Dwarves - A possibility.

Well, it's been bothering me for quite a while so I decided to post it.

Basically, as we all know the Deldrimor dwarves were changed into stone by the Great Dwarf to fight the destroyers. And that's a fact. Ok then, but what about the Stone Summit dwarves? They were xenophobic folk and most likely didn't follow the Great Dwarf. Besides they showed little to no interest in fighting the destroyers. So what I'm saying is that they can be still be perfectly fine, even after the fall of their leader Dagnar Stonepate. They just probably elected another one, as they're still ready to fight the players in Eye of the North, eg. Vloxen Excavations.

Anyways, that's just an idea I had. Can't say nothing for sure, but this could be a way to implement larger dwarven settlements in Guild Wars 2. If I got something wrong, please correct me.

Xenophobic.
Xenophobic.
Xenophobic.
If Anet wish to stick with their lore, there will be no accessible dwarven settlements if they were built by Stone Summit dwarves. It just wouldn't make sense.

Unless, it was part of a mission where we raid the settlement and kill everyone! Wooo!

But, you never know. A new Stone Summit Leader could usher in a new age where they are no longer xenophobic and wish to ally with other races in order to fight the ancient dragons.

Plus, don't quote me on this, but weren't there some Deldrimor dwarves who didn't turn into stone?

I'm pretty sure that Eye of the North is showing the downfall of the Stone Summit....or should i say what remains of the Stone Summit. Their presence in the Far Shiverpeaks and the North in general seems to imply they are desperatly trying to gain power. Vloxen Excavations has them looking for an ancient power but of course they didnt seem to understand what that was, and were thwarted by Heroes anyway.

While its not said explicitly, i'm pretty sure the last stand for the Stone Summit is Slavers Exile. Duncan the Black trying to get the power of the Great Destroyer seemed like their last effort, gathering all the remaining ones under powerful leaders, and they are......beaten. Sure there may be some still around but i dont think theres enough of them to continue on.

Well, they've been damaged, but they've got a serious advantage. They can actually reproduce (As long as there are any females around that is.)
As Fate Crusher said, it might be possible that a new leader united the Stone Summit and joined the remaining people of Tyria in their war against the dragons. In the end, if the dragons won, the Stone Summit would be destroyed too, so it might be a "fight and win or do nothing and die" situation.

Just to twist it more...

Maybe they united with the dragons! waaaaah!

lol.

but i was just reading up "The Movement of the World". and it is said that the Norn are forced out from the Northern territories and take refuge in the now abandoned Dwarven territory. So dwarven-style settlements could still be there, just not filled with dwarves ^^.

also from the Article:
They're long gone, dude. With no passion to rebuild their race or culture, not to mention made entirely of stone, The Great Dwarf pwned his own people!

Still, I think the article describes the fate of the Deldrimor, even tough it says "Dwarven Race". My point is the Stone Summit probably rejected the Great Dwarf long before the events in Eye of the North. They almost created a new dwarven race, obsessed with gaining independence and power. Just speculations, I know, but it's fun to speculate

So i guess, if you are made of stone, you live forever, since if we encounter the last remnants of stone dwarves in GW2... it WILL be 200 years into the future, haha.

Know what also sucks for the dwarves? Last time I checked, me and a team of non stone and fleshy henchman single handeldly took down the Great Destroyer..without the dwarves' help. Guess they turned into stone for the lawlz.

Oh there could also be dwarf 'ghosts' in gw2.

As long as they don't walk under acid rain or subject themselves to the effects of weathering, they should be immortal

Yeah, this article is probably the only piece of lore that i will actually believe. And since there is no mention of those Xenophobic dwarves that scared the crap out of me when i first played Guild Wars (i was 14 and i had a vivid imagination...), their future will forever be unknown to me.

And i like that.

Yes. There were a few in Battledepths, including Orozar Highstone and High Priest Alkar, and a few outside, including Kilroy Stonekin and Budger Blackpowder. Plus, of course, Ogden.

