Enchantment Spam

Hasn't been a new dervish thread in a few days, so...

Ok, here's my attempt at bringing back enchantment spam. It's a tall order (since the problem is so complex), so naturally it's a long suggestion involving many changes.

First off, mysticism:

For each rank of mysticism, enchantments you cast cost 6% less energy.

Similar to expertise, but stronger since it only affects enchantments. Note that ideally, a dervish is supposed to be a melee caster, so they'll be splittng attribute points between scythe mastery, mysticism, and one other attribute. And even so, dervishes trying to make use of this will not be swimming in energy (mainly due to the cost of enchantment removal skills).

Now, for PBAoEs to be considered viable, there has to be a reason to use them instead of the alternatives. The standard against which melee AoE can be judged is MSDB (which is capable of 40 armor-ignoring AoE dps). Since MSDB's primary target damage is even greater than it's AoE damage, PBAoEs have to be at least slightly more powerful against AoE targets or else there's simply no point in using them.

Heart of Holy Flame
Grenth's Fingers
Staggering Force
Dust Cloak
Grenth's Aura
Each of these skills will be changed as such: 10 energy cost, 1/2 sec activation, 10 sec recharge, utility effects (blindness, damage conversion, etc) will occur on activation, damage from the AoE will occur on end.

Making the damage occur at the end will encourage stripping. Quicker activation will increase dps.

Zealous Renewal and Balthazar's Rage
Damage will be dealt on ending, and you gain health/energy immediately on hit (rather than all at once when the enchantment ends)

There are caps on the effective energy or health you can gain from these two enchantments (your max energy and health, respectively), limiting their usefulness. Furthermore, they don't give you the energy or health when you need it. This changes that.

Mirage Cloak
recharge becomes 2 sec, energy cost becomes 10, activation time becomes 1/2 sec

Signet of Pious Light and Signet of Pious Restraint
Enchantment Removal effect changed to decrease recharge time by half (instead of instantly recharging skill)

Eremite's Zeal
1/2 sec activation, 6 sec recharge

Nerfing of these three enchantment removal skills may seem counterproductive, but if PBAoE is to be the dervish's specialty, and there are great enchantment stripping skills that don't involve the scythe, then dervishes will simply drop the scythe and bring a staff, becoming pure casters instead of melee casters.

Mystic Sandstorm
Now only removes 1 enchantment, and deals 30...106 earth damage to all nearby foes if one is removed.

Extend Enchantments
Now only removes 1 enchantment on end.

These would be changed because there could be potential balance issues when deep self-enchantment-stripping is combined with the new PBAoEs that all deal damage on end (huge potential spikes possible there).

Contemplation of Purity, Release Enchantments, and Ether Prodigy
Now only removes non-dervish enchantments

"WTF?! These aren't even Dervish skills!"

No, they're not, but currently, they can be used for deep self-enchantment stripping, which under my suggestion could be a problem for the same reasons as Mystic Sandstorm and Extend Enchantments. So, changing them so they don't strip dervish enchantments should fix that. Players using those skills the way Anet intended would notice no change. And in fact, this change could even open new doors build-wise for Monks and Elementalists (since the earth prayers line has so many defensive enchantments, you would now be able to use those enchantment removers without being forced to sacrifice defensive enchantments).

Pious Assault
5 energy, 1/2 activation, 12 recharge
Scythe Attack. Deals +1...26 damage. Removes 1 enchantment. Removal effect: instant recharge

Irresistible Sweep
5 energy, 1/2 activation, 3 recharge
Scythe Attack. Removes 1 enchantment. Removal effect: all adjacent enemies take 15...51 holy damage.

Twin Moon Sweep
1/2 activation, 3 recharge

Lyssa's Assault
5 energy, 1/2 activation, 6 recharge
Scythe Attack. Removes 1 enchantment. Removal effect: gain 4...10 energy.

The faster your enchantment removal skills are, the higher your dps, so each of these get 1/2 sec activations. Each one has certain advantages over the others, and PA can be used while the more powerful ones recharge.

Pious Renewal
Energy gain increased to 0...4

Because the builds that would result from this will need a lot of energy management

Ok, so what would all this do?

