So we all like to discuss why PvE is dead...

...Why not discuss ways to make it living again?

Do you think it should be up to players or Anet to create a "PvE Renaissance?"

What are ways that you think a rebirth of PvE play could be achieved? Bonuses/Buffs for playing with other real people? Rewards obtainable only when others are in your party? New, large-scale incentives for creating new characters and playing through missions?

Do you think books and Zaishen quests have had a noticeable impact on PvE play, or are they just short-lived gimmicks? What could be improved about either?

What about Nicholas the Traveler? He seems effective in getting people out into remote locations, why not something similar for missions, or entire campaigns?

Do you think it's worth it to try and save PvE for what it's worth, or are we better off moping until GW2 arrives?

What do you think would most likely make people want to play PvE again, with or without real players?

Would you encourage the idea of non-monetary rewards for PvE play? Like the addition of new emotes or customization abilities as opposed to rewards that serve only to give you money or experience.


Just a few questions to get some ideas stirring. Maybe even just talking about ways we can make PvE better for ourselves will encourage people to want to play it. I already know I want to do some PvE with my monk.

Change the PvP/E split so that all NPCs, mobs and heroes alike, use the pvp versions of skills.

1) Hardcore PvErs will learn the split and not be as surprised/confused in when entering PvP zones, hence less of a barrier.

2) People don't have to whine about mobs getting overpowered or AI broken by functionality changes (as much)

3) The only justification for some of the idiotic PvE buffs is to encourage bad players to play together instead of with heroes. That doesn't help when your rit and necro heroes blow everything up.

Of course it would cause mass QQ and never happen, but I likes it....

On a more constructive note, a better party search system would benefit pvp/e alike.

books are just a way to max titles quicker and boost the effectiveness of the pve skills, while a good intention (and i've filled quite.... too many... books) it's just another reason to grind. and now with heroes the books don't instigate team forming at all. zaishen keys... are a start, but i think all that did was respark the "run me run me!" aspect of the missions. personally i really liked the entire storyline. and i reroll my chars a lot just so i can play them from ascalon (pre and post for non proph chars) all the way through gwen to give that "ahhh" feeling once you've finished a mission for the first time. z-keys are a bonus ^_^. so for me pve hasn't become a "farm until i die, or until they nerf shadowform" slugfest. i still actually enjoy the story. feel free to pm me anytime if you wanna pve through a campaign for fun!

as for encouraging more pve'ers? i think that will have to be implemented into gw2, i think i can speak for alot of people when i say that we have a very refined understanding of this games' mechanics including a knowledge of skill effects/monster placement and patrols/builds that work and gimmick builds effects. the new and fresh stuff hopefully will come with gw2. not much you can add to a 5 year old concept. events are fun but not my thing personally (besides getting the titles ^.^) so to reiterate, the story line is what intrigues me and keeps me playing through. I actually think that anet has it right when they buff a class every quarter in an effort to balance the game, it makes that class interesting again (for me at least) and i can't wait for the derv buff! I'm interested in what other people think though.

New content.
There really is not much the players can change in a persistent world.

It's dead because nobody in the PvE world knows what skill balance is, and continually advocates against a balanced PvE aspect of the game.

All you need to do to bring PvE back:

1. Take out all PvE versions of skills.
2. Take out all PvE skills.

= done.

Agreed, PvE'rs have it so well. Imba PvE only skills, imba PvE skills, titles that effect how much damage you deal or don't receive. Make everything the same as PvP skills, and some new conent (not new quests) and it will be fine. So long as Anet doesn't fold to pressure from the PvE'rs to make things easy again.

3 Words:

RoJ, Perma, Discord

No faction pve skills = massive rage quit
No Eotn pve skills = massive rage quit
PvE skill conversion to PvP = massive rage quit

If anet removed PvE only skills it would make owning Eotn pointless and would be considered a scam. It would also make all that work maxing those titles wasted effort. In other words it would only hurt PvE in the long run.

Also PvP versions are not designed for PvE mobs so it would ruin PvE play.


