Assassin's promise.
We all love it. Most of us use it. If we were really honest with ourselves, we'd all admit that its way over-powered. Free skill recharge (for ALL skills, including itself) PLUS extra energy just for killing a target? All this on a skill that ANY profession can use effectively? Shenanigans.
So, in my opinion, just like SF, its time has come. Why? Not because it breaks the game from farming and SCs like SF, it doesn't really. Just the plain simple reason that it makes the game experience unbalanced and because it makes people think everything else sucks in comparison. Whenever you have a skill where pretty much everythign sucks by comparison, its is by definition unbalance and over-powered.
So, what are some possible nerfs? Well, you could compare it to reaper's mark, the next closest skill in terms of similar effect. Reaper's Mark uses the Necros primary attribute and doesn't recharge skills. So there's a possible option for making it more balanced. Another is to make it not recharge itself. Yet another is to reduce the duration of it to make it harder to use. Any others?
To be honest I mostly expect people to respond with "OMGNOOBGTFO" (paraphrasing of course) but perhaps the GWG community will refrain from being dumb-GO RED ENGINEs for once and realize that the game becomes more fun for all player when its well balanced. What's that you say? You doubt it? Yeah me too. Anyway, flame/discuss/QQ/piss and moan away.
The "Nerf AP!" thread
Captain Bulldozer
Chocobo1
There is so much that needs fixing in PvE, why bother with this? Sure it's pretty damn strong, but I'm not really worried about it. To me it kinda boils down like this:
Stupidly insane Tier: Shadow Form
Overpowered Tier: AP, RoJ (It's still pretty insane), Most PvE Skills, more stuff that I cbf listing
Good Tier: Spiteful Spirit, Savanah Heat, (stuff like this that isn't woamg overpowered but is still useful)
Meh Tier: Everything else.
I'm too tired to talk about it, but the Overpowered Tier would have a lot more skills if I could be bothered listing it, the Meh Tier would be filled with junk and the Good Tier would have a few staple skills. The point is, there are so few decently balanced skills that hitting one overpowered skill won't really make an impact unless they decide to do a huge change to PvE there is no point in changing these skills.
Stupidly insane Tier: Shadow Form
Overpowered Tier: AP, RoJ (It's still pretty insane), Most PvE Skills, more stuff that I cbf listing
Good Tier: Spiteful Spirit, Savanah Heat, (stuff like this that isn't woamg overpowered but is still useful)
Meh Tier: Everything else.
I'm too tired to talk about it, but the Overpowered Tier would have a lot more skills if I could be bothered listing it, the Meh Tier would be filled with junk and the Good Tier would have a few staple skills. The point is, there are so few decently balanced skills that hitting one overpowered skill won't really make an impact unless they decide to do a huge change to PvE there is no point in changing these skills.
dasmitchies
AP isn't use in speedclears and farming just as you said. So how does it unbalance the game? NO NERFbat required
branamanp
hex removal can make make your whole bar useless if it is based on AP
/notsigned
/notsigned
Captain Bulldozer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chocobo1
There is so much that needs fixing in PvE, why bother with this? Sure it's pretty damn strong, but I'm not really worried about it. To me it kinda boils down like this:
Stupidly insane Tier: Shadow Form Overpowered Tier: AP, RoJ (It's still pretty insane), Most PvE Skills, more stuff that I cbf listing Good Tier: Spiteful Spirit, Savanah Heat, (stuff like this that isn't woamg overpowered but is still useful) Meh Tier: Everything else. I'm too tired to talk about it, but the Overpowered Tier would have a lot more skills if I could be bothered listing it, the Meh Tier would be filled with junk and the Good Tier would have a few staple skills. The point is, there are so few decently balanced skills that hitting one overpowered skill won't really make an impact unless they decide to do a huge change to PvE there is no point in changing these skills. |
Gift3d
it's a terrible skill in pvp. which is, you know, what guild wars is about.
and in pve nothing's "overpowered" cause its just c-space pve skill here ridiculous monster skill there. if you dont like to pve with it dont use it. cause other people pveing with it won't affect you, directly or indirectly, whatsoever.
and in pve nothing's "overpowered" cause its just c-space pve skill here ridiculous monster skill there. if you dont like to pve with it dont use it. cause other people pveing with it won't affect you, directly or indirectly, whatsoever.
Smarty
Only if mesmers are given a serious buff (in PvE) at the same time.
Chocobo1
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer
I was hoping someone would make this point. Why not make another thread for each OP skill rather than say, "there are plenty of OP unbalanced skills so let's ignore them all." The live team has shown a few things to us players recently... one of which is that they're basically too busy to focus much on skill balance, even in PvP. Why not help em out a little by listing and discussing various OP skills/builds and ideas to fix em?
