Why does everybody choose to H/H?

I rarely H/H & I rarely PUG. I almost exclusively party with guildies, then allies, then hit the friends list after that.

Failing all those options most of the time I just idle at the GH as I find that more enjoyable that finding a PUG or doing anything H/H.

On the odd occasions I just want to do something to progress and don't want to idle I'd choose to PUG first, even with people with lame builds. GW is easy as all experienced players know, so helping these people who could never make it themselves just makes it a little more challenging. Of course it's not ideal, and it IS easier to H/H than PUG, but it's just more entertaining than playing with some AI.

If that fails, then I redo whatever I was doing with H/H. H/H are reasonably reliable to get things done first time if you know how to use them. But on the flip side, playing a game where you never lose is no fun. Could you imagine playing poker and winning with any 2 cards every time? where's the challenge?

People just don't like to take the chance of failure that you invite along with each person you take. I PuG when I can on missions because the chance of meeting someone worth their team spot, however small it may be, is often worth a few party wipes. :]

Wow the amount of stereotypes in this thread makes me sick.
I pug almost mission/quest, and I have 0 problems with completion time and bad players. The bad players I run into weed themselves out of the game naturally.
Maybe because you do not believe in the power of the pug (lol), it will not bestow upon you the luck to get competent players consistently.

Most of the best answers are already given in the first 10 posts or so.
I'd also like to point out that people don't always use H/H. Sure, there are less and less PUGs today, but people have spread across 4 chapters and left the game as well.

I did a droknar run yesterday for an alliance friends, and decided to take along 2 other people looking for a run for free. They ended up joining my guild, because they though it was very friendly to get ran for free, and they were very friendly to us as well. Not really a pug as it was a run, but still, you can meet nice people in pugs.

I like H/H because they are faster and are there when I want to do whatever.

Unlike some of the others, I won't speak as to why many people choose to H/H, just me. In my case, it's because there are just not many people doing what I'm doing. I gave up on titles for awhile, so now that I'm wrapping up Guardian, the people who are interested in it have already done it, or aren't ready to do it. That's partly why I only have the obnoxious missions (ok... two obnoxious, one meat grinder that scares me, in each of Cantha and Elona) left.

But then, I'm not big on people doing me favors. If I happen to get a guildie that has the time and needs Dzagonur Bastion HM, righteous. (That mission has to be the NF Equivalent of Eternal Grove...). If not, I'll H/H it rather than make someone who hates it help me out by the sole virtue of my being in their guild. If I happened across a GLFM Masters HM, sure, I'd join with them -- unless I get in the party and they're running Discord. Too many people just don't know how and where to use that team, but do it anyway because they heard it's good and they smoke NM with it. Give me randomway any day, tell me what you need me to run (I'm a ranger, I have lots of options!), right on. But I don't run it (don't have the energy to run the caller build effectively) and have had success in parties with it exactly twice (with the same player).

I'm not a build snob - if a warrior wants to spec 9/9/9/9 because he wants to have counters to all three bosses in the mission, hey, good on him. I'll give him a shot, that's outta-the-box thinking. But that FotM build team really does, in my experience, express a higher-than-acceptable possibility of failure.

ZMissions can help. In the first two weeks of Zmissions, I was able to get Guardian of Tyria in the last two missions I needed (THK and Glade, the bonuses of which are MUCH easier with at least one other human). I pugged Gate of Madness(I don't know if you even CAN H/H that one in HM. The AI seems too dumb to deal with the nuances of the end of the mission) hard mode a few weeks ago to get my monk to DoA to farm tormented gemstones with my guild leader, I ran prot for humans for the first time, and we did great. Went back with my ranger, no one would touch me with a 10 foot pole. Finally got it last week with a pair of guildies.

So yeah. While it's popular to say nobody pugs because pugs suck (and yeah, a lot do), in my case it's because other people just aren't doing what I'm doing (and who can blame them. Yeesh, HM can get crazy).