However, if you talk to them in the endgame area after "A Time for Heroes", you get the impression from some of them that they plan on undergoing the ritual themselves in the near future. (And didn't Ogden say he wouldn't be undergoing the transformation "at this time" in the cutscene after "Heart of the Shiverpeaks"?)

So the transformation was clearly not a one-time deal, and it's possible that all the Deldrimor dwarves eventually underwent it. Even if they didn't, there may have been too few of them to perpetuate their race.

But where are all the Dwarven women? After we killed the Great Destroyer the remaining fleshy Dwarves (Kilroy, Budger, Orozar, Alkar, Ogden and a few soldiers) could return to their beloved dwarven "chicks" and restart the whole dwarven race. After all we didn't see any women that underwent the ritual. Perhaps they are still out there somewhere.

Edit: The Stone Dwarves could handle the remaining Destroyers in Depths. So nothing depends on a few dozen Dwarves.

Or they could cross-breed with the dragons and create pure imba Dwarfagons. I definitely want Dwarfagons as a playable race! They could be like riding giant dodo birds and drinking Mountain Dew all night long.

Seriously though, I believe we'll see the dwarves in GW 2 in one form or the other, I just thought of one of the ways for ANet to implement them - the Stone Summit.

1. Konig can correct me but I beleive he said Slavers Exile was the last stand of the Stone Summit and they where more or less wiped out after it.
2. Oggy for the time being is not stone, neither are a few merchants if I am correct.
3. Seeing as the stone dwarfs dont die as far as I know. They could have there little place in GW2. I don't really care either way the only important races imo are humans, charr, and asura.

It's the general consensus, I think, amongst the lore community, not just with him. Even if they weren't wiped out there, any pockets of Stone Summit in the Far Shiverpeaks would be wiped out or twisted by Drakkar. And we probably will encounter the Deldrimor Dwarves again, albeit, in their stone form. We have to have a foothold to set out against Primordus's forces somewhere and with someone, and who better to fight with than our old allies the Deldrimor Dwarves. Although where we'll find them is another question entirely..

I believe the foothold will be occupied by the Norn. they after all, took hold of the territory.

Ooooh, warped Deldrimor Dwarves will be fun to fight!

The article explains that the Dwarves are now very rare to come across in one's lifetime, as they are scattered across Tyria, constantly fighting or still being driven by the Great Dwarf to kick Destroyer butt.

My money's on a converted Ogden to appear from the depths to help you. Either that, or he'll take you to your ancestor's HoM >.<

Sidenote: Speaking of the HoM, how the hell can we access that if that area has been taken over by the dragons? My guess is Glint's teleport xD

EDIT: Here is the link to the article if ya'll want to peruse it: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_..._World#Dwarves

Er..They didn't take hold of the Depths, or any point in the Depths. As far as we know, none of the races that we interact with have. That is, of course, in the future.

Also, it would be warped Stone Summit Dwarves, and that's if there were any pockets of them left over from our attacks on them, and if they survived in the 250 years between the present and GW2's present.

The Stone Summit were mostly wiped out at the end of Prophecies due to the death of their leader in Thunderhead Keep and the destruction of their main base called Sorrow's Furnace. Those in EN that we see are the exiles. Slavers' Exile is the last bastion of the Stone Summit. Duncan the Black's death means the end of the Stone Summit.

Also, they worshipped the Great Destroyer on large.

Stone Summit leaders after Dagnar's death were the Heirophants. Most were killed in Sorrow's Furnace, the last (hence the quest name "The Last Heirophant") was in Slavers' Exile. After that, all the leaders would be dead, and probably the possible leaders as well. All you'd have left would be groups like in

I think it was said somewhere, and the Movement highly implies this, that those who were not changed eventually did undergo the rite.

Fate Crusher and Filszul, though I know there is nothing wrong with it, but please don't make hypotheses with just thoughts like the "dwarfagons." We will likely see some stoned Deldrimor Dwarves (I think being turned into stone somehow prevents them from being corrupted by at least Primordus - or else they wouldn't really be living weapons against the Destroyers *and I think Primordus is the true Great Destroyer*).