Well, most of the PBAoEs will deal about 60 damage (which in HM would be reduced to around 30) and have 1/2 sec activation. A dervish with 12 scythe mastery (I'm assuming a spread of 10+1+1 Scythe, 10+1 Earth or Wind, and 11+1 Mysticism) and AoHM will do 36.73 damage per hit against a 100 AL opponent.

So, with a 1/2 sec activation PBAoE and a 2 sec enchantment removal scythe attack, the dervish would have about 66 dps against the 3 opponents in scythe reach and 30 dps against other targets. In some cases, this would beat MSDB, but not in others (depending on how many opponents there were and how many were in scythe reach). However, there would also be the occasional Holy AoE mixed in (such as from Heart of Holy Flame or Irrestible Sweep) that would add some more damage. This, plus the various utilities of the PBAoE enchantments would make the dervish very desirable as a melee AoE user.

The main weakness that would arise from all this would inevitably be energy. Even with very high mysticism, the sheer speed at which PBAoEs (or, more importantly, the enchantment removal skills, which would end up being the majority of the energy sink) are being spammed could quickly drain a dervish's energy in only a few seconds. Therefore, energy management such as Attacker's Insight, Zealous Renewal (which would now be a decent skill), Lyssa's Assault, or Pious Renewal would be necessary. Plus, since most of the PBAoEs would still have long recharges (Mirage Cloak being the exception, but even it would have a 2 sec downtime), it would be necessary to bring multiple PBAoEs. In other words, like spirit spam, it would take a lot of skill slots to really take advantage of all this.

So, that's it. Feel free to suggest improvements, point out flaws, or just tell me how the whole idea sucks and I should be burned at the stake.

Mysticism is already a redoncilous attribute. No need to buff it...

...



Please do your research. Mysticism is widely known to be one of the worst primary attributes in the game. Critical strikes not only surpasses mysticism in terms of energy management, but also offers a significant combat boost at the same time.

D/N is already a good Orders caster, now you want to make them better. Plus, you'll make D/Mo Protectors quite good with skills like Protective Spirit costing much less and spamming skills like Reversal of Damage simple enough a monky with no hands could do it.

You want to 'fix' Mysticism, but in so doing, you require essentially all other Dervish enchantments to be changed, and any non Dervish skills dealing with enchantments to be looked at closely.

No thanks.

Well, actually, the purpose is to bring back enchantment spam in the form of PBAoEs. The mysticism change is incidental. That said, you may have a point about the D/Mo Protectors and such.

Ok, then, I guess instead of reducing enchantment costs, mysticism would just give back 1 energy per 2 ranks of mysticism on enchantment endings. That would have the same effect for 10 energy enchantments, but only for ones on the dervish themself.

Enchantments that do damage (like you are referring to with the PBAoE) are balanced in their energy cost and their recharge times. To 'spam' them, they would need to have shorter recharges. Unless you want to run AP with them, but that eats up your secondary and elite, so I doubt you'd want that.

I just don't see a major problem with enchantment juggling. Very few enchantments need to be reapplied quickly, and very few builds for a Dervish should be based on nothing but enchantments. Taking 2-4 scythe attacks, 1-2 utility skills, and 1-2 enchantment buffs along with a rez and/or self-heal should be the goal. Anything else isn't playing a melee fighter, its playing a caster in melee range. If that is what you want to do, I don't know that Dervish is the best option.... but that is a different discussion.

The skill balance is a finely tuned instrument making small and subtle changes where needed and nowhere else. What you're proposing to do is to throw an elephant and a 747 on one side of the scale. /notsigned

/notsigned

Quit bitching, your class does NOT need a buff. In the time you've spent making all these whiny threads, you could have learned to play.

Mesmers need their entire skillset reworked, Ritualists need most of their skills looked at and SP adjusted. Dervishes are fine.

Why don't you try contributing to the discussion like the other posters instead of complaining every time I try to suggest a way to give this class a legitimate reason to be used? Seriously, no one's forcing you to read these threads. The irony is that you accuse me of "bitching" about the class, yet all I've done lately is make suggestions, and now you come in and "bitch" about it without offering any real insight or input.

Also, what's wrong with rits? They're a fun class to play, SP is fine, and they certainly have a lot more useful build combinations than the dervish. Paragons would have been a better example.

