Discussion on the Stormlord concept art and Charr Structures

Why Asura? Why not Mursaat? Or the Seers?

250 years, Asura because it looks like something that they would build or design. Mursaat are ether hiding or basically whipped out. Seers, well there are very very few of them. So i beleive it is Asura.

That wasn't my point.

What I meant is that we have nothing that indicates that kind of structure by the Asura, or even a Dragon near Asura buildings.

But putting the Seers/Mursaat further, like you said, 250 years. A lot changes in 250 years. Not only the Asura but also the Mursaat and the Seers.

Key word right there, and your wording threw me off.

Long sentence. And the dragon does create lightning - look at its mouth.

Yes, do link, the only confirmed GW2 concept art I know of is "Snow Battle."

The Mursaat survive, and even if they didn't, their buildings most likely would last a while. Seers are unknown fate. And why just consider those three races? There are so many structures out there we do not know the origin of, and there are even more places we have not visited.

If you're going to argue it belonging to a specific race, you should do more than that - like Leon argued for it being the Iron Citadel. Simply saying "well, we don't know enough bout this race, and that race is near gone, so it must be this race" is rather poor thinking, as there are many more races out there.

I stick with Augury Rock on the pretense of shape, the bottom looks similar to the Mesa, and the dragon could pass for the size of "Grothmar" while we don't see its back and the "desert dragon" being a dragon of lightning does make sense. And we must also consider that the other name for "Grothmar" - "Water dragon" - is only named such due to the concept art, which looks like it was intended to be in a sea or the like, so we cannot think of "Grothmar" as the "water dragon" as well, and with knowing the chance of "Grothmar" being the desert dragon is exceedingly high, then we must consider what else it could control - and air/lightning fits well with something which corrupts while flying.

Can't find it. Then again, I may have messed up and confused with the confirmation of the 'Snow Battle' one. Scratch what I said.

Again. That wasn't my point. I just pointed those two out so I could compare them to the Asura in Smiley's point of view.

No s. Mursaat remains the same from the transition to plural from singular. (And while Anet doesn't endorse it, I still stand steadfast in my belief that Asura should be the same.)

While it is still just concept art..I think I have an excellent argument for why the dragon probably isn't Grothmar, which should have been apparent from the beginning.

Well ya in 250 years a lot has changed, so Eliz does have point that it could be from some other race. But i still stand that its not Mursaat or Seer.

But i don't think anyone has pointed this out yet, now it could just be the way the designed, but if you look really closely, the dragon seams to have a metallic type armor over him or and the middle thing that is comming out of the rock is the same color, so it is possible that the dragon is the one that caused it.

Meh, small typo. Shush you grammar nazi.

I'll just point one thing out:
We only have hints that it corrupts while flying. Nothing says that, while it is landed, it corrupts everything. I would find it very hard to believe that "Grothmar" is always corrupting the very earth and creatures around it. It is either on it's own will, or while flying (perhaps caused by flapping his wings).

Also, if that is Augury Rock, isn't it a little, oh say, dark? Especially the part the dragon is touching. Though one could counter-argue that it is the lighting. However, a counter-argument for the counter-argument would be the right side of the rock is also dark(ening), and that spot would naturally be lit up from the lighting.

We never see Seerian structures, so we cannot say whether something is or isn't with certainty. Mursaat, we can a little bit, but that is still iffy.

The "disk" is not the same color as the dragon, and it doesn't look like the dragon is wearing any sort of armor, it's just the texture of his skin that is throwing you off - though at some portions, it does seem like he has some sort of shell or chitinous hide, very similar to that of insects, or possibly of "Grothmar." (Again, as we don't see the dragon's back, or "Grothmar's" front, hard to tell.)

A typo that has appeared repeatedly and consistently whenever you're describing multiple Mursaat, right.

I think it's pretty bloody obvious, that it does in fact, corrupt everything around it when it's ground-bound.

These Ancient Dragons have powers that rival the Gods. Malchor raised a sunken peninsula from the depths of the Sea of Sorrows, for Quetzalcoatl's sake. We have what appears to be a non-sentient, non-sapient, nearly all-pervading entity, the Mists, that spawns forth life, and, within its very center, holds a location that can be used to go anywhere and anywhen, and you're about to tell me that an Ancient Dragon that has powers rivaling a God wouldn't always be corrupting practically everything around it while not in flight or when it's not of its will? Not only that, but possibly corrupting these things so that they become its servants, which you earlier argued for.

