Magic: Limited to the Laws of Physics, or not?

The biggest issue in lore when thinking of magic is and physics is how the two interact. Most that give their opinion think that physics are in place except where magic comes into play. This is incorrect.

I. Physics

Sorry, but I need to turn this into a physics class for a bit, if you feel you know enough, feel free to skip to part II. If not, I’ll try to keep this simple and short.

First, we only focus on one thing with Physics here: Energy. And there is one undeniable rule – even in religion – that exists: Energy cannot turn into “nothing,” and likewise, “nothing” cannot turn into energy (or “something”). Kinetic Energy (i.e., movement, actions) turns into Potential Energy (lack of movement), and vice versa. In a perfect simulation, you could have a ball swinging back and forth on a rope forever. But energy has other outputs – heat and sound are the two biggest.

Heat is constant, transferring from one object to another, one molecule to another. If cold molecules touch hot molecules, the heat transfers over. This is why a seat is warm after you sit in it for a long time.

Sound is irrelevant to this to be honest, so I’ll leave it out.

There are multiple sources of energy, each source getting energy from something else – an endless cycle. No origin, no end (this is where Monotheism fails in logic and points its finger at “God”)

If you get that, it should be enough. If you don’t get the sound, that’s fine, this is just to make things easier.

II. Energy

Now then, we go to energy, the most important thing when wanting to do just about anything. In most games, energy is split into two things: “Mana” and “Stamina” – that’s all fine and dandy, but due to game mechanics, GW forgets about stamina (some can argue that it is replaced with adrenaline – well, kind of) and simply calls mana energy. For the sake simplicity, we’ll call the blue bar “mana.”

Now, you’ll all know, I’m sure, that when you use magic or a skill of any kind they need energy or adrenaline. Now, in the case of adrenaline (and stamina), that is the energy for movement and movement alone. “Mana” on the other hand is used for both movement (stances, traps, attack skills, and some “skill”s) and magic (spells and some “skill”s).

You notice, as you use “mana” it decreases immediately, but it slowly regains constantly. This is just game mechanic, in lore, it would act the same as health does in game mechanics. Initially not moving, but after a while, slowly gains up (as one rests).

III. Basic Magic

Now, we all know magic right? It’s that thing that makes objects float, bursts things on fire, or freezes things, and does a whole bunch of other things. The actual source of this is unknown, but believed to be the Mists. But that’s for later.

Anyways, we go to the basics of magic. You’re probably wondering why I had that short little physics lesson. Well, here we go:

If you want something to levitate, you need to add more potential energy, in order to get that potential energy, the kinetic energy must come from somewhere – which would be your own energy or more specifically, one’s “mana.” For it to keep floating, energy would have to be constantly used as long as there is no support. Which is why when you see a person levitating something, it is not long lasting (usually).

In the case of say, freezing or burning something, you are changing the amount of heat. This means you are speeding up the process of the heat passing to something else. For freezing, this is easy. But for burning, you need to create the fire as well. Well, pyromancy or pyrokinesis is just a complex form of telemancy or telekinesis (some will say they are the same thing, both caused by the “mind” – but this goes far out of lore and into debating on psionics, which, to be honest, would be the “modern” form of magic). Creating fire would be done by re-arranging the very atoms and molecules within the air. Similarly, this can be done to create just about any object or substance from fire and ice, to lightning and soil (no matter the hardness or type).

Thus, the Elementalist is easily explained. Monks (and Restoration Ritualists) are just as easy to explain. Through the manipulation of objects, one can create flesh by, once more, moving and changing atoms and molecules.

IV. Intermediate Magic

Then we get to the harder to explain magic: Curses, Illusions, and Summons (a.k.a. teleportation).

Let us focus on illusions. By theory, they are the tempering of the mind. However, in practice, they can also be seen as the tempering of the very nerves of the human body. When you touch, smell, taste, hear, or see something (basically, when your senses register something), they go through nerves. If the nerves were affected, your senses would be changed. If magic can change the very molecules and atoms, what stops them from changing and affecting the chemicals that are released by nerves to trick the mind? Nothing, as long as the affecter has the energy.

As for “domination magic” and curses (and some other necrotic spells), these two, which inflict direct pain onto the user – sometimes in the form of conditions - is he exact opposite of healing by a Monk. Where one side creates flesh, the other removes flesh, changing its substance into something else – possibly something painful, or something which has no harm to others.

Then we possibly get the most annoying of the magic: Holy, Chaos, and Dark. Well, maybe not that annoying. Just like the elements, these types of magical damage are just a different “substance” – though one which does not exist in reality (as far as humans know). One may simply be able to categorize them as fifth, sixth, and seventh elements, or as atomic substances used in extremely large scale. The annoyance of them is due to them being completely fictitious to reality, and thus cannot be explained in any other way aside from another “new” substance or direct acts of some “dues ex machina” affect.

Then, the last magic (if I missed any, let me know and I’ll update the thread – don’t think I did though) would be “summoning” or “teleportation” such as a Ritualist summoning spirits, or traveling through a portal. The answer is just simply stolen from “scientific theory” – the “demolecorization” and “remolecorization” of people or substances. That is, for teleportation through different planes of existence.

One could argue that self-teleportation would just be moving at an extremely fast speed (this would actually be correct in all teleportation, but teleportation which requires going through and not around other things would mean the above).

Now, I know I’ll get yelled at this with “that’s science fiction!” or something if I don’t say now: If you truly think about it, science and magic achieve the same thing, the same actions, but through difference sources of energy. When you get down to the very basics, wouldn’t a flame thrower be changing gasoline and oxygen into fire – and say “immolation” would be changing air into fire? Same actions and outcomes but there are different methods and/or sources of energy for the actions and outcomes.

V. Magical Objects

Prime example of a magical object would be signets – which are symbols, usually engraved into rings. But all of these are easily explained. The objects, much like a body, are just a catalyst of holding in magic, and thus energy. There are two things which differentiate objects from living creatures for use of holding energy:

1. They do not exert energy until tapped by another source, so the amount of magic never diminishes, and would be seen as the most ample source of storing magic. Though, living beings can, while using energy, also gain energy to replace the used energy – and possibly even increase the amount of energy within them.
2. Depending on the substance, they could hold more or less than a living creature of the same size. Throughout references in magic, one kind of substance stands out in “magical conductivity” than all others: reflective substances. This can be water, ice, crystals, glass, anything with a true reflection (this means, if you polish something, it won’t be any more conductive for magic). This appears to be the case in Guild Wars as well (to some degree), as shown in Gmr Leon’s research and through various dialogues, such as from Vekk in the “At the Bloodstone” cinematic during the “Finding the Bloodstone” mission – where he says a crystal is safer than a jar to extract and store magic.

