Recently, I've been tinkering around with the 1/2 sec activation attacks in PvE, basically using that obnoxious JS+FF+DB combo from RA in place of the GFoxS+GFangS+DB+MS combo that's dominated PvE for awhile. It feels pretty damn awesome in the field. I was expecting to use this post to announce it's unequivocal superiority at spamming DB's. Then a funny thing happened -- I ran the numbers and it's not superior.
Numbers:
Code:
The End of MS/DB... Or Is It?
Chthon
Assume 33% IAS. Assume perfect reflexes and timing. Time Xth DB Hits on current target 1st DB 2nd DB 3rd DB 4th DB 5th DB JS+FF+DB 1.5378 4.8678 8.1978 11.5278 14.8578 GFoxS+GFangS+DB+MS 2.6334 4.389 6.38900 9.2668 12.1446 GPS+MS+DB 1.7556 3.5112 5.5112 8.38900 11.2668 Time chain is ready for next target after X DB's on current target 1x DB 2x DB 3x DB 4x DB 5x DB JS+FF+DB 3.33 6.66 9.99 13.32 16.65 GFoxS+GFangS+DB+MS 4.8778 4.8778 6.6334 9.5112 12.38900 if ended on DB 7.2668 10.1446 13.0224 if ended on MS GPS+MS+DB 8.8778 8.8778 8.8778 9.5112 12.38900 if ended on DB 9.2668 12.1446 if ended on MS Kill time for X monsters @ 1DB/monster 1 monster 2 monsters 3 monsters 4 monsters 5 monsters JS+FF+DB 1.5378 4.8678 8.1978 11.5278 14.8578 GFoxS+GFangS+DB+MS 2.6334 7.5112 12.38900 17.2668 22.1446 GPS+MS+DB 1.7556 10.6334 19.5112 28.38900 37.2668 Kill time for X monsters @ 2DB/monster 1 monster 2 monsters 3 monsters 4 monsters 5 monsters JS+FF+DB 4.8678 11.5278 18.1878 24.8478 31.5078 GFoxS+GFangS+DB+MS 4.389 9.2668 14.1446 19.0224 23.9002 GPS+MS+DB 3.5112 12.38900 21.2668 30.1446 39.0224 As you can see, JS+FF+DB dominates at kicking out DB's only when monsters die on the first DB. (And, confirming the conventional wisdom, GPS+DB+MS dominates pretty much never -- only when there's just 1 monster to kill, or when every monster takes tons of DB's to kill.) I'm somewhat at a loss to explain why JS+FF+DB **feels** so good even though it's producing less DB's. The best hypothesis I've got right now is that the extra attack speed results on better single-target damage, better spikeage, and more adrenaline that translates into a stronger feel. Another hypothesis is that I'm really averaging 1 DB per monster and just am not totally aware of it.
Penny for your thoughts.
Thenameless Wonder
Yeah, um Im good at math and stuff but I am stumpted at what you wrote. !.!
What are the periods used for? A replacement for commas in damage output? Oh, it serves as a decimal point to state number of secs between each chain. Sometimes I have these stupid moments ~.~. Very nice work.
What are the periods used for? A replacement for commas in damage output? Oh, it serves as a decimal point to state number of secs between each chain. Sometimes I have these stupid moments ~.~. Very nice work.
FoxBat
Aside from unblockability, why wouldn't you just do JS-FF-DB-MS for best of both worlds? The real question is whether you can come up with a better elite than MS.
Jaigoda
Jagged>FF is generally superior for a few reasons. First, it has a significantly faster attack speed. I'm not going to try and do calculations, but the attack rate should be just under 2 attacks per second, as opposed to MS>DB's ~1.2/1.3 attacks per second. That makes big buffs like SoH even more OP. Second, you have a faster recharge rate as well as simply getting to DB faster in the first place because of the half-sec attacks. Supposedly someone did some tests and on MoD Jagged>FF>DB had marginally less DPS than MS>DB, but that's not considering switching targets and the fact that even small buffs get multiplied by a large amount (I'd say Barbs, which should be somewhere in almost any party, should be enough to push Jagged>FF past MS/DB's DPS).
