvE". That doesn't mean that it's not the same feature as other games that feature seamless PvP and PvE content.
"CORPG" is just a pure marketing term. Aion is claiming that it has "PvPvE". That doesn't mean that it's not the same feature as other games that feature seamless PvP and PvE content.
EagleDelta1
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Originally Posted by Alicendre
If MMORPGs don't have to be persistant then Diablo 2 is a MMORPG. A whole mode (ladder) which is necessary for a certain quest and some items is only unlocked online, you pretty much have to trade to get some items legitimately, channels are like towns, it's a lot more grindier than GW...
Basically, if a game doesn't have to be persistant to be a MMORPG, then any RPG that can be played online is an MMORPG. |
hlc617
The pvp in WoW is optional, and you can get to 80 without ever grouping with anyone else... but I guess you're not able to kill steal and mess up other people's quests in GW, so it *can't* be an MMO .
Naw I get what both sides are saying. Idk I call it an MMO because people don't know wtf a CORPG is :|.
. Naw I get what both sides are saying. Idk I call it an MMO because people don't know wtf a CORPG is :|.
Cacheelma
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Originally Posted by hlc617
Idk I call it an MMO because people don't know wtf a CORPG is :|.
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Abedeus
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
I said over 6 million people care about GW2. For any multiple accounts, turned-off players, etc, there are more people who never bothered even buying Guild Wars because of all the reasons brought up on this thread!
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You have nothing to back this up.
Quote:
| Or are you arguing ONLY the people who bought Guild Wars are even considering Guild Wars 2? |
Especially if there are dozens of MMOs that not only have actualy gameplay SCREENSHOTS, they already are in Beta and are pretty advanced. Aion, Champions Online, The Old Republic, just to name free. There is also that new Blizzard MMO that they've just announced.
[quote=Coraline Jones Aion is claiming that it has "PvPvE". That doesn't mean that it's not the same feature as other games that feature seamless PvP and PvE content.[/quote]
Uhm. PvPvE refers to fighting both the enemy factions, AI and player one, at the same time in Abbys.
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Originally Posted by EagleDelta1
Not necessarily. Diablo 2(and most other SP RPGs w/ MP modes) have their Multiplayer run on the same player server system seen in most FPS and RTS games(where the PLAYER creates a server on his machine and other players join)
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lutz
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
AWrong. Battle.net is hosted by Blizzard. Players never create their own servers on Closed BN, only on Open, from what I know. But nobody legal plays there, anyway.
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beaverlegions
i think its safe to say that when the company that makes the game says tis not a mmo, we can all agree that its not a mmo.
Avarre
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Originally Posted by lutz
The games made on closed BNet (for StarCraft, and possibly WarCraft) are actually hosted on the host's computer. Battle.net, for StarCraft, is simply an interface for you to connect to someone else's computer.
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Not sure how it works for D2 though - uber dia spawns are dependent on game IP within the server. I'd assume Bnet works the same way for all the games, though.
EagleDelta1
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
Uhm. PvPvE refers to fighting both the enemy factions, AI and player one, at the same time in Abbys.
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Quote:
| Wrong. Battle.net is hosted by Blizzard. Players never create their own servers on Closed BN, only on Open, from what I know. But nobody legal plays there, anyway. |
EDIT: didn't see that lutz had already beaten me to the punch.
Finally, I'll say it again. Just because ANet coined the term "CORPG", doesn't mean that it is a new genre. The RPG genre "Diablo-style" games are put in - hack'n'slash RPGs, didn't become a genre until AFTER diablo 1&2, and several "copycats" were released(and it was argued for a long time whether or not diablo was an RPG) that the hack n slash genre was adopted. The INDUSTRY decides the game genres, NOT a single company. As far as the world is concerned GW is a MMO.
Made In Ascalon
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Originally Posted by Coraline Jones
If you look at the NCSoft business reports, they classify Guild Wars 2, and by extension, GW1, as a MMO.
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shoyon456
Um, no sorry. Anet has said it themselves, GW2 is a WHOLE NEW GAME. My main complaint about GW2 from the little info we have is that it is reversing nearly all of the gaming elements that made GW unique and not a classic "MMO."
Phaern Majes
Just because I call a pig a peacock doesn't make it so....
Mordakai
If Guild Wars is not a MMORPG, then why is it here
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm
http://www.tentonhammer.com/
http://www.the-top-tens.com/lists/to...orpg-games.asp (nevermind I've never heard of their top game, Entropia Universe?)
1up at first called it a new genre....
http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3141192&p=1
but now calls it a MMORPG:
http://www.1up.com/do/gameOverview?cId=3158267
PC Gamer lists Guild Wars in their MMORPG section
Massively is letting viewers decide where he will go next in Guild Wars:
http://www.massively.com/2009/06/17/...quering-kryta/
Not to mention.... MMO Guru Network!
(I'm sure there are others I missed. Please feel free to add other sites that list Guild Wars as a MMORPG).
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm
http://www.tentonhammer.com/
http://www.the-top-tens.com/lists/to...orpg-games.asp (nevermind I've never heard of their top game, Entropia Universe?)
