I've been thinking about what ANET considers SKILL ABUSE in PvE...
I remember when Ursan got nerfed, it was because "everyone" was using it to play the HM high end areas (widespread use). I also note that the recently buffed selfless spirit was just NERFED because almost EVERY monk would load it in their bar for HM high end areas (widespread use). And bear in mind the previous buff to selfless spirit enabled, due to the energy management, other classes could be healers (even Mesmers with fast casting - but THAT never really became prevalent in PvE anyway) So ANET didn't want the widespreaed excessive use to create other "effective" healing classes??
So I started thinking about Signet of Spirits (SoS). Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT advocating nerfing SoS!!!.. I'm just noticing that ALMOST EVERY Rit that plays in PvE is STRONGLY ENCOURAGED to run a spirit spam with SoS. This is observed by viewing party window adds GLF Spirit Spam (most frequently in HM missions - ZM of the day). So doesn't that put SoS in the same category as Selfless spirit - excessive widespread use & therefore Abused? In fact, I see many times people in party window LFG Spirit Spam where Rt is secondary...
So ultimately, is the term "PvE skill abuse" applied by ANET only when they want to rationalize a change to PvE???
PvE skill abuse = excessive widespread use???
doomfodder
Saldonus Darkholme
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Originally Posted by doomfodder
I've been thinking about what ANET considers SKILL ABUSE in PvE...
I remember when Ursan got nerfed, it was because "everyone" was using it to play the HM high end areas (widespread use). I also note that the recently buffed selfless spirit was just NERFED because almost EVERY monk would load it in their bar for HM high end areas (widespread use). And bear in mind the previous buff to selfless spirit enabled, due to the energy management, other classes could be healers (even Mesmers with fast casting - but THAT never really became prevalent in PvE anyway) So ANET didn't want the widespreaed excessive use to create other "effective" healing classes?? So I started thinking about Signet of Spirits (SoS). Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT advocating nerfing SoS!!!.. I'm just noticing that ALMOST EVERY Rit that plays in PvE is STRONGLY ENCOURAGED to run a spirit spam with SoS. This is observed by viewing party window adds GLF Spirit Spam (most frequently in HM missions - ZM of the day). So doesn't that put SoS in the same category as Selfless spirit - excessive widespread use & therefore Abused? In fact, I see many times people in party window LFG Spirit Spam where Rt is secondary... So ultimately, is the term "PvE skill abuse" applied by ANET only when they want to rationalize a change to PvE??? |
ele pl
Maybe bacause SoS is not a pve skill? 
athariel
well, Vampirism and Summon Spirits are vital parts of spirit spammer build, which are pve skills.
Tooplex198
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Originally Posted by athariel
well, Vampirism and Summon Spirits are vital parts of spirit spammer build, which are pve skills.
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snaek
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Originally Posted by ele_pl
Maybe bacause SoS is not a pve skill?
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spirit spam is imba imo. the buff was way overdone, spirits were already very powerful but simply just went under the radar because no one used it. this made anet think that spirits were complete crap and so they completely overboard with the buff.
so the only thing that widespread use of skills do is give anet an idea of which skills are overpowered and which are underpowered without actually having to play the game themselves and put in work to figure out how to achieve balance. then again its pve, so who cares bout balance?
dsielschott
they nerfed ursan because u would have a team of 6 ursan and 2 healers.....
u CANT have a team of 6 spirit spammers and 2 healers.....wouldnt work
but along with a good team a spirit spammer is a great person to have along, and i think that's why they wont nerf it cause it's part of the "team build"
lets hope......
u CANT have a team of 6 spirit spammers and 2 healers.....wouldnt work
but along with a good team a spirit spammer is a great person to have along, and i think that's why they wont nerf it cause it's part of the "team build"
lets hope......
R_Frost
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Originally Posted by athariel
well, Vampirism and Summon Spirits are vital parts of spirit spammer build, which are pve skills.