Do note that the bloodstones would be considered objects which contain a vast amount of magic – which also disperse the magic into the surrounding area. The bloodstones, having to limit the amount of magic used in the whole world of Tyria, would most likely be enchanted to continuously draw in magic, but in effect, it would also have to disperse it. Originally, the magic was dispersed into lava and the Ring of Fire Island Chain, but eventually went into the areas which the bloodstones landed. Why lava? Why the water in the Maguuma? It is because they conduct magic more than other substances in the area. The believed-to-be Aggression bloodstone in Bloodstone caves’ magic goes into the air (so it seems) and then into creatures. This is another instance of magic not just “disappearing.” The Maguuma Bloodstone sends magic into the soul batteries and into the water, which is constantly traveling, feeding creatures and plants alike. Eventually the water (should) reach the sea and disperse to such a wide amount of area it has little affect, thus effectively dispersing energy without “using” it or making it “disappear.” The Ring of Fire bloodstone’s magic goes into keeping the Door of Komalie sealed, which repels things from going through on either side (also the “jade” floats there, also a constant use of potential energy) thus using up the energy and it not just disappearing (floating objects and forcing creatures back ->energy to movement).

Thus, the only known object to constantly absorb magic, also constantly dispersed magic.

VI. Otherworldy Things

Other things which are hard to explain with the use would be things like alternate dimensions (prime example: the Rift and Mists) and incorporeal creatures (prime example: Spirits).

Some would say, due to the closeness of the Rift to the Mists (which is disputed to be the source of magic) that it would have less to do with physics than anywhere else. Again, this is wrong. Magic can only add onto physics, not change it. However, due to the closeness (or being in the very location of) the “source” of magic and life, it would appear that physics hold little grasp on these locations. All it really means, is that more can be done through magic, nothing more.

Spirits, to keep things simple, would be made of a different kind of molecule (that is, as different sulfur is from oxygen), and a kind of “distance” between the atoms that puts the substance between liquid and solid, a “non-solid solid” if you will. In that, if focused, it can interact with solids, but can also go “through” solids (or more specifically, solids can go through it), but no matter what keeps a semi-definite shape. A “semi-definite” shape meaning that, while the shape can change a little, it would, generally, stay the same shape. Similar to a water-balloon – you can squeeze it, changing its shape, but it usually returns to how it originally was.

The Mists, the supposed source of magic, also needs to gain energy from a source. This source would be spirits. As I stated in my old Spirits theory, I believe spirits to get sent to the Rift (the afterlife as some may say) when "killed" in other realms (living realms, as one may call them), and when killed in the Rift, they particles of the soul would return to the Mists, giving the Mists energy to spend to other things, such as new life, and magic.

Do Note: I am not saying all this is fact, but my explanation (thus theory) for how magic and physics do co-exist. And yes, the last portion is more of a hypothesis. While writing this, I got another theory to add onto the use of magic, but that is off-topic from this.

I have a feeling where I started to ramble at some points, sorry bout that, wrote this when it came to my mind (didn’t want to forget) which was at five in the morning.

I think you're trying to apply logic to something that only follows the logic of whatever the programmer can do.

I also think that you did a decent job, but I'll surmise what you said in two sentences: "In order for magic to exist, the energy has to come from somewhere; I.E. yourself. Magic is little more then learning how to control energy."

I'm also pretty sure that a lot of other people have come to this conclusion as well. Gj though

Like I said at the end of the teleportation portion: if you think about it, magic is just a replacement of science in doing something. Thus it would also be the case in reality, opening the possibility for magic to eventually (or once in the past) existing. This is actually where I got this theory from, while thinking on a book I'm hoping to start.

Though unsupported, yes, what I said can be shortened to that.

There is no new idea, however, this idea was also never posted for GW lore, and the only (and sadly common for those from GWO) version of physics and magic in GW which has been posted is that the laws of physics exist in GW except for the case of magic. Which I was basically proving was incorrect.

Killamus is correct IMHO. But he did what u did in 2 sentences. Very good job though. I like reading your theories.

If people think this was overthinking, just wait until the physicist gets time to really get stuck in...

In the meantime, though:

I've generally thought of the blue energy bar as representing stamina as well as mana. Stamina is something that gets drained as actions are performed, while adrenaline is the excitement that builds up in combat and allows impressive feats to be performed DESPITE being tired. This explains, firstly, why energy is still used for skills that don't appear to be magical in nature, and secondly gives a simple reason for why heavier armours reduce the size and rate of regeneration of the energy pool (heavy armour is tiring to wear and harder to relax in, and this someone wearing heavier armour will tire out faster and take longer to recover, all else being equal). Thought of this way, the energy pool may not represent magical energy directly, but instead represent how much the concentration and physical activity of spellcasting tires the spellcaster, as well as the possibly tiring effect of channeling magic energy through their body while casting the spell.

This then raises the question of how certain skills like, say, Energy Tap work if energy is simply stamina. One possible explanation is that, by and large, magical energy and physical stamina are equivalent - a living person's body creates a certain amount of energy that can be used either for physical activity (non-magical skills like for most Warriors) or channeled instead towards magic. Alternatively, it could simply be related to lifesteal effects, draining from the target's stamina reserves instead of whatever it is that lifesteals actually drain.

Just to note, this is actually part one of a theory, as I stated/implied at the end. I got another piece which is not so "commonly thought of." Also, while the theory may be "stated in 2 sentences" - it is also better off if supported.

I am sure if I said it the same way Killamus did in the beginning, then I'd be asked to explain. It's a curse really, if you start simplified, you're asked to explain, if you start fully explained, you're criticized or someone simply comments that it could just be said in a more simplified manner, which everyone then agrees with the simplification.

For the bar being stamina and mana, I would think that too, except for one thing: Stamina decreases during movement (usually faster movement). You can run are a decent speed and the bar never goes down. If it included stamina, then at least a pip would be removed.

Of course, I didn't intend to link the energy bar to just mana, but mana and "normal" energy - which would normally go into stamina as well, I suppose. So the argument can go both ways.

This, mainly, is why I focused the bar to be more towards mana, instead of just stamina or the combination. Though it would have some stamina characteristics, due mainly to game mechanics and not lore, it acts more as mana than stamina.

However, running faster than the 'normal' run without external aid does cost either energy (Sprint, for instance), adrenaline (Rush). It could be that the characters are simply fit enough that they can jog for long periods without noticeably tiring, and this jog is the default movement speed.

Of course, once you bring individual skills into it, things do become exponentially more complicated (especially non-magical ones like "Charge!"). I think they can be explained on a case-by-case basis, but, well, that's a lot of cases. Another alternative is to fall back to the concept that there's a certain amount of magic that can be tapped into without formal training, and skills like "Charge!" are in fact at least partially magical in effect despite coming from an apparently non-magical profession.

