Air Magic Nukers

Unless you and Phoenix Tears are the same person, I was not responding to you. Pay attention.

Maybe not but I have been accused of trying to make everything the same by others so I thought I should address this.

I disagree whit what Phoenix is saying as well. I am not asking for new skills so each line can do things like the other lines do I am asking to take a few skills that already exist and do AoE damage but have been limited to certain numbers of foes be buffed so they hit a few more foes, with the exception of Orb, which I have repeatedly stated isn't something that is a must. What I am asking for is that skills that hit multiple foes have their numbers increased and that one of these skills which has a req that ties it to another (Arc Lightning) attribute line (Water), have that req removed.

Who gives a fk it's PvE... right?

Air Magic is meant for single-target spiking, Fire Magic for multi. Leave it that way.

Were you in normal mode? If you were, then Fire is great, but I assume HM since so many things work in NM.

You're missing the point ...

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10381487

Air Magic is already more viable than Fire Magic in HM, except in a few select areas. PvE casters already should not be running Fire builds to do AoE damage. Air Magic could use a buff because overall the entire Elementalist profession needs buffing to be comparable at dealing damage, not because Fire Magic owns and Air Magic sucks and Air needs a buff to be comparable - that is plain confusing up and down.

Elementalists have possibly the second-best energy management in the game. Auspicious Incantation with 25-energy spells is decent, but I expect there are still more Mesmers subbing into Elementalist for GOLE than Elementalists subbing into Mesmer for energy-management. And the energy-management aspect of Assassin's Promise, while useful, isn't the reason it's used.

This is exactly the problem. Your inspirations seems to be, well, basically every cliche that exists in RPGs, but to a number of people, including myself, part of the charm of Guild Wars is that it breaks those cliches. It breaks the cliche that says you have to spend ten thousand hours to fully develop your character and collect the Infinity Plus One Sword to keep up with other players. It breaks the cliche that says players should be segregated by level and/or the quality of their equipment.

For us, the steps Guild Wars has already taken in the form of grindy titles and so on is a tragedy.

WoW may not be your actual inspiration, but when you say that "(GW2) will be more of a classic MMORPG, I read "(GW2) will be yet another classic MMORPG". Make it just like everything else and it will no longer be unique... not to mention being forced directly into the ring with the 1000-pound gorilla that is WoW... or its successor. Now, maybe if GW2 went in that direction it could beat WoW or its sequel, but the safe money is that it won't... and win or lose, I and people like me won't be onboard.

Although I don't know what we'll be playing instead. After all, their are plenty of classic MMORPGs on the market to choose from, but not so many for people for whom doing the same thing with bigger numbers doesn't provide much of a carrot for putting up with grind.

In short... you don't need to be a WoW fan, or to have even played it, to be part of the make-GW2-subscription-free-WoW club. You just need to be one of the people who wants to strip away everything that makes Guild Wars unique and replace it with the cliches of classic MMORPGs.

Actually:

Fire - Breaks enemy formations (not many monstesr will stay put inside AoEs, and even less in PvE)
Air - Nullifies (Blindness, dazing, weakness, cracked armor, knockdowns...)
Water - Snares
Earth - Protects

And ALL spike.
Air has armor penetration but that isn't all that is needed to spike, it just helps with enemies with more armor.

If using a fire staff, and if using and displaying the aura, because there are also generic staffs.

I think there is indeed something wrong when an ele could just max energy storage and one element, and is able to fulfill all roles that are now divided between the different elements. If you could do all this with only one attribute line, why would you need 3 other elements?
No, this is what OP is suggesting, not what the game is nowadays. As far as I know fire was for nuking, water for snaring and such, and Anet intended it that way, although a lot of these roles are kinda blurred, I give you that.