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Scythe O F Glory
They nerfed things like Ursan and Selfless spirit because they were so overpowered, not because everyone was using them. Should they nerf Frenzy cause every warrior uses it?
EDIT: Frenzy was a bad example. Really what I mean is that just cause a skill is a staple, it doesn't mean it will get nerfed.
EDIT: Frenzy was a bad example. Really what I mean is that just cause a skill is a staple, it doesn't mean it will get nerfed.
R_Frost
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Originally Posted by snaek
it is part of the pve/pvp split and the pve version 100x more powerful than the pvp version.
spirit spam is imba imo. the buff was way overdone, spirits were already very powerful but simply just went under the radar because no one used it. this made anet think that spirits were complete crap and so they completely overboard with the buff. so the only thing that widespread use of skills do is give anet an idea of which skills are overpowered and which are underpowered without actually having to play the game themselves and put in work to figure out how to achieve balance. then again its pve, so who cares bout balance? |
Teysar kitait
i was about to say it's not a problem cuz only rits use it but i forget that my ranger uses it every week to farm nick's items...
but for skills like ursan and selfless spirit, they take the skill out of playing the game... although you can solo farm UW with spirits it does require some skill of placement i guess.
but in answer to your question i'm not sure what counts as abuse, you'd have to get an answer from a dev
but for skills like ursan and selfless spirit, they take the skill out of playing the game... although you can solo farm UW with spirits it does require some skill of placement i guess.
but in answer to your question i'm not sure what counts as abuse, you'd have to get an answer from a dev
Benderama
spirit spamming is the same as an MM, you're just maknig more allies to attack or be used as a wall, it's just lucky for necros that they need only a few skills to sustain their minions whilst rits need a lot of skills to create the "army" of spirits each time. i use SS kinda a lot, even though its just a case of summon up loada spirits that kill it works it doesnt really have to be complex.
i guess abusing a skill is just when players center an entire build around a single skills/ that skill doesnt have many drawbacks (e.g. quick recharge cast time, energy, functionality is good)?
i guess abusing a skill is just when players center an entire build around a single skills/ that skill doesnt have many drawbacks (e.g. quick recharge cast time, energy, functionality is good)?
FoxBat
Widespread abuse is a significant factor in PvE nerfs, yes.
Every single monk bar brings selfless spirit -> nerf.
Ether Renewal eles are vastly more powerful than any version of selfless spirit monk but hardly used -> no change.
Before the skillsplit, permaform was possible with A/Mes and Me/As, but difficult because you had to time casting the echo'd copy just right, with only 1 or 2s of wiggle room. You could still destroy the chaos plains and it was faster then since you could get them all to ball. Note that Anet didn't care until they made it easy enough that everyone and their mother rolls A/Es and start messing with ecto prices.
Every single monk bar brings selfless spirit -> nerf.
Ether Renewal eles are vastly more powerful than any version of selfless spirit monk but hardly used -> no change.
Before the skillsplit, permaform was possible with A/Mes and Me/As, but difficult because you had to time casting the echo'd copy just right, with only 1 or 2s of wiggle room. You could still destroy the chaos plains and it was faster then since you could get them all to ball. Note that Anet didn't care until they made it easy enough that everyone and their mother rolls A/Es and start messing with ecto prices.
MagmaRed
Spirits are overpowered. I love using my Rit more than I used to because of it, but I see that my reasoning is not based on balance. I do understand why they changed what they did, and wouldn't mind seeing a SMALL revert. Spirits went from 3 or 5 second casts to 3/4 or 1 second casts. I'd be just as happy to use my Rit the way I currently am with 1 or 2 second casts on the spirits.
Verene
Signet of Spirits is definitely powerful, and the buff to spirits made spirit spam more powerful than before, and more importantly it made Ritualists viable as something other than just support (which is boring, IMO).