(Which, as well as bringing us back around to a direct equivalency of energy and magic, would also help key in to how the Bloodstones might prevent a character from tripleclassing (or more) by adding "nonmagical" professions to the two magical ones that the Bloodstones allow...)

Nothing that occurs in a universe defies logic, as it's all part of a code (which is examined by science).

Physics is science, and therefore, it's just an understanding of these natural laws. Again, nothing can defy these natural laws. It can be written into the code and flow along with the laws, but it can't defy the laws.

In GW's case, magic is written into the laws.

Like you said, "Magic can only add onto physics, not change it."

That was a very interesting read!

I think the closest the real world can get to that is the Tibetan monks; they can increase their body temperature through meditation.

Great work Konig! I really liked the way you explained and combined magic and energy. Although, I have some thoughts that I would like to discuss.

Magic was not a natural thing in Tyria. It was Abaddon who incautiously and freely gave it to the sentient races of Tyria. Aside from it's nature (destruction, aggression, preservation and denial) we don't know too much about it. It seems the gods and the Ancient Dragons used it before. (Primordus bleeds magic.)

We know nothing about Magic in the reality aside from fantasy. So if it really exists, then perhaps the physical laws don't even apply to it, like the case with black holes.

I would consider magic as radiation instead of energy. Of course, radiation comes with energy emission and absorbance: a body emits energy that travels through space until it is absorbed by another body. It would be the case with several magical objects and places: Mouth of Torment (Abaddon's corrupt power is flowing out from such tear in the reality), the bloodstones and creatures with incredible amount of Magic/power (like Primordus). And this could somehow explain how the Riders collect/harness/absorb magic.

I absolutely agree with Draxynnic's posts. There are some skills (like Troll Unguent, Endure Pain and Defy Pain) which don't even belong to the magical skills. The two warrior skills use stamina and the bodies' endurance ability to last longer on the battlefield. I don't know what's the trick in Troll Unguent that uses energy.

And my last thought is your question about Magic: is it infinite or not?
I would think that it is. In the case of the Ancient Dragons it seems that they have some kind of connection to the Mists. When they use magic they consume some of their powers. After this their draw more power from the Mists, to fully regain their former self.
And thus, I would think that the Mists and the Universe are infinte->infinite amount of power/magic

I didn't want to undermine your theory, these are only my thoughts about this topic.

Nitpick!

While it's a common meme that the laws of physics break down in a black hole, that's actually, to use Science of Discworld terminology, a lie-to-children. The laws of physics do apply, it's just a subset of the laws of physics that we haven't worked out yet. (Specifically, the point where quantum mechanics and general relativity intersect - the two theories are incompatible. Resolving this is one of the holy grails of modern physics.)

Ranger skills are actually one of the serious flies in the ointment of any study like this. Paragons do have some tie to magic even if it isn't in the form of spellcasting, Assassins actually use spells, and Warriors have the Charles Atlas Superpower if nothing else - but a lot of Ranger skills are largely based around the idea that the Ranger brings along a bunch of special arrows and supplies that are then used in various skills. Realistically, the likes of Poison Arrow, Flame Trap and Troll Ungeunt should be limited to a number of uses per instance according to how much of each can be carried, but (probably for balance) ANet resorted to energy instead.

One pet theory I have regarding this is that Rangers are actually to Ritualists as Assassins are to Mesmers and/or Necromancers, and as Dervishes are to Monks and/or Elementalists - a hybrid between physical combat and a specialised form of the magic of the full spellcasting profession. This theory is supported in part by the fact that they both share spirits (although those of Rangers come from nature rather than the afterlife) - it's possible that traps may simply be the Ranger equivalent of an attack spirit rather than mechanical traps, and the more supernatural Ranger attacks are actually a specialised form of weapon spell.

By your opinion.

Another way would be to have materials that have a lower density than the air, as shown by certain gases in balloons. If you just want it to float in place, it'd probably need to be a certain density, so that it will float, while not floating beyond into the sky. That aside, the problem isn't so much that it's impossible, it's that in the instances seen in Tyria there isn't anything supporting the floating structures, but there they are, floating, without any semblance of an obvious energy source in constant use, or constantly supplying the floating structures.

Which begs the question of, where is the energy coming from? Even my theory on water's magical conductivity doesn't completely explain this. Sure, when the water's falling the particles are excited, possibly irradiating the surrounding area with magical energy causing the stones to float, thus giving it a possible magical energy source. The problem, of course, being that there isn't a waterfall in sight around the Wizard's Tower.

Er..Last I checked, it would just be by raising the kinetic energy of the atoms and molecules. As temperature in general is just the average kinetic energy of atoms and molecules within an object. In reducing the kinetic energy, an object becomes cooler, and in increasing, it becomes hotter. Unless you're meaning rearranging the atoms and molecules within the air to make a more flammable, and thus easier to ignite, gas.

Ignoring the fact that moving and changing atoms in such a way isn't that easy at all. One of those key reasons magic is admired or desired.

Except that we don't see anything or hear anything that suggests this. It just appears to be like walking through a doorway, in most instances. You'd think they'd take the opportunity for Vekk to mention that as a joke towards the player, "By the way, you were just torn to pieces and reassembled as you went through that gate." Alas, missed opportunities.

Which almost seems to be the deal with the Ancient Dragons, at least in the case of Drakkar. As it did not exert any energy until it was tapped into by another source, Svanir.

As in the case of the mortal-to-God/Goddess transition.

Hm..Just joking around here, but by that logic, we could do more through physics if we got closer to a black hole..Black holes, a physicists' playground.

I think the word you're looking for is plasma. That's the best word to describe their matter. It's not exactly a liquid, nor a gas, but a weird sort of solid-liquid mixture.

Bah, I wanted to nitpick that nit!

Note: I'm not a physicist, but I like to think I could be classified as a scientist, thus, while I'll argue some absurd things, it's the absurd things that can be the best arguments. Quantum mechanics is an excellent example of weird, strange, nearly absurd to some, science, that, despite this, proves a viable means to explaining aspects of our universe. Absurdity in the name of science is the best kind, I think.

I simply just don't understand a thing about physics and/or science, so I'll leave my speculations out of this.
Aside that, you explained it well, and I agree with all Draxynnic 'add-ons' to the thread.
Great theory to how the whole magic thing would work out.

Off-topic: Actually, every and any concept of magic throughout fiction and history can be linked into two different types of magic: "Physical Magic" and "Mental Magic" - physical being something you can see, mental being something like telepathy. And this can be related to Physical easily. But past this goes into the second part of my theory, so I'll stop here.

Magic may not be natural to tyria, but it is natural to the universe. Everything in magic we see does not defy rules of physics, just adds onto it and appears to defy this. Why the Ancient Dragons have a large amount of magical ability goes to my second theory.