Why on Tyria wouldn't it?

And that's what I get for not looking at the image prior to posing that argument. However, I still stand by my previous arguments that there are what appear to be mountains in the distance, bits of jutting rock in front of those mountains that don't appear like anything we've seen in the desert around Augury Rock, there's a giant metal disc or sphere on the front or side or back of it, there aren't two slabs of rock juxtaposed off the sides of the metal disc or sphere which would suggest the area we cracked open during our trial of Ascension, it's far narrower than Augury Rock towards the top as Augury Rock is a tad broader than what is depicted there, and, of course, it's not lying in a depression with water in front of it.

Oh, and also, a pro-argument against it being Grothmar is that the birds aren't twisted or changed into some strange evil crow assault squadron, while they appear to be clearly in range of its breath.

Actually, I usually say Mursaat for plural, or the Mursaat.

Which then puts it with the other dragons in which it isn't all the time. Thus, your point was?

How are we to know their power is everlasting? Certainly seems that the gods' power isn't - if a group of heroes can take down a god, chained or not, there then means there are limitations. The dragons' rival but not necessarily exceed the gods, and they by far are never mentioned to rival the Mists.

Aside from the argument of them not being able to constantly corrupt and twist (which, by the way, due to the pure laws of physics, no being can have an endless supply of energy - not even the Mists would, and I theorize that they don't, but use the energy of "destroyed" souls from the Rift).

I still say those are the wings. Massive wings don't just disappear into fog and get replaced by mountains. And just below would be clouds. The rest of the work is cloudy, so too would there, I'd assume. Also, there are mountains, though not huge, in what that direction would be if what we see would be Augury Rock and the disc is facing the outpost known as Augury Rock. Specifically, the Blazeridge Mountains. Though, again, not that huge of mountains (and no, not seen in game doesn't mean much of anything, as that was in Prophecies when the Blazeridge got so little focus).

Aurgury rock is in a place of declined land, known as the Mesa. If any creature such size were to step there, those cliffs which boarder the Mesa could easily collapse. But then again, it is concept art which is almost never specific to the actual game.

I'll give you the two slabs of rock - but I counter-argue with two things: Dragon-caused destruction, and/or concept art.

A bit foggy and I do see what could be a bit of an incline, which would go with the above of dragon (or something else) causing the cliffs to topple, leaving shallow inclines and a few jutting rocks.

First, other side of his head, though poor argument, second, and much better argument: They are too small to get a real good look at, are you sure they are not corrupted/twisted? At least one of them doesn't look like a normal bird to me (it actually has the shape of an airplane... Middle left of the flock - looks like two, but one still is oddly shaped for a bird).

Another thing on the birds - and in fact the whole - the art focuses on the dragon and the giant rock (specifically, the dragon and the disc in the rock it seems). So the birds would get little unusual detail to it, whether concept art or not, and the surroundings would also get less focus onto it. Again, if it is GW2 concept art of Augury Rock and "Grothmar," it won't be to the tee of what GW1 looks like, nor of what GW2 will look like.

Eh, must just be recently.

Did your thought consistency drop? Just because it corrupts stuff while on ground, doesn't mean it doesn't corrupt stuff while in the air. It simply does both. Doesn't need to be one or the other.

Er..Actually, the power, at least as in the essence, of the Gods, appears to be. So long as there's someone to absorb it nearby, that is. Even then, I don't think it would necessarily disappear after destroying the entire world. Which, by the way, how would Abaddon's death release enough power to destroy Tyria? We were technically on a completely different realm, somewhere in the Mists. I suppose he actually did bring the two closer together, close enough so that the release of his power would destroy both.

Besides that..It may not be everlasting, but that wasn't my point..

..And neither was it my point that they exceeded it, I'd think you'd know better than to think that when it comes to my views on the Ancient Dragons. My point was, if their power can rival a God's, I see no reason that it cannot be capable of generating a constant sphere of corruption.

Well..Actually..If they're just a magnet for energy, or something of that nature..They could, possibly have an endless supply. Primordus has already displayed that it radiates magic, or rather, bleeds magic, suggesting they might have a more intimate connection with the Mists that transcends the barriers imposed by the Bloodstones.