But on the other hand - if you're running spirit spam, then your entire bar must be dedicated to doing just that. SoS allows some compressions but even with that, at least half the bar will be spirits. All spirits have long recharge times, with SoS being the quickest at 20 seconds. Spirit attacks are strong, but the AI isn't always very intelligent and they'll target the wrong things or not attack at all. If you're not careful with your placements, they'll overaggro. They're very susceptible to AoE damage unless you are very quick with Summon Spirits. And even with Armor of Unfeeling, spirits are still very fragile and if they go down before they've recharged and you can recast? That's trouble.
And then there's also the fact that you can only have one copy of a spirit active at a time. It's not like running with a couple of MMs where there are minions taking over everything on the map.
So, powerful? Yes. Definitely so. Overpowered and/or imbalanced? No. If you could have multiple copies of a spirit active at once, or they had much shorter recharges, you could make the argument that it was too strong, but as it stands, it really isn't.
But on the other hand - if you're running spirit spam, then your entire bar must be dedicated to doing just that. SoS allows some compressions but even with that, at least half the bar will be spirits. All spirits have long recharge times, with SoS being the quickest at 20 seconds. Spirit attacks are strong, but the AI isn't always very intelligent and they'll target the wrong things or not attack at all. If you're not careful with your placements, they'll overaggro. They're very susceptible to AoE damage unless you are very quick with Summon Spirits. And even with Armor of Unfeeling, spirits are still very fragile and if they go down before they've recharged and you can recast? That's trouble.
And then there's also the fact that you can only have one copy of a spirit active at a time. It's not like running with a couple of MMs where there are minions taking over everything on the map.
So, powerful? Yes. Definitely so. Overpowered and/or imbalanced? No. If you could have multiple copies of a spirit active at once, or they had much shorter recharges, you could make the argument that it was too strong, but as it stands, it really isn't.
kupp
The things that were nerfed weren't nerfed because of widespread usage but because they made for easy HM and clearing elite areas by rolling your head across the keyboard, in record times (wich totally isn't what SF is doing nowadays, totally). People need to estabilish a clear line between what's an effective build, and what's overpowered.
I for one would be royally pissed off if anet decided to nerf Save Yourselves for example. It's commonly used by warriors/paragons in HM and elite areas but dispite it's advantage doesn't break the game appart like Ursan and SC's do these days.
I for one would be royally pissed off if anet decided to nerf Save Yourselves for example. It's commonly used by warriors/paragons in HM and elite areas but dispite it's advantage doesn't break the game appart like Ursan and SC's do these days.
Pugs Not Drugs
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Originally Posted by dsielschott
they nerfed ursan because u would have a team of 6 ursan and 2 healers.....
u CANT have a team of 6 spirit spammers and 2 healers.....wouldnt work but along with a good team a spirit spammer is a great person to have along, and i think that's why they wont nerf it cause it's part of the "team build" lets hope...... |
Anet nerfs stuff because they want diversity in PvE. When all mesmers focus their build on COP, or all UW Clears are done with shadow form, theres a problem. I agree with the Selfless buff. It is still a good skill, just not way op. And lots of rit builds do have sos, its just that sos is flexible so you can have many different bars running it as the elite.
kostolomac
I lol'd when everyone on the forums and in-game was celebrating the nerf of ursan and the end of "skill-less and too fast clears". Then came shadow form. It still brings a smile to my face.
FengShuiDove
I'm a bit upset over the Selfless nerf. Other than that, it's the fact of basing entire bars/builds/teams around PvE skills (ie Ursan) that becomes an issue.
Meridon
PvE Skill abuse is when a player- or teambuild is completely centered around one skill or concept. This is no problem, as long as that build isn't idiotically way more effective than any other build that isn't using this formula.
Examples from the present and past include of course Shadow Form, Ursan Blessing, Cry of Pain, Discord, Ray of Judgment, 55 Monking, Assassin's Promise, Barrage/Pet teams, etcetera, etcetera...