Actually, physics can be put into black holes as well, and is (draxynnic could tell more, even if we stay out of quantum science). Though that is off-topic. And magic does have an existence in non-fiction in reality as well, under the name of psionics: psychic abilities.

Actually, magic can easily seep out if it was designed to do so. I explained the bloodstones, and as said, the Ancient Dragons' and gods' usage of magic is part of my next theory. If one absorbs magic, they can only hold a certain amount, afterwhich they will either be forced to emit magic or they will be destroyed. This would be the case for energy as a whole. It is naturally impossible for an object to hold more energy than it can withstand. This is where the idea of exploding heads from (usually radiation) waves comes from. One way of thinking, is that magic is a force that can make radiation, and not "is like radiation." If you understand what I mean.

The main point: Radiation is a thing. Magic is an action of controlling things. Think of it as "an extension of the body."

Like I said, the energy bar does hold some stamina, which makes it so much more annoying.

In a way, magic is infinite, but only because magic is not a "thing" but an "action." The "source" of magic may come from the Mists, but the Mists cannot give energy, which would include magic, or create something without spending energy. In order to spend energy, it must gain energy, thus my theory that spirits, once "destroyed" gives the Mists this energy comes into play.

I personally disagree, though this is somewhat off-topic, and say that the Ranger's use of energy is purely, if not mostly (there most likely is some magic found) the use of stamina via putting things together. Building a trap could get tiresome. But like you said before, it would be more of things the Ranger brings and should be based on number of items, instead Anet chose energy. I view the use of energy in the stead of stamina to be purely game mechanical.

The earliest mention I know of magic in relation to physics is by Quintus (which was that magic defies physics). But do note, I said "Most that give their opinion" - this is merely an observation, and I have never once seen someone say magic is just an extension of the laws of physics.

Changing the density of an object would also work, and would probably be the "easier method" of doing such. However, doing that is also the harder to accomplish method, as if things levitate, they don't seem to lose their weight, thus it is just potential energy which is changed, not density.

As for where energy comes from, it depends on the source.

It would, in essence, be either or, or both. Depends on the job at hand.

Just because that is how it is done, doesn't mean the person knows they are doing such a thing. In most instances, if people think of how they want their magic done, they just think "a ball of fire" or "heal this wound" - they don't think "change the air atoms to carbon and other atoms in the human body and connect them to the skin and blood vessels and muscles of this body." I was explaining how it is done in physical sense, not a mental sense. Going any further would go into my next theory, more or less, though.

Kind of like above, even by use, one may not understand what is actually happening. You need to ask "how much do they know of molecules, atoms, bacteria" - my guess, very little.

This, unfortunately, goes into the next theory, which is going just past the line of off-topic in this thread. So, until I write it out!

or "ectoplasm" - Yes, I did temporarily forget of that, and yes, that would be the substance of them. Plasma, if anything, would be a "non-solid solid."

Just a note, I do intend on posing my arguments..However, not now as my head's bugging me a bit.

magic is the use of supernatural power to make impossible things happen
"to make impossible things happen"!
this means it cant be controlled by the possible : physics

Did you even read anything? Everything we see magic do is possible. Magic is just another means of achieving what alone is impossible. It's the opposite of science, just another means of doing the same things. But it is still limited to the laws of physics.

Psychic abilities are not a form of magic. They come from advanced brain and mind functioning. A normal human uses 7-10% (I don't know the exact numbers) of his/her brain, and the major part of this efficency is to support and keep up life functions (breathing, heart-beating, hormone production, etc.). It has been suggested and theorized, that in the later parts of human evolution, the brain capacity will grow larger and larger thus these psychic abilities (other known as telekinesis) would appear. Although it's off-topic and there's no eveidence that it would really exist.

I don't think of it as "an extension fo the body". Telekinesis WOULD BE an extension of the body, or MAYBE it is.
Magic is more like the Force from Star Wars. (I'm an SW fan)
And as stated in the manuscripts:

I know that the two universes differ from each other in a lot of things, but...
The Mists is the source of everything: good and evil, of all the matter and knowledge, so it's the source of Magic as well. You know what, I would dare to say that Magic is the extension of the Mists. And as Obi-Wan said that the Force is what binds the galaxy together. In GW Universe it's the Mists.
Just to find more link between the Force and the Mists: the Mists is the source of all evil and good. And the Force has a Dark and Light Side.
It's off-topic too, but I would like to prove my thoughts and theories about Magic.

Spirits are not destroyed! After they leave behind the mortal realms with the help of the Envoys, they go to the Underworld where they are judged by Grenth. The heroes go to the Hall of Heroes, and those, whose deeds were not legendary or worthy/good will be stranded on the mortal realms.
Thus, your spirit-destroying and energy-gaining idea does not fit.
There coould be two possible explanation (perhaps there's more, but I don't know)

1.) The Universe/Mists is/are infinite.

2.) It gains energy from an unknown source, which we still don't know.

Terribly off-topic, but tell me this: How does one control magic? Next, why don't you think of the similarities between Psionic abilities and magic. They go hand in hand, only different names and times. Magic is the term for the "unexplainable" which was only unexplainable in the past. As for the evolution part, I intend to get into that with my next theory - once I write it up.

The force, even moreso, can be viewed as "telekinesis" - and in fact, all form of psionic abilities can be simplified into two things: telekinesis and telepathy - if you look at magic, then you get the same things, though for GW with the exclusion of telepathy's magical equivilant - you get levitation and movement. I ask again: How do you control it? If you didn't get it yet, with the mind and will of a being. Then you can ask yourself something else: What else can the mind and will of a being control? the body. Thus, magic can be seen as an extension of the body - but more specifically, an extension of the mind.

You forget something. We destroy spirits in the Rift (Realm of Torment, Fissure of Woe, and Underworld to be specific). Prime examples: Shiro Tagachi and Vizier Khilbron in the Gate of Madness. Yes, they are spirits. So what happens to them? Read the spirits thread for all the possibilities.

But the most likeliest possibility is that the essence of the spirit, if/when they are destroyed, goes to the Mists and act as energy to create new things. Nothing is infinite. Nothing is unlimited. These are mere words conceived to explain the unexplainable, much like the word magic was in ages past, later renamed psionics because it had gained a theory behind it.

I know I am terribly getting off of GW now, so I'm going to leave it at that. Thalador, I'll be more than happy to continue the non-gw related things in PM (such as the relation between psionics and magic), but not in the thread anymore.

There is a book called "physics of impossible". Even appearance of ghosts can be described by the quantum theory equations. Magic indeed seems to be a way of transforming energy which is all around. Interesting thoughts OP.

