Air Magic Nukers

The Air Magic line is greatly lacking in AoE damage capability, while it has great spike options, compared to the fire line its AoE damage capabilities are bland.

I like the changes that were made during the last update in August, however I think a few more changes would greatly improve the Air line and I would like to make a few suggestions.

Arc Lightning (5E 1C 6R)

Currently:
Spell. Target foe is struck for 5...41...50 lightning damage. If that foe is suffering from a Water Magic Hex, one foe near your target is struck for 15...63...75 lightning damage. Damage from Arc Lightning has 25% armor penetration.

Change:
Spell. Target foe is struck for 5...41...50 lightning damage. If you are enchanted, 0...1...2 foes near your target are struck for 15...63...75 lightning damage. Damage from Arc Lightning has 25% armor penetration.

Notes:
In order to run this skill to get one extra hit the caster needs to also have investments in the water line I know you guys at A-net want synergy between the Water and Air line but the benefit is not that great. The change gives the caster a conditional clause for the additional damage and with all the enchant striping in the game is a good counter to that additional damage.

Chain Lightning (10E 2C 10R)

Currently:
Spell. Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10...70...85 lightning damage. This Spell has 25% armor penetration and causes Exhaustion if you are not enchanted.

Change:
Spell. Target foe and up to 2...3...4 other foes near your target are struck for 10...70...85 lightning damage. This Spell has 25% armor penetration and causes Exhaustion if you are not enchanted.

Invoke Lightning (10E 2C 10R)

Current:
Elite Spell. Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10...82...100 lightning damage. This Spell has 25% armor penetration. If you are not under the effects of an Enchantment, this spell causes Exhaustion.

Change:
Elite Spell. Target foe and up to 2...4...6 other foes near your target are struck for 10...82...100 lightning damage. This Spell has 25% armor penetration. If you are not under the effects of an Enchantment, this spell causes Exhaustion.

Notes:
Right now the only difference between these two skills is 20 damage which isn't much considering one is an elite. Also the small cap on the number of enemies struck is not very useful for nuking. The changes I am asking for would improve the skills nuking capability while the recharge time, cap on the number of enemies hit and conditions for avoiding exhaustion are enough to keep the skills from being over powered. These changes would resemble that of the Ranger line when comparing Volley to Barrage, but unlike the fire line would have conditions to avoid exhaustion, limit the number of foes that can be struck, and while they do have armor penetration they do not cause conditions.

Lightning Orb (15E 2C 5R)

Current:
Spell. Send out a lightning Orb that strikes target foe for 10...82...100 lightning damage and causes Cracked Armor for 5...17...20 seconds if it hits. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Change:
Spell. Send out a lightning Orb that strikes target foe and all adjacent foes for 10...82...100 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor Penetration.

Lightning Hammer (25E 2C 4R)

Current:
Spell. Target foe is struck for 10...82...100 lightning damage. Lightning Hammer has 25% armor penetration.

Change:
Spell. Target foe is struck for 10...82...100 lightning damage and causes Cracked Armor for 5...17...20 seconds if it hits. This spell has 25% armor penetration.


Notes:
I've always thought Lightning Orb should be more like what Fire Ball was and that Lighting Hammer should cause cracked armor like Lightning Orb does.

...

I haven't changed the energy cost or recharge times for these spells because I think they are where they need to be.

The changes to Lightning Orb, Arc Lightning, Chain Lightning, and Invoke Lightning would give an Air magic nuking capability that I think would be something different from the fire line and at the same time would also not end the Air line from having spike damage builds and would open up more alternatives to AoE damage for the el.

I love lightning spells and think this would give an alternative from running fire builds. The Fire line's nuking skills mostly cause burning and have no limit on the number of affected foes. Where the Air Magic lines have armor penetration but would be limited to a certain number of foes.

The number of enemies hit by Chain and Invoke lighting could be 3 and 6, but I was looking at it as a power of 2 for the steps up from Arc, Chain and Invoke when coming up with my numbers.


So what do you guys think?

Edited: just to see if changing the title from nuking to AoE would matter because it seems that most are hung up on that word.