We have entities of fire, water, ice, stone, igneous rock, plantlife, and what would appear to be pure energy in the Margonites. An Ancient Dragon can't have fog for wings? Also, I think it's stretching it to say those are the Blazeridge Mountains. Look at the distance from Augury Rock to the Blazeridge Mountains again, it's quite a distance. And that's ignoring the visibility in-game.

And I'm well aware it won't be completely accurate, but it's going to have details that we're familiar with. Currently, disregarding both our arguments, this looks like nothing we've seen in-game. Also, Augury Rock is the outpost, I was using it due to your usage of it, so I wouldn't confuse you. The Mesa is actually the stone outcropping we're talking about, the place where the Trial of Ascension takes place. Also, it can fly, and it looks to me like it just flew and grabbed on to the side of the stone outcropping, so really, I doubt it stopped on the cliffs, and then moved on to the outcropping.

Edit: And also, yes, I realize, I should stop just glancing at the image in between quoted portions or responses.

Again, I think you're stretching what little we can derive from this piece. Grasping at straws in other words.

Again, I think that first argument is grasping at straws.

As I also think this is.

Of course it's a poor argument. Both our arguments are poor, Hades, all of our arguments are poor, since we're trying to extract information from a piece of concept artwork, that may not even be related to GW2, or may even make the final cut of GW2. Sure, we have a haystack with which to grasp at straws at, but that doesn't mean one of the straws will be the needle. Torment, we've probably already pulled all the straws, or burned the haystack by this point.

That's not what I was getting at, what I was getting at I also mentioned point blank below that, which was that it wouldn't be constant, which, thus, would bring up the possibility of "Grothmar" not corrupting/twisting in that scene depicted, assuming, again, that is GW2 concept art with "Grothmar."

That is not quite what I was referring to. Or at least, I view the "power" that Kormir absorbed and the amount of energy and magic usable by a being to be different. The power of the gods would be more of the limit, how powerful their magic can be, and their knowledge (of magic). What I meant was more of how much they can use up before tiring out (the energy bar for example). As for that power, it would have destroyed the "world" or realm they were in - the Realm of Torment. Interesting note: Some margonites call Tyria a realm, not world.

You were basically saying that the dragons (at least "Grothmar") would always be twisting, thus the dragon(s) would be spewing out magic constantly, which would mean either that the dragon has to have an immense intake of energy, or it would be everlasting. And, as GW is still limit to the laws of physics, then energy cannot be everlasting. There is a need for replacement when it is used - an outsource. Which would be what the gods' bodies are, the container and outsource for the energy, while the body also regains energy which replaces what is forced out via magic and mortal things. The same thing would be the case for the dragons.

What you quoted was an extension of what I was saying before. The dragon's energy, and thus magic, cannot be everlasting. As such, it cannot be used endlessly without an immense amount of intake. Thus your "constant sphere of corruption" would not be possible unless, again, the dragons had an immense amount of intake to replace the constantly used energy in the forum of magic.

A bigger connection to the Mists does not mean an endless supply, just a seemingly endless. Again, energy cannot come out of nothing, and nothing cannot turn into energy. And the most logical source of energy for the Mists would be fragments of souls (possibly material things as well, if there is some place in the universe where material things are destroyed and sent to the Mists, though I somehow doubt that).

Do note that I never claimed it to be the Blazeridge, just pointed them out. I'd continue, but I'll just quote the next bit:

Due to it being concept art, it will almost never look like it should. Go to Nolani's for instance, if you commission the same character, same armor, same pose, all instances will be different than what you imagined. If you take them to draw a landscape, you'll be lucky to get one that looks like it. If you tell them to add years onto the landscape, it will look nothing like what you see.

I knew when rebuttling that both sides of the argument were poor, and after posting, I knew you were smart enough to possibly be posing me up to make my theory look worse than it is. It is perfectly logical for the concept art to be of Augury Rock. It is also just as logical for it to be the Iron Citadel which you once said - though only if you take out the dragon. It is even more likely for it to not even be GW2 concept art. The point is, we cannot argue based on detail which you constantly desire to do. We cannot argue on facts of the art. We can only use the general description of the work and use that - which is a giant dragon who can easily match the size of Grothmar or be bigger, and a giant rock in a desert-like with plant life location that is cloudy. Arguing about "inclines" or "rocks jutting out" or "corrupted birds" are utterly pointless.