Meh, Quantum Physics is just attempts to explain the unexplainable, which, by explaining how magic would work, I have explained it, thus it is explainable and has no true place in Quantum Physics in terms of it's existence. The part which does, however, is why it can be used, but that is left more for psychology than anything else. But meh, off-topic.

To quote Arthur C. Clarke "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

The way the rift and energy works in guild wars is sufficiently advanced technology which we are discovering, the word magic and physics are interchangeable.

Technically, a plasma is when you start with a gas and keep heating it until it ionises. Flame is an example of a plasma, as is the flash of a lightning bolt. Largely, they behave like gases (at the same temperature and pressure) except for their response to electromagnetic fields.

Under an electromagnetic theory of magic and consciousness, plasma would be a good fit for ghosts (the plasma could be contained by a set of electromagnetic fields) but I'm inclined to think GW's ghosts are made of something unknown to science...

...just like the majority of the mass of the universe.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Of course, this doesn't actually say that anything that magic might allow is actually possible...

However, if magic does exist in a particular universe, it's part of the laws of physics of the universe.

I know a lot of people who would feel quite insulted at that description. Quantum mechanics is still a fairly young branch of physics that is still not fully understood and is hard to understand at all without going through the equations, but having studied it myself and worked through the equations, it's just as valid a branch of physics as any other and more than some. Really, quantum mechanics weirdness is really only weird because at a macroscopic scale, it kinda gets averaged out and thus we don't directly experience it, but without it, speaking as an apprentice nuclear physicist who's studied how larger elements are produced in stars, we wouldn't be here.

Anyway, going back on topic here's what I've been thinking (and this is a bit stream-of-conscious-ish, so forgive me if it gets incoherent at times):

First, what is magic? When trying to mix magic with reasonably hard science, there are three possibilities I can think of for doing so:

The first is quantum mechanics. As GmrLeon says... weird. One of the weird things is that, according to QM, things that we intuitively consider impossible are, in fact, just highly improbable - for instance, it is theoretically possible for a person to spontaneously teleport ten metres. The probability is so low that you could wait until the heat-death of the universe and you probably won't ever see it happen, but it's theoretically possible - and if an entity could find a way to tweak those probabilities to make those near-impossibilities happen, then what they could do with it is almost unlimited.

The second is electromagnetism. People tend not to realise just how significant electromagnetism is, tending to associate it with, well, electricity, static, magnets, and maybe light. However, it's also the force that controls chemical reactions, and, more intuitively important to most people's everyday lives - it's electromagnetic forces that prevent solid objects from passing through one another. And unlike QM, we do have examples in the animal world of creatures that can generate electromagnetic effects - electric eels, for instance. While that's a fairly crude example, it's possible that sufficiently precise control of electromagnetic fields could result in a number of effects normally associated with magic.

The third is something that isn't known to science. This isn't the copout that it sounds - science is one of those areas where the more you know, the more you realise we don't know.

So which is it in Guild Wars? Well, one well-known item of Guild Wars lore is that magic can be regulated, through the medium of the Bloodstones. This wouldn't work under the QM or the EM theory - once a wielder knew how to perform some feat, they wouldn't need to remain attuned to some stone to be able to continue performing that feat. So magic, in GW, is something outside our science. (This does not mean it can't be scientifically analysed, and I'm willing to bet that the Asura are doing just that.)

The next thing to consider is... how is magic organised?

Well, what we know is that it's divided 4 ways, among the various Bloodstones. Some might consider there to be a 5th way, through the keystone, but while I am a proponent of that theory myself, for now I will consider just the four canon divisions.

Comparing to other fantasy games, the branches of magic are similar to a modified Magic: the Gathering array. We don't have nature magic (at least, it isn't tied to a bloodstone...) but we have life magic (white), necromancy (black), elemental magic (red), and mental magic (blue).

Now, considering this, I'm going to try to explain the three 'unknown' damage types: Chaos, Dark, and Holy. Looking through the professions, it can be observed that no single profession uses more than one of these types: Mesmers and Elementalists use Chaos damage, Necromancers and Ritualists use Dark damage, and Monks, Dervishes, and Paragons can inflict Holy damage, but none use more than one. Going back to the four Bloodstones, that gives us the following associations:

Life: Holy
Death: Dark
Elemental, Mental: Chaos

So, let's consider the associations these types of magic have:

First, life mages are pretty much always spiritual in nature. Often, they are priests of some deity or another, but even when they aren't, they usually believe they're responsible to something - a philosophy, the good of their fellow sapient, something. In Guild Wars, this fits for human examples of each profession that uses Holy damage in some form - each of the three has some religious overtone.

Elemental and mental magic practitioners, on the other hand, tend to go the other way - they tend to be cerebral types that gain their abilities through study rather than spiritualism. Again, this fits in with the behaviour of NPC elementalists and mesmers - they tend to spend their time engaging in magical research and studying strange creatures, sometimes to the extreme of performing dangerous experiments and creating strange (and dangerous) creatures. So the magic types that employ chaos damage have something in common.

Finally, you have the death magic practitioners, which may be cerebral or spiritual, but have a clear source of power that's seperate to the others - the dead. Pretty simple, really.

So, we have three different damage types, each associated with types of magic that is acquired in different ways - holy through spiritual means, chaos damage-associated magics through study, and dark damage draws on the dead. Could this be a hint that before the Bloodstones were seperated, magically naturally came in three flavours rather than four? If so, this would mean the identity of the three damage types is actually fairly simple - they're simply a packet of the magic in question that is flung at the target in its pure form instead of being converted into an element beforehand.

One fly in the proverbial ointment is that there are plenty of creatures that wield a certain magic type that don't have the associated quality - it's hard to imagine a Rider or Drake reading books, after all. However, it's possible that they have something better - an instinctive understanding of how to use the magic type they use (or at least those specific skills that they use). Alternatively, the associated personality traits might be more of an effect than a cause - you don't need to be spiritual to wield life magic or cerebral to wield chaos-related magic, but doing so encourages those traits in the practitioner... if the practitioner is capable of developing those traits.

So, now that we've identified three primal flavours, what is the nature of each?

Life magic I tend to think of as being something like, ironically enough (since I was thinking of this before Thalador posted) the Force - an energy field that connects all living things. As a result, a practitioner of life magic cannot tap into this power source without the feeling that they are a part of something larger than themselves. Different practitioners may interpret this in different ways - a human might view it as their patron deity, an Asura might consider it the to be the Eternal Alchemy, and a post-revolution Charr might see it as the greater superiority of the Charr race - but each knows they are part of something greater.

Death magic, on the other hand, is the energy of the spirits of the dead - essentially the flipside of the coin of Life magic. This is my alternate suggestion of what spirits are formed from - essentially condensed forms of death magic.

Chaos is then a bit of a mystery, but the most logical possibility is that it's the energy of the Mists that isn't linked to a living or dead creature.