Examples from the present and past include of course Shadow Form, Ursan Blessing, Cry of Pain, Discord, Ray of Judgment, 55 Monking, Assassin's Promise, Barrage/Pet teams, etcetera, etcetera...
Axel Zinfandel
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Originally Posted by MagmaRed
Spirits are overpowered. I love using my Rit more than I used to because of it, but I see that my reasoning is not based on balance. I do understand why they changed what they did, and wouldn't mind seeing a SMALL revert. Spirits went from 3 or 5 second casts to 3/4 or 1 second casts. I'd be just as happy to use my Rit the way I currently am with 1 or 2 second casts on the spirits.
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Usually spirit Spammers are very vulnerable to AoE. VERY. it's a bit difficult to get all your spirits out of aoe before at least some of them die. They are pretty vulnerable to attack, moreso it seems then minions are. While this is good in a sense, if all your spirits die, you're pretty much skrewed for the duration of some of these skills' long recharge times.
Point being, Spirit spammers are not OP. OP are things like Shadow Form. Spirit spammers will be OP when they become the 'norm'. Right now they are just a pretty good alternative.
Desert Rose
Yes, a character that can summon 4 meat shields which are half as tough as an avarage caster and deals up to 100 DPS at range, can support your phyicals with splinter weapon, has one of the most powerful e-managment skills in the game and still has a free secondary, 3 free skill slots and 103 free attribute points is absolutly balanced and not even slightly overpowered... NOT.
If you devote your entire bar to spirit spam you can even go up to 150 DPS and 6 meat shields that are tougher than an avarage caster.
Arguing spirits and in particular SoS aren't overpowered is ridiculous, but after all it's PvE, who cares about balance?
If you devote your entire bar to spirit spam you can even go up to 150 DPS and 6 meat shields that are tougher than an avarage caster.
Arguing spirits and in particular SoS aren't overpowered is ridiculous, but after all it's PvE, who cares about balance?
wilebill
The devs are impossible to predict.
careyt
I guess I'm the only rit that never uses SoS in their bar... wow. It's a nice skill, but spirit spamming still isn't all that good compared to other things you can do with a rit. I still prefer to run a party support build with AP and YMLaD! and FH! and GDW with spirit burn and splinter. but I guess I'm just strange and set in my ways as I've been a huge fan of Rits since before SoS and spirits got buffed.
pinguinius
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Originally Posted by Desert Rose
omg ppl want rits in parties now! anet nerf pls!!
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See: Minion masters and the recent pet buffs for more examples
Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by doomfodder
Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT advocating nerfing SoS!!!.. I'm just noticing that ALMOST EVERY Rit that plays in PvE is STRONGLY ENCOURAGED to run a spirit spam with SoS. This is observed by viewing party window adds GLF Spirit Spam (most frequently in HM missions - ZM of the day). So doesn't that put SoS in the same category as Selfless spirit - excessive widespread use & therefore Abused? In fact, I see many times people in party window LFG Spirit Spam where Rt is secondary...
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A better comparison would be SoS vs the entire Healing Prayers and Protection Prayers line.
gone
saw this coming from a mile away.
Mr. Undisclosed
I could kinda see them nerf SoS if that wasn't like the only good offensive elite they had at their disposal.
Sorry but I think you need to leave this thread until you know what you're talking about.
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Originally Posted by snaek
spirits were already very powerful but simply just went under the radar because no one used it.
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Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
Because where the Monk is still widely in demand without Selfless Spirit, upgraded spirits are the only thing getting Ritualists into groups; that and (very rarely) restoration.
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Anyway, I don't really see this happening to SoS rits, as the nature of Binding Rituals itself doesn't allow that sort of mass abuse. SoS might be toned down a little in the future, but, I believe, never to a level it becomes THAT much less usable.
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Originally Posted by Mr. Undisclosed
I could kinda see them nerf SoS if that wasn't like the only good offensive elite they had at their disposal.