And as far as I know the ranger is the Jack of All Trades, yet you nicely show me a ranger does need to spec into different attributes to fulfill a certain role. Shouldn't the ranger be able to interrupt, degen, pressure, have a pet and survive using only expertise and any given other attribute?
It would be boring.
If I read you correctly, you are saying an ele that spreads it's points between more attributes and thereby tries to fulfill multiples roles, are not as strong as an ele that specializes in 1 attribute line nowadays. Which is true, and fine by me, because you spec to fulfill a certain role in your team, be it DPS, snaring...
Circling back to the identification of an ele by it's weapons and such, if you could fulfill all roles with any given element, it wouldn't matter anymore what element that ele is specced in, or what he is wearing, because every ele would be able to do everything. So there's nothing to identify about that ele anymore. If you see a fire ele nowadays, you know you are going to get hit with big damage, just like you know when you see a hammer warrior you know you are going te be knockdowned bigtime.

If an ele would be able to fulfill all roles with only fire magic, opponents wouldn't be able anymore to identify the ele by it's element, and those opponents would be at a disadvantage, because that ele can see what the hammer warrior's role is going to be.

And countering:
Are you really one of those superficially persons who cares what element you are using against a foe?

There is already enough variety in the builds of an ele. You just need to properly spec instead of putting all points in fire and expecting to fulfill every possible role there is.

Also, why would you 'love' an element? If you want to do big damage, you go fire. If you want to snare, go ice. Why would you want to use fire balls to snare someone? Because of the visual effects? I'd say one would love the element because of the kind of gameplay it enables you to, not because people think Air Magic is pretty.

EDIT: I hope I didn't start a quotewar here

Eh?
I wasn't really being serious. Although my conclusion would probably be correct, I'm not really suggesting you try it out as a method for pre-empting an ele's specced element and there isn't much point in doing so.

Rangers and the other classes are simply not able to fullfill all their roles with just one Attribute, thats all...

A Warrior can't be aggressive and defensive at the same time and wield 3 Weapons and the same time where one is a 2H Weapon ...but this point just brings me back on the hope, that Warrios will hopefully be able in GW to dual wield 1H Swords/Axes as like too 2H Swords/Axes ..sigh

A Ranger can't control simply control pets per traps lol nor doesn#t wilderness survival let you control pets

Its just just mere realism, that makes the difference between physical classes, that rely alot more on realism, than magical classes, which are pure fantasy and could hadle cause of that everything just with 1 of their attributes...

With enough fantasy you can think you out for all of the elementalist spells of each attribute, which will work either as AoE Spell, hex, Snare, Spike or Defense.

if all elementalists could fullfill all roles, it wouldn't be boring, it would be alot more interesting in PvP because thats the point then - you wouldn't be able anymore to tell from just looks, how an ele player will play his chara...

If you see an Ele in Fire Armor, you wouldn't be able to guess, if in the next few seconds will hit you a load of fire hexes, a barrage of fire spikes, some big area fire spells or somethign that tries to snare you..of if you get surprised by an fire ele, that just lets you run to him to melee range, just to counter your attacks with some fire defenses ...

this would require then from the player alot more of gamign skills to be able to react on any kind of ele at each time, regardless of the point what for a kind of ele you'll meet in battle...

its a much better prove for beign a good player, if you can show in battle, that you're prepared for any kind of elemental role a player could choose from any of the four elements, than if you beat your enemy just because you could know its play style from far away, because elements are fixed to certain play styles and nothign else

this is really boring.. if you fight ever and ever again agaisnt the same fire eles, which can be all only nukers.. if gameplay is too much fixed on classes being able to play with certain attributes only certain single roles, then this is really boring over time, but if you'll never know on what kind of ele you'll meet in your next battle, then fights will be ever interesting, because you could't tell then, if your next ele foe is maybe an Ice spiker, or an Earth Snarer or an Fire Hexer or an Air Ele with defensive Counters or if you'll meet maybe in TA on a group of 4 eles which are all four different AoE'rs what I personally would really find funny to meet on such a group in TA - Elemental Quartett XD

Yes, that was meant right so...
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What you all forget is, it is not the attributes, which would allow the player to fullfill then all the roles, it would be the chosen SKILLS in the Skill Bar...
So if you would go and play a Defense Ele Build based for the Fire Element for example, you won't be able to fullfull with that build also Hex Spam, Snarign and Attacking at the same tiem,