Everything we have, from Stone Summit Exiles in the Far Shiverpeaks and the death of their leader and destruction of their main base, and the death of their last heirophant (aka last leader), only points out to either the Stone Summit being completely wiped out, or those who survived are so small in numbers, and weak, without leaders that a single Norn could take on all survivors and survive without so much of a scratch.

Maybe they're like Pratchett dwarves and the women are indistinguishable from men to the outsiders?

As for the Stone Summit... I agree with the consensus - they're no longer a going concern. Any survivors left after they'd had their rears kicked all across the Shiverpeaks probably wouldn't have been enough to form a viable population... and it's possible that the Great Ritual eventually caught up with them whether they wanted it to or not.

(Which actually brings up an interesting question... what if the Stone Summit rebellion was actually a last-ditch effort to bring about the survival of the Dwarven race through making a deal with the Great Destroyer instead of fighting it?)

It is possible some were tricked with this belief, but any who knew the prophecy regarding the return of the Great Dwarf and Great Destroyer would know that the dwarven race would cease to exist no matter who won.

I think Dagnar, and his higher ups, just wanted a totalitarian rule over all of the Shiverpeaks and to keep all other races out, dead, or subdued (slaves). The lowers were probably promised some sort of "nobility" status after the SS took over the Shiverpeaks. Those who didn't join for gaining something after the war was finished, were probably forced into joining. And yes, I used SS instead of Stone Summit for a reason - Dagnar and the Stone Summit seem to be a dwarven parallel to Hitler and his SS.

That could be because the prophecy assumed that the dwarves would fight, and they would need to undergo the Ritual to win. So, there were two options - undergo the Ritual and cease to be a propagating race, or don't undergo the Ritual and be wiped out along with everyone else.

The Summit, however, may have been attempting to take a third option - let everyone else die, come to some sort of accommodation with the Great Destroyer, don't undergo the Ritual, and survive. Whether this actually had a chance of working is anyone's guess.

I wouldnt so much as to say that. What would you prefer, bless your people with the gift of invincibilty and pass their legacy into ledgend and beyond; or take a sword through the chest by a Destroyer of Flesh?

The stone dwarves aren't invincible, though - just less vincible, and only as individuals. As a race... lack of reproduction and lack of true immortality/invincibility bites. Sooner or later, attrition will take its toll and the last one will fall.

The theory about the Stone Summit negotiating with the Destroyers is absolutely absurd. The Destroyers cares for nothing except destroying and following Primordus. I doubt the Destroyers would even understand the Dwarves anyways. In the game, Destroyers aggro against -ANYTHING- that is within their aggro bubble, save untouchable NPCs of course. (Although I can't think of any in the presence of destroyers.)

I'm also pretty sure that the movement said something along the lines of "there are a few remaining dwarves residing in caves or far-off places, but most consider them to be simply myths or legends".

You're missing an important point:

Just because all the evidence we have suggests that the Stone Summit couldn't have succeeded doesn't mean they knew that. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the Stone Summit had realised that the final showdown was coming, they were effectively staring at the extinction of their race whether they won or lost. Attempting to Take A Third Option, however insane it may be or unlikely to succeed, is entirely understandable under the circumstances. (Of course, understanding your enemy's reasoning doesn't stop them from being enemies, although it can be the first step towards negotiating a settlement.)

Since I think I've had to explain this a couple of times, let me state it again:

The hypothesis is that the Stone Summit may have been attempting to find a way to cut a deal with the Great Destroyer. There is nothing to suggest that they succeeded in doing so or even that it was possible to succeed.

Why does everyone assume that Ogden went through the ritual? If he wasn't willing to go through it when he first had the chance, why on earth would he do so after the Great Destroyer was gone, and the stone dwarves that had already been made were busy eradicating the other destroyers? If he was going to go through the ritual at all, logic dictates he would have done it with everyone else.

Now, that's not to say that the dwarven race survives through small pockets of dwarves such as he (it's entirely possible that the entire dwarven race devotes itself to the destruction of the destroyers, and only the stony ones end up surviving), but it doesn't prove they don't. All we know is that based on what has been told to us so far, the only dwarves we are likely to see is the stony kind.

