Defy Pain is a drag

I think Anet should just nerf Qqing of the skill(less) lamers that try to nerf somthing that isn't OP'd to begin with. Let me re-iterate: *coughs twice* Blind, Cripple, Weakness, Empathy, Faintheartedness, Insidious Parasite, Hex Snares, Ineptitude/Clumsiness, Any Assassin with high damage bonus skills (i.e.: death blossom, BoS, etc.), need I continue?

So stop Qqing and quit failing to bring your Rock versus their Scissors. Don't BE a rock, USE a rock!

Do we really have to go over why rock/paper/scissors is a very bad way for a game to be balanced? I'm pretty sure we've been down this road before.

Most MMO and RTS games are balanced by rock, paper, scissors. It's a perfectly fine vision of game balance, though not the one that serves to minimize whining best.

On topic, hit the tab key and throw a heal on whatever the defy pain warrior is futilely whacking at.

lol, if you're an ele, go dual attunement and blind + cracked armor + weakness his ass, and there goes their *gasp* efectivity

this



seriously, asking for a nerf when you're obviously too stupid to change target is lame

They are rock/paper/scissored by things that can be changed during play. I.E this buildable unit counters another unit. Things that cannot be changed after play has begun (such as team builds in the case of GW) are terrible to have balanced around rock/paper/scissors. You do not want the game to be over the moment it starts, that makes for a terribly poor balanced competitive game.

No, does NOT need to be nerfed because:

: GW is about freedom, let someone tank if they want
: Removes and elite such as eviscerate, battle rage, primal rage etc.
: Many counters already such as degeneration, hexes etc.
: Sure it takes longer to kill them, but maybe its a skill to be used for a strategic purpose? Basic PvP is to avoid focusing on the tanks and go for the casters so it shouldn't even be that big of a problem

Anyways please do not nerf because it is one of my favorite skills due to it just being an all around fun skill and I believe it is 'needed' so warriors can fit the role of tank, if they wish.

A: the only place defy pain works in PvP is places where res happens automatically(AB, FA, JQ) and you have little or no suport. If you need a res, that means you have other allies near you, meaning you don't need your own healing, meaning tankingis stupid and you should focus on whupass, meaning if everybody but you dies you still lose the match.

B: [Defy Pain][Dismember][Body Blow][Agonizing Chop][Bulls Strike][Frenzy][Rush][Lions Comfort]

^decent bar in AB, FA and JQ with everything specified. If you're feeling gutsy take out agonize or BB for a shadow step or shock or Cyclone axe in JQ. Not epic DPS like WE or super spike like standard shock axes, but effective at assaulting cap points or hunting monks that like to sit in the NPCs with heal area. Then there's those annoying jerks with he spears, but you can just run from them if you're good at dodging projectiles. Basically defy just makes you invincible VS NPCs, kinda like touchers but slightly more effective VS players.

C: The only really broken thing about Defy Pain is in FA where a tank can sit in front of a turtle and stall it by itself, but that's not the skill's problem, that's an AI glitch. I've killed Defy warriors with a hammer warrior. I had help, but they can't get juiced if their on their ass for like 6 seconds, and if you pin them when they aren't charged they "death spike" themselves when their defy runs out.

Yeah, I had the same thought re: defy pain and axe bars.

Elites on axe bars are pretty interchangeable, so you could just toss in Defy Pain and have a bar. It would not be a maxed bar, but it wouldn't be terrible.

And, hey, it's worth it so's you can GO BALLS DEEP.

Reverend Dr. got it right.

Still, there is no problem with Defy Pain as is that is not harmful in any way. Its only redeeming quality is tanking turtles in Aspenwood and soaking up the attacks of stupid players. They still die to degen and more than 1 player.

I have not seen them used for tanking in PvE yet, if the "tanking" strategy is applied at all, even better and more specialized tank builds are usually used.


This skill hurts nobody, but as a very specialized skill it has the potential to cause harm in conjunction with future skill changes.

I would still leave it as it is. I rarely use this skill, but the few times I still play my warrior I like to use it in Fort Aspenwood just for laughs - there are people that really waste precious time on killing defy pain warriors!