That's because Fire is supposed to be the nuking magic and Air is supposed to be the spiking magic. We don't need two Elementalist magic lines that are trying to do the same kinds of things at once.

this.

And too much "if youre enchanted if youre enchanted" crap will lead to rend enchantment spam

Wouldn't it make more sense to rain down lightning than fire, anyway?

That ^

Fire = Nukes
Air = Spikes
Water = Snares/hexes
Earth = Defense

If Everything = Nukes, eles would be bland and have no versatality.

In agreement with the above posters. If you want to nuke, spec Fire Magic. Would you ask for more nuking options in Earth Magic too?

Well yea fire is the main nuking line, however, asking that 3 skills that already strike multiple foes be extended to striking a few more and one be changed to strike adjacent foes isn't game breaking and adds variety to nuking options. Fire and Air nuking builds would not be the same if these changes were made.

As for the if enchanted, well yes enchant stripping would occur but it already does and that is a big counter to the Air magic nuking line, where as the fire line differs from that in the respect that if you are not enchanted you can still dish it out. The Air line would be able to nuke but if your enchantments are stripped you would quickly find your self in big trouble.

Extending the number of foes that skills that already hit more than one foe wouldn’t change the spike damage offense the air magic line has, what it would do is provide nukers with an alternative to fire magic.

Air magic only needs stuff like this for pve.Then again most ele stuff needs buffing for HM...

As a side note,fire magic (ie SH before it got kanerfaga'd) was used in assisting spikes etc. more than air magic in PvP.Ironic role reversals much?

SURE and then while we are at it, lets make healing prayers deal AoE damage while healing, soul reaping have AoE spells, and tactics cause AoE damage!

WHY NOT

/unsigned.

Tbh i just bring a water imp or two, usually solves all my problems tbh.

but i also agree with the others air magic is not for nuking.

That would make tactics useful ^^

OT: I agree with hawke's comment: each element has it's own purpose
You even said it yourself:

The skills I ask to have a few more foes struck already strike multiple foes. The changes would not cause fire and Air to be doing the same thing.

Fire = Nukers

No hexes or single target damage there oh wait:

Hexes: Elemental Flame, Incendiary Bonds, Mark of Rodgort, Smoldering Embers

Single foe damage: Flare, Glowing Gaze, Immolate, Mind Blast, Mind Burn (this one is one people have been complaining about for its spike damage right?)

Air = Spikes

No multiple foe damage there oh wait:

AoE: Arc Lightning, Blinding Surge, Chin Lightning, Invoke Lightning, Lightning Touch, Teinai’s Wind, Whirlwind

Water = Snares/Hexes

No defensive skills or AoE damage there oh wait:

Defense: Armor of Frost, Armor of Mist, Frigid Armor, Mist Form, Swirling Aura, Ward Against Harm

AoE: Maelstom, Ice Spikes, Frozen Burst, Deep Freeze

Earth = Defense

No AoE or snares there oh wait:

AoE: After Shock, Churning Earth, Crystal Wave, Dragon Stomp, Earthquake, Eruption, Sand storm, Shockwave, Teinai’s Crystals, Unsteady Ground, Ward of Weakness

Snares: Earthen Shackles, Grasping Earth, Iron Mist, Ward Against Foes


....

So how is it again that each line is only for set uses?

I really should have used a different thread title because if you had read which skills I was talking about or knew how these skills already hit multiple foes you wouldn’t make silly statements like this.


These aren’t skills that don’t already doe AoE damage they are just limited to a set number of foes that they strike all I’m asking is to increase that number.

It's not. Each line is set toward a specific use.

And yet looking at each lines skills those settings for specific use blur.

Increasing the number of foes AoE skills hit is not removing the spike use of these lines nor is it changing them from what they are potential nuking skills.

The suggestions for Orb and Hammer aside all that is changing is the set number of foes that are hit.

Seriously, i don't mind people free thinking of possibly having nice AoE damaging skills in the Air Magic line... But to propose changes to the skills to make them even more buff than any of the fire spells is completely ludicrous.