There is no way to "Fix" PvE when the majority of the player base are jerks. No one wants to play with jerks. You end up ignoring them or turning chat off and then can't coordinate.

PvE isn't dead for many people. I play with my guild or I pug when I want to and I have no trouble doing either. I also have my awesome alliance to group with.

PvE isn't dead, its the community in general thats the problem. But I do love how everyone's answer to fixing a problem is "Force players to play together".

So go ahead a nerf the hell out of the skills, we will just find new builds that do the same thing and when those get nerfed we will repeat the process until something better comes along and then GW will actually be dead with a few thousand fans left to play the same crap over and over with boring balanced team skills unable to do anything without hours of waiting and planning.

Oh yeah, sounds fun!
/sarcasm.

Remove God Mode and make PvE challenging and not a joke

So one build destroyed the game huh? No it didn't. So fixing that one build won't fix the game either.

PvE is challenging depending on which profession you play. So buffing PvE difficulty will only make it harder for some and impossible for others. Which means more rage quitters which means less people to play with which kills the game faster.

Rewards for grouping with players , and disadvantages for having mostly hench/hero teams.

I'll agree that it's the community that's the problem.
The community likes playing with a huge number of overpowered skills that doesn't require any sort of thinking at all. These skills aren't supposed to be in the game at all. (and, what the hell? PvP versions not designed for killing PvE mobs? Is this a joke? Do you need skills specifically designed to kill PvE mobs? You lose all credibility instantly.)

The problem is, it gets old pretty fast. Everyone is now rushing back saying their god-mode and instant-kill skills are not fun anymore.

The only thing left in PvE is farming. There is no challenge involved with missions or quests at all, let alone balance. PvE would have lasted a little bit longer with balance, as people wouldn't complete everything so fast. Unfortunately, everyone continued to whine because their subpar and terrible builds weren't good (ironic, isn't it) so ArenaNet, being ArenaNet, did the worst changes possible.

Realistically, GW is an rpg with an ending.
There is no way to "revive" a story progressive adventure rpg without grinding, farming, or new areas.
In this case, unless we get new areas or quests, there is no way to "revive" it.

What we're asking for is to "revive" final fantasy 7, for example. Which, of course, is impossible. Once the playerbase had beaten the game, all that's left is farmers. A dead game is inevitable to ANY game. But the guild wars community is a bit too ignorant to realize that.
When you look at games like WoW and such, they're in the same problem.

There's nothing that can be done. You have some of the players overjoyed with the imbalanced skills others who want them dead. Some praising consumables, others not. Some say the game is dead others say zaishen missions have revied pugging. Everyone has their own view on what should be taken out or left in that it would be impossible to really please them all.

So all of those missions and dungeons are what then? Titles from the three campaigns don't mean anything? The armor skins, weapon skins, skills, none of that matters solely because the PvE only skills were removed? I guess owning the original game is pointless since none of the titles from that game do anything to make my character better.

rofl

Making pve interesting by removing content ?

You sure are an interesting one... Don't you think you already did enough for the game by getting ursan nerfed ? (Yes, this is meant to be sarcastic, as I can't see anything good that went out of the ursan nerf : dead areas and SC builds.)


I don't think it's possible to do much more than what's already been done to make PvE interesting again, only new content can do it, and that's not likely to happen with GW2 being under development.

To renew someone's interest, you have to add something new, zquest and Nicholas are great additions, good examples of what has to be done.

Maybe they could add new stuffs, buff some skills, add some quests, try to make elite areas more lively this way. Anything more would be unrealistic, but would be welcome for sure.

Maybe they should announce what HoM will unlock in GW2, if the benefits are interesting, lots of people may play again.

It just isn't rewarding. Sure I can kill every foe in every area,in every continent for some words beneath my name...but why? What guild wars needs is some MORE CONTENT and NEW IDEAS. Guild wars is a game that defies the classic style of rpg 'uber leet gear', thus it should be made mroe about the visual look of things.