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| Sorry but I think you need to leave this thread until you know what you're talking about. |
MelechRic
I always liked to run a spam build on my rit prior to the SoS changes. I stopped playing for a while and when I started up PvE again to go do Zaishen quests I naturally went back to my rit because it's basically an easy-button PvE class.
I read about SoS in the rit forums and basically dropped SoS in place of Wanderlust. I have to say it's uber. I cleared out the last Zaishen bounty on Mallyx the Unyielding with H/H in way under the 20 minute allotment in hard mode.
It's not even funny how fast things drop when you hit them with Painful Bond + 6 spirits.
It's PvE so I don't even care if it's nerfed or not. It's not a viable farming build, but it does make rolling through areas pretty easy. It's remeniscent of the good old days when minions weren't limited to 10. Ahh the times I had in Sorrow's Furnace with 32+ minions...
I read about SoS in the rit forums and basically dropped SoS in place of Wanderlust. I have to say it's uber. I cleared out the last Zaishen bounty on Mallyx the Unyielding with H/H in way under the 20 minute allotment in hard mode.
It's not even funny how fast things drop when you hit them with Painful Bond + 6 spirits.
It's PvE so I don't even care if it's nerfed or not. It's not a viable farming build, but it does make rolling through areas pretty easy. It's remeniscent of the good old days when minions weren't limited to 10. Ahh the times I had in Sorrow's Furnace with 32+ minions...
Yelling @ Cats
*waits anxiously for Mending to be nerfed for non-monks*
But no, skills should be nerfed when it is glaringly more powerful than any alternatives.
PvE "balance" shouldn't be about "omg the monsters don't stand a chance", because monsters never stand a chance. PvE "balance" should be based around "why the hell would I use skill X when I can use skill Y?"
But no, skills should be nerfed when it is glaringly more powerful than any alternatives.
PvE "balance" shouldn't be about "omg the monsters don't stand a chance", because monsters never stand a chance. PvE "balance" should be based around "why the hell would I use skill X when I can use skill Y?"
kanuks
Sos can't be overused in a party because only 3 of these spirits can be into play at the same time, unless I am wrong. 1 Sos per party isn't abusive at all. 7 SF in a party is abusive.
Hell that's not even the reason why SF should be nerfed. It should be nerfed because standing in a mob of 20++ HM monsters indefinitely without taking a single damage isn't normal and GW for sure wasn't intended to be played that way.
Hell that's not even the reason why SF should be nerfed. It should be nerfed because standing in a mob of 20++ HM monsters indefinitely without taking a single damage isn't normal and GW for sure wasn't intended to be played that way.
Anon-e-mouse
Funny how tonight when I looked in the party window, all I saw was "Party looking for MM, Nuker, and Monks"... dunno where the op saw a window full of "Party looking for SoS", but it for sure wasn't todays Z-Mission.
Mr. Undisclosed
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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt
I agree with him/her. Spirits WERE powerful even before the update. Armor ignoring damage, very few counters, DPS could be pretty high in the right circumstances. The downside - inherent weakness of the spirits apart - was the high energy cost and the slow casting time that induced people to precast rituals and then to move them around with Summon Spirits. Not much has really changed with this, except you can spare points in Spawning Power since spirits are much more durable on their own now. |
Drelias Melaku
Considering spirits die rather quickly when attacked (and they ARE targeted by enemy AI often), I don't think it's that overpowered. Secondary Rt SoS Spirit Spammers work decently in NM, but with no Spawning, the spirits drop like flies in HM.
I have noticed that SoS Spirit Spam isn't 'required' for a rit to play in a group as Ursan and HB were back in the day. People are still open to other Rit builds.
You sure about that? I had a lot of spirits up yesterday, and every time I attacked a different target, the spirits followed suit. They did this even if the previous target was still alive, and there was very little delay.
I have noticed that SoS Spirit Spam isn't 'required' for a rit to play in a group as Ursan and HB were back in the day. People are still open to other Rit builds.