Wanting skills to jump 4 and 6 times to foes "nearby"?? Do you know that's the same range as Rodgorts BUT (with your proposal) will jump 6 times (chain lightning) and deal more damage than rodgorts, not to mention the 25% armour penetration.

And so parties could potentially run a fire and air ele that will cause all sorts of chocolate rain.

shields will also become your own downfall.

EDIT: ok, Rodgorts actually does 14 more damage if both attributes were set to 12... BUT STILL: 25% penetration and a jump of 6!

If you pull a group of 8 Rodgort's will hit all 8 and set them on fire while with the buff Invoke An elite will only hit 7.

A grounp of 10-15 Rodgort's will hit all of them and set them all on fire while Invoke an Elite will still only hit 7.

Warriors should be able to heal with hammer mastery like clerics

Of course!
Katsumi didn't say they're for specific uses only, he said each line is aiming towards specfic goals. He didn't say they could only be used as such, because he would be wrong.

Air magic doesn't need extra nuke skills. It is a line not set for that purpose (which is why it's regarded as generally weak in PvE). Your suggestions won't really add much and only cause Air and Fire to overlap a little more.

I agree that the 3 target limit on Invoke and Chain is annoying though, but I dislike the way it selects targets for them too.

The only extra skill I was asking for was a change to Orb.

What would bring a huge hell yea for me is that the 3 target limit be removed completely, let the hits come where they may to as many as they can get to, but I didn't want to horribly over power it so I ask that Chain have an additional 2 foes struck and Invoke 4 (it is an Elite after all) kind of like Volley and Barrage.

I have been tinkering with the Air line and watching Invoke jump around to so many and only see 3 foes pop damage is truly disappointing. The skill hits lightning runs all over the place and only three foes take damage.

In PvE hitting 7 foes would cover most groups not all but most. I could see where this might cause troubles in PvP as spacing becomes problematic due to the nature of the skills strike. It doesn't hit every one at once it jumps from one to another via nearby distance.

signed, lets go airspike again!!!!!!!

This should have been mentioned earlier. What i was mentioning was of the concern of the PvP side of these implications. providing such heavy spikes for both fire and air eles, it could have some serious damage on the widespread use of shields for casters (providing extra armour vs physical AND a specific element).

If your suggestions are purely just for PvE, then i personally don't mind, since i don't hold that side of the game with high regard. Because high end areas are so hard with consets and perma builds.... It's either that or discord/sab way for HM.

Moar nookz phoar teh creepz! First RoJ, now Air Magic. This will just become another way of nuking that will not cause scatter.

Perhaps Air Magic was not intended on having "nuking" capabilities, rather it was designed for quick spikes. I'm pretty sure not everything dealing with an Elementalist must deal with nuking, but correct me if I'm wrong I'm known to be a bit radical.

Granted they may cause concern in PvP but the number of foes struck could be scaled according to the attribute level.

Say for Arc from 0…1…2 foes, Chain the spread goes from 2…3…4 and Invoke from 2…4…6 foes.



Nuking was a horrible choice of words for this as it isn't exactly nuking as it still has limitations on the number of foes that can be hit whereas fire doesn't.

People have focused more on the title of the thread than the suggestions made to increase the number of foes hit by three skills which already hit multiple foes.

The changes to Orb as well a hammer were made to complement these changes.

Like I have said I have been tinkering with these skills because I have grown tired of having to run the same fire builds over the past 3.5 years and would like to see these skills buffed to where they are a competitive option to the fire builds, when dishing out AoE damage.

Where fire out shines the changes I have suggested it does not require you to maintain an enchantment or face massive exhaustion, it has no limit to the number of foes that can be hit, and it causes burning which improves their damage capability. Where the Air magic skills have armor penetration they also have longer cast times, have limited numbers of foes that can be hit and rely on being enchanted to provide that damage or face being shut down from exhaustion.

This is not about trying to create easy mode it is about shaking things up and giving els more options to fire for decent AoE damage.

^this.

Air is good for PvP and PvE alike, if it was all for one purpose, we'd have no differences.