I had a long post detailing the history of the dervish, how this idea is just begging for a repeat of nightfall beta, and how no one really cares about anyone's skill updates other than the official ones. But instead you are going to answer your own question.

What's wrong with dervishes? They're a fun class to play, mysticism is fine, and they certainly have a lot more useful build combinations than the ritualist. Mesmer would be a better class to buff.

If you didn't already know, stance rangers were the reason why many of the scythe attacks were toned down. What you're proposing is to bring them back with a even faster spike than before.

Although I do like the sig nerf to help stop the stupid d/mo prots, derv enchants are about condition spamming and not damage dealing.

/notsigned

See, here's the problem: the vast majority of conditions out there that dervishes deal are degen, which is nothing more than damage over time. And it's crappy damage.

So, what conditions are there that would actually be meaningful for a dervish to inflict? Ok, there's cracked armor, crippling, weakness (they already have that, and guess what? There's little point in using it when there's skills like SY! around), blindness (again, already have it, still not worth it), and daze (if dervishes started doing that they'd impinge on the ranger's territory). So, are you telling me dervishes should be cracked armor and cripple spammers?

You can get just as much fun out of a scythe warrior or scythe sin as a derv. More, actually, since they have far more build options.

From what I've heard, dervishes were definitely overpowered in the beta. However, the game has changed since then. There's been a lot of power creep. That's why these changes seem so powerful; that's what it takes to bring dervishes back into balance (relative to the other professions in PvE, that is).

Ok, either you don't know much about the ritualist, or your knowledge of dervishes is lacking. The mysticism comment (as well as the fact that I know you like rits) indicates that it must be the latter. Mysticism is a terrible primary attribute. Critical strikes gives better energy management and a combat boost at the same time. And ritualists have far more good build combos than the dervish. Ritualists have offensive spirits, utility/defense spirits, Feast of Souls, spirit walls, SoS, and Splinter Weapon, just to name a few. All of which it does better than anyone else. Dervishes have...Two avatars that are useful in a couple of situations? Other than that, they've got practically nothing going for them.

"Oh, look at me, I can do a decent amount of damage with a scythe!"

Yeah, well a necromancer can do a decent amount of damage with a bow if he wants. It doesn't mean he's "good" at it. Nor does it mean that such a build is worth bringing along, because guess what? Mr ranger does it far better. This is the boat the dervish is in right now.

Mesmers certainly need love too, but at least they have CoP, fast casting nukes, and armor-ignoring damage via hexes and such (monsters are too dumb to stop casting through backfire, for example). That's more than the dervish has going for it.

Dervishes are fine, you on the other need to learn how to play a dervish.

And how, pray tell, is the dervish supposed to be played?

Damage? Outclassed by warriors and assassins.

Survivability? See above.

Attempting to abuse the mostly useless enchantments they have now? See above.

I mean, I can understand if you don't like this suggestion, but come on now. Let's be realistic here. Just about all of the dervish's skills can be used better by other professions, and due to the class's hybrid nature there isn't much in the way of synergy with secondary professions.

Huh? There are only 4 conditions that provide degen. Bleeding, Poison, Disease, and Burning. Dervish can only supply 2 of those. Cripple, Weakness, Blind, Daze, Cracked Armor, and Deep Wound fill in the rest of the conditions availble. Other than the 2 I already mentioned, Dervish can supply all conditions but Cracked Armor and Daze. But I still don't see any skills that SHOULD be spammed that are enchantments for a Dervish. Whether it is to supply a condition, or deal damage, there just aren't many/any reasons to spam enchantments. The current set-up allows enchantments to be removed with several skills, so if you want to remove/reapply an enchantment, you can.

I just don't understand what the problem you have with it is.

As far as your comment on synergy with secondaries, I'm not sure you know HOW to play Dervish now. There are a LOT of good synergies available for a Dervish. Warrior has some nice melee attacks that fit in nicely with a Scythe. Ranger has some spirits and preparations that can fit nicely with a Dervish. Ritualist has weapon spells that fit well with a Scythe. Paragon has some shouts that can boost your Scythe damage. Elementalist has some enchantments to provide defense, speed, or another source of damage. And I'm just tipping the iceberg on possibilities with secondaries. I could go into things like a D/N running Orders, but that isn't 'how a Dervish is supposed to be played'.