If this is GW2 art: We know it is not Primordus, we know it is not "Drakkar," it is possible but unlikely to be "Malchor," it is highly unlikely to be the Deep Sea Dragon; so that leaves us with two likelies and two possibles: "Grothmar," the Deep Sea Dragon, an unannounced dragon, and "Malchor."

I think it is pointless to speculate on even more Ancient Dragons at the moment, which gives us 3 dragons. Deep Sea Dragon is likely not to leave the sea, which gives us then 2 dragons. Of them, we know one is roughly the same size, and possible to be around the mesa (don't think I'll get why Augury Rock is the name of the outpost and not, you know, the giant rock).

Anyways, through the simple process of elimination, we can conclude that, once more, if it is GW2 concept art, it is either of "Malchor" or "Grothmar" - and due to the changes a concept art will have, pointing out the small details cannot say whether or not it is a certain location. Which, btw, Leon, if I was grasping at straws, then so were you by pointing out the same kinds of things - I just argued for while you argued against.

The thing is though, Augury Rock is Augury Rock. If they wanted to depict Augury rock in a piece of concept art, they would have done so. Beyond the fact that it is a vertical tower of stone, it bears little resemblance to one of the major features in Guild Wars. It would be like depicting the Ascalonian wall as a gigantic chain link fence. The scale is off, and the details are wrong. Where is the rubble from it splitting open? Where is the canyon it sits in? The topography wouldn't change that much in 250 years whether a heavy dragon had sat on it or not.

My supposition would be that it is a new feature. If that's the case, then that's not necessarily Grothmar or the Crystal Desert dragon, either. For all we know it might be Arah, or even some unknown tower in the blazeridge mountains. Or someplace on the other side of Giant's Basin for that matter.

There's not much you can glean from that piece, but I have to say I think if it were meant to be Augury rock/Mesa, then it would be depicted as such in a better way.

Despite the fact that, as I pointed out in the quotes I repeatedly used, it would appear that Grothmar's corruption, unlike Malchor, Drakkar, and Primordus, is constant, and uncontrolled.

I suspected as much. However, unlike the Gods, which seem to become drained of energy after a large exertion of magic, or energy, the Ancient Dragons do not. Although, it depends entirely on what one views as a large exertion of magic. Due to the nature of all sentient species on Tyria not radiating magic despite being capable of using magic, suggests that if they did desire to do so for some reason, it would be a large exertion to do so. As such, it would seem that the limitation for the Ancient Dragons is much, much higher. Especially considering it might be viable to assume the Asura have been utilizing the magic radiating from Primordus for quite a few years now.

Even if that isn't correct, they've been asleep for millennia, so they're probably brimming with magic and energy.

Only Grothmar, is what I had meant. I imagine the uncertainty is due to using Ancient Dragon, rather than Grothmar, due to the uncertainty of whether or not it is, in fact, Grothmar. Also, how precisely can we say Tyria is completely limited to the laws of physics as we understand them? We do not, in our world, see rocks naturally floating, and we haven't discovered any method within our understanding of physics to make large buildings, without an inefficient amount of energy, float.

Magic is the wrench in the cogs of physics in a fantasy world. True, Tyria does abide by most physical laws, as we know them, but, there are several aspects that obviously undermine them as well. Dimensions, ease of teleportation, and flotation of objects. All of these, commonplace in the universe Tyria resides in, but not nearly so in ours. In the case of the latter two they are due to magic, which, because of that, shows its ability to undermine our understanding of physics, as we cannot even do what Tyrians can do with as much ease.

Even ignoring that obvious fact, the Ancient Dragons already display a characteristic that as far as I know we haven't observed in any creature. That of hibernation for millennia, in an ever changing environment.

Or they simply utilize a means beyond our comprehension, that does not require an immense amount of intake. Or, they utilize some unusual method that we would not first think of, that has stored immense amounts of energy over the millennia to allow them to wreak the havoc they are now wreaking. In fact, this could be how they have survived throughout the millennia, linking themselves with something that stored the energy to either reactivate them or keep them alive despite possible disasters that could harm them.

Energy cannot come out of nothing in our world. As I have pointed out earlier, magic is the wrench in the cogs of physics.