Finally, considering the idea that souls are born out of the Mists and, eventually, dissolve back into the Mists some time after their death, this suggests that these three flavours of magic may in fact be in a constant cycle. The souls of new living creatures are born from the chaotic energies of the Mists, linking that energy into the web of life and converting it into "holy" energy. When the creature dies, some of that energy is converted into Dark energy to form its spirit in the afterlife (Necromancers may also influence this process, claiming some energy from a departing spirit or even forcing this process to occur prematurely in living subjects to convert life force into energy). Finally, when a spirit experiences final oblivion and dissolves into the Mists, their spiritual energy reverts to a chaotic state, possibly to repeat the cycle.

To the question of why the Bloodstones aren't simply split along flavour lines - it's possible that the typical equilibrium state has twice as much magic in the chaos form than the other two. To achieve equity between magic types, then, the gods created one bloodstone each for Holy and Dark magic, but split the bloodstone for Chaos magic to modulate it into two seperate forms - one that is more useful for manipulating the physical environment (elemental magic), and one that is more useful for manipulating other kinds of magic, including that found in the spirits and bodies of others (mesmer magic).

Alternatively, it may be that instead of this distinction being externally imposed, elemental and mesmer magic represent different stages in the evolution of chaos magic - one might be magic that has relatively recently been released from a dissolving spirit, while the other might be magic that is almost ready to give birth to a new living soul and restart the cycle. While arguments could be made either way, I would be inclined to think, due to the parallels between the magic types, that Mesmer magic would be the form that has relatively recently dissolved from a sentient spirit (possibly still carrying traces of that sentience, explaining its affinity for manipulating the mind) while elemental magic is the form that has been cleansed of traces of any former lives and is ready to create anew.

So, in the end, the cycle goes as following:

Other professions then employ specialised parts of each magic type. Ritualists sit in the same zone as Necromancers, but while Necromancers lean closer to the chaos side of the boundary, Ritualists sit closer to the Monk side. Dervishes and Paragons wield Holy damage effects but also have a mix of Elementalist-style effects (especially the Dervish), so they may draw more from younger, more chaotic sections of the holy magic area than the Monks. Finally, Assassins operate close to the boundary between Dark and Chaos.

Although, one could easily say that humans are narrow-minded on Tyria, as they still think Tyria was the first world ever created. It could just as easily be that somehow they introduced magic across all of the Mists, in the form of giving others the ability to actually tap into and manipulate it, something which would appear to have been restricted to the Gods prior to this. Another way of looking at it may simply be a sudden evolutionary jump in everything, but only in their brains, going by your outlook on it.

Despite having a decent amount of knowledge regarding physics, I still don't think that's completely true. That an object or entity can only contain a certain amount of energy, emitting it in a certain form, or they will be destroyed. I think it depends entirely on the way the energy is injected or utilized with the entity or within the entity. For instance, in the case of teleportation, it requires a huge amount of energy to split a person into each individual atom, and then reassemble them on the other side properly.

The energy involved is merely manipulated to interact with the body in a different manner. Although, there's another, quantum idea, I think it is, that's much cooler, but takes just as much effort. That's off-topic though.

Also, about the radiation thing that, at least in my opinion, you're doing a not-so-great job of explaining..I think you mean magic is like a stream of electrons. That is to say, like an electron, it acts both as a particle (solid magical attack, i.e. meteorites, ice, etc.), and a wave (radiating magic, etc.), which acts as both a particle at times, and as a wave at others, the wave being the radiation if I'm not mistaken. In short, as one manipulates the Mists, it would be more or less manipulating the particles to act in a certain manner, particles in one, waves in others. I would say that when one manipulates it in the wave form, is when one utilizes the Mesmer's form of magic, such as stealing information and magical energy itself.

However, the key problem here, is that the particles they're manipulating are not just the Mists, as far as we know. They interact with matter and air, which, I suppose, we must assume has the same composition as our universe's matter and air. That is to say, electron, proton, neutron, etc.

So, the question then becomes, is the Mists an energy source, a gigantic array of unconscious understanding of the physical properties of the universe that one uplinks to to enact their "magic" or, is it both all at once?

Yeah..Extension of the mind would have been much better, as while the mind is, at least theoretically if I'm not mistaken, a byproduct of neural processes in the brain, it's literally an alternate entity in Tyria. Tyria, unlike our world as far as we know, is dualistic. Mind and body are separate. Well, soul and body, I guess would be the proper terminology. Soul remains synonymous to mind, in my opinion, but that's beside the point.

Probably just the way it's written, but the way you have to spend energy, it must gain energy, just clicks in my head as, as soon as energy is spent, it must immediately gain energy. Which I know is probably not what you're saying. [Also, I wouldn't be so quick to say the Mists cannot give energy. By the very act of creation of living organisms, it is in part providing energy for their life. The downside being that it doesn't continually provide energy in the sense of life support.] And those last three sentences might as well be junk, as I was only reading a part and not the whole of that sentence.

I could have sworn he once suggested the same thing you're suggesting now, though..

...And that last part still remains the problem. Also, you would mean "as if things levitate, they don't seem to lose their mass" as a change in density would either be a Δm or ΔV. We can at least observe the volume, and while we can't be certain, it doesn't appear to have been altered. So, it would seem that the mass must have been altered in some way to decrease the overall density.

Remember, weight is just the exertion of gravity on mass. And since the gravitational field in the area doesn't appear to be altered, (we're not constantly floating around, for instance, as I imagine it would need to be dramatically altered for the stones to float) it must be what I noted above.

As I thought.

Which is now making me wonder if my "gigantic array of unconscious understanding" is close to touching on that.

Actually, they might know quite a bit about bacteria, as Necromancers tend to utilize it quite a bit. And, well, they study the dead, they probably have a far more intimate understanding of decaying flesh and the bacteria involved than one would expect. Molecules and atoms, though, yeah, probably not so much. I don't think they have the instruments to study either.

Er..What? Telepathy is communication between minds.

I beg to differ, but it's more my opinion, and perspective, than anything legitimate. Not covering the rest of that post due to its irrelevance to the actual subject matter.

Believe it or not, I was actually thinking that as I typed my point on plasma.

Have to agree here. I didn't even study to be a nuclear physicist or a physicist, but I still grasp enough of the material, and usually rather easily at that, to understand its place in our universe. Although, one still has to love this quote:

I'm going to stop here, though. I think if I tried to go further, I might go over the character limit..And aside from that, I don't see anything incredibly absurd in Draxynnic's post that I want to argue at the moment. (In other words, just taking a break for now.)

0o I woke up, Konig your arguement is flawed at this point. Heat is not a constant, (A constant function is one that does not depend on the independent variable) Heat is completely dependent on the amount of energy put in and the efficiency of what you are using. The total amount of energy in the system is a constant. Furthermore, heat is simply kinetic energy it is simple molecular vibration and movement.