Dervishes are not fine. Why in hell would you play a dervish over a Sin or a Warrior? Those of you who say "you need to learn how to play a dervish", Well, you have obviously never tried a Critscythe or a WE scythe, and should therefore learn to play Guild Wars. Also, try casting your 1 second enchantments next to a kiting monk in PvP, and see how that turns out.

The fact is, there is absolutely no reason to use Mysticism besides the avatars, which happen to suck. It gives shitty energy management because nobody actually takes advantage of enchantment spamming, which also happens to suck. Typed damage (earth and cold specifically) also happens to suck in HM.

Weakness and Blindness are meaningless though when there's SY! around. Deep Wound also ends up translating to damage. But yes, I agree that there isn't a reason to spam any of those conditions with enchantments.

There's no point in a dervish taking stuff from a warrior or assassin, because the W/D and A/D do it better.

Most of the support stuff is better done by, well, a support class.

Orders dervishes are an exception.

One more interesting thing to note: According to the new Kill Ten Rats interview, dervishes are indeed meant for melee AoE. Yet, they are subpar at it. This would fix that. Just one more thing to consider.

I think that's meant to be accomplished by the scythe being able to hit multiple opponents. I wouldn't read anything else into that interview other than that.

Outside of the scythe hitting multiple targets, the Dervish is a melee AoE character. How many of their enchantments provide AoE damage/conditions? Rough count is somewhere between 15 and 20. What I don't see a need for, however, is SPAMMING those enchantments. They do their job, and spamming them doesn't do anything outside of drain energy or create an overpowered build.

What enchantments do you think need to be spammed? Why do you think they need to be spammed?

This suggestion essentially developed from the assumptions that A) dervishes are supposed to be melee AoE and B) are supposed to do so by spamming enchantments.

Currently, dervishes are subpar scythe users, and they are subpar enchantment spammers (and the enchantments themselves suck). This was my attempt at remedying that. Basically, I was trying to give dervishes back what they were originally intended to do.

To be fair, the interview does indicate that Anet has no clue what it's professions are actually good at.

I don't think you have much of a problem with the Dervish class.... maybe a small one. But you really have a problem with Warrior and Assassin being able to use the Scythe well. Warrior won't be able to use many of the enchantments due to energy issues, and the Assassin relys on high Critical Strikes and Scythe Mastery both to do damage. Dervish can split attributes easier than Warrior and Assassin and still use the scythe well, and also use their enchantments.

I admit that the Dervish has some concerns, but I don't think it has to do with their ability to use enchantments. And I don't think the MAJOR concern is a problem with the Dervish, but with an overpowered option from other classes. Ranger already got hurt some with the last skill change, but not completely. Perhaps more changes like this can help do what you want.

My problem is that there's basically no reason to play a dervish. I don't really care how that gets fixed, so long as it does (well, without making them overpowered, at least).

Here is your reason:

Is this your first MMO? Did you ever play Everquest? A 40 man raid included one and only one rogue (sometimes two in case the first one DC'd or had to leave). They were included just for traps, because traps were an incredibly fun idea that greatly improved how much players enjoyed the game and rogues were the only class that could deal with traps. Everything else a rogue did, could be done better, more efficiently, and safer than a rogue.

This is the kind of role that emerges when a particular class is forced into the game. Is this what you want from parties: "Just bring [insert necessary skill] and don't suck." Do you want to be the ranger with winter or the 1 hp BiP necro, because those are the niche roles that emerge when trying to force a class into a necessary role.

It's better than nothing.

That's a better situation than the current dervish is in anyway. At least the rogue had a niche use. Compared to the grand total of 0 uses the dervish currently has.

Dervishes are currently accepted into just about every HM group doing zaishen quests and bounties, as melee damage dealers. Often alongside or in place of warriors - and they get accepted more than Assassins.

What was your problem again, hmm?

You fail to see the biting sarcasm. No one liked rogues and no one would bring a rogue unless they were absolutely forced to bring one. The game developers made a situation where rogues were absolutely mandatory. This did not help rogues get into groups, this did not improve their class, this did not help 'diversity', this did not improve the game, this did not make the game any more enjoyable. In a lot of raids rogues were told to stay out of everything, literally just afk until we need you for something.