What anet thus need to do is sort out clipping issues, release a ton of new skins, make dungeons un-runnable whilst making there be like 4 drops per player in nm and 8 in HM (why the F not, nothing's worth much anymore anyways, and have vanquishing chests that drop 4 pieces of loot that can range from: armour 'blueprints' for things such as angel wings or an uber leet looking helemet, these of course being un-tradable;new skin types duh;rare materials for the blueprints. With the rewards relating to the area of course,so all very rarest things can't be earnt just by doing daily vfff.

I'm under the impression that PvE skills were introduced to give the whiny WoW crowd something to play with. They can't use insane levels and stat growths to mask a lack of skill, so instead they'll use over-powered skills/brainless builds instead.

Personally, I'd prefer heroes with an all PvP bar than the various flavors of PvE ineptitude. At least heroes/henchies are stupid in a very controlled and predictable manner.

I can't agree that PvE is dead however. All it takes is 12 or so competent, active ppl on your friends list, at that point you'll always have 2 or 3 ppl that are willing to join in for whatever you're doing. As long as you trust their skills, build haggling is a moot point unless you're trying to set up for synergy.

Ok well heres the thing, If you changed all PvE skills to PvP versions, then you would also have to change how mobs work. Many PvE skills are nerfed in PvP so a bunch of skills would be pointless to play. It would also increase the time needed to play areas and no one wants to spend an hour or more in every area/mission/quest. This is one reason why people hate prophecies, because of the longer time required to run through missions.

Again, PvP skills are designed for teams of 8, not teams of 16-20. So it would change the way PvE played completely and it could very easily destroy certain professions like the paragon, even more than it already is.

Also if "everyone" was whining in the first place, doesn't that tell people something? That the majority enjoys overpowered builds? That they don't care for balance as much as sheer killing joy?

The point of a challenge is to do it a few times and then say "WHOO, I actually did it!" not " Well I did it but I doubt I wanna spend the next year doing it over and over and over again."

Playing a game is not suppose to be exhausting, its suppose to be relaxing. People constantly say PvE is too easy and needs to be balanced. It needs to be harder. You're going to end up making it almost impossible to enjoy. Whats the point in playing a game thats more work than reward? Bragging rights? Ego boosts?

The rewards suck in GW. You must grind to get the nice loot and you must grind in the hardest areas to get the best loot. Yet making those areas, much less all areas harder is not the answer unless the game is corrected all together. Rewards have to be worth the effort and ALL professions have to be equal in power.

Now the game will always be a solo game because of PvE only skills and Heroes. Nothing can change that no matter what because we bought Nightfall and Eotn for those things. Removing those things would require a refund for anyone who purchased those two installments. Not gonna happen.

So if "Everyone" is crying about the godmode nerfs then why is anet nerfing the game if the majority enjoys godmode? Because the minority bitches so much?

The old guildwars is dead and nothing will bring it back. Everyone complained about prophecies and factions, but both of those installments encouraged (for the most part) team play. Due to the common attitude of the community, Heroes were a must. Due to the amount of difficulty many had with the game, PvE only skills were a must.

Player's have no one to blame but themselves. Its time the community accepted the game as it is, instead of harrassing Anet to change it to the vision of the few, when the many are happy with what they have.

If the game was new (new missions, new quests) then balance would be important. But after you beat the game 2-3 times, you might enjoy a cheat code or two. You beat GTA4 and now want the weapon/ammo code for fun. Same idea.

More work with less reward is not a benefit when other games provide more rewards for less work. Anet knows this, or it should.

Personally I run a war/mo with power attack, counter attack, furious attack, executioners strike (replaced now with brawling headbutt), endure pain or dolies sig, wars endurance, mending touch (remove 2 conditions) and res sig. So I do enjoy the current challenge with the game. Nothings overly easy for me. But it would be nice to have the option of very easy mode/super money maker build, if I wanted it.


Maybe instead of skills they instead removed professions. How would you feel if they removed the dervish or paragon or monk or warrior? Would it make the other professions pointless? Would it make playing the game pointless? What if they removed the GWAMM title track? Would it make all other titles pointless? How about if they removed elite skills completely from the game or removed elite areas from the game?