Ogden says himself he will at a later time. It probably wasn't done so that he as a hero wouldn't change, and thus would not pose possible spoilers for those who have not gotten that far when they party with someone who brings Ogden and has.

As for why do it later, perhaps because it is supposed to be the work of their god. Devout people do illogical things all the time. And as yourself said "it's entirely possible that the entire dwarven race devotes itself to the destruction o the destroyers" - if they all wanted to kill the destroyers, why wouldn't they under go the rite eventually?

I absolutely agree with your statement. I have some thoughts and some quotations from in-game, which can prove that more or less.

First, the "Great Destroyer" we defeat in the game, has no other name than that. And if it would be his true name, than Alkar would've summoned it several times while we are doing the quest.

Secondly, he says it is the most "malignant creature ever seen by mortal eyes". The Great Destroyer was one of Primordus' general.

A major thought/speculation:
-Although, Alkar didn't know about Abaddon at that time, I would say that the God of Secrets was the most malignant creature. And the Great Destroyer didn't seem 'too evil', I mean it just followed the orders of its master, it was a spawn, not a creature with free will.

I think it was the Great Dwarf, a previous diety, who sealed Primordus within the Depths.

There's one thing I don't understand about this topic. How could the Great Dwarf strip the power of his foe, by taking his name?

So the dwarves work is unfinished, they will have to fight the most serious and brutal battle ever seen in GW verse.

Erm...if nobody knows its true name then it would obviously only be called the Great Destroyer. Because...nobody knew its real name so they called it by the name it was given.....

And it is. The Great Destroyer and the Destroyers are one, and they act like a disease spreading throughout Tyria and destroying everything they come into contact with.

Abaddon wasnt a typical creature though he was a god from who knows where. As for the Great Destroyer not being too evil....one of its purposes was to clear Tyria of life....destroy all other beings without being provoked at all. Generally that would be on a level of evil. Abaddon at least had a reason for wanting to get revenge.....the Great Destroyer just sends them out.

And the other four dragons?

If the Great Dwarf did battle Primordus and in turn named him the Great Destroyer, why didnt the Tome of Rubicon make mention of the fact there was more than one "Great Destroyer" - five infact.

This all depends on if the part about the name is really true or had another meaning.

I personally dont believe Primordus was the real Great Destroyer. Despite many saying it didnt, the Great Destroyer found in the depths lived up to the prophecy. The only part that still doesnt fit is the whole name idea - i still think that it had another meaning.

Yes, but it eventually arose. So, if the dwarves are right about the Great Destroyer, then somebody had spoken it's 'true name'. And here's the problem with your theory. Together, with Alcar we arrived just in time. We claimed it before Hierophant Morlog could speak it's name. And Alkar had a quotation about opening the Tome:

Aside from Morlog (and other hierophants) and Alkar we know no other people/dwarf who could open it. If Alkar was so curious, devout and foolish to open it - because he believed they must fulfill their destiny, which I highly doubt - then there would be no possible explanation for the "Great Destroyer's" rise.

Yes, but I've already known that. The "Great Destroyer" is the most powerful general of Primordus. I raised the possibility that Primordus and the Great Destroyer had some kind of bond or link, so the Ancient Dragon could easily give orders through his general. After his "voice" was no more, he could give no more orders, because the Great Destroyer had the connection to all the other Destroyers.

Abaddon wanted revenge and thus he became corrupted and more evil than he was before. As I mentioned above, if they shared that link/bond with the "Great Destroyer", then it was Primordus who wanted too "to clear Tyria of life".

I highly doubt that. Although, it can still be possible. But what if the Ancient Dragons went to sleep at different times? Just like they awake. So the Great Dwarf met only Primordus. And the dwarves had known the tale of the Great Destroyer since ancient times, so they could have some pictures(?) or descriptions about them. But they didn't have those from the "Great Destroyer". After all, only the Great Dwarf saw it.

I've got two more "evidence" to prove the right about my theory. However they are weaker than the above ones.