1. because of the Skill Bar limit of 8

2. you also need for an effective build a good Energy management as Ele, what will alone eat some some skill slots of the 8

what means if you want to play a good Fire DefenseEle then, you must use then all left free slots for fire defense spells, letting no free space open for any attack spells (aoe/spike), nor hexes or snares, if you really want to fullfill the role as defensive Fire Ele just for example:

8 Skills open, just an example build:

- Magma Skin (E) (imaginary Elite Fire Defense Spell)
- Ward against Heat (imaginary Fire Defense Spell)
- Flame Djinn's Haste (Fire Buff with some Damage Effect)
- Flame Barrier (Imaginary Fire Defense Spell)
- Fire Armor (Imaginary Fire Defense Spell)
- Glyph of lesser Energy (E-manament)
- Fire Attunement (E-management)
- Res Signet/ Hard Res Skill of other Class (Standard)

So would for example look like a defensive Fire Ele maybe, its just 5 Skills that would be left, if you care for E-Management...
If you get those 2 Skill out, cause a Necro bips you for example, this would nable the player just either to:

1. empower the defensive build with 2 more defense spells or

2. replace the 2 spaces with some damage fire spells to take on a bit a second role with your chosen element, but stil you would not be able to fullfil all roles at the same time just with 1 element ...

the absolute identical example you can make with this, if you replace now the Fire Element with any other of the other 3...

I'm not gonna keep beating the dead horse, but each line has their strengths, in ele and everything else. My main char is an ele, and I would hate like hell for something like this to happen.

I would support his suggestion if other Professions would be enabled to fulfill multiple/all possible roles with only one attribute too. The way it stands now, for me, it wouldn't be fair for the other professions if an ele would be able to fulfill every role when only speccing in one attribute.

On the other hand, maybe it is indeed more fun to not being able to know the exact same role from that ele when you encounter one, just by looking at it's equipment or the first skill they use. Makes you be on your toes, looking for other signs how this particular ele van be dangerous. But again, that ele can know all this already by looking at his foe (like the hammer-wielding warrior), so it would again make an unfair fight. Give all the other Professions to possibility to do everything too, and it's a fair deal. (although I prefer the character of specialization a lot more than being able to do anything, anytime).

In the end, is this a suggestion to enable the ele to be the perfect allrounder, by not forcing an ele to dilute his attribute points over multiple attributes, or a suggestion to enable people to roll an ele with any attribute they fancy and still be able to do everything an ele is possibly able to ?

If the first, I still am not in favor of this suggestion. Jack of all Trades, Master of None. If you want to be able to fulfill multiple roles, don't expect you will excel in all of them at the same time. Work with your team, so you can specialize in one or two roles, and exploit those to the fullest.

If the second, I am still not getting why people would want to nuke with Air, or snare with Fire. Anet could then just merge all elemental attributes, basically for an ele to have only Energy Storage and Elemental Power, with a modifier that let's you choose if you want to have Red Fire, Blue Ice, White Wind and Brown Earth visuals to accompany your spells.

What would be the point? Why not specc for Earth Magic?

Its the second point: Why?

- because of the fun

- because of the looks

- because people maybe would like more to nuke with air, than with fire, because nothing tells the player, that the player wouldn't theoretically be able to nuke not with air too.

- because as already said, anet already blurred the elements and their roles so much, that it wouldn't make any big difference anymore

- because it would allow the players to create tons of new ele builds, where surely will be then also tons of very interesting ones then under them

- because it would make the Elementalist become the true Jack of all Trades this Class should have been from the begin on imo. The Ranger is no real JoaT, only because he has 3 so very different kinds of play styles.

As you self say it, with these changes, the Ele would become the ultimate Allrounder and thats imo the purpose of this class beign an Allrounder ...of all classes I've played, the Ele is really the most easiest one to play in regard of its Gameplay (ok, monk is same as easy, but only because u never have in the game to worry to receive not an important healing in a very dangerous situation XD )
But what i want to say with that is, that a very good Allrounder Class is shown by its most easiest gameplay and that this class has the ability to play with its different features all roles that are designed for the class... from all classes in GW, the Elementalist is the only Class, that fits to the role as the perfect Allrounder, because its with enough imagination for creating skills the only Class, where you can easily create skills for all of the class' attributes which could be used for any role of the class


Fire Armor, Frost armor, Earth Armor, Air Armor < most easiest example for this...