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| ...and its not like you can control what the spirts attack. ive seen it alot where all the spirits are up yet only 2 or 3 are actually attacking the target you first attacked. |
careyt
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Originally Posted by Drelias Melaku
Considering spirits die rather quickly when attacked (and they ARE targeted by enemy AI often), I don't think it's that overpowered. Secondary Rt SoS Spirit Spammers work decently in NM, but with no Spawning, the spirits drop like flies in HM.
I have noticed that SoS Spirit Spam isn't 'required' for a rit to play in a group as Ursan and HB were back in the day. People are still open to other Rit builds. You sure about that? I had a lot of spirits up yesterday, and every time I attacked a different target, the spirits followed suit. They did this even if the previous target was still alive, and there was very little delay. |
I'll always hold that the strength of a rit is weapon spells and item spells. there are a handfull of defensive spirits that are great, but most offensive ones are just not that reliable.
EDIT: offensive spirits are good, they can deal serious damage and are a GREAT wall for the backline. I just don't feel they're as good as other things that Rits can do.
Tenebrae
Yep , offensive spirits control is none i think , they aggro like minions and there you go , wont stop till target is dead or other spirit attacks anything else ...... is kinda weird but i dont think they follow their masters target calling.
Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by Mr. Undisclosed
If you don't think those things made spirits weak you're wrong. Those things you listed pretty much killed spirit usage before the update. Spirits are actually viable now unlike before when they were really only useful when you wanted to screw around and for a certain few other things. Powerful? lol.
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I've been playing my Rit for ages and played spirits even before the "spirit spammer" label came out. Little has changed for me now, my Rit is still the one the gets through things with more ease.
People who played spirit spam (like me) dealt with those weaknesses. Slow casting and fragility were both addressed with a wise use of Summon Spirits. Sure, they were annoying issues that pushed a lot of players away. Ok, you had to rely on a PvE-only skill, but those downsides were pretty much balanced by their firepower. Stackable, armor ignoring damage with very few counters. Protect them, move them away from AoE, and you were done. Not easy, and not enjoyable for most of the players out there, I admit it, but that doesn't make a thing "not powerful" to me.
Now little has been made to make spirit spam more "powerful", it's just "easier" since you don't even need to really pay attention at your spirits anymore. I don't even spend that many points in Spawning Power now, the level increase is enough.
ogre_jd
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Originally Posted by careyt
you just got lucky... I've been playing my Rit since the factions preview event and I've never been able to actually "control" the targeting of a summoned spirit. from time to time using summon spirits can help push the target better, but it still isn't a consistent thing. seems to me you just got lucky. the targeting of spirits is one of the main reason I feel they're not very good for much beyond fodder for Rit e-management skills and to reduce life sac or soloing.
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Probably just be a matter of subjective perception, of course, but that's how it seems to me...
Highlander Of Alba
What a bunch of winners geeze,
One post whats overpowered, 1 post whats underpowered ect
Get a grip guys if you dont like it the way it it is dont put it on your skillbar...
Oh no cant do that cause I use it in pve on other chars.
You know this was the sort of thing that started yrs ago guys wanting what ...they...want to play with.
So either accept what they do even if you moan or just simplay dont play the game . the guys her only represent a small minority.
Adapt is the key simply put..its seeems guys having nothing to do on gw and just want to gripe there woes in print
If its not fun for you then plenty of other games to take up your time
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One post whats overpowered, 1 post whats underpowered ect
Get a grip guys if you dont like it the way it it is dont put it on your skillbar...
Oh no cant do that cause I use it in pve on other chars.
You know this was the sort of thing that started yrs ago guys wanting what ...they...want to play with.
So either accept what they do even if you moan or just simplay dont play the game . the guys her only represent a small minority.
Adapt is the key simply put..its seeems guys having nothing to do on gw and just want to gripe there woes in print
If its not fun for you then plenty of other games to take up your time
.