Defy Pain is just a sad excuse for an elite skill in PvP. The pvp game is way too fast paced to have a defy pain warrior. You might not succeed in killing the warrior, but if you can wipe the rest of the team, it really wouldnt matter. The defy pain warrior cannot pump as much damage as the Eviscerate warriors or the Whirling Axe warriors, and part of having a good defense is making sure your monks have enough energy, and to ensure that, you have to kill certain offensive targets such as eles to make sure monks do not have to use the energy to heal constantly. With a defy pain warrior, you simply cannot pump enough damage. Sure you can frenzy all you want, but you can do that on anyother warrior anyways if you arent bad. So I personally do not care about defy pain in pvp, since if you are dumb enough to run it, then im smart enough to not be attacking warriors (your not suppose to do that much anyways).

In PvE? good skill for tanking i guess?

In my opinion, just nerf it for PvP.

Take RA for an example. Sure, it's a place for using stupid builds, but people sometimes go there just to burn a few minutes when they might not have much time. The skill is nothing but an annoyance, you can swap targets, but get this: In gametypes that aren't based on points, you're going to have to kill them somehow, and the huge defense gained from the skill just prolongs games pointlessly. You can interrupt Healing Signet, and they can cancel it freely without any loss too.

That's what ALL SKILL BALANCES consist of.

"Onoes! Mending is just tooooo strooooong!"

-July 4th Skill Balance Update-

Warrior/Monks
* Mending: Decreased pips of regen to 0...1, increased enargy cost to 25 and recharge to 90 seconds and costs 2 pips of enargy to maintain. If/when stripped, the Wammo blows up.

Y' dig?

LOL

Honestly people, I don't see the problem with Defy Pain. Just ignore them. If they are using Defy Pain it means they have sacrificed a good dps elite for a pve tanking skill.

i believe one of the devs mentioned regretting having too many skills in guild wars. the implication being there will be fewer but well used/balanced skills in gw2.


defy pain is a free win in RA, just be patient. spend your time trolling the defy pain user if you want.

ignore in ab

ignore in jq, or cap a shrine or lead the war into the shrine.... the npcs will kill the nub lol.

I would be sort of disappointed to not see a lot of skills in GW2. What makes GW1 unique is the fact that there is so many skills to choose from, like a card deck. While its true that its probably hard to balance, its just a negative side to its pvp system. Every mmo has some sort of negative, whether it be a notorious grinding fest or overpowered classes.

People don't like a skill because they don't know how to get around it, so they cry for a nerf. Warriors are high hp, high armor, hard to kill characters who get in close and do a good amount of damage against low armor opponents.

Learn to switch targets. Learn to run away. Defy Pain is fine as it is. Just because its a useful skill doesn't mean it should be rendered less useful.

I'm gonna make sure to run defy pain with my knockdown build now when I pvp, just for you people.

/notsigned.


What makes guildwars unique is it has more useless skills than any other mmo. Seriously, just going off the monk, how many condition removal skills can you fit on a bar? How many different heal spells do you need on a bar? Most of them suck. Elementalists have too many damage spells that are never used by anyone other than those players who don't know better. How many earth armor bonus spells do you need on a bar?

Either remove all the useless skills, or allow two elites on a bar. One for each profession and then maybe most of the skills would be useful. Even then we would still end up with over 100 skills that no one uses.

When you make a card deck, lets say magic the gathering. You don't build a 60 card deck with 20 useful cards and 20 pointless cards because they get in the way and it takes you longer to draw what you need to win. You make a 40 card meta deck in which every card you pull is going to hurt your opponent big time and help you out a lot. I used to win dozens of games in a row because too many people don't know the first thing about deck building.

If characters were decks and you cluttered your bar up with "filler" skills, you would lose everytime because I'm going to only use what I need. I don't care what the skills called, what the art looks like or how popular it is. If its the best choice, it goes on the bar. If not, then I'v already forgotten about it and moved on to something useful. Your channel fireball combo got denied by my counter spell and now you have 1 life left. GG.

My 1/1 goblin speed deck will beat your 5/5 dragon deck any day.

If your team has a snare, the warrior isn't going to get adrenaline, therefore he's not going to use defy pain. If not, then you might as well nerf IMS's too, because there's nothing more annoying than runners at the end of a match. The huge defense gained from the ability to flee from your party just prolongs games pointlessly. But that logic isn't great, which is why neither are getting nerfed.

The primary difference is that IMS skills can be used as an active defense mid-game anyway and can be used to push out more damage. There is also bodyblocking and pushing your enemy into a corner. But I guess in a way you're right, because people suck. One man's fun is another man's misery.

It's great for farming...but I don't use it otherwise.