The Scyring Pool in EotN warnes us two times about Primordus. More precisely, the second and the last vision. The main point is the last: you can see the "Great Destroyer" and the other Destroyers as they "hail" Primordus.
Now we know that the Great Destroyer is his general. The dwarves thought that they've found their arch enemy, because it was in the vision and it looked similar to its minions, but larger. And they thought that the dragon encased in the stone is only a magical statue=>we know that it's Primordus, but it's possible that the Dwarves thought they are there because of the statue is bleeding magic, and the "Great Destroyer" could create more minions.

The second is the geographical location. If the legend is true about the Great Dwarf as he had forged his own people on Anvil Rock, then he was close to Primordus' sleeping ground. It's my weakest evidence, although it's possible, that after he'd met his arch enemy, he went to the Rock. (Or before.)

It is a hypothesis and a strong speculation, but I don't think that the creature we defeat in A Time for Heroes is the Great Destroyer.

If they decided to call all five "Great Destoyers" - I think it would be easier to just call them "Destroyers" and call their minions something else. It is possible the other dragons had other nicknames - or there was no need to give them such nicknames, assuming the name thing is true. Whether or not the name part is true, I am unsure.

It could be that it wasn't sealing the name, but instead sealing the power, and the release of the seal was the name.

Despite living up to the prophecy, I find it hard to believe that a god or god-like being was evenly matched with the Great Destroyer, which was easier than a chained god. Game mechanically speaking or Lore speaking...

Unless! The Great Destroyer is not the Great Destroyer. Which means the one we fought would have popped up at any time.

He did open it, and read it, but never spoke the name. Or so we know.

There may be a bond, but that would mean the "Great Destroyer" was an extension of Primordus, so it is wanting to clear Tyria of life, but also isn't, as it wouldn't be it's own will - but then again, there may very well be no will.

Er... the "Great Destroyer" is not hailing Primordus, but creating the Destroyers...

This actually is a bit better case than what you said before...

I doubt the two locations are connected in any way.

Er..Anyone who was paying attention to the last parts of Eye of the North's story would have known that it's a confirmed fact the two had a link.

Assuming that he was even evil to begin with, but that's another topic entirely..One that oddly hasn't arose on this forum.

Except that by your own idea, the real Great Destroyer would be Primordus, and it wouldn't have been put to sleep, but knocked out by the Great Dwarf. The rest of your post, I have no idea what you're trying to convey, except that the Dwarves wouldn't have a definite idea of what the real Great Destroyer would look like.

Also, let's just say that Primordus was the Great Destroyer. Alright? Alright. Now, according to Dwarven prophecy, if the Great Destroyer's name is spoken, it will be the end of the world, and according to Alkar, it will bring about the most malignant creature ever seen by mortal eyes. So..By that, we have a major issue. What we know of as the Great Destroyer in-game, was apparently supposed to act as some sort of alarm clock for Primordus, which by killing it, was the equivalent of smashing Primordus's alarm clock.

Well..If the Great Destroyer encountered in-game was supposed to wake up Primordus a few centuries early, and Primordus is the "real" Great Destroyer, and the Dwarven prophecies are completely accurate, that would imply that the Great Destroyer knew the name of the "real" Great Destroyer, Primordus.

But..Either way we look at this we have one incredible issue: Who spoke the true name of the Great Destroyer? In other words, "Will the speaker of the True Name of the Great Destroyer please stand up?"

You forgot that the original prophecy said the Great Destroyer would arrive once again in the future. Never is it said the name alone would cause it to rise, and only through that way would it appear. As was revealed, the Great Destroyers main task was to wake Primordus - so he was going to arrive name or no name.

When Alkar told us about the name being unspeakable he himself had no idea about the Great Destroyers foretold arrival. He only learned of the battle between the Dwarves and the Destroyers after finally going back to the basilica and taking the book back.

Okay...but it still stands....the Great Destroyer was a malignant creature and it had never been seen by mortals.

Actually the Scrying Pools vision moves a couple of times around the cavern eventually focusing on the Great Destroyer. Nobody knew where that cavern was until it showed the dragon causing Vekk to realise. So i could argue that the Eye showed Primordus not to warn us about him but to show us where the Great Destroyer was. After all thats what the heros main focus is when using the Scrying Pool.

