Link Number of Scythe Targets to Mysticism

Yep, you all knew it was coming.

As has been discussed to death (don't worry, though, the discussion continues to be rezzed, and even at 60% DP it is still very potent in battle), dervishes suck. One of the reasons they suck is because warriors, sins, rits (and in many cases even rangers) can all use scythes better than the dervish.

So, in order to give players an actual reason to play the dervish other than the tiny handful of decent builds they have (most of which have questionable advantages over the competition), I formally propose linking the number of enemies a scythe can hit to one's rank in mysticism.

In addition to it's current effects, mysticism will do the following:

At rank 0, 1 opponent can be hit by a scythe
At rank 5, 2 opponents can be hit by a scythe
At rank 10, 3 opponents can be hit by a scythe
At rank 15, 4 opponents can be hit by a scythe

The fact that some dervishes will be able to hit 4 opponents with a scythe should not significantly affect the game's balance (after all, that means a major or superior rune), and I feel that giving dervishes a reason to be played is far more important in terms of class and game balance than whatever effects hitting 4 opponents at once might have. After all, no one had a problem with the jump from 1 to 3 that NF introduced (I think ).

This won't affect the damage output of scythe warriors and scythe sins, but it will limit them to only hitting one opponent with the scythe. I feel that this is acceptable because, to be frank, these builds are destroying all purpose in the dervish as a primary profession. They need to be nerfed in some way, and limiting the number of targets they can hit seems like a fair way to do it.

Yes, I know that enchantment juggling should be brought back, and dervishes still won't technically be doing more damage and all that. But those sorts of changes require more than just minor tweaks, and they run the risk of upsetting the game balance. They're difficult, and quite possibly would require more effort than Anet is willing to spend fixing the dervish. This change is a simple one that would do nothing except make dervishes a viable choice of primary profession. Furthermore, it does not in any way inhibit further, more elaborate changes (such as the return of enchantment juggling and all that good stuff). The idea here, is that even if it isn't the most beautiful solution, a suboptimal solution is better than no solution at all.

So, c'mon, let's throw the dervish a freaking bone already. Please? He's been waiting very patiently, you know, and I think he deserves it.

EDIT: Ok, some people are missing the point. This thread is NOT for discussing the best ways to fix the dervish. That is this thread.This thread is about whether or not you think this particular suggestion is at least better than doing nothing.

It's not fill in the blank: The options are A) Yes, I think this is better than leaving the dervish useless, even if it's not my preferred solution, B) No, I'd rather the dervish remain forever useless than for this to be implemented, even if there were no other options, or C) No, because I don't believe dervishes are underpowered (let's leave the reasons out, please; those belong in the other thread I linked to above)

What? You realise hitting things causes damage, right?

Anyway, I don't think this is an appropriate solution. Do something other with Mysticism. Wars (don't know about the others) run scythes perfectly well (not overpowered or gimmicky); there isn't a need to nerf scythes for other professions. Perhaps modify a bunch of Dervish skills to have bonus effects when Mysticism > 4 (like how certain skills fail with attributes lower than 4, except that this will give bigger bonuses to Dervs instead).

You're missing the whole point of this thread. This thread isn't about discussing the best way to fix the dervish; that's what the thread with the poll is for. This one is about whether or not you think this suggestion is at least better than the status quo. In other words, if it was either this or leaving dervishes as useless as they are currently, which would you prefer?

I'm hoping I can at least get a consensus that this is better than nothing, because the other thread showed me that everyone has vastly different ideas on the best way to fix the dervish. I'm hoping that everyone can at least agree that this is a good second or third choice.

Plus, it's easy to implement, so I think this suggestion is one of the more likely ones to work (certainly much more so than an entire rework of the mysticism line).

Nope, restricting one weapon to that class only isn't what guildwars is to me, any class can use any weapon the same way any other class can, be it not as effectively. This eliminates anyone except the dervish using the scythe.

And in my vanqing derv builds..I don't even use mysticism, so unless you couple this with some awesome effect, nty.

Son, I am disappoint.

I enjoy playing Rt/D, and sometimes taking a scythe on my warrior or my assassin.

/notsigned

And this wouldn't stop you from enjoying it, any more than you currently stop me from enjoying the use of the scythe on my dervish. Heck, you could still do more single-target damage, too; I'd only be able to hit more targets.

no, i would enhance their power of damaging opponents in a line or cone in front of them and ability to spread conditions (like blindness, weakness and burning).

...Once again:

Seriously,are you for real? Of course it will limit the fun,the whole reason you use a scythe is for it's large damage capabilities which includes hitting multiple targets, sheesh. Other classes being able to use scythese does not limit your 'fun',and fun secondary prof combo's are what GW is about so if you don't like it,go play wow.