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At this point in the game, there is really no hope for PvE. The game was designed for PvP, then tried to shift to PvE and made it incredibly bad. There is issue upon issue that needs fixing, and it goes beyond our skill selection.
Schnellburg
LOL so nerf something that just about everyone uses...? Yeah...Nerf UA or WoH or Hell even Dragon Slash why your at it. These threads are getting out of hand. If you don't like it, just don't use it. Why do you wanna ruin the fun for other?
Fyi Ap is used in Speed Clears AP+MoP+Barbs=3 standard skills on a MoP for Manlyway/Physway.
Fyi Ap is used in Speed Clears AP+MoP+Barbs=3 standard skills on a MoP for Manlyway/Physway.
Chocobo1
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Schnellburg
LOL so nerf something that just about everyone uses...? Yeah...Nerf UA or WoH or Hell even Dragon Slash why your at it. These threads are getting out of hand. If you don't like it, just don't use it. Why do you wanna ruin the fun for other?
Fyi Ap is used in Speed Clears AP+MoP+Barbs=3 standard skills on a MoP for Manlyway/Physway. |
Schnellburg
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dasmitchies
AP isn't use in speedclears and farming just as you said. So how does it unbalance the game? NO NERFbat required
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I didn't say that, by my reasoning ppl complaining about stuff they either can't use, or won't use is killing this game, not overpowered skills. People are jealous that others are making more money then them, and making their E-Peen larger. You nerf SF and I'll bet money that you nerf a large populations farming area, IE FoW/UW. Ap nerf isn't needed, nor will it affect other builds at all. There is no reason for it, plain and simple.
Xx Da Best Xx
Actually Im pretty sure AP is part of the MoP build i run in FoWSCs...Yet i wouldnt call it OP. You have to time it right since its only a 10-14sec ish hex. If it were to ever change, which i dont think it should...It should recharge Assassin skills rather than all skills, or just reduce the duration of the hex...
Still
/notsign
Still
/notsign
drunk n angry
/notsigned what does it matter? not used to farm with, this dont make your precious ectos drop in price.... its like saying "OMFG>>> WE NEED TO NERF TROLL UNGUENT CAUSE IT CAN GIVE BETTER HEALING THEN HEALING BREEZE> WTF?!!!!" come on man if you are going to suggest a nerf make it one that is an actual problem, not a skill that you are just throwing out your butt into the nerf bat
majikmajikmajik
Quote:
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Originally Posted by drunk n angry
/notsigned what does it matter? not used to farm with, this dont make your precious ectos drop in price.... its like saying "OMFG>>> WE NEED TO NERF TROLL UNGUENT CAUSE IT CAN GIVE BETTER HEALING THEN HEALING BREEZE> WTF?!!!!" come on man if you are going to suggest a nerf make it one that is an actual problem, not a skill that you are just throwing out your butt into the nerf bat
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Jeydra
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chocobo1
There is so much that needs fixing in PvE, why bother with this? Sure it's pretty damn strong, but I'm not really worried about it.
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Shayne Hawke
AP is good, but it's nowhere near imbalanced.
KZaske
I agree with part of what the OP is saying, it is a slightly over powered skill. Does it deserve a nerf bat, I don't think so.
Chocobo1 is right about the relative power of various skills
"Stupidly insane Tier: Shadow Form
Overpowered Tier: AP, RoJ (It's still pretty insane), Most PvE Skills, more stuff that I cbf listing
Good Tier: Spiteful Spirit, Savanah Heat, (stuff like this that isn't woamg overpowered but is still useful)
Meh Tier: Everything else."
Not much else needs to be said. /Not signed.
Chocobo1 is right about the relative power of various skills
"Stupidly insane Tier: Shadow Form
Overpowered Tier: AP, RoJ (It's still pretty insane), Most PvE Skills, more stuff that I cbf listing
Good Tier: Spiteful Spirit, Savanah Heat, (stuff like this that isn't woamg overpowered but is still useful)
Meh Tier: Everything else."
Not much else needs to be said. /Not signed.
Axel Zinfandel
AP is not overpowered because it is used in a lot of builds with skills that have long recharge times, so that you can spam skills more often. It also has a large recharge timer itself.
Many builds are absolutely worthless if AP is cast at the wrong time and runs out, or is removed. You will them be sitting there useless for sometimes what is the remainder of the fight.
The build that is most overpowered with this consists of the PvE skills "Finish Him!", Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support, and usually "You move like a Dwarf!".
