Why doesn't "Save Yourselves" reset Aggresive Refrain?

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

10 Jul 2009 at 19:51 - 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiz12268 View Post
All I know is without a third chant keeping AR up was impossible, despite what people claim. Time for math.

"There's Nothing To Fear!" is 15 energy, 9 with 12 Leadership assuming a party of 6 or more, and recharges in 20 seconds. Paragons have 2 pips of energy regeneration, each pip is equal to 1 energy every 3 seconds meaning a Paragon will regenerate 40 energy a minute. 40 / 3 = 13.33 energy is regenerated every 20 seconds. This means even if you start each zone swapping to a staff and using Aggressive Refrain with "There's Nothing To Fear!" you will eventually regenerate back to full energy if you just stand there and continue to hit "There's Nothing To Fear!" on recharge.

Alternatively as JONO51 said use Aggressive Refrain and "For Great Justice!" when you zone with your 30 energy. When "For Great Justice!" ends you'll have regenerated that 13 energy, wait a few more seconds and use "There's Nothing To Fear!".

Now this is all assuming that you're out of combat and not even using an adrenaline shout to gain even more energy which solves any sort of energy problem anyway. The point is if you are having troubles with your energy then get used to using a second weapon set to borrow energy from. Remember you can swap to the high energy set whenever you need energy.

wiz12268

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

California

Men In Black

10 Jul 2009 at 20:07 - 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post
Time for math.

"There's Nothing To Fear!" is 15 energy, 9 with 12 Leadership assuming a party of 6 or more, and recharges in 20 seconds. Paragons have 2 pips of energy regeneration, each pip is equal to 1 energy every 3 seconds meaning a Paragon will regenerate 40 energy a minute. 40 / 3 = 13.33 energy is regenerated every 20 seconds. This means even if you start each zone swapping to a staff and using Aggressive Refrain with "There's Nothing To Fear!" you will eventually regenerate back to full energy if you just stand there and continue to hit "There's Nothing To Fear!" on recharge.

Alternatively as JONO51 said use Aggressive Refrain and "For Great Justice!" when you zone with your 30 energy. When "For Great Justice!" ends you'll have regenerated that 13 energy, wait a few more seconds and use "There's Nothing To Fear!".

Now this is all assuming that you're out of combat and not even using an adrenaline shout to gain even more energy which solves any sort of energy problem anyway. The point is if you are having troubles with your energy then get used to using a second weapon set to borrow energy from. Remember you can swap to the high energy set whenever you need energy. It isn't possible with just FGJ and TNtF because thier cool downs overlap eventually. You can reset it 3 times I think before eventually they are both on cool down and it doesn't reset. At 12 anyway, at 14 you get 23 seconds I think so it MIGHT be possible with a 14 leadership to do it with just 2.

But like I said add in that 3rd chant and it solves all problems, you GAIN one energy at 12, 2 at 14 when you cast a 5 energy shout/chant, and it will also reset refrain. With 3 chants/shouts there isn't any issue, but I still like the other one better because then there is never an issue with power and it frees up the refrain slot for something else.

You also are thinking backwards, it might only "cost" 9, but you still need all 15 before you can cast it. That is the problem with theory crafting, things might be "worth" X, but you still need Y before you can use them.

Regardless I am back to the original bar I always have used, and from what I can tell it is as "imbagon" as any other "imbagon" bar out there.

Zonk

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2009

Sweden

[LIFE]

P/

10 Jul 2009 at 21:11 - 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiz12268 View Post
It isn't possible with just FGJ and TNtF because thier cool downs overlap eventually. You can reset it 3 times I think before eventually they are both on cool down and it doesn't reset. At 12 anyway, at 14 you get 23 seconds I think so it MIGHT be possible with a 14 leadership to do it with just 2.

But like I said add in that 3rd chant and it solves all problems, you GAIN one energy at 12, 2 at 14 when you cast a 5 energy shout/chant, and it will also reset refrain. With 3 chants/shouts there isn't any issue, but I still like the other one better because then there is never an issue with power and it frees up the refrain slot for something else.