4 different skills... all for the same purpose of being a skill for a defensive build, but all 4 skills could easily have some slightly differences:

Fire Armor:
Gives + 10-30 Armor against physical Attacks and whenever you get attacked by a Foe in melee range, the foe will start burnign for 1-2 Seconds, if the attack was fire based, the attack will get absorbed and you'll receive 0 Damage.

Earth Armor:
Gives + 15-40 Armor against physical Attacks, reduces your movement speed by 15%, but makes you also invulnerable against critical hits and earth based attacks wil lget absorbed, so that you'l receive 0 Damage from them.

Ice Armor:
Gives +10-30 Armor against physical Attacks and absorbs 1-3 Energy from foes, that attack you, while this enchant is on you. Also ice based Attacks will get absorbed so that you receive 0 Damage.

Air Armor:
Gives +10-30 Armor against physical Attacks, increases chance to evade physical ranged attacks from arrows by 33% and lets you recharge Skills 1 second faster.
Also Air based Attacks get absorbed so that you will receive only 0 Damage from them.


This were just 4 imaginary examples, but so like these examples could be made then all other spells too, so that all elements just are able to play all the roles, but just only similar..not exactly the same way ^^

All attributes in the game have a general theme. Their differences makes them interesting, and blending them would be bland and boring to me.

Note when Anet nerfed Rodgart's Invocation and let's look at the OP's skill suggestion.

Anet nerfed Rodgart's to decrease spamability of high damaging AoE skills that would result into continous AoE spiking. Now, combine all of the OP's suggested skills together. Wouldn't they all seem close, if not exactly like the way Rodgart's Invocation worked before its nerf?

Think about it...

If Anet nerfed Rodgart's due to AoE spike spamming, then what will they think about these skill suggestions?

Air Magic Nuker is an oxymoron.

sage, /notsigned, etc.

Lightning Hammer (25E 2C 4R)

Current:
Spell. Target foe is struck for 10...82...100 lightning damage. Lightning Hammer has 25% armor penetration.

Change:
Spell. Target foe is struck for 10...82...100 lightning damage and causes knockdown if it hits. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

knock down will suit it more^^

A spell that hits that hard and causes knockdown cannot possibly have a 4 second recharge, especially when you get 21e back with dual attunement.

Edit: Stoning is similar to that but requires a pre-requisite of Weakness. If there was a clause for knockdown, maybe.

I get your examples of the 4 different kinds of armors, Phoenix Tears. Same kan be done for a high damage attack skill, or a running skill. But still, I'd like my ele to need to specialize in one element to be able to play that certain role effectivily. This is just personal preference however, and the it's the way I've played Guild Wars for the past years.

However, If I remember correctly, Anet is making the skill system in GW2 a bit differently. More context dependent skills, as in, a single skill can have multiple effects in different situations. Who knows, your and OP's idea's might see the light of day in GW2

Besides the argument Air is for spikes and Fire is for nuking you could throw in a skill called Tornado that strikes multiple opponents.

1st bold: Marksmanship and expertise.... ok.... Beast Mastery and expertise.... ok...

Wilderness Survival and Expertise??? So you're saying you can't weild a bow and spread poison? I'm only allowed to trap? Am i not living up to the full potential of 12 wilderness survival for a longer duration of poison?

2nd bold: Oh there is a rule. It's called PvP, you know this rule? It's the rule that Guild Wars was implemented upon. BALANCE.

Wow, what game do you think you're playing? With enough fantasy, i can pretend i spent these last 4 years obtaining level 80 and i'll soon have enough money to purchase my epic mount.

With enough fantasy, i can pretend that Anet will never read this and destroy the balance that they try and implement. elementallist skills are a true testament to their original balancing, creating the different elements to specify into certain things.

Personally, i would not like to see a Fire ele in GvG with a bar that can snare, hex, anti melee, spike and give a speed boost on top of raining down their classical AoE. And if i do, he better be playing for me and me only.