As for the hailing part - if i remember correctly its where the Destroyers face the Great Destroyer and cheer/roar (or whatever Destroyers do to show victory). The Great Destroyer is facing them the whole time and when they begin to move off he turns to the statue and roars. Not much hailing of Primordus there.

Well stepping around the whole "What is the Great Dwarf" issue i'll throw out two of my theories regarding the original battle.

The first is that the "Great Destroyer" is just a name for the general of Primordus. What i mean by this is that the Great Destroyer we fought was a different Great Destroyer than the first which the Great Dwarf fought. If i'm correct on this, it would mean a third Great Destroyer will appear in GW2. I wont hold out for that though.

The second and the one i think most plausable is that the Great Dwarf fought all of the Destroyers together. The Destroyers after all are just extentions of the Great Destroyer, and all together could simply be reffered to as "The Great Destroyer".

Its never indicated that Dwarves took part in the first battle - half of them dont believe the Great Dwarf vs Great Destroyer myth until the arrival of the Destroyers. So i believe they were created after the fight with the Great Destroyer.

So imagine how hard it would be for one god-like dwarf (though we still dont know what exactly he is) to fight all the Destroyers plus the Great Destroyer. Remember that all togther they would be immensely powerful and they would think and act like one. It would indeed be a titanic struggle eh?

Think about how the Great Dwarf acts in the second battle - all the dwarves being the Great Dwarf. It could of been he gave them that power due to his first encounter with the Great Destroyer.

Of course thats a far stretch on the great Dwarf power thing but i refuse to beileve the Great Dwarf using a power thats similiar to the Great Destroyers hive mind was coincidental.

Another theory I have is that once the Ritual was completed once, it affected all the Dwarves regardless of whether they were actually there or not. (After all, did Jalis really bring the entire Deldrimnor nation into the Far North Shiverpeaks? It's possible that that was it after the long civil war, but it strikes me as unlikely.) Ogden and others were able to hold it off, but this could have been a matter of having the willpower to hold it off until they eventually succumbed rather than the ritual being something that has to be done deliberately. Otherwise... well, surely the war effort wouldn't be harmed by keeping a breeding population as flesh and blood and having volunteers from that population undergo the Ritual on an individual (or squad, or whatever the minimum number is) basis?

As for the thing about the Great Destroyer being awakened by its name... remember that this quest comes before the Tome was opened and read, so it's probably coming down through Dwarven legend and has had a chance to be corrupted a few times. It's possible that even though the Great Destroyer that the Great Dwarf fought was in fact the same we fought, the name thing was in fact referring to some other threat - possibly Primordus or even Abaddon - that got blurred with the Great Destroyer over time.

Then watch it again, because your memory fails this time:
We can see as the "Great Destroyer" and the other Destroyers roar, then the camera starts to zoom out starting from above the head of the GD. A little bit later we can see as the Great Destroyer turnes its long neck upwards and left.
He is not creating Destroyers, that's 100%. Maybe the Destroyer hail the Great Destroyer, or they are "celebrating"/cherring their upcoming victory (as they thought it will come), but I don't think it would be the case.

Then it's more than a possibility, but prove your statement, please.

Sorry, it was tired and already apologized for any mistakes ^^
But I was trying to say, that the Dragons might have went to sleep at different times. So, the Great Dwarf's possible location would be the Northern Shiverpeaks. When Primordus arrived, they started to fight, and somehow the Great Dwarf "sealed his name", thus stripping its power. It's possible, that the "Great Dwarf knocked out Primordus", but we can't know that for sure. IF Primordus is really the true Great Destroyer, of course.
The second part of my theory was about the depiction or description of Destroyers. After all, only the Great Dwarf saw the real Great Destroyer. And if the dwarves had some description about the Destroyers from the legendary tale, they could've easily thought that Primordus' large general is their arch enemy.

I have to agree with this conception.

Okay, you're more or less right about that.

I suggest you do the same as Konig.

On the main topic about undergoing the Rite, I think Draxynnic's conception is the truth.

I personally think it is this passage or a passage like it that caused the name belief.