You also are thinking backwards, it might only "cost" 9, but you still need all 15 before you can cast it. That is the problem with theory crafting, things might be "worth" X, but you still need Y before you can use them.

Regardless I am back to the original bar I always have used, and from what I can tell it is as "imbagon" as any other "imbagon" bar out there.
Test before "thinking" your way to results? At 12 Leadership u can equip a high energy set, cast AR + TNtF, then keep using TNtF on recharge for as long as you want (You'll net 5 energy per cycle). Higher Leadership = even easier since AR will be refreshed closer to the recharge of TNtF.

No need for FGJ (or 3rd chant/shout for that matter) to keep AR up at all really

And your bar ain't Imba, it's a SY-spammagon ;p

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

10 Jul 2009 at 22:54 - 44
The duration of AR is more than 20 seconds. The recharge of TNtF is 20 seconds. You use TNtF on recharge. AR is maintained. FGJ can substitute for TNtF when needed, but TNtF can maintain by itself perfectly well. And as said before, with 30 energy, you cast AR and FGJ, then once you regen your energy (you will have 15 just before FGJ runs out) you use TNtF. And yes, you need 15 energy to start using TNtF, but if you switch to a HIGH SET (such as a staff), you can easily gain the 15 energy.

And here's another thing. Your whole argument is on the fact that you think that you have to bring a third chant. Even if you did, that chant can DO DAMAGE AS WELL. Anthem of Flame with regular attributes gives 3 seconds of burning, or 14*3 = 42 damage, more than the majority of attack skills. It also affects other allies as well, you know. And AR actually has several uses as well. Not only does it make you gain more adrenaline, thus meaning more SY and other adren skills, but it also gives you more DAMAGE, something you seem hell bent on putting into your bar.

Just remember that while damage is important, it doesn't do anything while you're face is in the ground. Ensuring your entire party's invincibility is much better than dealing a few extra damage through attack skills.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

11 Jul 2009 at 02:54 - 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiz12268 View Post
All I know is without a third chant keeping AR up was impossible, despite what people claim.
I don't want to be mean here, but you're a fricking moron. There's a dozen people in this thread telling you that they DO maintain AR with just TNtF, and telling you exactly HOW they do it, and yet you persist in saying that it's impossible.

xDusT II

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Melbourne

11 Jul 2009 at 09:10 - 46
Quote:
All I know is without a third chant keeping AR up was impossible, despite what people claim. According to simple mathematics, it is quite possible.

Assuming 12 Leadership, TnTF will last 10 seconds on a 20 second recharge. This means the time difference between each TnTF shout ending is 20 seconds. Even without using a superior leadership headpiece, AR at 12 spec will last 21 seconds, so you still have a 1 second interval in which AR can be permanently maintained with just TnTF.

Energy should also not be a problem, considering you can always switch to a + energy set when TnTF nears recharge and SY should provide 6 energy (assuming 8 man party) every 4 attacks.

WhiteAsIce

WhiteAsIce

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2008

R/

16 Jul 2009 at 08:38 - 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaigoda View Post
Anthem of Flame with regular attributes gives 3 seconds of burning, or 14*3 = 42 damage, more than the majority of attack skills. It also affects other allies as well, you know. Actually, Anthem of Flame only affects party members. It is Anthem of Weariness that affects all allies, including NPCs.

kanuks

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

16 Jul 2009 at 19:03 - 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiz12268 View Post
I use it, but before doing the "imbagon" build I never used them both together.

Soldier's fury is spammable, as soon as it goes off you hit it again, and it only cost 5 power. I used it before with for great justice and it seemed Ok, but I was doing more damage then and not buffing so adrenaline wasn't a major issue then because I was constantly attacking. Soldier's fury is pretty bad for an imbagon. The 1 second cast time = 1 less attack = 2 less adrenaline or even 4 less adrenaline if you use an order necro.

You make it look like you have to cast Aggressive Refrain every fights, which is not the case. You cast it once when entering the zone and then it's over. Basically, it's permanent ias for 0 energy.