That is actually why I said a "non-solid solid" or "liquid solid." At first, plasma didn't really cross my mind, but when Leon first said it I immediately thought of how video games, such as doom or quake, show their "plasma gun" which is a lot like a liquid and then I thought ectoplasm(a) so my train of thought fooled me.

NPC behavior and traits differ on the continents they reside. Elementalists in Cantha learn purely through fighting and scoff at those who learn through studying - while Tyrian is learning through studying and experimenting, and Elonians are more of "peace lovers." The personality difference is the same for all continents - though, of course, there are some exceptions.

The only creatures I've seen this be the case for - that is, them showing they know they are a small part of something large - would be the Druids, perhaps the Avatar of Dwayna, and the Asura through the Eternal Alchemy as you pointed out. So, while possible, I find it skeptical myself.

Another thing regarding "Life/Holy" magic, there is an issue here I see: Holy magic damages, while "life" magic heals. They are two different things. And everything which links itself to "life magic" as being "a part of the large" would be linked not to Holy - and thus Balthazar - but to healing, and thus Dwayna.

I personally tend to think that there are really two "categories" of magic; schools, and (as you put it) "flavors" of magic. Meaning that Destruction, Preservation, Denial, and Aggression would not be linked to Holy, Dark, and Chaos. As stated above, healing (thus Preservation) and holy do not go together. If they would be linked, Holy would go into Destruction. Chaos can be viewed as going into Denial, and Destruction, and Dark as Aggression, and perhaps again Destruction. The three "flavors" all are damage based, with Dark and Chaos also going into their believed profession specific schools. But that connection to the other schools could just be due to the Professions.

Unfortunately, my mind isn't functioning that well at the moment, so I am unsure how to word my own theory. Meh.

What I meant by "cannot give energy" I meant cannot produce energy out of nothing. And I wouldn't say it must immediately gain energy, but before it can spend any more energy, it would require to gain energy. Just like if you were to go for a run until your exhausted, you need to regain energy in order to do certain things. Most energy, for the human body, comes from sunlight and food.

Not that I've ever seen, which would mean most large threads on GWO. Only mention of physics I've seen Quintus mention is what I've said: Physics exist except in the case of magic. Which, like many things he's said, seems to have been widespread - even if they never read him type that out.

Actually, if it were your case, it would be mass. But I meant in my case: if things are levitated, then they are just as heavy as if they were on the ground.

Exclusion of Telepathy's magic equivalent. Telepathy is a psi ability term, "telepathy's magical equivalent" would mean whatever term is used for magical communication between minds (I've seen many). So for GW's "magic" it would be simply limited to levitation or telekinesis. There is no "mind to mind communication" shown in GW. This is what I meant.

Eh, it was 5 am when I wrote this theory, so I'm sure there are many more wording issues. And it's not so much of a flaw, as it is a typo. As that is just the background and was only to help explain the transference of energy - even in the form of heat. Which would lead to the background behind fire and cold magical damage.

Eheheheh. Yerssss, the Doom/Quake plasma weapons with little round plasma globs that travel slower than bullets...

Now, a real plasma weapon would probably put you even more in mind of a liquid - think of a very dangerous water pistol powered by electromagnetic fields rather than air pressure where each 'squirt' travels at a significant fraction of the speed of light and you probably won't be far off.

Point - although in the case of Tyria and Cantha, these are essentially different kinds of learning by experimentation...

Perhaps 'part of something larger' isn't the right term, but they're certainly connecting to something larger while using that form of magic. As I said, different races will likely view it differently according to their beliefs, whether that's the Dream, or the god that the practitioner worships (most likely Dwayna or Balthazar, but the monk profession isn't exclusive to their worship - Kehanni, for instance, was a monk priestess of Lyssa, so presumably she interpreted the effect as being Lyssa's presence).

By contrast, and this is something I meant to put in the previous post but forgot: Practitioners of death magic interact with individual spirits and the energy they grant rather than a continuum - which can be a religious experience (it's direct interaction with Grenth's domain, after all) but could also be viewed simply as a matter of bargaining with or coercing spirits to do your bidding (Ritualists) or grant you power (Necromancers) - the individual spirits don't give the sense of being from a source superior to the practitioner that holy magic does. Chaos magic, on the other hand, is simply a tool, encouraging those who use it to experiment to find new methods of doing so/

This is something else I was meaning to mention but forgot.

If you consider modern medicine, there are a lot of things that are beneficial if applied correctly, but may be harmful if, well, not applied correctly. Holy magic works the same way - when refined through a spell or skill, it can be employed to heal or prevent harm... or if smiting is your preference, it could instead be concentrated into a form that causes maximum harm to the target. In its natural, raw form, however, it's just as harmful as any other type (and more so to undead).

While I'm here, there are a couple of things Konig asked in whispers that I should probably put here for completeness:

Q: Where do Elementalists use chaos damage?
A: Energy Storage staves and wands, and possibly Energy Blast (although that isn't confirmed).

Q: What about Necromancers using both Dark and Shadow damage types?
A: I see them as being the same thing with different names (like Light and Holy used to be. (Expanded from original response) If you really want a distinction, Shadow damage may be the refined form of Dark damage as produced by a skill instead of just flinging a glob of the stuff at the target

First of all, Kehanni is a mesmer (according to the wiki - no skills seem to be shown, only proof there would be would be weapons seen used by her, but that's still iffy - point is, no proof of her being a monk). Second of all, couldn't that "connecting to something larger" be considered the Mists? Or am I just misunderstanding what you mean, simply due to the fact that well, makes no logical sense to me (me and illogical ideas don't mix).

I suppose that does make some sense. But I still am unsure whether the three "flavors" of magic are connected to the schools of magic.

Tahlkora, then:

It could be, just that part of the Mists most directly connected to living things.

The main thrust of my argument is that holy damage and associated professions, as the name implies, always seems to be tied up with religion in intelligent creatures, therefor there's something about it that encourages spirituality in the user - and the simplest is that it when used it gives the feeling to the user that they are touching (insert whatever substitutes for divinity in the user's belief system here). An entity who worships the Mists would probably see it as the Mists, and they may in fact be closer to the truth than most.

Yes, yes, I realized that after I had already typed that response.

You do realize that, for the stones, Wizard's Tower, and the structures in Vabbi, there's no real support for that, right? Just as there's no complete support that the mass is altered in my pondering. Until we have the instruments to measure either of these, we can't be certain in either way. And even then, we would need an exact duplicate that hasn't been altered to make comparisons.