ANOTHER THREAD ABOUT THIS...-_-

Will this ever stop or be stuck in one thread -_-

Because H/H are more confrotable to be with

No whining about you going to the bathroom
No whining about you being hungry
No whining about not being able to run heals sig frenzy
no whining about loosing couple of times before getting it right
No Quiting
no Mental Break downs
No " A im better then you attitude"
Frankly Better then some human players
no "PLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ LET ME GET YOUR GOLDS"
No.. My build is better then urz look at me i gots r5 KoABd Rank 1 Zaishen R1 Luxon -_-

You need more reasons as to why?

I play wiht my GUILDIES.. you know the game is Called 'da GUILD WARS" why do i need to pug if i have 2 choices that are way better then randomn Puging... Alwas have at least 3 guildies on that are free alwasy have around 20 heroes to choose from and 20 henchment to choose from...

as some 1 esle stated... I DONT live in the game, i dont have set game time if i feel like it i play and heroes give me flexibility to do what i want when i want without others hindering my game time.

pretty much same deal here, i know there are alot of intelligent pugs out there, i just happen to have a difficult time finding them. i sympathize with wanting to find groups and make new friends and such, but thats what a good guild is for

Well... when I go H/H I control all the builds and have relative control over all party members.

When I go pug, I may find people with really... 'creative' builds that they think that are good builds just because those builds 'work' for them when they H/H. Then the truth is that they waste energy and time doing nothing while the H/H kills everything and keep them alive. They think those builds actually work at all and bring them to PUGs.
Cases vary, but there are some worse than others. You may find the typical guy that thinks that just bringing ursan is enough to make a build, the 'healing' monk that puts no points in divine favor and brings Meteor Shower, or the guy that after a skill update, never test builds or try to make new ones. Ah, and there's the guy that brings Assassins Promise to recharge skills under with 2..10 seconds recharge, 15..25 cost and no energy management of any way... and... well... sometimes even if they have a decent build, you click on their names and see that they only hal themselves, or apply protective spirit over minions when a caster is being spiked, and death nova over players that are outside of range of the main bulk of enemies and things like those... sigh...

The last one was a ritualist that brought a quite lacking 'spirit spam' communing and channeling build. He just brought all skills that create spirits with Ranged Attacks and Summon Spirits. What he did? Create them all, summon them, and let them die, and then become useless until all spirits recharged. I gave him a better version with Spawning Power and Channeling that I knew it way better than his (spirits get way more health and 25 more armor, and can deal more damage and even blind lots of enemies, rendering melee enemies useless, and keep at least 4 out of 6 spirits alive at all times) but he refused to even take a look at it. If he used my build, he could be able to deal more than 600 damage to all nearby enemies in less than 15 seconds. With his... phew... his spirits barely did the job as bodyblockers
Myspirits can take a whole HM Fire Breath and are absolutely immune to any melee attacker with no PBAoE skills. His spirits made 'poof' after one and a half hits of a RoJ and died in one hit with melee attacks.
Sometimes people should open their eyes and listen to others a little bit, checking builds that people ping may give you good ideas...
...yeah, I know, it may also give you goosebumps and nightmares, but you get used to it after a while.

I make sure my builds work. The builds I use when I vanquish are good enough to be the only source of damage needed to kill all enemies. I could just bring healing and support H/H and I would still be able to clear entire areas withing reasonable time! So when I also bring damaging H/Hs, the job is done even faster.

People should try to be more aware of what their builds actually do.

For me, the main reason to PUG is strategy.
If I'm going to need my party to stay between a wall and the enemy at all times, I'll need a human party, because you can't do that with H/H (no matter how much do you flag them, they will move), same when an area is going to have lots of AoE, and you need the party to move while spreading.

I remember the days when THK had loads of people as well. However if you were not an Ele, Monk, or Warrior it was very difficult to get into groups. I was a Mesmer and I remember very well the Mesmer hate that permeated PVE.