It's like making Expertise all bow attacks, making Axe Mastery work with Hammers too, making Curses use Blood Is Power, ect.

Wrong, you're still not understanding my point.

Basically, even if you scale the number of jumps, people will run (defenitely in HA) 1 primary fire ele and 1 primary air ele. my point is that you will now be introducing a new element into the battle that can provide some serious firepower.

A while ago, running 1 Fire and 1 Earth was popular due to the Earth ele being able to join the spike with Stoning and provide better defensive wards and eruption to blind against frontliners.

But that is 1 skill, which is a projectile and provides less than 100 damage on one spike that does not jump or give AoE damage.

This was seemed useful because teams would adjust their shields accordingly to what type of element or damage type the team is running. for example, if you encounter an r-spike team, you would all carry shields with extra armour vs piercing damage. The most popular damage being fire, due to lots of AoE and spike of rodgorts/mindblast, people would usually run with shields vs fire damage.

Therefore if you now add in lightning damage skills that are capable of not only spiking every 10 secs, but providing AoE damage to up to 6 people. and with a 2 second activation time, Lightning Chain is harder to interrupt than Rodgorts of any of the Fire AoE skills. Not to mention you also want to buff other skills which can also be used plus still give the Ele utility of still being able to invest into a 2nd profession.

So obviously the answer is to keep these updates PvE only. But then i don't see the point... Isn't fire good enough?

Right, cuz Lightning orb did AoE damage amirite?

Hehe, that made me laugh

One of the 4 skills I ask to change which does damage, unlike your comment below which makes it seem like I’m asking for something that deals no damage do massive AoE damage.

I personally find nothing wrong in making Elementalist universal Nukers... as like Chieftain already showed... the Elementalist already has so much mixed skill effects, that you can't say anymore, that Fire is only for this, air for that and the other Elements for somethign else specific...


In regard of Elementalists being as much as flexible as possible, it would be good if all Elements of the Class would allow the player to play all different tactics as Ele in different ways, but still very similar.

Each Element can be "Nuker Style", all Elements offer Skills, which can make AoE-Damage and all Elements should offer such skills, at least for PvE

Each Element can be used for defensive..even Fire..but sadly Fire gets way too less attention from Anet for defensive Skills like maybe "Fire Armor", "Flame Barrier", or "Heat Aura" i'd like to see as Fire Defense Spells... also Air can be used for defensive...

"Wind Armor", "Shield of Sonic Bursts ", "Lightning Teleportation" ...and so on...(all skills i'd like to see in GW XD)

Each Element can be used for Hxes a for Snares also ...

the Elementalist is the absolute Allrounder Class and so should it be used also...each Element should be able to offer very similar Builds so that the player can be with every Element Nuker, Supporter, Hex Spammer or Snarer, but each element in its different own style... so that everyone can play with his/her most beloved Element his/her most beloved Ele Build...


if all Eles regardless of their Element could play the same tactical styles, PvP would become alot more interesting and surely PvE would also make more fun, because players couldn't tell then anymore just from looks, if an Fire Ele is now Nuker, Supporter, Hexing or Snarer or maybe a mix of something from that...

Phoenix Tears agreed with OP, that confirms that his idea is horrible

request close

So in the end, any Ele just maxes Energy Storage, and one of the elemental lines. Because you would be able to Hex, Snare, Spike, Protect and Nuke with any of them, essentially making the segregation of the different elements useless...

That's the same as asking to enable the Warrior to make similar builds in the Axe, Sword and Hammer line. There is a reason the Elementalist has the power over 4 different elements, it's not just for the fancy visuals.
Of course you can't tell what an Ele's role is from the looks. You can't tell a Fire ele from the outside. You need to look at its skills. And as soon as you look at its skills, you know its role. Doesn't matter if it uses Searing Flames of Searing Frost, you'll know it's role the moment you see that skill flashing up.

Well, if I see an ele with a fire staff and a Factions fire aura, I'd guess they were a fire nuker of some sort, mabye even Mind Blast. Not sure what else they'd be.

*snerk* I see I'm not the only one with that attitude - Phoenix is too obviously a member of the make-GW-ftp-WoW club.