..And I'm sure in certain fantasy-worlds, they use exactly the same terminology. Either way, if one were to move their body in the form of levitation, be it for a moment or an extended length of time without any apparatus to assist them, this would remain under the term telekinesis, as it is the ability to move objects with one's mind, and the body is not exempt from this. Also, you're actually wrong about mind to mind communication in GW. Even in the present GW, it is a displayed ability of the Mursaat, albeit simply to extract information.



And, of course, the Dream of Dreams in GW2 would appear to be telepathy as well.

Ironically enough, I think you just went through Kerrsh's examination of the deities of Tyria. Similar in a way as to how I examined them, using Kerrsh's examinations as well, and came to the conclusion that the Gods as the humans see them, are just containers for aspects of the Mists that relate to their domain.

Except that they have personalities, as demonstrated by at least one example of one personality supplanting another (Kormir and Abaddon, to be precise). My personal theory is that the original gods were basically extremely powerful demons - formed out of the Mists with more power than most and the ability to choose to be benign instead of malign. (Of course, we don't know that demons have to be evil in GW, just that the ones we encounter (and fight) usually are. Razah is one counterexample on a smaller scale, and such counterexamples may actually outnumber the malicious - just that the majority of them tend not to concern themselves with the affairs of mortals.)

One area where I think Kerrsh was going astray is that he accepted the omnipotence of the gods as fact, and was then trying to work out the paradox of how one omnipotent being could be stronger than another omnipotent being in one zone of responsibility... a paradox that is easier to work out by simply realising that the gods aren't omnipotent. We kill one, for Kormir's sake!

(By the same evidence, we also know that the gods are real on some level, rather than some metaphor. This does not necessarily mean that everything that is attributed to them is actually their work, however.)

Which would be permitted by the container, the container being the entity (human, demon, yak, whatever) that usurped the power of the previous God or Goddess.

I don't think he completely accepted as fact, more like acknowledging the data before him that suggested that, and trying to figure out how that could possibly work. Kind of like you don't have to take a deity in reality as actually existing to examine and doubt its properties. Also, I wouldn't say they aren't omnipotent, as I would just say they all have a similar amount of power, but are more along the lines of omnipotent within their domain. Er..Basically, it would just be that each God or Goddess is more skilled within their domain. Although I realize that still wouldn't be omnipotent according to the real definition, and that Abaddon seems to undermine it as he was apparently able to fend off two Gods, but, eh, there's just not a good way to put it.

I'm still not sure how real they are anymore. As in, with the Exodus, did they somehow transcend their bodies and become one with the Mists, while maintaining their sentience and sapience? And now, rather than appearing themselves before mortals, they utilize their Avatars as not only messengers but as enforcers of their will into the world. As in the case of requesting help in the Underworld and Fissure of Woe, and then enacting their will via whisking us away to their realm. Which could act as an explanation for "Balthazar's" sudden and brief appearance in Lion's Arch to open a gateway to the Hall of Heroes.

When thinking of my own examples, I wasn't considering Wizard's Tower, but just the Tarnished Coast rocks, and the Vabbian structures. The Vabbian structures are maintained, implying a plausible constant use from others to make sure they stay up. The Tarnished Coast may or may not have been affect by the Cataclysm - such a huge blast would be able to keep rocks levitating with potential energy for a long time.

But like I thought I once said on this topic: It could be either or, depends on the circumstance.

Of what I recall, only the more recent fantasy stories/games.

The Dream of Dreams crossed my mind, but I took that more as an evolutionary trait, and thus was going to bring it up in my next theory - seeing how the Sylvari cannot seemingly communicate to other races this way. As for the Inquisitor, merely forgot about this. Which gives us two races with some form of telekinesis. Thus, once more, supporting it being an evolutionary trait and not common magic.

Telepathy, you mean. Telekinesis is the movement of objects with the mind.

Meeeeeehhhhhhh, I've been making constant typos as of late...

I found Glint's lair quite a remarkable feat. It is a pocket dimension. I don't know the physics behind it (if something like that even exists, or there are theories about it in the reality), but creating a pocket dimension and keeping up the illusion that it's a grain of sand for more than 3000 years would require incredible amount of energy/magic. I can't speculate and prove anything with this, although it would seem that the magic keeping the illusion intact is 'infinite'. Or there's some kind of generator(?) which provides the power. However, the generator too would be flat by now.
Any thoughts?

From the small amount of reading I've done in regards to Quantum Physics and String Theory, one of the ideas about dimensions is that, and I think this is the String Theory idea, that they're nothing like that seen in fiction, they just sort of curl up or something like that. In other words, the extra dimensions would be extremely minuscule, easily ignored, much like atoms or molecules in the air. Then again, there's the other idea that the fourth dimension is in fact time..And that the rest of the gravitational force "leaks" into the other dimensions, which is why it appears so weak in our three (or four) dimensions.

And technically, Glint's Lair isn't an illusion. As far as we know, it's literally a pocket dimension in a grain of sand somewhere. Not to mention, an Asura gate appears to lead into it, suggesting that it is on Tyria, somewhere. We haven't heard of any Asuran gates leading to other dimensions yet, so..

Glint's little pocket dimension is a good question, and not one I have an answer to. Being a bit pathetic in science (well, not so much as pathetic as not caring past what I needed to know to pass), I wouldn't know much.

Should probably read up on Quantum Physics and its theories.

Well, I'm not convinced that the baby dragon we defend actually was in Glint's lair (one might expect Glint, her aspects, and/or her other defenders to have shown up it it was). There are similarities, but it's possible Glint made pocket dimensions for her children to hide in so they'd survive if she gets killed.

(EDIT Checking with Consular Oakencast, I think this is in fact pretty much exactly what's going on. Brand says the child is in a crystalline fortress hidden in a grain of sand in the Crystal Desert, but doesn't say that it's the same as Glint's - just that Glint herself is also threatened... possibly (in fact, most likely) elsewhere.)

As for making pocket dimensions... a more accurate physical term would be 'pocket universes', but it's theoretically possible. It does require a LOT of energy, however. (Technically it requires a lot of negative energy, but any quantity of negative energy requires a greater amount of regular energy to maintain.)

Well, actually, I think it depends entirely on your perspective regarding certain theories. If you're into the Many Worlds approach, which suggests tons of universes that exist due to our choices or another way of looking at it would be, due to the existence of chance, as each decision has a chance of you saying yes or no and certain events are entirely dependent on chance in general..It could be possible that the pocket universe already existed, and it needed the right circumstances to manifest, i.e. Glint's child hatching, and both being targets for attack.

@OP: If "magic" actually happened sometime in the past, then it is part of the physical world, and therefore can be studied and is part of science.

If that is the case, then the distinction between between magic and science is entirely redundant.

The only useful definition of "magic" is the fictional, storytelling definition, which says, "magic" is just an excuse to make amazingly cool special effects and better plot lines.