If you have a problem maintaining it use a paragon hero with anthem of flame. Hotkey that skill (I use T on my bar) and just spam it on recharge when outside of combat. It's as simple as that.

Having an ias is crucial in hard mode because there is many things that can prevent you from gaining adrenaline efficiently. When your party relies heavily on the +100 armor that you are supposed to provide, a 1 or 2 seconds downtime can mean a party wipe.

The main role of an imbagon is to keep that 100 armor at all time. It can deal some amount of damage because spears are pretty good at that but the 100 armor is the most important thing to focus on, meaning that you might not target the called target because it is using a blocked stance. In that case you want to switch your target to a non blocking ennemy. Paragons are good at that because they are ranged.

Shemsu Anpw

Shemsu Anpw

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2008

Sephirot - Keter

17 Jul 2009 at 15:24 - 49
Why use TNTF when you can use AoW or AoF (Theese are the more commonly used) to reapply AR. While I assume it may be that TNTF is longer so less key mashing. AoF and AoW is fine for reapplying AR even if you wait till the start of actual combat to cast AR the energy generated by SY or even with the new spamable GftE energy fills quickly. Energy is not the reson he can't keep AR up he's either a troll, or its Human error.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

17 Jul 2009 at 16:45 - 50
Because TNTF doesn't require cast time, and has greater benefits - a party heal on end and a bit of damage mitigation to add for a bit of extra defense. Sure, you can bring AoW or AoF... but what do they bring to the table, really?

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

17 Jul 2009 at 17:00 - 51
AoW is a good alternative for Enfeebling Blood (with my setup, I often don't run a curses nec), and AoF deals an extra 42 damage for every physical you have in your party. They aren't exactly great, but they do have uses. I haven't gone through all of EotN yet and don't have EBSoH, so I'm keeping AoF on my bar until I can replace it.

xDusT II

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Melbourne

17 Jul 2009 at 17:38 - 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shemsu Anpw View Post
Why use TNTF when you can use AoW or AoF (Theese are the more commonly used) to reapply AR. While I assume it may be that TNTF is longer so less key mashing. AoF and AoW is fine for reapplying AR even if you wait till the start of actual combat to cast AR the energy generated by SY or even with the new spamable GftE energy fills quickly. Energy is not the reson he can't keep AR up he's either a troll, or its Human error.
Because you don't need AoF or AoW so why not just maintain AR with "TnTF"and use the saved skill slots on something more useful?

Quote:
AoW is a good alternative for Enfeebling Blood AoW isn't nearly as good as it look on paper considering it means you need to waste attack skills on front liners to get anywhere near the coverage EB provides. If you don't need the chant for anything else, I would seriously considering setting a hero to P/N and having a ~6 spec enfeebling blood over AoW.

the slasher

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2009

Knight Of Echovald[KoE]

A/

17 Jul 2009 at 23:27 - 53
seriously, i don't get all your problems... ive been running imbagon ever since my para had access to luxon skills, it was the first thing i did on her... without looking at any forums, just by myself and the help of a friend who gave me the baisic idea of the build, i came up with this:

Go for the eyes!
spear of fury
(random attack skill, i use burning spear)
There's nothing to fear!
save yourselves!
for great justice
focused anger
agressive refrain

i looked at my skills and thought: leadership is important in this build, and i started running this att set:

12+1+1 leader ship
8+1 command
10+1 spear mastery...

ive never ever had problems with energy management, not even at start, and i can easily keep up AR with just TNTF!!... FGJ and focused anger are there for perma +100% or more adrenaline gain, go for the eyes is a great shout for both abit more dmg and energy, and thats it

i see no reason for such a huge talk when it is THIS baisic... ny1 could have reached this conclusion alone...