Who said the point was to fill up your bar with skills that have no synergy with one another? Any skill in this game can be that way if you don't understand the details of the skill system. My point of mentioning how all the skills make the game unique is that you are free to create a build that works extremely well. Its all about trying to come up with skills that are in perfect synergy. Its impossible to say what skills are useful and useless because I doubt that every possible synergy has or ever will be discovered.

For 'me", trying to create that perfect synergy of 8 out of so many skills is WHAT makes the game. If I wanted a limited amount of skills that didn't leave room for this then I would go play WoW and be happy with the talent trees. If someone is dumb enough to put 8 different types of condition removals on their bar then that is their problem. Don't blame it on the system for allowing such thing, blame it on the player. When I create a build it often feels like playing the lotto. All the numbers have the potential to be a winner, its just the combination and order of them that makes that potential into a reality.

First of all I have to laugh at the premise of this thread because defy pain isn't used in any serious pvp arenas and nor is it a problem in any serious pvp arenas(quite laughable in fact). Anything pretty much goes in ab, ra and the like. I feel the need to point out that other annoying tank builds are quite common in these places(i.e. terratank). If you think defy pain is harder to counter, you're completely wrong. Standard anti-melee counters work on defy pain warriors as well as adrenaline denial. Something I don't see in pvp too often is a certain illusion magic skill called soothing images, which could probably be used in ab to good effect.

I also feel inclined to say that the amount of anti-melee conditions/hexes etc. are staggering compared to the anti-caster tools. Casters have a clear advantage in being able to effectively use skills without being hampered by conditions and hexes--this is why many pve monks never bring removal for either, which is mind boggling when you realize what martial weapon classes(yes, even warriors) are capable of.. but that's another topic.

Withering off the topic of Defy Pain slightly, Soothing Images isn't used against Warriors anyway, so what makes you think Defy Pain will make it usable when one of the main strengths of a Warrior is adrenaline anyway? Now we've got no Warriors' Endurance, Soothing Images completely wrecks a Warrior. But why isn't it used? Why bring it up just because of Defy Pain?

Do you not think counters are already widely used? Why not talk blind instead, which is a lot more versatile than Soothing Images?

Now caster tanks, let's look at the list of counters that work for them and not for Warriors...

Enchantment removal.
Interruption.
Knockdowns.

All of the three have more usesb, and can easily counter a caster tank while being effective out of that scenario - not to mention that caster tanks often sacrifice mobility by a large margin in order to tank.

You have my agreement here. As far as prevention on melee goes, I'd say that quite a bit can hit any melee hard. Still though, I think that Defy Pain is only good for prolonging games and griefing which sets it apart.

Terratanks tend to bring obsidian flesh, which makes enchant removal slightly harder, but interruptions and KD still work fine. Interestingly, these tools work on defy pain warriors as well. I used a dev hammer warrior with disrupting dagger and no self-heal to kill a defy pain tank not more than two days ago. The KDs prevented his adrenaline gain, the weakness screwed his "damage" and DD prevented his heals.. he went down in a hurry. Granted he had no counters for me. If you're using defy pain in pvp, you're most likely a pve chump who doesn't know how to use a warrior effectively and will not bring proper counters.

As for soothing images, anything goes in low-end pvp arenas, so this was merely a suggestion for countering defy pain as well as any other adrenaline based builds(as you mentioned we no longer have to deal with warrior's endurance). Considering what's abound in AB and likewise, I really don't see why it would hurt to bring it if you have an illusion magic build... but that goes back to the silly premise of this thread again, doesn't it?

Who really cares about defy pain nubz in pvp?

Easy to counter, easy to overlook. In AB i usually run right past them.

Defy Pain is useless in pvp, and fairly good for tanking in pve. That's all there really is to it. If you've been around pvp enough, which I don't honestly believe you have, you'd know it was useless.

Sympathetic/Ancestor's Visage are also available (and those actually have seen use in PvP before). Although blind or miss hexes is probably better since that can be used against rangers, etc as well.

Pretty sure I on the other hand, have been around in PvP long enough, and the current Defy Pain does have it's uses in lower arena's (AB, RA, ...).

It's good for some relaxed messing around, but in GvG i doubt it'll ever see any serious play. There are better elites on a warrior.


Oh yeah, if you need skills like Defy Pain in PvE, you seriously s*ck *ss.

That doesn't mean it's useful.. unless you think being a nuissance or conquering low-end pvp arenas is important. I could probably take a generic axe or sword build with defy pain and do reasonably well, but it seems to have this way of painting a big target on your back because people become determined to kill you, despite the fact that killing you will not accomplish anything. That's really the problem here, people who fret about killing you and your 900 health or whatever. If you know the direct counters(of which there are *many*), it's no problem, but if you're some casual pver who drops into ab, then it might seem difficult.

but i have to make a point about low-end pvp.. it's intentionally designed to be random as pertaining to team success, so why should anyone care?