We can, however, argue based on details of information we know about what may be depicted in the artwork, such as the dragon in this case. We can also argue on the facts of the artwork, such as that it is of a dragon on a rock outcropping with a strange metal disc or disc-shaped engraving or metal sphere*, that there are what appear to be mountains in the distance, there are birds flying, it takes place on a plain that's sky is overcast (cloudy) which could be viewed as desert-like or of grasslands, the dragon is gigantic and has lightning coming from its mouth, and its wings appear to be foggy, misty, smokey. These are all facts of the artwork, that one can observe. Although I'm sure you're bound to say that that is what you meant by the description of the work, or that that is a description of the work, which, in the latter you are right.

*Which almost appears to burrowed into it, or drilled into it, sort of.

Oh, I know, but that's the nature of straw arguments. Everyone has a straw or a few straws they're grasping at, and each of them is easily capable of catching flame, and being left with only ashes.

Small details like the decline in land would probably be, overall, ignored if the focus is the dragon and the giant rock. The only real thing that supports this for not being "Mesa" would be the giant dial/plate.

Like I said before, I'd rather not suppose there is a 6th dragon - though possible. It being in the Blazeridge Mountains makes sense except that the immediate area seems to be at least semi-flat. (And a side note: "Grothmar" would be the Desert Dragon, that much has been figured out, and if they aren't, then "Grothmar" disappears from the face of the Movement of the World).

.... Do you just ignore things I say? The continuation of the thought that you quoted is in the next portion you quoted. They are, in reality, the same thing, the first cannot be fully understood without the second. In short: The first thing was a dependent clause which is attached to the second which is a independent clause.

There is absolutely no support for that. Just as there is no support for "Grothmar" to use his powers continuously.

Due to a bigger size, the amount of energy stored and used would naturally be in a larger amount than most. The higher the mass, the more the energy needed to move said mass.

I don't see how "Grothmar" can be a single exception. And as for your "floating rocks" - even magic requires energy, and magic affects other energy (kenetic, potential) which then then allow things to levitate, creations of other things, etc. It's really actually simple and the only thing you need to truly prove that magic is subject to physics is the energy bar. And I'm sure you'd ask "how can magic create things and still be subject to physics?" - Simple: Magic changes atoms in masse which would then change mass (such as air even) into other substances. Teleportation is also explainable, as is multiple dimensions (that is even explained in theoretical science). After my last post, I was considering making a little thread on this.

Doubt the first to be possible, would be rather... cheesy for the explanation - if ever given - to simply be "by unknown means" or "by unfathomable means." I would be much more inclined to think they have a direct link to the Mists and/or an unlimited (by the bloodstones) access of magic.

*points above*

For the side note: That is why I believe(d) that the "plate" would be from when Augury Rock opened.As for the things you point out, some of those, such as the birds, "foggy wings," and mountains would be what I mean by description of the work. We cannot say whether or not the birds are twisted, we cannot say if the wings are fog-based (which is possible) or if they are simply hidden, and we cannot say those are mountains or clouds in the background. And as those are uncertainties, we cannot properly argue on that.

The annoying part of it is that you knew that, and you continued, then called me out for it while not admitting it yourself.

There's a thought... what if the radiation is the result of the 'battery' being full? Possibly the Ancient Dragons have some means of absorbing magic, but whatever that means is they can't stop it from happening, instead simply excreting their excess into the world around them. If the dragon uses magic fast enough itself, it can eventually be drained, but if it doesn't, eventually the magic its not using begins to be given off to be soaked up by whatever unfortunate wildlife is nearby.

This might explain why Grothmar is being particularly corruptive - Primordus and Malchor have likely been using their powers deliberately to establish their domains (which may involve deliberately corrupting creatures for their armies), but since Grothmar hasn't been wielding its power, it's just sweating it off instead.

On that matter, it'll be interesting to see if the ancient dragons attract Riders...

And for all we know, that might be one of the most essential aspects about the piece.

Possibly. I have a case of tunnel vision whenever it comes to arguments sometimes. Besides that, they still seem easily capable of being understood independently of one another.

So..Abaddon isn't an example of a God becoming drained of energy? Sure, he was beaten down by the other Gods when they joined forces, but certainly even the Gods are not incapable of becoming weary. Also, we don't even know what Grothmar's powers are, we just know it corrupts everything around it. At least in the case of other Ancient Dragons we had an example of their powers. Malchor, reanimating the dead and making the living into draconic/undead minions. Primordus, twisting the earth and probably magma itself into its minions. Drakkar, seemingly, twisting the ice and snow into monstrosities. Deep Sea Dragon, twisting the water into tentacled horrors.