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

17 Jul 2009 at 23:38 - 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by the slasher View Post
/snip Fail. If you'd actually read the thread, you'd realize only one person is having energy problems, and he's just a total troll. Way to criticize a whole group of people for nothing, because you most likely skimmed though the entire thread. Also, your build doesn't really need so much leadership.

wiz12268

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

California

Men In Black

19 Jul 2009 at 03:08 - 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
I don't want to be mean here, but you're a fricking moron. There's a dozen people in this thread telling you that they DO maintain AR with just TNtF, and telling you exactly HOW they do it, and yet you persist in saying that it's impossible. yeah I am a frigging moron I sit right here with 12 leadership and see that you have to cast 'there is nothing to fear' the exact second that it recharges, if you don't then agressive refrain goes off before it resets.

So while it is POSSIBLE it isn't exactly productive. And if you aren't watching it cool down it isn't going to go off before you lose agressive refrain. So in terms of an in fight bar you better have a third chant, sure you CAN do it with 2, but unless you are botting I doubt you will keep aggressive refrain up on your own by casting it manually.

With 14 in leadership you gain maybe a 1 second window after it resets to cast it.

we can sit here and argue it all night long, but it doesn't take much of a test to see just exactly what it takes to keep aggresive refrain up with just 'there's nothing to fear', and IMO it is just way too much. For great justice might buy you alittle time here or there, but eentually its 45 second timer overlaps, and you will definately need to rely on TNtF.

As for the person who said anthem of flame doesn't reset agressive refrain on you, or only effects allies, you're wrong.

But I always love the guys who troll the forums and try and show that all this stuff is possible, because it is, but it simpley isn't realistic nor is it something you want to do...sit and watch your skill bar for the recharges just to make sure you cast it the exact second it recharges.

Bottomline is aggresive refrain blows and all the debating and arguing and stupidity you want to have over pretty much shows you have little to no independant thought, because I am sure as long as you see it on a guildwiki build it just HAS to be the BEST build going.

Calista Blackblood

Calista Blackblood

Permanently Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

Northern Ireland

Nowhere To Run Nowhere To [Hide]

N/

19 Jul 2009 at 09:40 - 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiz12268 View Post
yeah I am a frigging moron I sit right here with 12 leadership and see that you have to cast 'there is nothing to fear' the exact second that it recharges, if you don't then agressive refrain goes off before it resets.
+3 leadership headpeice swapping before casting AR gives you an even larger window.I'm pretty sure you have been told this already.And unless you go afk and drop AR,you will keep the 26 sec all the time.

Quote:
So while it is POSSIBLE it isn't exactly productive. And if you aren't watching it cool down it isn't going to go off before you lose agressive refrain. So in terms of an in fight bar you better have a third chant, sure you CAN do it with 2, but unless you are botting I doubt you will keep aggressive refrain up on your own by casting it manually. It is easily doable with just TNTF but nobody can tell you this enough.

Quote: With 14 in leadership you gain maybe a 1 second window after it resets to cast it. 14 leadership = 11sec TNTF.If you used a 16L first AR cast I believe a 4-5 second window is achieveable?

Quote: we can sit here and argue it all night long, but it doesn't take much of a test to see just exactly what it takes to keep aggresive refrain up with just 'there's nothing to fear', and IMO it is just way too much. For great justice might buy you alittle time here or there, but eentually its 45 second timer overlaps, and you will definately need to rely on TNtF. Swapping a headpeice is too much?


Quote:
As for the person who said anthem of flame doesn't reset agressive refrain on you, or only effects allies, you're wrong. It affects the party including yourself and does maintain AR

Quote:
But I always love the guys who troll the forums and try and show that all this stuff is possible, because it is, but it simpley isn't realistic nor is it something you want to do...sit and watch your skill bar for the recharges just to make sure you cast it the exact second it recharges. Take some advice and give yourself a casting window.TNTF doesn't have to be cast the second it recharges.At the moment,you're the one thats trolling.

Quote:
Bottomline is aggresive refrain blows and all the debating and arguing and stupidity you want to have over pretty much shows you have little to no independant thought, because I am sure as long as you see it on a guildwiki build it just HAS to be the BEST build going. Most realised a long time ago that wiki builds are generic and not always that good.I'm probably right in assuming AR blows because you can't maintain it?