Defy pain works good in pve considering the amount of hard hitting, high level foes who'll spank your melee butt if you're not careful. I dare you to bring your healing sig/frenzy combo(as seen in your avatar) to some of these pve places.

A point I tried to make a while back is that Defy Pain is a skill that is either going to be useless or a part of a very undesirable gimmick. It is one of very many skills that fit that category.

It doesn't need to be nerfed, but it also doesn't need to be in the game at all.

You are a damned dirty liar sir, and I challenge you to HONORABLE 1V1!

Defy Pain has a use, ergo it is not useless. That use is GOING BALLS DEEP!!!

ok i fite u we have honerbl dual

I think that anybody who has played the first game will strongly disagree with your complaint.
Since Guild Wars Guru never updates its skill list, here's the old description:
Defy Pain {Elite} - Skill
For 12 seconds, you have an additional 90-258 health and an additional 20 AL.

Sure it's 12 seconds, but by god that is much harder to maintain than 20, and it's weaker than the current form.
So I don't think it's going to be changed.

Yes, this is primarily a Factions pvp/RA issue. Just because a skill isn't used much in HA/gvg doesn't mean it isn't a problem. If you're here to show people how awesome you are at a dead game's pvp and how they're scrubs because they play lesser forms of pvp, go somewhere else. This isn't the time or the place.

Switching targets off a DP war isn't the issue here. Of course you'd kill a bs tank last. I'm not saying they're a huge threat, but they do still accomplish objectives. Also, warriors have the best single target dps in the game, and losing their elite for defense doesn't hurt that as much as you think (those nH gvg matches are a great example of DP in the hands of good players). Being able to accomplish pvp objectives + still doing decent dps = it is just as important to kill them as anyone else.

What is the issue here is that it is a drag to encounter them in pvp. Having to bring hard counters for a silly tank build is a drag (especially in a party size 4 or random party format). Having to stand around DPSing them 4v1 for 15-20 seconds or leaving them alive because you have no hard counter is a drag. Watching your scrub allies waste time trying to kill them in the middle of a skirmish is a drag.

The bottom line is that an instant activation, unremovable, easily maintainable, 20 second duration defensive skill as powerful as DP simply should not exist. It doesn't break pvp in the sense of being objectively overpowered, it breaks pvp in the sense of pacing and gameplay.

Lastly, I don't think anyone is suggesting nerfing it for PvE. Make it a BFG 9000 in PvE for all I care.

/notsigned

less QQ more hex and condis....

win! 12345678

I agree, but many of the skills in gw are pointless and could have been more useful skills with unique benefits instead of variants of the same thing. If you sit back and look at all the skills in the game and then think of all the different effects missing from the game, you will quickly see that gw does indeed have tons of pointless skills. We need less variants and more originals.


PS: Update- Ran defy pain with a hammer KD build and won three in a row in RA before I got bored and quit. The 2nd match, our opponents got so frustrated they left. KD DP war, healing/prot monk, condition ranger and a mesmer FTW!

I agree there is a ton of skills to choose from in GW1, but one of the issues is that not every skill is meant for the Meta. i feel as if the devs are pushing the game one way, thus making certain skills better than others.

THere is always the issue with not being able to use every single skill in PvP, since some skills are just crap in pvp, thus i do find having like a billion skills a major issue.

Bump, this skill is a total nucience that serves no purpose than to waste time.

I've seen screenshots of people getting 5 game win streaks in RA as a warrior with no skills on their bar. Just because it can be used in RA, doesn't mean it's good.

Defy Pain in PvP is used by people who don't know how to play warrior's. They sit there in crappy armour pressing the 1 key hoping that they wont get killed.

I wont ignore the fact that Defy Pain makes a good cover for Frenzy... I played a build with that combo, and I must say it was fun just to stay in Frenzy the whole time while everything around you is beating on you for 0-12 damage a hit and I am at like 880+ HP... Which I will also say makes a good buffer for a skill like Flesh of my Flesh or D-Pact, were half your HP is still 400-somthing... Its not a bad play really, but it does eat into your DPS against other Elites like Evis out there that could be a better choice. I guess its just whatever style you want to play... an Offensive High DPS output, or a Grinding High Defensive Pressure.

So I herd insidyus parsite kills deez