Each have a certain element (no pun intended) about them associated with the surrounding area. Grothmar has nothing to show for itself in that area.

Except that we're not just talking about movement. These things are twisting the world around them quite literally into their own personal piece of reality.

And it doesn't necessarily need to be an exception. Whichever way you look at it, to use radioactive terms, the Ancient Dragons are hot. They're just brimming with magic or energy, whichever you prefer. The only difference would be that some utilize theirs willingly and have it under control, and for some reason, Grothmar would appear not to. No matter how you look at the Ancient Dragons, it seems heavily implied from the Movement that they don't just stop amassing forces if they have the necessary resources available.

Also, flotation is the key example of an issue with the laws of physics. What, exactly, is providing it with the energy to remain suspended in the air? And assuming the Wizard's Tower in Kessex Peak is still floating, and the Sebelkeh Basilica in Vabbi is still floating, what's their energy source? You don't just keep something floating like that without an energy source.

Energy and magic need not be inextricably intertwined. Magic might be a completely different form of energy, similar in nature in certain areas, and completely different in others.

Edit: Also, forgot to add this in as I was typing up this part of my response, I'm well aware of the dimensions being explainable in theoretical science. However, according to some, some of the dimensions are absolutely minuscule. Impossible to see with the naked eye.

Do I need to watch the cinematic again? Unless my memory took a severe beating, I seem to recall that it cracked open via lightning strikes from the sky hitting three points, not a disc or sphere coming from the sky and burrowing into it.

That's because my main concern wasn't with calling you out, if it had been I probably would have admitted it, but rather with getting on to arguing the points you were making. I'm the type of person who throws a stick of dynamite at the wall of a bank, and gets on to whatever my objective is within it, and then maybe goes back to get the money like a normal person.

Which could also easily be added to the Mesa in GW2.

His "energy" never really is drained. Just his limit of magical use is, well, limited even more.

If "Grothmar" is this "stormlord" then his "element" would be air and lightning, which is associated with all areas. Ice is limited to the Shiverpeaks, lava is limited to underground and the Ring of Fire Islands, water is limited to, well, water. Mlachor is limited to... life? :/ If it wasn't for Malchor, I'd so easily be able to say the dragons limit themselves to just one element each.

And what you quoted kind of goes into the physics theory, and the theory continuation which i need to write up. But basically, more size requires more energy, more energy means more usability of magic, thus more magic used by them. Of course, for all the energy used, they must intake as much energy as well.

Just because they are not known to stop, doesn't mean they don't. If they don't, then there is no way we'd be able to fight them, as they'll just corrupt our characters.

*points at new thread* What I find the most, is that people are thinking of magic as an energy source, when it is not.

... the lightning hit the three symbols, and I never said something burrowed into it >_> But that it existed in there prior and after we opened it, we allowed it to be seen. Something in your mind seemed to have taken a beating to not get that...

And I still fail to see what the point of that would be. "Guys, we have a golden chamber in a massive mesa in the middle of a desert, what else can we do with this?" "Well, we never actually showed them the exterior of the chamber, and they cracked the rock off, so.." "Giant metal disc or sphere! By the Gods, you're brilliant!" "But..What? Well, we do already have a golden chamber in a giant mesa.."

I'm really, really, just getting the feeling our views on magic and energy are completely different. You don't get chained down if you aren't beaten to a point that you're either unconscious, or you're just drained of energy. Which, by the way, wasn't just the neighborhood bully and his friends beating up a nerd, as we both know. It was a war across two continents..Or..One supercontinent, whatever you want to call Tyria and Elona's geographical relationship.

That's a bit of a big if, though, as I'm sure you know. It's putting far too much weight on the concept art.

Because every God and Goddess is definitely going to be the size of Abaddon or the Ancient Dragons. Kormir already disproves that by her appearing our size, and the other accounts of the Gods, such as Lyssa appearing amongst humans disprove this, and I doubt Balthazar would be gigantic as he played a game of Nui against Kaolai. So, how does one explain the Gods and Goddesses not being gigantic, yet having, as you say, more usability of magic? Or is that for your theory continuation?

Just because no one knew of a way to protect themselves from the corruption then, doesn't mean they haven't devised a method to do so now. The argument can work both ways.