Although in this case... it's possibly not such a bad idea, although I wouldn't take it to this extent. Arc Lightning could afford to be made unconditional (it'd still be inferior to Lava Arrows) and Invoke Lightning could afford something more to justify its elite status over Chain Lightning, and extra hits would serve that purpose. (It's okay for an elite to do something outside an attribute line's forte - in fact, I think it was mentioned early on in GW's history that one of the possible uses for an elite was picking up a capability that wouldn't normally be present in an attribute line.)

The comment about Ice Imps is a good one (Elementalists tend to have good synergies with Asura summons in general...) but I think another part of the problem is the way attunements work - they provide a fairly strong incentive to only run a single line.

This is the best argument here. /agree.

/vote for close.

What's funny about the last balance update was, I was considering starting a thread saying ANet doesn't understand PvE.

Consider:

1. Elementalist damage is currently not viable. Any good (+ aware) Elementalist playing for damage will rely on PvE skills and Assassin's Promise, not Elementalist skills - and even then the Elementalist primary isn't too hot.
2. Air Magic was more viable than Fire Magic before the buff. In fact I'd even consider Air Magic the single most viable elemental line for H/H, with Earth more effective with teams (but then if you're in a human team, why aren't you ER Infusing?).
3. Fire Magic is currently the single least viable line, except in select areas, followed closely by Water Magic.

And yet ANet goes ahead and buffs Air Magic on the grounds that it is overshadowed by Fire?! That's just showing they don't understand Elementalists in PvE! This thread too ...

I agree with buffing Air Magic because even with Air Magic Elementalist damage simply doesn't compare. But I don't agree with the motivation. Fire and Water Magic need buffing even more, and the overarching priority isn't buffing the different lines but buffing Elementalists in general - or nerfing the competition. That's my understanding of the thread, and why even though I welcome the last buff to Chain Lightning for example, it leaves a bittersweet feeling.

Theres absolutely nothing wrong with eles just maxing energy storage and an element of choice... the same way you handle warriors...you just either max tactics or strength and 1 weapon style of choice, more attribute don't need to be raised for a warrior ...

same with ranger...you raise either only marksmanship and expertise or beast mastery and expertise or wilderness survival and expertise...only with the difference that you do this with the other classes for playing certain builds, but as said..the Elementalist is GW's universal Allrounder Class, or this should it be anyway, because as said, every element can be used for the same purpose. There's no rule, that says that fire spells can't be defensive or that you can't hex with a certain element and so on...

Sure, once a player uses a skill, you'll be eventually able to guess direct the build and the role, that the player does try to fullfill, but as an other one posted here after you..there are mostly other indicators, which will instantly reveal, what build you are, like the weapon or the as said head armor

I'd like to know from you, what you think about the game, what would all change, if players could play with their Eles all the same tactical styles with all of the 4 elements.?
Yet you argued only, that peole would start just to specialize their eles on 2 attributes...thats nothign wrong, because all people already do that to be able to play an effective ele and not a wannabe, that uses all elements at the same time, but is cause of the attribute split not very good at any element of them compared to an ele, who has just 2 maxed attributes and is specialized on 1 element.

Does it really care you, if you got now snared by an fire spell, or by an water spell, are you really one of those superficialy person, who cares of what element was used against u, when the most simple fact there is to care for in the moment is just only, that you got snared ... with which element is totally regardless.

But would be all tactical ways playable for all elements, the player would receive a much bigger variety of builds for eles and as said, players could choice then their most beloved play style with their most beloved element.

players would be then anymore forced to play a fire ele, just to be counted as nuker...not anymore air, just to be counted as spiker and so on.

I havent said, that these changes should be for both modes, but at least for PVE, there they make sense, just for PVP I'd hesitate to say, if it makes sense, because it could end up in a total unbalanced chaos, if there eles would be able to play with all elements all tactical builds.
-----------

@draxynnic:

I defend me against this "WoW-Club" stuff U've written...that may you write maybe for people, which proclaim themself as WoW-Fans and also play WoW hell alot of time and even say in forums like this here, that they find WoW better than GW...but not for people like me, who never have played a single second WoW, never have written in Forums, that they find WoW better, and never have compared WoW with GW - how when I've never played WoW...