Zonk

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2009

Sweden

[LIFE]

P/

19 Jul 2009 at 09:52 - 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiz12268 View Post
But I always love the guys who troll the forums and try and show that all this stuff is possible, because it is, but it simpley isn't realistic nor is it something you want to do...sit and watch your skill bar for the recharges just to make sure you cast it the exact second it recharges. Wondering who's trolling or not, the ones being helpful or the guy not listening.. ;p

In what way ain't it realistic to maintain AR with TNtF? Did you EVER use i.e a perma sin? Or would the 1-3 sec window to recast SF be too unrealistic to even be considerred?

Yes, AoF/AoW might help a little, but keeping the skillbar tight to make room for 1 more skill (in my case, EBSoH) will add sooo much more to the party dmg output that AoF/AoW is a dead skill in comparission.

(AND, on a side note, if you want a smoother gameplay you'd actually want a shout to maintain AR so you don't need to stop for a sec every 10 secs)

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

19 Jul 2009 at 09:53 - 58
Why is this even being debated? You don't even need to change headpiece.

1. Throw up AR.
2. Swap into a staff.
3. Cast "TNTF!"
4. "TNTF!" ends, AR restarts.
5. Repeat from 3.

And there you have it. You don't have to stand around and wait, you just have to have a sense of understanding what's going on around you. It doesn't take much to realise "oh, TNTF, let's use it again and redo AR". Now get off your arse, quit saying that it's not realistic or some shit, and if you really struggle pressing a button every 20 seconds, bring AoF or AoW or whatever.

xDusT II

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Melbourne

19 Jul 2009 at 13:45 - 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiz12268 View Post
but unless you are botting I doubt you will keep aggressive refrain up on your own by casting it manually.
Out of curiosity. What do you score on this?

Quote:
we can sit here and argue it all night long, but it doesn't take much of a test to see just exactly what it takes to keep aggresive refrain up with just 'there's nothing to fear', and IMO it is just way too much.
I've never even bothered with buying a headpiece for 16spec and haven't had trouble maintaining AR with just TnTF. Is it really that hard to have a modicum of awareness and a reaction time less than 1 second? If your using a 16 spec headpiece to put up AR then the gap becomes 6 seconds.

Quote:
But I always love the guys who troll the forums and try and show that all this stuff is possible, because it is, but it simpley isn't realistic nor is it something you want to do...sit and watch your skill bar for the recharges just to make sure you cast it the exact second it recharges.
Yeah, screw all those trolls who took the time to provide mathematical proof of why your declarations were false. Considering you don't even seem to acknowledge half the stuff posted in this thread, yet just blindly spout random crap which people keep disproving over and over, then decide to call people trolls, I think your very deserving of any kind of trolling.

To make sure you see this properly. I've made this nice and big so you can't miss it.

IF
YOU
SWAP
TO
A
16
SPEC
HEADPIECE
BEFORE
YOU
USE
AGGRESSIVE
REFRAIN
YOU
ONLY
NEED
TO
HIT
"TNTF!"
WITHIN
6
SECONDS
OF
IT
RECHARGING
TO
RENEW
AGGRESSIVE
REFRAIN.

Quote:
Bottomline is aggresive refrain blows and all the debating and arguing and stupidity you want to have over pretty much shows you have little to no independant thought, because I am sure as long as you see it on a guildwiki build it just HAS to be the BEST build going. There comes a time when you have to realise that if your the only one arguing a certain point despite everyone throwing maths, logic and reason at you which you don't even address, maybe, just maybe, your the ones who's wrong.

Grim Aragorn

Grim Aragorn

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

A/

19 Jul 2009 at 14:13 - 60
just use soldiers fury, more dps and frees up skill spots

on topic, use fall back, adds great support in between battles and makes AR easy to maintain with TnTf

draxynnic

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

21 Jul 2009 at 01:52 - 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
(AND, on a side note, if you want a smoother gameplay you'd actually want a shout to maintain AR so you don't need to stop for a sec every 10 secs) (Aye, been there, done that. Gets really annoying after a while...)

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

21 Jul 2009 at 04:00 - 62
Wiz can take a day off. This thread is done.