The only skill mentioned there that I believe should get a nerf is Assassin Support because there should have been allowed only one assassin in play at a time from the very beginning, like Asuran summons.
The problem is not always where you think it is :P
Many builds are absolutely worthless if AP is cast at the wrong time and runs out, or is removed. You will them be sitting there useless for sometimes what is the remainder of the fight.
The build that is most overpowered with this consists of the PvE skills "Finish Him!", Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support, and usually "You move like a Dwarf!".
The only skill mentioned there that I believe should get a nerf is Assassin Support because there should have been allowed only one assassin in play at a time from the very beginning, like Asuran summons.
The problem is not always where you think it is :P
Skyy High
The problem is AP allows PvE skills, which are already absurdly OP-ed, to be spammed even more. It basically lets all of your play revolve around casting 3 PvE skills of choice, over and over again, with instant recharges, and it even throws in a Soul Reaping effect (or just doubles your SR, if you're a necro already). People are talking about how it's useless with hex removal or if your target doesn't die, but a) it's PvE; you KNOW if there is going to be hex removal, and tricking the AI into wasting it isn't hard, and b) if you're not killing one monster every 10 seconds in PvE, you're just horrible, and certainly not in a position to talk about how powerful AP is/can be.
Marty Silverblade
As previously mentioned, AP isn't the problem. It's the stupidly overpowered PvE skills that it fuels that is the problem. Making it not work with PvE skills is really all you need to do with it.
Just.nl
I dont see a problem in AP. If you find AP a problem, there are way more skills that are a problem. You can spam Dragon Slash also, Shadow Form = Needed in every SC.
The could better nerf Shadow Form in place of AP. I dont see a problem in AP. I use it sometimes on my mesmer. And it is usefull..
/Notsigned
The could better nerf Shadow Form in place of AP. I dont see a problem in AP. I use it sometimes on my mesmer. And it is usefull..
/Notsigned
Lakdav
Until today i saw AP overpowered, but this thread pointed out that it is indeed the PvE skills that are too powerful. I rarely use them, and if i do, use only the skills that suits my class (Mesmer-asura).
In a sense the AP-YMLAD!-FH!-assa support combo is like ursan was. Every1 can pick it with enough title-grind and an assa secondary, and it needs little skill in timing.
It is NOT that bad, but it looks like its little brother.
So far i only see it in forums as a must-have/try playstyle, haven't see it in pugs as a must-have yet(not like SF), so its not that much of a concern. Annoying when you get a (pick class here) only to find out he is not using 2 skills from his primary, but as long as it is not forced on pugs, i'm not complaining.
In a sense the AP-YMLAD!-FH!-assa support combo is like ursan was. Every1 can pick it with enough title-grind and an assa secondary, and it needs little skill in timing.
It is NOT that bad, but it looks like its little brother.
So far i only see it in forums as a must-have/try playstyle, haven't see it in pugs as a must-have yet(not like SF), so its not that much of a concern. Annoying when you get a (pick class here) only to find out he is not using 2 skills from his primary, but as long as it is not forced on pugs, i'm not complaining.
mathiastemplar
doesn't need a fix.
sick of "balance this" threads lol...
sick of "balance this" threads lol...
IronSheik
Nerf Finish Him, Ranged Instant Death at 50% =Baed, even for PvE.
turbo234
meh in conjunction with discord and ymlad its pretty powerful but even if this was nerfed there are plenty of other things to take its place.
at best i would say make a pve split with 10 second recharge without it recharging itself.
it's an idea, but i don't see this ever happening as i'm sure AP is the least of anet's worries right now.
at best i would say make a pve split with 10 second recharge without it recharging itself.
it's an idea, but i don't see this ever happening as i'm sure AP is the least of anet's worries right now.
BlackSephir
I like how AP is too strong now, after retarded pve skills have been introduced.
Hey, that got me thinking, maybe it's the pve skills that should be nerfed?
Hey, that got me thinking, maybe it's the pve skills that should be nerfed?
Tenebrae
Why ppl try to nerf an entire skill when they just wanna nerf some build/team config ?. If you really wanna nerf all uses of skill then no , notsigned , is not op. If you wanna nerf an specific use then make a change like for example it gives energy only for each skill recharge ( 0....2 ....3 ) or something like that .
MagmaRed
AP is not a problem. Yes, it allows for some powerful builds to exist, but none of them are imbalanced (in my opinion). And hex removal will ruin it instantly. Try using it in Factions when there are Expel Hexes Mesmers around, or in Eye of the North where there are Monks with Divert Hexes. And unless you supply a lot of attribute points to Deadly Arts, you have to make sure the target dies fast. Timing is key, but so is watching for hex removal.