But would dervs be any better off if they had a role where they are told to just stay over there and not get in the way of anything? They already do, its called orders. Small niche rolls make the game worse, not better.

Orders isn't a reason to use a dervish, because Necromancers can do it too.

Also, you seem to think that incorporating dervishes into the game requires them to be forced into it. It doesn't. It just requires there to be a reason to use them.

Here's an example. Let's say that MSDB sins had 40 AoE dps with no limit on number of targets. And then lets say scythe warriors and scythe sins had 60dps, but only to 3 targets.

Strictly speaking, the MSDB sin is hitting more targets, but the scythe users are doing more damage to the targets they do hit. Each has it's advantages.

Now, every scythe user besides the dervish has other alternatives to justify their being in the party. But, what if the dervish had 65 dps to three targets? Or 50 dps to 4 targets? There'd be a real reason to use them.

Of course, this scenario has already been suggested in various forms, but it's one example of how dervishes could be "fixed" without having to do what you're implying would have to happen. In other words, your doomsday scenario is by no means the inevitable result of fixing dervishes.

Where are these groups, and how can I find them?

On second thought, maybe not. Are these PUGs, or guild/alliance groups? Random PUGs doing the harder areas of the game that would take a dervish over a warrior or assassin are the kinds of PUGs who think that HB is great. In other words, the ones that suck.

Also, ease of being able to get into groups is beside the point. It's about whether or not there's actually any reason to use a derv. And there really isn't.

Example: ER healers. They can outheal a pure heal monk and outprot a pure prot monk at the same time. Most PUGs don't realize this, however, and prefer monks for that role. Does that make the ER healer any less overpowered? No, it doesn't, just as the dervish's ability to get into a PUG doesn't affect how underpowered it is.

By your logic, nobody, and I mean NOBODY should play their Necro as a minion master. Heroes do a MUCH better job of using skills like Death Nova, Jagged Bones, Feast for the Dead, etc. while a human will be slow to cast due to targeting and not know WHEN to cast most of the time. But playing an MM on a Necro is a way to play, and people do so. It is less effective than other options available, but it doesn't stop anyone. Dervish is fine. Assassin and Warrior MAY be able to do better with a scythe, but not necesarily better with enchantments. Doesn't make a Dervish worthless, it MAY make them worth less.

If you aren't using PUGs because they suck, then there shouldn't be a problem anyway. If your guild/alliance/friends won't let you use a Dervish then you need to find new people to play with. If it is yourself that won't let you use a Derv, then that is something you should talk to you psychologist about.

As you noted, an ER E/Mo can outperform a Monk for some things. Does that mean people won't let a Monk play? Does that mean people shouldn't use a Monk? Does that mean the Monk needs to be buffed?

The Vow of Piety and Dwayna's Touch nerfs effectively derailed the only "niche" role the dervish had. Is there any team out there looking for an orders dervish? I would KILL if someone asked for one, anywhere, for anything. People take dervishes in groups now when they don't think an area is difficult enough to warrant a superior class. There's no point in bringing one when an assassin, a warrior, a rit, a ranger, or a paragon can do their job better (assuming the dervish is meant to be a frontliner of some sort). You're right, a niche role won't provide much as far as diversity or improving the class, but God damn it'd be something.

That goes against everything you've ever said in these dervish threads. You've always said scythe damage isn't a reason to use derv because warriors/sins do it better. Well orders shouldn't be done on a necro, because dervs do it better.

But forcing them into the game seems to be about the only reason that you would accept, especially since "they are fun." doesn't seem to cut it.

Everywhere in the game, and particularly Zaishen missions. I imagine you must be saying something along the lines of "flarespam dervish lfg" if you're having trouble getting into skilled groups as a Dervish.

Just because you run ahead and aggro the entire map does not mean the group you played in sucks.

We're well aware that you're horrendously bad at playing Dervish, and that rather than learning to play, you'd rather whine to ArenaNet. Would you like ArenaNet to step in and hold your hand as you play, too?

That's interesting, because I don't recall ever having been in a group with you. So how on earth would you know whether or not I'm good at playing the dervish?