1up at first called it a new genre....
http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3141192&p=1
but now calls it a MMORPG:
http://www.1up.com/do/gameOverview?cId=3158267
PC Gamer lists Guild Wars in their MMORPG section
Massively is letting viewers decide where he will go next in Guild Wars:
http://www.massively.com/2009/06/17/...quering-kryta/
Not to mention.... MMO Guru Network!
(I'm sure there are others I missed. Please feel free to add other sites that list Guild Wars as a MMORPG).
MithranArkanere
Massive doesn't mean 'with 24 players in the same place' it means with LOTS of players in the same place.
The only bits of MMO in GW are in outposts, and those palces are more like a mix between cities and the 'party forming chart rooms' that games like Diablo have.
Being able to play with other players doesn't make a game a MMO. The numbers must be big enough. 24 is not big enough. I don't know were the limit should be put, but I'm sure it's over 50.
As with games like Diablo, Dungeon Siege or Neverwinters Nights, you form a party before entering the actual game, and there are limits of how many people can be playing at the same time in each game. Remember the lines: "<player name> has joined the game>" Yes, the 'game' gappens in missions, dungeons, explorable areas, arenas and other playable zones, where skills can be activated.
But unlike them, you can interact with the world in the same place you form parties.
So GW is like nothing else. It's unique in that way. And so, it needed a different name.
The name chosen was CORPG.
GW2 will be a real zoned MMORPG, like Granado Espada or Ragnarok.
The only bits of MMO in GW are in outposts, and those palces are more like a mix between cities and the 'party forming chart rooms' that games like Diablo have.
Being able to play with other players doesn't make a game a MMO. The numbers must be big enough. 24 is not big enough. I don't know were the limit should be put, but I'm sure it's over 50.
As with games like Diablo, Dungeon Siege or Neverwinters Nights, you form a party before entering the actual game, and there are limits of how many people can be playing at the same time in each game. Remember the lines: "<player name> has joined the game>" Yes, the 'game' gappens in missions, dungeons, explorable areas, arenas and other playable zones, where skills can be activated.
But unlike them, you can interact with the world in the same place you form parties.
So GW is like nothing else. It's unique in that way. And so, it needed a different name.
The name chosen was CORPG.
GW2 will be a real zoned MMORPG, like Granado Espada or Ragnarok.
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
And you got that number from... where? Not even 1/3 of the people you mentioned bought a copy, let alone has an account.
You have nothing to back this up. |
If you think only 3 million people have bought Guild Wars, I think you are wrong.
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
Yes, because if people didn't play the first game, what makes you think they will play the sequel?
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Like it or hate it, Guild Wars has gotten press over the last 4 years. People will know about GW2, and it will sell better than Guild Wars (even if it dies if it sucks, the intial sales will be greater.)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
Especially if there are dozens of MMOs that not only have actualy gameplay SCREENSHOTS, they already are in Beta and are pretty advanced. Aion, Champions Online, The Old Republic, just to name free. There is also that new Blizzard MMO that they've just announced.
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Abedeus
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
No offense, but neither do you.
If you think only 3 million people have bought Guild Wars, I think you are wrong. |
Yes, I think only 2 millions bought or less. Considering how many people have two accounts that often have 3 or 4 games, number gets even lower. And there are some maniacs with more than 3 or even 7 accounts. Because people with 1 campaign only usually don't play for too long, anyway.
Quote:
| Geez, I don't know, because maybe MMORGs weren't as big 4 years ago? Because people bought WoW instead? Because people didn't know who the hell NCSoft, ArenaNet and Guild Wars was? |
Quote:
| Like it or hate it, Guild Wars has gotten press over the last 4 years. People will know about GW2, and it will sell better than Guild Wars (even if it dies if it sucks, the intial sales will be greater.) |
Quote:
| Those are all pay to play. And they could all suck. AoC had great screenshots, too. |
Champions, from what people in beta say (of course, through friends - they still are under NDA) is pretty good. It's basically City of Heroes, but improved.
TOR is being made by Bioware, they don't have a single bad game.
edit: submitted too fast.
Mordakai
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
Dude, 1/3 of 6 millions isn't 3 million.
Yes, I think only 2 millions bought or less. Considering how many people have two accounts that often have 3 or 4 games, number gets even lower. And there are some maniacs with more than 3 or even 7 accounts. Because people with 1 campaign only usually don't play for too long, anyway. |
I can't beleive that many people have multiple accounts, that's crazy talk!
But, since there is no way to prove it either way, I guess we'll just have to wait until GW2 comes out.
BTW, what makes you so sure that out of the 2 million who have bought GW, none will buy multiple copies of GW2?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
Poor marketing.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
Really? This explains probably why there are only 30 reviews of Nightfall at Metacritics, and only 20 reviews of EotN. If anything, people started to forget about Guild Wars thanks to no news or new campaigns. CAMPAIGNS, not full-priced packs with reskinned weapons and armors.
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That's what people are waiting for, not EoTN.
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| Aion is already in EU/US open beta and in Asia it has 4 millions of subscribers. That's only 1 million less than WoW in Asia. |
Look, again, these are all pay to play, and so do not directly compete with Guild Wars 2.
The great thing about Guild Wars is you can buy it and play another game, too, since you don't feel forced to play by spending about $15 a month.
EDIT: I do think it's funny you think all these MMORPGS will succeed, whereas Guild Wars 2 will fail.