Do you see what I'm getting at? Removing content others like and possibly purchased the game for is wrong. You can't include something for a long period of time and then remove it. It pisses off a lot of players and amuses a few and the compensation is never worth it.

Also, about Eotn. What does it provide beyond the skills? A very short campaign. Reskinned armors. No new professions and very few new items. Yes, removing the new skills would make owning eotn pointless. Once you beat the campaign its over. But atleast you can use the skills in all the installments. For me, the reskinned armor has always been a let-down.

Oh, but we have the HoM. pfft. Eotn is PvE only skills and brings very little to the game beyond that.

You say PvE is broken.
I say it's just fine.
I dont play PvP, and have no desire to.
I dont pug either.
I am a casual player.
I like the PVE enviroment the way it is.
You say skills are imbalanced.
I think the skills are fine.
If a hero team seems overbalanced to you, because you can devote hours upon hours of your time to analyzing how it effects PvP, or how it makes the economy suffer or any myriad of other arguments ... great for you.
I could care less.
Its a game. Its fun to kill time with.
Broken? how can fun be broken? because its not challenging enough for you?
Its plenty challenging enough for me ... Because i cannot devote years of my life fine tuning how quickly i interrupt a skill on an opponent.
Because i have no interest in dissecting skills to the point that i know them better than the developer.
I have no interest in the gw economy and how its effected by perma blah.
I have a mortgage to pay ... i worry about THAT economy.

To summarize ... the game is fun as it is for me.
It aint broke, so why fix it?

qft
to the op
Its only broken in your opinion and that of some others, many of us think its still a fun game.

Any attempt by players to "fix" the game are doomed to failure

Firstly because all the players have differing ideas as to what needs fixing and how to go about it.
Secondly many of these players are following their own agenda ie they want it fixed in some way so they can take advantage of it for some undisclosed gain.

PvE isn't dead it's old. Adding, subtracting, or dividing something old just makes it old and different. The only way to make it all new is do away with the old and make all new content (which will never happen) or create a time machine and jump back a few years (gogogo).

reality is harsh, I know

Sorry to tell you but if you have fun playing pacman that doesnt mean Pacman is supercool and everyone should play it instead of WOW or somethin , see my point ?.

Glad you still have fun with it but it doesnt change the fact that your opinion doesnt reflect reality. Reality is that this game has 4 years and isnt going to have more content so yes .... is dying. Not dead now , but its on the process ... otherwise they wont be working on GW2

This is just pure awesome. I agree with this beyond measure! This post is so good its damn near a work of art.


-And removing godmode won't change any of that.

The problem with PvE is that stuff is so overpowered there's no satisfaction in completing most things anymore because it all becomes too easy. You can easily hit the end chest in FoW on HM every 30 minutes all day. This is an elite area that's supposed to be hard!

Not to mention just about everything can be run taking away the effort to even try in the first place.

Seriously when was the last time you did a CoF run on HM without 600/Smite? I'm sure some smart ass will put his hand up but you can see my point.

Perma? Nerf. Probably the most broken thing in PvE at the moment. Runs anywhere, tanks and solos everywhere. The only thing most people use Assassins for is Shadow Form, before that they were a rare class, but people who played them at least knew how to play them. I've seen some permas nowadays who dont even have half a clue how to play a melee role properly.

600/Smite? Nerf. It's rare to find anyone who will try to do a dungeon without a 600/Smite team these days, the fact they can run pretty much any dungeon in the game is a joke. I thought Z-Quests would solve this, and in fairness they have but not much.

It's not just builds and skills though. The lack of anything new to do is slowly killing the game into a farmfest with overpowered builds. Z-Quests dont add anything new to the game, they just get you doing old stuff over and over for a few extra equipment slots (or whatever else you might use the coins on). Again it's just a farmfest, as players strive to do as many Z-Quests with as many characters as they can before moving onto the next one.