Ok, for the last time, anyone that' don't see the defensive value of fire magic is either blind or daft.

Not many monsters and few humans will stay inside and AoE. Enemies that are not next to you can't attack you in melee. Stay inside and AoE and you'll be safe.

That rule works better in PvE, but it WORKS. The sooner you learn that, the better you'll play as a Heat elementalist in PvE.

ALL 4 elementalist lines have BOTH offensive and defensive characteristics.

I agree with that, but only because warriors are the best defensive class in the game.

I understand what you mean, but for arguments sake, can't you say that you're only using offensive skills for a defensive measure? yes you can stand in a heat, but a heat is target specific, and not around you. i know bed of coals and lava font do this but they are not exactly amazing AoE spells.

Yes i know that the attributes are quite ballanced. with Earth magic with a few spike skills but you can't deny they are defensive, with their wards, stoneflesh, that hex that does not permit criticals. Water does have spikes with Shatterstone and Vaporblade. but what else? everything else slows.
Fire, burning is good. burning and AoE can be implemented in any way you see, but they still do damage and damage is offensive. Does a ward do damage? does Mind Freeze do spike damage?

Yes please, buff invoke the way OP asked, so I can kill the whole opposing team with our team just using 3 skills in 5 seconds of battle.We didn't get enough time to play with old Invoke Spike before it got nerfed Prettty please?????????

Well that "versatility" has left Elementalists with no place in PvE HM outside of Ether renewal, which is healing+protection+energy storage. Not the elementalist attributes.

Fire is weak. Air is single target. Water has too high recharge, cost, and cast. And Earth has poor synergy in its own attribute and waaay too high recharge (Though ward against melee is good).

Blinding? Elementalists are probably better for shutting down enemy physicals than Mesmers. Admittedly, people prefer curses necroes because they can have MoP/Barbs as well, but an air or earth elementalist can be more effective at shutdown in a group that has less physicals in its makeup.

I can't say any line lacks utility even in hard mode , it all comes down to what you need.

Fire is awesome in NM , but in HM it can be support (Long ago before when Kurzick rank was low i valued a SF ele to fuel "They are on fire!" and etc. Each line has it's strenghts and weaknesses.

That's when skill enters. If you know what you do, you'll move into AoE when in trouble, and time skills so when enemies get to you, the AoE multi-hit starts.

Radiation Field does damage.
Mind Freeze can be used to spike. Enemies that do not run will eat entire multi-hit AoE skills.

How many foes do you hit on average with a fire build? You're lucky if you hit more than 2 foes. Allowing lightning skills to easily hit more than 2 and up is essentially nuking, because more often than not, you're hitting all your targets, unless of course you think you can round up players like you can mobs in PvE.

Even I'm completely wrong on that, even you have to admit that you're making Air Magic edge closer to Fire Magic in functionality. Air Magic arguably does the best damage in the game vs single targets. That in its own rite should mean it shouldn't be buffed. I can see buffing Comuning or Motivation or some unused attribute like that.. but Air Magic is king of spike. It doesn't *also* have to be area of effect damage. I would argue that it was made like that on purpose merely for the fact that you sacrifice area of effect damage to be ABLE to inflict more damage against a single target. If hitting single targets is not your playing style, don't play Air Magic. You want both damage and area of effect, and you're missing the entire point I think.

It's like as if I wanted the damage from Domination Magic line without the conditions. That is to say, I cast and I deal armor-ignoring damage. Why can't I have that? Because Domination Magic's downfall are the conditions which must first be met before you can do that kind of damage. You want to turn Elementalists into a monotonous profession which has nearly 1000 skills which all do the same thing.. inflict damage. /notsigned

In Urgoz there wer times I hit more than 12 enemies with heats. Lotsa of pwetty yello numba' alloverthescreen.

Now, seriously, It was actually HARD to see anything but yellow numbers, and I have their size half the way below the default one.