Another issue is the expectations of the person playing. One observation that I have made is that many people play Guild Wars for a social element which is fine but not everyone is a social person. I for one am not interested in listening to someone who thirty seconds after logging in starts to complain about their spouse, kids, school, or job etc. I play GW for my enjoyment and entertainment. Yes the various chats can be unchecked however I have been in several guilds and invariably this seems to follow. Now I enjoy playing on my own knowing that if I play with H/H I won't hear some excuse five minutes into the mission like, 'I have to go to football practice' or the ever present, 'I have to go afk just go on without me'. My advice to someone who is looking to meet their social expectations in a game is to go and play wow or something else where you are forced to play in groups. Anet stated that GW2 (if it ever does come out) 'The professions are being designed to be viable for both solo and group play'. I was very happy to hear that because it sounds like Anet is taking into account people who like to play solo.

Not all pug groups are created equally either. I have been in a few good pug groups and many horrible ones. Now with H/H I don't have to wonder if the group is going to wipe five minutes into the mission.

I started H&H'ing as I didnt want to waste time preparing a group for a mission, and i was in a PvP guild, so no help from there. Even if the H&H was longer in the mission, it probably took longer to prepare a group for the mission.

I like to PuG from time to time, usually with someone i predict to be good by how they talk and the builds they ping, if they ping them. Its usually just me and another with 3 heroes each, this works well. I meet a few people this way, and their always up for more missions or farms on a later date.

Heroes are also better suited for some roles than a human (see applying death nova to minions).

H/H > PUG

IMO H/H is way more reliable b/c heroes dont have to go to the bathroom or quit when something goes wrong (although id laugh one day if a hero actually said "You're a n00b im leaving!") And like many people before me said, with heroes you control everything.

That would be an awesome April Fool for next year.

It really depends on what I'm doing, how I feel, and how much time I have, as to whether or not I take people or heroes.

Generally speaking, I have a better success rate with h/h. I also get through things faster as I don't have to wait to find a random player or wait for guidlies/allies to get wherever, or even wait for everyone to be ready. The heroes are ready when I load them.

Although I know there are plenty of nice people out there, that I would most likely enjoy playing with, I have had many bad experiences with pugs. Immature people drawing penises on the map, not following simple directions, leaving in the middle, and even failing simple missions. As much as I do enjoy playing with people, considering I have limited time, I prefer to accomplish my task the first time around; not after 3 or 4 attempts. In addition to this, again because of limited time, I don't enjoy standing around near empty towns/outposts looking for people to group with.

As such, I opt to play mainly with my fiance and our heroes because they:

Are more reliable
Are less hassle
And save me time

Why do people keep asking the same questions?

Same arguments as in the "Did Heroes Kill Guild Wars" thread:

"Even when the game was most focused on one area, with no heroes, and henchman AI was shoddy at best, there were places where it was hard (or impossible!) to find a group.

ArenaNet had to implement Heros in Nightfall, or people would just quit playing. There was just not enough Humans available in every mission of the game at all times...


I'll reiterate what most people are saying: Heroes didn't kill GW, they saved it. I'm sure I wouldn't be playing GW if not for Heroes."

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/n...eply&p=4732655

I'll also add, plenty of people find PUGS when they are available. Go to the daily Zmission for proof.

There are several good reasons:
1. I don't want to constantly explain people why their build is extremely bad and tell them what builds to use. I'll take H/H for that.
2. Most people are douches. AFK-ers, people who try to insult me or my family members all the time and think they are awesome for that, ragequitters and retards in general. For every nice person I meet in PUGs there are at least 2 douches.
3. People like to die a lot and don't learn from that. Standing in 3 AOEs is not good move away from that.
4. I can't always get a group for some missions.
That's why H/H, guild/alliance and friends list beats PUGs.

I'll agree. PuGing is still quite viable in many places; however a lot of people simple opt not to most of the time for various reasons.