It would drastically reduce the effectiveness of these builds.

I don't interfere with your dervish. At all. You probably can't even tell if I'm using a scythe on my assassin or not, that's how little I stop you from enjoying your dervish.

Maybe you just suck at playing dervish?

Ah, but a scythe isn't about single-target damage, it's about three-target damage.

If it doesn't limit my fun, then how would this change limit yours? It wouldn't. Your own argument defeats itself, but whatever. Clearly, no one is understanding the purpose of the thread anyway.

Oh, we understand well enough.

1 - You cannot play Dervish well.
2 - You see other classes doing scythe builds well.
3 - You want to take away their fun, out of spite.

You're like those people who're against 7-hero parties just because it's not their play style.

Nope.

Warriors are best hammer/axe/sword users.
Assassins are best dagger users
Rangers are best bow users.
Paragons are best spear users.

Dervish as scythe user is inferior to Warrior (WE + fake ias attack spam + +damage attack spam), Assassin (criticals, criticals, energy management to spam stuff), Ranger (can spam attack skills thanks to superior e-management) and even Paragon (gogo, GFTE/Scythe attack spam with tons of energy and criticals.).

He has dumb idea, but not dumb reasons. As it stands, dervishes need something else to stand apart from other classes expect hood and skirt.

I can sort of see the theory behind this idea, but as has already been said, it's not a great one.

Agreed: Dervishes need A-Net's love.

Disagreed: The way to do this is to stop them becoming a viable second profession.

If you think about it, what you're suggesting just piles on the hate even more. There are better ways of helping out our skirted friends.

/notsigned

No,it doesn't and you clearly can't grasp the dervish class or the english language,of course it would limit the 'fun' (which by now means effectivesness) if you tie it's full potential to the dervish.All you want to do is be spiteful and prevent others from using a scythe to it's full capabilities and what makes it a unique style of weapon.

This is pretty much my thought, coupled with the thought that multiple-target hits is what scythes are all about (there are scythe skills that require the chance to hit multiple targets to be worthwhile, for instance). At the harshest, I'd make scythes hit two targets for Dervish secondaries.

Another compromise position could be to tie it to Scythe Mastery, but put a breakpoint at 13.

Then you would gimp your self if you don't want to put points into Mysticism because as the attribute bonus is now it is useless for damage dealers.

/signed

Only because as I stated above this would backfire on you like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

so, because the OP can't think of a way to buff the derv, he wants to have other classes crippled instead?

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing /notsigned

No, i dont think thats the way. Any dagger user will get those 2% of double strikes per rank on that att . Dont think that fixing a weapon is the way to fix something about its main user.
/notsigned

Guild wars is about variety, not one weapon sticking to one class, this would ruin scythes.

Scythe should just not hit multiple targets at all, one of the many power creeps introduced in Nightfall that still lingers today. The weapon with the highest damage ceiling also hits multiple targets? It's a horrible concept.

But that won't change so oh well.

If you want to make Dervishes the best with scythes then attack skills with activation times need to not be usable with the scythe itself. Tack on a 50% fail to Eremite's and Mystic with four or less Mysticism. Divide the scythe's damage amongst the three targets it hits, increased by 5% for each rank in Mysticism to a maximum of 100%. At a 12 spec Mysticism the scythe will hit for 100% weapon damage on the three targets, those of the Dervish secondary hit for 33% with three targets, 50% with two. Even if the Dervish is not at that 12 Mysticism, let's say nine, then you're still hitting three targets at 78%, two at 95%.

I like my suggestion for Mysticism better than the OP. Racthoh's idea is pretty good.

/signed for Racthoh's idea - although I think it would confuse a lot of players when they read the description.

Oh, and unless we were just saying 12 Mysticism = automatic 100%, that would only be 93% damage against three targets. 14 would max it out.

I can't say I like racthoh's idea, because I never use mysticism in my scythe builds and don't plan to.

Limiting a weapons damage due to primary attribute doesn't seem right, granted the sins critical strikes and strength is pseudo, they can still hit max damage without it.

Critical Strikes is the Assassin's energy management. It's also necessary to maintain Critical Agility and Critical Defenses.

The damage reduction affect of Racthoh's is a bit too extreme. You'd have to completely rework the damage figures on everything to balance it. Most Dervishes don't hit 12 mysticism. That would basically eliminate the ability to run Earth or Wind prayers ever or else risk a substantial damage reduction. This would just make Dervishes worse. Nerfing other professions ability to use Scythes isn't enough. You also have to buff Dervishes ability to use them so they can be on par with a warrior using an axe. Otherwise, they still won't be that effective.