The Guild Wars playerbase has been turned into mindless drones who just repeat the same shit over and over again because they have stupidly overpowered builds that allow them to do so. No wonder the game is dying.

But see how others play the game does not affect YOU at all nor does how fast they beat an area and you can choose not to use powerful builds if you want more challenge.

Arenanet is using existing content that most players have played a million times over to come up with new ideas because we aren't getting another campaign or mini expansion. Not a totally bad idea but without anything really new it is boring. I like Guild Wars as much as the next fan here but the wait for Guild Wars 2 seems a heck of a lot longer when there is nothing majorly to be excited about Guild Wars right now.

Get rid of the OP'd stuff, seriously. Gate of Pain yesterday consisted of a ton of perma sins running the mission for 5-7k each.

Get rid of all these bs grind titles. If you want to keep PvE skills (which aren't that bad of an idea if the op'd ones are toned down a bit), tie them to attribute lines, which will also help decrease their power to something more reasonable.

Hmmm... make hard mode actually hard by better mob AI/skillbars/less straightforward buffs. This is never going to happen but meh.

I personally wish I could find a low req Bone Dragon Staff, because I'd love to be able to sell it, and have enough money to buy myself a high req one for my Ele, and an Eternal Blade, and Obsidian Blade for my Warrior.

If people are farming the Dungeon where they drop in ridiculous times, the value of the BDS drops as well. If eventually, I come across one with my regular balanced team, the value could have dropped so much that I won't be able to get the items I was originally after.

People being able to clear UW in 33 minutes with TWO perma sins, is absolutely ridiculous. Not only does it lower the value of drops there, but means that instead of a team of 8 beating it in 33 minutes, it is FOUR teams beating it in 33, which of course means more people will farm there, as it doesn't require team organisation - just you and a friend.

I don't know why people argue over this. PvE is "dead" because the core players have already played through it to boredom and new blood is dropping off steeply as the game ages. You can't keep people around if you don't give them something new and interesting to do, and Guild Wars just doesn't do that. It's great fun while it lasts, but it doesn't have more than maybe a year or two of staying power with most people because it just doesn't have all that much content.

You want to revive PvE? Give people something to do so they have a reason to come back in to the game

Ah! So the truth comes out. People want nerf's for personal platinum profit! I knew it! So because someone figured out a way to make more money faster than the average gamer, other gamers are complaining because they can't make as much without using a build/profession they don't enjoy as much. Now I understand.

So the whole point of decreasing or ruining someones fun is over a few platinum. Well that says it all.

if mobs had 8 skills that actually were coordinated with each other. i would take that way over some crap 33% IAS/IMS boost and level 20 attributes.

all HM added was the need to kill quickly because theres no way a monk can prot spirit 8 people.

If it was just hero and hench I would agree with you.

Some of us like to play with real people too though.

When the majority of the playerbase is only into perma SC and 600/Smite it gets real boring fast.

Two ways to shake up people:

(1) Add content. Nothing beats new content, but it's also the one thing draining resources the most.

(2) Change the rules. People are mindless drones only because enemies refuse to be unpredictable. More random elements to their skillbar upon spwaning and people will not be able to exploit them as much. But in a time where some skillbars for a bunch of GvG Henchmen calls for establishing a test kru, even that option might not be feasible.

Lots of funny posts in this thread. Many people are claiming that to make a game challenging, you don't use a certain build. Going by that same logic, inorder for me to make the game more challenging, I should avoid making my character stronger and purposely place useless skills on my bar so that the game is more difficult for me.... That isn't how it works. I liked Guild Wars because it was a strategy game back when it was just prophecies, but it just isn't as fun if your strategizing to perform poorly. 'This' is why overpowered skills kill this game. You want the game to be hard, but you want there to be some limit to your power, but placing several forms of god mode in the game just turns it into well, a joke.

But you still can. I don't understand this point in the discussion. I never have trouble finding a pug, or getting a group in my guild or alliance. Plus I have people on my friends list. So what is it that I am doing differently from others?