At least so you think. Magic would appear to be easily capable of being an energy source, as shown by Asuran technology. Sure, magic may just be a manipulation of the Mists, using the Mists as its energy source, but that's just an idea, as we don't completely understand the Mists. We could be completely off.

You knew what I meant. And I never said you said something burrowed into it, that's just an observation I've made of the artwork. However, what I was getting at, is that you said from when it opened, by my observation, that would suggest not lightning, but this metal thing coming from the heavens and burrowing into it. Regardless, I see the point you're making, and it still seems like a, why? sort of thing to me. Isn't a golden chamber within the mesa absurd enough?

For all we know, it could just be the artists' decoration, no discussion and just one man's idea for some reason which may or may not be put into the game with a lore reason behind it.

For Tyria/Elona, I prefer supercontinent, just like Eurasia. But on the case of how Abaddon was chained down, well, I was focusing on when he was chained down, but the effects of the chains on him. When he was beaten, most likely, down to the point of inability to fight anymore. However, he would easily regain what he lost, unless it was limited somehow, which is where what I said comes in, his power - the amount of magic usable - was limited. Think of the chains as a magical object which puts a hex on the chained person. Along with that, it would have to continuously use magic, and thus absorb magic. Best source of the energy? The chained person, who would regain energy through rest and, in Abaddon's case, from the Mists. In other words, those chains, if I am correct, would be deadly to most people, and only not so on gods and, possibly, the Ancient Dragons.

Not really, it's more of saying "if that is 'Grothmar' then we can assume he is associated with air, if that isn't, then we know nothing more."

A common concept in various other kinds of ideas of how "power is represented by size" is that those of immense power can "show" it in a manner that it would be perceived as much weaker than it would be believed.

Putting that into GW context: A God's size is naturally the size we see Abaddon, however they have the ability, through magic, to change their own appearance. The Ancient Dragons have this ability, but perhaps not the desire or mind to do so. Perhaps, in the case of Kormir, she was restricting herself to her old body immediately for our conversation. However, the thought comes to my mind: If kept to a small size for too long, it may be possible that the body would fail to contain all the power of a god.

Grothmar's corruption is most recent, there is no hint in the Movement of such occuring. Though possible for such a method to appear in GW2 itself, perhaps even as a blessing from the gods.

Technically, any reaction from the use of energy, can be energy. I merely meant people view magic as being an alternative source when it is instead a alternative reaction which will continue energy to other things - much like riding a bicycle, or rowing a boat. One's own movement is caused by energy (which has its own sources), and one's own movement is also a source of movement, thus the movement is energy.

Not if it was instead rock which, through the ages, rose around a building. In which case, the "disc" would be a portion of this building, specifically, the exterior of the "golden chamber". After all, the walls we see are not carved rock, but something extremely similar to what we see in the Hall of Heroes. Which, if anything, can be viewed as architecture of the gods. Thus, if the "disc" is in fact a design of the exterior of a building which got covered by rock and earth, is it really that absurd?

And no, the building thing actually wouldn't be grasping at straws. The existence of the chamber means it was burrowed into before, meaning something was added to the exterior later - naturally or not - which would be what we see destroyed by lightning. We also see non-natural, or even carved, walls inside, which means there would be a non-natural exterior to this chamber, which means, if inside a rock could mean that the rock was added after wards.

Checkmate.

And here we are..

I'd hardly call that a small detail however, that is a major topographical feature that dominates the mesa and defines it. If nothing else it's where the access stones are; it's how you get in. Not including that would be a major faux pas on the part of a professional artist trying to depict an established feature.

I'd rather not either.

I was just trying to illustrate that we don't have anything that ties that piece to the Mesa, or even any part of GW that we may or may not recognize. It's an ambiguous landscape with a analog to the Augury Mesa and very little else.

Now that is what I was looking for! I had been reviewing that cinematic from a recording I'd made but I didn't think of going in and look up. >_<

To play devils advocate though I suppose it might be the backside of the mesa we see in that concept piece. :/

Ugh. Do we really want to go that direction, though?

Also, for anyone who wants to check that out, if you have a Monk, top out Protection Prayers and bring Pacifism, and if you're any other profession, well, just do the same. Keeps the Doppelganger at bay while you examine the place. Interesting note that isn't displayed by my screenshots, there's a giant hole in the center of the Mesa's top. Which begs the question of how there's a sharp pointed bit of rock that the dragon has its claw next to, if it's the Mesa.