You mean watch the cutscene? oh i did and it was exactly as i described it. The Destroyers are facing the Great Destroyer not Primordus. Infact theres about three or four Destroyers turned towards the Great Destroyer who nearly have their backs to Primordus. The only one that acknowledges him is the Great Destroyer - and we already know why that is.

I think you and I are thinking of two different cinematics. I was thinking of Vision 2 and 3 (at least, in 2 I know they were created, 3, not sure).

I'll bring up again that I don't think that the name was literally stripped, but is more of hidden and is the word that would unseal the Great Destroyer's power. As for the Ancient Dragons on a hole scale part - I don't think Primordus "arrived" and we must put into the account of the fact that the Ancient Dragons were around in pre-history. If anything, the Great Dwarf was created after Primordus. Or at a similar time, but still at such an ancient time - and would also mean that there was a vast amount of time between Primordus' fall and the birth of the Dwarves. The time difference is the biggest flaw in the belief that Primordus is the true "Great Destroyer" (of course, there could be the fact that neither Primordus or the Great Destroyer are the "true Great Destroyer").

This is possible, but then they could also think any draconic being would be the Great Destroyer - assuming they have a fiery look about them. (closest thing I can think of that we know of would be Obsidian Drakes from the Fissure of Woe)

And that's the point. Sorry for stretching it (with all the Destroyers hailing Primordus). And such act from the Great Destroyer - turning to its master - would suggest that it has a free will, and a bond, with which Primordus could easily give orders, that its general can transmit to the Destroyers.

I meant the Final Vision (Central Transfer Chamber), sorry for not pointing it out.

But there's a little problem. Primordus had created the Destroyers and the Great Destroyers before he went to sleep. After all he couldn't do it while he was sleeping/encased in that stone (can't use his breath to corrupt/give life to stone). The question is, how did the Great Destroyer we know, get to the Central Transfer Chamber? I would like to point out, that the Great Dwarf fought either the Great Destroyer or Primordus. If he fought Primordus, then the "Great Destroyer" and the other Destroyers were present at that time, and it is 95% that they fought where Primordus was "entombed".
If he fought with only the Great Destroyer, then Primordus was asleep. The other question is, where did they fight they last battle? In Primordus' 'chamber' or elsewhere?

I'm sorry i seem to be straying off the main points made here. How does Primordus possibly giving orders to the Great Destroyer make Primordus the Great Destroyer? we are still on that subject arent we?

We know Primordus is the master of the Great Destroyer.

However it seems to me the point your getting at is that the Great Destroyer should be the highest chain of command, which the one we fight is not therefore it is a false Great Destroyer and the real GD is Primordus. Please do correct me if thats not what your saying.


If you take a look at Primordus closely you will notice something is falling from his head. Little specs which fall down into the lava. And this statue apparantly "bleeds magic".

Absolutely. As you said, "we know Primordus is the master of the Great Destroyer". It's possible, that the Great Destroyer has a free will on its own, but it will obey and accomplish orders from only the Ancient Dragon. More precisely, it might be thinking on its own (creating a strategy for example), but it will stick to the plan/scheme its master had ordered it to achieve. Thus, it was its master's plan to "clear Tyria of life" -> such act/thought could easily give someone the title of Great Destroyer.

I will.

It is very highly possible that the "Great Destroyer" was always in that chamber, most likely sleeping itself (if it wasn't hibernating itself, why didn't it clear all life from Tyria before?) and was somehow able to remain undetected - possibly, it was underneath lava and was, while hibernating, unreachable.

The argument that the title of the Great Destroyer should be only be given to the highest monster is very flawed. Its like how many said the Great Destroyer wasnt the real Great Destroyer because he was easy to beat. The Great Destroyer lived up to what was said about it.

And after all this i remembered something wrote in reply to someone saying they thought we didnt fight the Great Destroyer. It was somewere on the wiki (i think Linseys page) where someone said we probably didnt fight the Great Destroyer and Linsey replied saying we did fight the actual Great Destroyer but the idea behind it was we fought off a huge threat that was unveiling a bigger much more terrifying threat as a foreshadowing to GW2. I'll try and find it.