My ideas come from total other games that inspire me, mostly offline rpgs
I personally would call myself when then a Member of "Let GW2 become a great MMORPG that kicks WoW painful into the nuts and lets Aion look very old"-Club

And you all know, that GW2 will become alot more in kind of gameplay like WoW, that it will be more of a classic MMORPG

So this point for Eles becoming able to use with all their elements all tactical styles I do hope will be made so for GW2 in the end, because for GW1, this makes all no sense anymore..GW1 is DEAD!!! since anet has announced that GW2 comes and no more real content will be made for GW1...

Well no, there isn't anything wrong with it. In fact, it's kind of expected.
However, I fail to see why turning all the elementalist lines into each other is a good thing. In fact, I see it as a bad thing.

You might as well argue for Blood Magic to be turned into a Curses look alike, or for Channeling and Communing to be the same. It doesn't make any sense and initially looks like a bloody stupid idea that doesn't improve when you look into it.

Air magic is fine as it is. I would agree however to raise the damage of certain air magic spells since they aren't very good, not as a spike neither (Enervating Charge, Lightning Strike and such)

Hmmm. I think there is something wrong... I used a pvp fire built taken from some HA in pve and I was clearing the areas even without a single pve skill. It was hard to see enemies due to amount of yellow numbers popping on the screen. I tried running various air builds and it utterly sucked even with pve skills. I guess Air is only really usable in pvp and probably will stay that way. I guess that is the point of OP to make Air more viable for pve. I guess since pvp should not be affected his suggestions should be pve only.

It isn't that I'm asking to turn lines into copies of other lines. I am asking that skills that already do AoE damage have their cap increased to hit a few more additional foes, as well as asking that one skill be change to an AoE skill and another which has a huge cost to cast have a condition added to it but remain single foe damage.

Three of the skills I asked about are already Aoe damage skills but they have had the number of foes capped, I am no asking that they be increased to do the same things as the fire magic line. I am asking that that cap be increased to hit a few more foes too make it more useful in PvE.

If the PvP crowd is afraid of this then I am fine with the changes being PvE only.

What I am asking for isn't some kind of copy of another line it is to give more options to PvE casters to do something besides run fire builds to do AoE damage. Looking at the lines there are cross overs in each one Earth and Water snare and protect, Fire does AoE as well as has a few nice spike skills, Air has spike damage and a few AoE skills which I think need buffed to be more viable in PvE.

I am not asking that the caps be removed just increased to a more useful number of foes in PvE. For Arc 3 foes taking damage seems fine for the cost and recharge, for Chain 5 foes seems fine for the cost, recharge, casting time and condition of if not enchanted you are exhausted, and for Invoke 7 foes seems reasonable as it is a Elite, for the cast time and the condition of if not enchanted you are exhausted.

Even with these changes they still are not equal to the fire line because the fire line has no limit on the number of foes that can be hit, as well as for the main nuking skills fire has no exhaustion, with the exception of Meteor Shower which many times people build around this skill to use it.

As for skill split most builds only split into three attribute lines and for Els you need one into the damage, snare or protection, one into E-storage and one into some sort of energy management which is usually Sin or Mes. If you bring a rez from the monk line then you bust up your points into 2 lines and what is left over into the rez line. When you start trying to go into 4 you really start reducing your effectiveness in all of the skill lines you are trying to use.

I am not asking that every skill in the Air line be bastardized into just another fire line. I am asking that skills that already do AoE damage be ungimped for PvE, with the exception of Orb, which I am fine with staying how it is. I am not asking for something that isn't already there, so I really don't see where some of you guys are getting this attitude that I am asking that Fire and Air be the same thing. I am not. I am just asking that skills one of which is an Elite get a buff in the number of hits they put out. Take Invoke to the practice dummies and cast it, it runs all over the place and only three take damage, how pathetic is that for an Elite.

If this would cause unbalance in PvP then make it a PvE only change because that is where I’m looking at it from.