No, I very strongly dislike this idea, it would completely kill the point of using a scythe on any other profession, not slightly hinder it as you seem to think.

A better solution in my opinion (yes I am veering from the topic of this thread, I've already answered your question) would be to increase the area that can be hit by the dervish per rank in mysticism. Currently it is ~90* in front of the player, maybe increase the range by 6* in each direction for each rank of Mysticism, for a total of 12* per rank. This would allow for a full 270* range for Dervishes only at 15 Mysticism, the only spot they would not be able to hit would be the full 90* behind them, I dunno, seems like a good idea to me.

This. Any Dervish wanting to play around with EDA or Onslaught or a conjure or whatever would do less damage. Buff mysticism itself, or its skills, don't force me to get 12 mysticism for Heart of Fury and mediocre energy management because you're annoyed that sins make better scythe users.

I think that was kinda his point. Rather it be a little underpowered than OP from the start.

Just like the OP's idea Racthoh's is gimping the Derv by forcing it to put points into Mysticism. As the attribute line stands now it offers no incentive to use for anything other than running the Elite Forms. If this is the best you guys can come up with leave it be. You are only nerfing your selves to try to nerf others because they can do it better than you. By making these changes it forces scythe users to put points into the line or further gimp their ability to use their own weapon.

The idea of hitting addition foes over the 3 limit due to the amount of points in Mysticism is a step in the right direction, but reducing the number of foes or the damage dealt is harming the derv more than helping.

Why wouldn't you spec into mysticism? Right now the only real reason to run a dervish is to run avatars. Earth/wind prayers elites are bad, and warriors/assassins run scythe elites better than dervishes.

Also, that definitely isn't a step in the right direction. Scythes being able to hit up to 3 foes was a bad design from the start, letting dervishes hit even more would be just dumb.

Scythe attack costs are too easily fueled by other classes.

I would suggest remaking dervish akin to elementalist:

1) Raise all enery costs of attack skills to 10 or 15 points from 5 and 10 respectivelly.

2) Add "Attunement" skill: Rework Zealous Renewal: returns 50% of attack skill cost +1 energy. ~ zero duration on 0 mysticism, 10 second duration per point, 5 second recharge, 1/4 activation, 5e cost,

3) Move Attackers insight to Mysticism, it is GoLE of attack skills now.

4) Limit WE energy gain to per attack and not per hit.

Voila, noone except dervishes can fuel scythe efficiently.

Mysticism is not required per se, but 1 point will do.

To do something different? It's not like Guild Wars PvE is a super serious min/maxing affair. Plus, the forms other than Dwayna kind of suck. Melandru would be good, but you have to constantly spend 25+10 energy to maintain it, leaving little time for much else. Grenth is OK, but nothing great. Lyssa's extra energy is useless and in HM the monsters cast so fast it's hard to hit them during skill activation, and any skill that you could hit them during would be better off interrupted. Balthazar is useless because of AoHM.

And for PvP, anything other than Wounding Strike is inferior.

No, the purpose of a class is to be unique. Anet is doing it right in buffing earth/wind prayers to make dervs stronger.

Even still, you're just gimping other classes from using a scythe. What good does that do a dervish?

Three-target damage that's easier said than done. A scythe has really weird range. Like, they only hit adjacent directly in front of you.

A lot of people say to ball up enemies, but once again, easier said than done. Especially in the heat of combat.

I don't run more than 9 in mysticism unless I'm using avatars for certain areas. So I don't approve of this.

Because mysticism is near useless, along with the avatars for general PvE

I've logged over 2k hours into my derv, and I've done everything on it, and I personally find zealous vow as the best elite for DPS. I play with H/H so I don't always have an uber team clearing mobs in 15 seconds and can spam down to 0 energy then run into the next gruppe.

Yes sins/warriors are better than them, but dervishes still exist.

I don't even need to try to ball up enemies. They get in range on their own.

Hitting three targets is easy, and if you are only hitting one target I suggest putting away the sword and using an actual scythe ^_^

i can say the same thing about sins using spears and scythes and other classes using dif weapons

cause a sin can get a deepwound with vicious more often then a paragon overpowered?

/notsigned

It makes the dervish the best at something, because currently, there is no reason to use them, because anything they can bring to the table, a W/D or A/D can do better. By the way, they're also better at using earth and wind prayers than the dervish is too thanks to their vastly superior energy management. Buffing those will just leave the dervish in the same boat it's in already.

Where were all you guys during the discussion? This stuff has already been covered. The dervish sucks. It's a known fact, just like how mending sucks.