I doubt my guild or alliance members or friends list buddies are the "coolest" people in the game, which they are. -And I'm far from the best or friendliest player in the game. So I don't see how this can be a problem.

I play almost daily and I tend to play different areas. The older areas are dying in prophecies, but in factions, nightfall and eotn, people are still there in many areas. The empty areas are perfect for guildies/alliance members and friends.

However, it is broken to others. If you don't care about balance then it shouldn't affect you when Anet changes skills, fixes AI, and tries to improve the game. Your viewpoint does not equal the viewpoint of others, and it's ignorant to suggest otherwise. Saying a game is balanced because you don't care, or because you're a 'casual' player, is one of the dumbest things I've heard.

Will admitting that the game is broken affect your game play in anyway whatsoever as a casual gamer? No, it won't. Will Anet attempting to fix the game affect your game play in anyway whatsoever as a casual gamer? No, it won't.

Unless he uses a build that gets nerfed.


You ever heard of the level 1 FF12 challenge? Or the "No item" challenge? Players that want to challenge themselves do so willingly without requiring the game be changed. Yes they can use the powerful skills but choose not too because they are looking for a challenge.

Thats like someone who wants to lose weight claiming they won't stop eating if there is food around, simply because its there. Someone has to take it away from them for them to stop. I don't understand this mentality at all.

Why should it be up to other people to make it challenging for you when you have the ability to do so on your own? Why should everyone else suffer because of your personal tastes? You don't have to use useless skills, but you don't have to use overpowered skills either.

[edit] this is a good thread with a great discussion, but I need to quit posting before a mod says I'm just +1ing my post count, which I'm not. The point I'm trying to make is this.

Builds get nerfed all the time and it never fixes PvE. It never gets people to play together because people don't want or like playing together unless they know each other and are friendly to one another. Changing skills does not add new content or revitalize the game. It does not help the economy because a new money making build will always be in the game no matter what.

Removing content would be the worst thing anet could do so it won't ever happen. People are too dependant on anet to do everything for the player when the player can choose what they use in their skill bar or who they play with.

Want to bring pugging back to life? honestly? here's the solution. Stop being assholes to each other.

Want the economy to go back to the way it was? Anet should set item buy prices at the merchant for all item skins, mods and inscriptions. then items will ALWAYS be worth the same price. Want a skin to be worth 100k forever? Make the merchant buy them for 100plat +1 gold.

Want player's to chose other players over heroes and henchies? Make heroes and henchies claim 95% of the drops on a regular basis and 100% of the drops on a uncommon basis.

Rework missions and quests to reward players based on the number of real players in the group.

Add in new content for free.

But stop with the bitching, insulting, egotistical "I'm better than you and most people suck" attitude and maybe, just maybe, you all will have the vision of gw you want. But changing skills people like is not a way to get there.

Everyone have a good day.

I think PvE is fine the way it is. People assume that everyone plays with ALL 4games when there are thousands of people who just play with just 1 or 2 games. They also assume everyone can run the same builds. Its up to the player to make it they way they want to. If you want to make it easy/hard it up to me and me only. Example run only nightfall skills,NO PvE skills and so on. ANET has created a game that has lasted for over 4 years and will continue to thrive even after GW2 arrives. 4 years is alot longer then most MMO's out there. They have given us hundreds of options to play the game as we wish.

And not long ago, the community was only into tank-n-spank with an obsidian flesh warrior and SF eles. The community flocks towards whatever's popular and makes the game easy.

I agree with whoever it was that said that the community itself is the problem. The game's plagued with self-important jerks anymore. It was their arrogance towards the other players that gave ANet the idea for heroes and killed pugging, but strangely enough, heroes are what keeps me playing PvE. If I had to deal with the community when I played, I'd have uninstalled by now.

Ah, I was making that post in reference to a 'multiplayer' game called Guild Wars. I'm pretty sure if I ran in naked or with no weapon in almost any pug, they'd restart and kick me from their group. So yes, balance is needed for multiplayer.