If you want to 'fix' a skill, pick one that is imbalanced.
If you want to 'fix' a skill, pick one that is imbalanced.
draxynnic
As has already been said:
1) SF is a much bigger problem.
2) It's not AP that's the problem so much as the skills used with it (mainly PvE skills, but part of its prevalence comes because it also supercharges Mark of Pain and, to a lesser extent, earth nukers).
3) If AP gets nerfed, it'd better be preceded by a few good buffs for Mesmers.
1) SF is a much bigger problem.
2) It's not AP that's the problem so much as the skills used with it (mainly PvE skills, but part of its prevalence comes because it also supercharges Mark of Pain and, to a lesser extent, earth nukers).
3) If AP gets nerfed, it'd better be preceded by a few good buffs for Mesmers.
FireWhale
AP is a problem because pretty much any prof can run it and wreck with it. It's like, as someone said, Ursan's little sibling.
Anon-e-mouse
Please stop trying to dictate to OTHER players how they should play the game, and leave it upto Anet. QQing about every fecking skill in the game YOU percieve as OP'd is not helpful, constructive or needed. Anet knows which skills are being abused and will act if they need to. Until they do that please STFU.
/notsigned in any way shape or form.
/notsigned in any way shape or form.
Targren
To paraphrase...
"The nerf bat is the last resort of the intellectually lacking"
/notsigned
"The nerf bat is the last resort of the intellectually lacking"
/notsigned
Shasgaliel
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse
Please stop trying to dictate to OTHER players how they should play the game, and leave it upto Anet. QQing about every fecking skill in the game YOU percieve as OP'd is not helpful, constructive or needed. Anet knows which skills are being abused and will act if they need to. Until they do that please STFU.
/notsigned in any way shape or form. |
I do not use AP on any of my characters and heroes. I do not mind it being used by anyone else. /notsigned
Captain Bulldozer
The "logic" being thrown around in this thread is astounding. I know thinking is hard... but for many of you it seems like the equivalent of a quadriplegic trying to light a cigarette.
1) There are more OP skills so nerf them first: How about nerf them all instead of taking ages to get around to them and causing an imbalanced game experience for literally years at a time?
2) AP is only OP because it allows the use of other OP skills more often: Well sort of. AP is OP because of that AND because it makes the recharge of every skill on your bar effectively 10 secs or less, while ALSO giving you energy to use them at a minimal cost with virtually no downside. Even without using it with PvE only skills, there are plenty of powerful skills that are only balanced by a long recharge, which AP effectively ignores, destroying the balance of other skills.
3) AP has a counter in Hex-removal so its not OP: SF has counters too, they're easy enough to get around. Hex removal isn't all that prevalent in many places, and a halfway decent player can use a cover hex or 2, especially with a decent investment in deadly arts.
4) By asking for a nerf you're dictating to others how the game should be played: No. What a worthless argument... its been used to defend Ursan, SF. CoP and virtually everything else that deserved a nerf. Its not logic, more than it is opinion, and no one with half a brain finds it convincing. Striving for balance is part of a drive to make a great game more fun by making people actually play it the way it was intended, through balanced skillful play.
1) There are more OP skills so nerf them first: How about nerf them all instead of taking ages to get around to them and causing an imbalanced game experience for literally years at a time?
2) AP is only OP because it allows the use of other OP skills more often: Well sort of. AP is OP because of that AND because it makes the recharge of every skill on your bar effectively 10 secs or less, while ALSO giving you energy to use them at a minimal cost with virtually no downside. Even without using it with PvE only skills, there are plenty of powerful skills that are only balanced by a long recharge, which AP effectively ignores, destroying the balance of other skills.
3) AP has a counter in Hex-removal so its not OP: SF has counters too, they're easy enough to get around. Hex removal isn't all that prevalent in many places, and a halfway decent player can use a cover hex or 2, especially with a decent investment in deadly arts.
4) By asking for a nerf you're dictating to others how the game should be played: No. What a worthless argument... its been used to defend Ursan, SF. CoP and virtually everything else that deserved a nerf. Its not logic, more than it is opinion, and no one with half a brain finds it convincing. Striving for balance is part of a drive to make a great game more fun by making people actually play it the way it was intended, through balanced skillful play.
Anon-e-mouse
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer
The "logic" being thrown around in this thread is astounding. I know thinking is hard... but for many of you it seems like the equivalent of a quadriplegic trying to lite a cigarette.
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If I wanted to kill raptors from now until GW 3 came out that's entirely upto me if I wanted to do that.