In PVE depends on how many get herded up. Which is where the balance would come from this compared to Fire magic. There are no limits on Fire magic numbers. Where as this would have a set limit just like it does now. Even in PvP the Elite skill wouldn’t be able to hit more than 7 and like you say that is if they are dumb enough to bunch up, although how these skills work is by jumping from one nearby foe to the next so spacing would be a factor, just like when avoiding fire magic. These Air skills also have longer casting times than the major Fire nuking skills which a competent Ranger or Mesmer could shut down. Like I have said if these changes make PvP unbalanced then keep them in PvE because that is where the change is directed at from my prospective.

Actually I am somewhat, just like earth and water are defense and snaring, while Air and Fire are offense and conditions. By taking 3 skills maybe 4, but like I said Orb can stay the way it is, and increasing the number of foes they strike to make them more effective in PvE as well as making an Elite more effective than a common skill, Invoke/Chain, they will be close to how fire nuking skills work but not exactly. These skills that already strike multiple foes, except they have a cap that in PvE frankly sucks.


I have to ask what are you talking about, because you are among a number of people who have jumped on this acting like I’m asking for skills that deal no damage to deal AOE damage and that is not the case. I am taking, aside from Orb, skills that already deal AOE damage and asking that the cap that was placed on them be raised to a more suitable number in PvE. There is crossover in all the lines of the Elementalist Profesion, yet when someone ask that Air be given three skills that hit multiple foes more usefulness in PvE to hit a few more foes you guys are acting like I’m trying to make every line in the profession do exactly the same things as the rest.

I am not. Far from it. I am asking to have 3 skills improved to give some kind of variety to nuking other than Fire magic. This change would not be so powerful that it would replace Fire as a nuking line it would barely be equal to it, in that the number of foes has a cap, a raised one but a cap all the same, where Fire has unlimited numbers of foes that can be hit.

Yes Air is for spike damage, however changing 3 skills to hit a few more foes doesn’t change that in any way. Hitting 3 more foes doesn’t change these Air skills into Fire magic skill copies. What it does do is improve there usefulness in play. You guys try to pigeon hole skill lines for the Elementalist when there are crossovers in each line. I can understand PvP players worrying about balance, but with the new PvP play system on the way some of the things you have pointed out as problems will be eliminated with sealed deck play. Also I am all for keeping these changes in PvE if they affect PvP play. They will in no way over power the Air line in PvE because there is a cap on the number of foes struck, requirements to increase the number of foes hit and conditions that must be met to cast without facing consequences. How exactly is that copying fire magic lines? There are no caps on the number of foes struck, there are no requirements to increase the number of foes struck, and there are no conditions that must be met to cast without facing consequences. The only comparison is they hit multiple foes and if you go by that then guess what they already do, it is just Air is capped at a ridiculously low level for PvE.

People use Mesmer for blind? How so? Outside of Fast Casting gimmicks, that is.

Also, can you explain how an ele's earth and air magic is superior to, ohh, let's say, an R/D Blindbot, which is the example I pulled out of my ass? I'd just like some insight on what these "super" supportive ele builds are.

Ineptitude + Epidemic + with optional Gylph of Swiftness or Air of Superiority if wanted

I use that in PvE. Works well in melee heavy areas along with other like skills in Illusion.

He's saying mesmers run shutdown... not blind.

And blinding surge says hi. All you need in PvE to win as an ele is attunement, aura of restoration, glyph of lesser, blinding surge, hard res, and 3 PvE skills of your choice. You can beat pretty much anything in HM with that.

As somebody who has played an Air Ele since the very first days of presearing when I first got this game, please don't screw up our role. If you want pew pew numbers you can already do that.

Indeed. Mesmers have skills that are aimed at shutting down physicals (mostly in the Illusion line - I hope I don't have to list them by name) but none are as simple and effective as a Blinding Surge elementalist. Neither, for that matter, is the R/D blindbot or any other source of blind you can name (not that I don't enjoy using EDA with my dervish, and I have an ebon bow for when I want to do that with my Ranger).

Earth isn't as good as blinding, but Eruption does has its uses as part of other forms of Earth-related disruption and defense.

PS Back on topic, on reflection I think the only effect of implementing these changes in high-end PvE would be to make the game harder - it's still armour-respecting damage, while monsters that use these skills on us become more dangerous.