Any good lorist takes in all possibilities. Like I said that it might not be the Mesa, it is equally possible it is not the front.

Or you can bring Binding Chains and cast it first if a Ritualist.

Good question indeedy. I guess we'll only really know (due to the possibility of the artist changing the looks due to a not-so-every-angle-view of the Mesa) until it is confirmed or denies to be GW2 concept art.

Lorist isn't a word. Finally took the time to check that. Anyway, taking in all possibilities, true, but when other data presents itself that would seem to counter it, it should be discounted. This being the case, the hole in the top of the Mesa would appear to completely disprove the possibility of what is depicted in the concept art being the Mesa. Unless, of course, we want to assume someone stuffed a spire of rock into it.

And besides that..A mesa is normally called so for its flat surface at the top.

me⋅sa
–noun
a land formation, less extensive than a plateau, having steep walls and a relatively flat top and common in arid and semiarid parts of the southwestern U.S. and Mexico.

Which, all things considering, the Mesa seen in-game does fit this description prior to engaging in the Trial of Ascension. And even if we want to ignore all this, and just say the possibility still remains due to the perspective it is viewed from, we can easily do as I did, and go in-game, and examine it from the back.

Either way one looks at it, the outcrop of rock depicted in that concept art does not have a "relatively flat top."

Lots of words are made up daily, give me a correct word aside from scholar and I'll use it.

I personally don't think anyone aside from yourself and a few select individuals would go into such attempts to look at the shape of the Mesa to make a drawing of it. To think an artist would start the mission just to look behind him and up would be... silly, in my opinion. As such, to state whether or not it is the Mesa from the hole which is only seen in one location, and at an obscure view at that, would be, as I said, silly.

Regarding the top, this is the only thing you have said that is most legitimate for reasoning. However, as you pointed out, it would be a mesa before the opening, one may view it as no longer a mesa (whether that is a lack of a top or a more not-so-flat top) and draw it not as a mesa, but as a giant rock.

But meh, debating a concept art does get us no where anyways (the more this goes on, no matter who's side is more convincing, I'm getting tempted to close this thread as, like I said, debating a concept art is getting us no where).

To me it looks like something equivalent of the Great Destroyer-a general to one of the "big" dragons- and that does look like Augury Rock. I haven't seen it in a while but it does resemble it a little bit.

I highly disagree. The Great Destroyer was far from that size, and it was made out of the elements as well. Though we don't know what kind of "directly made" minions of "Grothmar" or "Malchor" are, I'd assume their generals would be like the small grunts in terms of what they're made of. If this is "Grothmar," then it is highly implied "Grothmar" will have domain over the air and lightning. I suspect something similar to the djinn, but shaped more like destroyers or some other kind of monster - that is, Destroyers made from air and lightning (where as the Djinn are beings made of water, fire, and lightning - the non-solid elements). I also assume the Deep Sea Dragon's minions to be similar to this as well.

Perhaps we should treat it (if it even is GW2 art) as an object that we have yet to see somewere near the blazeridge mountains. I've had a look around Augury Rock and i am finding it hard to place the disc anywere - the only way i see it actually being there would be in the rock itself near the back - meaning the dragon would of destroyed the front part.

As for it being a general....i would certainly like to see the dragon that thing was commanded by. Considering it takes up half the sky without its wings,,,,

What's wrong with researcher?

Regardless of looking at the in-game example, if you told me to draw a mesa, I'd draw it with a flat top. I think anyone who knows what a mesa is would do the same.

Also, wouldn't it make even more sense for Grothmar's minions, if it has them, to be something like a more twisted Sand Elemental?

Same thing I see wrong with scholar I guess - too broad a term and not that specific. Lore researcher would work, but then, lorist is easier to type. Let it be slang or not.

Unless one knows the mesa was partially destroyed, thus bringing into question whether or not the top would still be flat...

I was saying that if it was a dragon of air and lightning. If it would have to be a corruptor of nature (like how Malchor seems to be a corruptor of life and death) - and thus would have corrupted versions of most/all Crystal Desert life (centaur, elementals, wurms, forgotten, scarabs, devourers, drakes, minotaurs, and riders).

Now there's a larger possibilty that it's a GW concept art after all. I hope it's "Grothmar".