Asking Anet to nerf raptors because they're to easy to kill, *IS* trying to dictate to other players how and what they should be doing in the game. No sugar coating, you are DIRECTLY trying to get the way they play the game changed because YOU percieve it to be a problem.
Leave it to Anet to decide what they think is a problem.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer
4) By asking for a nerf you're dictating to others how the game should be played: No.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer
What a worthless argument... its been used to defend Ursan, SF. CoP and virtually everything else that deserved a nerf.
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And for the record, I don't currently use AP, nor have I ever used AP in the past. I'm just fed up of every fecker under the sun telling me how I should or shouldn't be playing GW's. I play GW's my own way tyvm, and you should be playing your own way. Not trying to change what other people are doing.
Tenebrae
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse
It's not your job to decide what needs a nerf and what doesn't, that's Anet's job. Please leave it to Anet, they'll act if they perceive it to be a problem.
And for the record, I don't currently use AP, nor have I ever used AP in the past. I'm just fed up of every fecker under the sun telling me how I should or shouldn't be playing GW's. I play GW's my own way tyvm, and you should be playing your own way. Not trying to change what other people are doing. |
FoxBat
Make it recharge assassin skills only, very simple.
That limits it to the stupid but fun spike-chain builds in PvE.
That limits it to the stupid but fun spike-chain builds in PvE.
The Drunkard
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade
As previously mentioned, AP isn't the problem. It's the stupidly overpowered PvE skills that it fuels that is the problem. Making it not work with PvE skills is really all you need to do with it.
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Even if AP was nerfed, people can still use MoR(mesmers) or air of superiority.
/signed-but-doubt-it-would happen
Chocobo1
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer
The "logic" being thrown around in this thread is astounding. I know thinking is hard... but for many of you it seems like the equivalent of a quadriplegic trying to light a cigarette.
2) AP is only OP because it allows the use of other OP skills more often: Well sort of. AP is OP because of that AND because it makes the recharge of every skill on your bar effectively 10 secs or less, while ALSO giving you energy to use them at a minimal cost with virtually no downside. Even without using it with PvE only skills, there are plenty of powerful skills that are only balanced by a long recharge, which AP effectively ignores, destroying the balance of other skills. 3) AP has a counter in Hex-removal so its not OP: SF has counters too, they're easy enough to get around. Hex removal isn't all that prevalent in many places, and a halfway decent player can use a cover hex or 2, especially with a decent investment in deadly arts. |
Did you really compare SF to AP? Hex Removal is FAR more common than enchant removal that can get through SF. Unless your farming the early parts of the game, you will run into hex removal. And AI is incredibly fast to react to any hexes. I think you said at one point that you can bring a junk hex to make them waste there hex removal. The problem is, the group will more than likely have 3-4 sources of Hex Removal, and you are now wasting a skill slot for a hex you hope they remove. In general, if they have hex removal you have to put AP on them the second before they die (Kind of a pain considering in PvE stuff just explodes) or hope they don't remove it.
kazjun
/notsigned
Don't really see a problem with this. Did the kournans team up with the margos and raptors to form a union to complain about being killed in pve? I may have seen people being turned away for not having ursan (though to be fair they were going ursanway so trying to join without ursan was wtf?) but I've never seen anyone say AP only. Or even request you bring AP. Ever.
Most of the time its just used for discord priming with H/H anyways, and frankly thats just to make things a bit neater. A well set up H/H discord team should roll pve while you go afk and chat with guildies anyway, so AP is hardly essential. Sure, its amusing the first time or two to try and see how many EV sins you can have going at once but frankly, its not all that. My necro can't even be bothered bringing it and I usually run 5 necros in the party (me, 3x N/ heroes, eve, two hench monks and a mes hench). As for being OPed, going spirit spam is far more OPed and easy to run.
Don't really see a problem with this. Did the kournans team up with the margos and raptors to form a union to complain about being killed in pve? I may have seen people being turned away for not having ursan (though to be fair they were going ursanway so trying to join without ursan was wtf?) but I've never seen anyone say AP only. Or even request you bring AP. Ever.
Most of the time its just used for discord priming with H/H anyways, and frankly thats just to make things a bit neater. A well set up H/H discord team should roll pve while you go afk and chat with guildies anyway, so AP is hardly essential. Sure, its amusing the first time or two to try and see how many EV sins you can have going at once but frankly, its not all that. My necro can't even be bothered bringing it and I usually run 5 necros in the party (me, 3x N/ heroes, eve, two hench monks and a mes hench). As for being OPed, going spirit spam is far more OPed and easy to run.