I never responded to the other thread because I didn't want to lose my temper with id10ts. However, my take on that topic is that people "killed" Guild Wars, not the heroes. More specifically, people killed PuGs; GW is still plenty alive even if not quite so populated. Heroes simply gave us more/better options for avoiding the assholes/idiots in game.

I h/h most of the time simply because I like to play at my own pace. Beer runs, bathroom breaks, whatever.

As for the tired, old PUG & Cookie-cutter builds argument, remember this:
1) Skills in GW are supposed to synergize within a party, no one wants your awesome 1v1 "original" build.
2) PuGs would like to start the mission TODAY. If no one knows what anyone else's role is, failure will follow.

Reasons I usually HH:

1. Way, way faster except for rare exceptions like Grand Court of Sebelkeh (at least for me). I have 6 mains and like to try to do all the z quests and so forth with them, and there's no way I'd have time to do all that in PUGs.

2. When I'm so inclined, I can take my time with things without worrying about slowing down someone else's pace (going over to kill some "unnecessary" boss on a whim, double-checking some skill descriptions, chatting, petting my cats IRL, etc.).

3. I enjoy honing varieties of hero-team builds to "perfection" through lots of experimentation. Too much variability with other humans in the mix.


Reasons I occasionally PUG:

1. When I'm feeling energetic and patient, it's fun to strategize with other humans and face the challenge of making up for liabilities in the party (liabilities in some combination of skill, experience, and attitude). I often find myself playing the peacemaker/pep-talker role, and it's fun to help a team come together. Especially fun when you can tell that someone who's typically uptight relaxes and has a grand-ol' time.

2. It's fun to try to adapt to the variety of personalities I encounter.

3. There's nothing like the feeling of progressing from incompetent-noobs status at the beginning of a mission to a well-oiled machine overcoming the odds at the end of a mission, especially when I vouch for the underdog and he comes through for me (you know, the guy at the beginning who makes a stupid mistake, and the rest of the party wants to ragequit, but you talk them out of it). Unfortunately this is rare, since a gogogogo player or genitalia artist often spoils the comeradery, but when I'm in a lottery-playing mood it's a blast. When I do all this infrequently enough, I don't get jaded, and I even manage to interpret it all as classic entertainment.

I want to PUG again, but all of the good players are running Hero/Hench, and I don't have the patience to babysit 7 other players, so I fall in line and just Hero/Hench it myself.

People like H/H for certain things because heroes are easily customizable and you can setup a strong synergy build quickly. With human players, this is very hard to do as people are constantly wanting to run their favorite builds. I've also noticed that many PUGs have an immature attitude and don't want to be a team player.

On the flip side, heroes and henchmen have very limited A.I. While they are almost geniuses at interrupts and focus fire, they are pretty darn stupid at kiting or keeping themselves out of trouble. If you need to run through an area, then they will linger behind and sometimes draw aggro. Human players can also bring all kinds of PvE-only skills, which is a big negative for H/H because some PvE skills are insanely powerful.

Personally I always find it hilarious that topics like these always talk about how great H/H are, and then there's always another thread, often on the same page, talking about how heroes basically ruined the game. It's like complaining about how PvE skills ruined the game and then every day you speed clear Underworld in 15 minutes.

That is the cost of pugging. Besides, you have a chance to "make new friends".

I find it funny whenever people use "socializing" as a reason to convince others to PUG. When there are so many other less stressful opportunities to make new friends than through pugging. Have you tried chatting with someone in town for example?

Silly Rabbit! PUGs are for completing missions/quests.

reason for me to h/h is because like 95% of the community does not know how to play their skillbar.

Guilds are for that silly rabbit.

You socialize there...even though just joining a guild could be considered solcilizing and so....Meh there loads of people on my friends list doesnt mean i talk to them all..now Guildies is a different sotry.