Or could it be that you're simply trying to discredit my argument by trotting out a strawman?

Let's play a little game called "Prove me wrong". Prove to me that there's a real reason to bring along a dervish and I'll shut up.

You're the one challenging the status quo, therefore the burden of proof is YOURS. My experiences with the dervish have been nothing like what you've described, so do indulge us.

Constant Deep Wound and "Save Yourselves!" Spam. Don't know about any non-dervish build that can spam both as much as a dervish.
Maybe also order, don't know how strong a necro one is since Masochism was "nerfed".

The reason for this is the same reason to play any class, the only reason to play any class.

They are fun to play.

They are fun to play

They are fun to play

THEY ARE FUN TO PLAY

EDIT: If you aren't having fun now, then Anet changing dervishes is ultimately not going to affect that. Sure there will be a week or so of novelty as you try new things out, but it won't last. Most importantly if you are not having fun in this game, you should go find something (not necessarily a video game) to do that you will enjoy.

See, that would be a meaningful argument if warriors and sins weren't just as fun. In fact, one could argue that they're more fun, because any fun you could have with a dervish you could have with them, and they have way more options than just the scythe.

Fun is subjective, and any profession can be fun. That doesn't mean there doesn't need to be a change. Heck, you could use that argument to say that nothing in the game should ever be changed. You could say that SF is fine because it's fun, that Ursan was fine because it was fun, that Rits being crappy not too long ago was fine because they were fun, that the current OP PvP build of the month is fine because it's fun (for the people abusing it, at least), etc.

Status quo? The status quo is that the dervish sucks. This has been known for a long time. Hang around the campfire for 5 minutes.

But regardless, I'll indulge you:

Offense? Outclassed by warriors and assassins (see enduring scythe and critscythe).

Defense? Same.

Utility? Same.

Enchantment spam? Same (plus it sucks).

Orders dervishes were nerfed also.

You call that a reason to bring a dervish along? You seem to be confusing "not redundant" with "good". Sure, I can argue that I have a use with that build (it's actually my favorite), but there are problems. Specifically, that the DW only gives me a one-time spike advantage per foe. If the enemy lasts long enough for a scythe warrior to get off a few attack skills, he quickly beats me. All while having better armor and energy management.

The fact that dervishes have to use such extreme gimmick builds like that (where they don't even have anything unique, but just one thing that this guy doesn't have and one the other guy doesn't have) just to avoid being completely redundant actually proves my point.

"Dervish sucks" is an opinion and nothing more, at least until you can (A) come up with a formal definition of "sucks" which everyone can agree with and (B) show that the dervish clearly meets this description. You haven't done that (it's worth noting I don't think something sucks just because "the campfire says so"). The status quo is not a subjective opinion but an indisputable fact - in this case, that Mysticism in its current functionality does not make enchantments cost 6% less energy per rank the way you suggest it should. You want to change the status quo and are thus challenging it. Others want to keep the status quo and are thus defending it.

This being the case, it's your responsibility to prove that it should be changed. The burden of proof means if it ain't broke don't fix it, i.e. until it can be soundly established that something IS broken, deference is given to maintaining the status quo (mysticism's current functionality).

You merely insisting that "dervish sucks" isn't compelling proof, especially for me since I've played the dervish since its inception. I've outtanked and outkilled my share of warriors/sins, and I've often accomplished that only after outright ABUSING my enchantment spam abilities. Critscythes run in terror from my best caster builds, but any dervish with Vow of Silence would laugh and decimate. Need a second opinion? Ask my guildies - if their successes with the dervish aren't like mine, they're even better.

So you can keep claiming a dervish sucks at all these things, but the more you keep repeating it without offering any plausible explanation, the less and less I'll believe it. Likewise I'm not expecting to convince you with my success stories, but that's fine because I don't have to. If it's a stalemate of opinions, then as a rule the status quo always wins.

Dervish is fine the way it is, just need to learn how to use skills properly because I believe you are looking at PvX for skill sets those will not help. I have been in pugs(yes pugs) with dervishes doing great or when im a dervish in HM. A dervish will always outlast a war and sin even in 1v1 they will rape war and sin. In be for someone gets angry for saying 1v1, its a game get over yourself's.