Precisely, belonging to a good guild has lots of advantages in this game. They can help you clear areas and socialize with you at the same time. So much better than random pugs.

im..not..arguing..you know that right =)

I liked the social aspect of it, to see how others played and what they ran. Besides, there's a certain learning aspect from pugging with a good player that you really can't get from hero-henching. But it seems that with heroes, the competent players just load up their party with either 3 or 6 of them and leave, and the only people that still PUG are for the most part incompetent.

I don't mind AFKers, stuff happens in real life. I don't mind when people want to run their own bar, as long as there's a certain sense of balance and synergy in who we do take. But at the end of the day, I want to complete the mission.

I h/h becuz i like having 3 super human skill bots and 4 not so great but decent hack and heal bots.

i tend to h/h alot, but do enjoy HM dungeons/missions/VQ's with a real person so get at me, if your feeling social, make some friends.

I H/H because I still have fun coming up with and trying out new hero setups.

because heroes do what i tell them to do and can run builds properly

Ah...the learn by "pugging with a good player" argument is an interesting concept that very rarely happens. In fact the second part of your statement, "only people that still PUG are for the most part incompetent" already tells us how rare that is.

If I want to learn from a good player, I would invite my guild leader instead of random pugs.

Not if it takes an hour while the guy goes to sleep and hopes that you complete the rest of the mission for him. The people who rage quit upon the first death are even worse, they totally destroy the group.

I must be one of the few who still enjoy pugs.

I've only been playing for a little under a year and I H/H mostly because most players are bored 4-year olds who only like to do UWSC or DoA with gimmick builds. Which leaves me, a new player, stuck alone doing things like HM Missions and Vanquishes and leveling up characters in NM.

Fortunately, my guild is a very helpful one and I do alot of stuff with them that I would otherwise do alone because its not sexy enough for the masses.

You're not, I enjoy them too. The thing is that there is hardly anyone to PuG with. Either the town is empty or (and I get a laugh every time I see this) full of folks but everyone is H/Hing.

Why do I choose to H/H instead of pug? Simple answer is, I don't want to put up with peoples attitudes. I don't care if the group isn't very good. I don't care if we have to repeat a mission 5 times (which is very rare) and I don't care if we have to stop and wait for someone to go to the bathroom, take care of their children or deal with the phone. Gives me a chance to grab a beer and scratch myself.

People who quit without good reason get a temp ignore and I don't group with them, same for leechers. People who don't listen and run ahead of the group find themselves all alone and die. Normally they don't get a rez. None of that bugs me much because the next game, they're excluded from the group.

People don't normally tell me to change my build because my build rocks for damage dealing. If they want me to run a different build, I will ask why and if the reason is good, I will run it if I have it. If not then I tell them no and am either removed or they accept my answer and we play.

But the spoiled child attitude found so common in online gaming is where I draw the line. If you wanna act like a little bitch, don't expect me to help you complete a mission. Heroes and Henchies are mindless drones yet far more welcome than those types of players. This is why pugging is almost dead and will never and can never be fixed. Heroes didn't kill pugs, skills didn't kill pugs. Players did.

Players sure did kill PUGs, with their nasty attitude that all real people are basically inferior as it gets.

Basicly I h/h so I don't have to wait for people loading their bars, eating a cookie before we start the mission. And because I know the armour of my heroes are runed good and have the weapons and build I want them to use.

"All?" No. "Far too many?" Yes. And that attitude was earned. Many times over.

PvXwiki killed pugs.

2nd it...All gimmycy builds spread to fast with that website...maybe thats one of the reason for the class discrimination as well. and heroes help those calss pass by? Thats my view on PvX i personaly never used it i dont even know any 1 that does from my friends list.

Since you rarely see the same person twice, and guild tags are unmemorable, people in Guild Wars are effectively anonymous, leading to no repercussions for bad behavior, which tends to make people treat each other like shit, and make PUGs a shitty experience. GW2 is supposed to fix that and add more of a shard-style community feel.