Oh, and the free elite slot is nice, too.
Oh, and the free elite slot is nice, too.
Axel Zinfandel
Free elite spot -seems- good until you realize that assassins don't have many other elites that would go good in a build like that :x
xxx wraith xxx
good elite is fox's promise imo. But addind mobius with jagged/FF/DB should work fine 2
Bobby2
Try Jagged-Exhausting-MS/DB for lols.
dfscott
I like having Temple Strike as my elite for bosses and stopping healers.
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaigoda
The precise figures accounting for start-up times and excluding the remainder of the final cycle after DB goes off are in my first post. To generalize what cycle times are going to look like without those details:
JS+FF+DB is limited by the cycle time on FF, which, assuming a 33% IAS, is (.5*.66) + 3 = 3.33. JS & DB have time enough to activate and recharge within that window. You can also fit 2 auto attacks. That's 6 hits in 3.33 sec, for ~1.8 hits/sec.
After it gets started, DB+MS is limited by the recycle time on MS, which, again assuming 33% IAS, is (1.33*.66) + 2 = 2.8778. DB has enough time to activate and recharge (even if MS doesn't recharge it) during that window. There's enough time to fit 1 auto attack. That's 4 hits in 2.8778 sec, for ~1.4 hits per sec.
That's where the great single-target damage is coming from. Presuming you've got SoH, Barbs, Asura Scan, etc. all going on, the extra hits add up to quite a lot.
Quote: Second, you have a faster recharge rate as well as simply getting to DB faster in the first place because of the half-sec attacks. I thought that too, but it's not the case. Please see the figures from my first post. JS+FF+DB gets to the **first** DB faster, but it's strictly slower at churning out DB's thereafter.
Quote: Supposedly someone did some tests and on MoD Jagged>FF>DB had marginally less DPS than MS>DB I don't know about anyone else, but I did that and that was my finding. I suspect that with better reflexes/timing, it could go ahead on single-target DPS. It should.
Quote:
It may 'feel so good' because in comparison to Golden Fox -> Wild/Fang, the road to Blossom is a lot shorter. Almost as short a route as GPS, without the horrific downtime even though it costs an extra slot.
Quote: Originally Posted by Chthon better spikeage Sorry, I have to ridicule Jagged because it's my job. But given enough buffs, I can see where you're coming from with this.
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The point is, you have a free elite, whereas your midliners (heroes) likely can be put to better use. Remember that everything comes with an opportunity cost. The opportunity cost of taking TS instead of MS is very, very marginal. |
Originally Posted by Chthon
$64,000 question
I'm willing to give it a go.
CS 9+1? Dagger 12+1+1 DA 9+1? Jagged-Fox-Blossom-CritEye-IATS!-Scan-CritAgility-AP I've run something like this before, just with other attack skills. Back then there was no point in trying to match a Moebius sin at Blossom spamming, but apparently that's changed...
Scythe O F Glory BuKeNeng
JS-FF-DB-Scan-CritEye-CritAgility-CritDefense-Way Of the Assassin
Added dps from WOTA and some defense from critical defense when facing nasty mobs.
syphonus
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuKeNeng
JS-FF-DB-Scan-CritEye-CritAgility-CritDefense-Way Of the Assassin
Added dps from WOTA and some defense from critical defense when facing nasty mobs. I'd rather take SY than Crit Def. But yeah, WotA makes this ridiculous. perfect e-management and damage off your freaking nut.
BlackSephir
Taking WoTA with with Crit Agi is p pointless unless you suck at covering enchants and it's getting stripped constantly.
syphonus FoxBat
Crit eye is at least as good emanage and isn't elite.
syphonus
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxBat
Crit eye is at least as good emanage and isn't elite.
Sure. I'm suggesting you take both. While they don't synergize perfectly, it still adds up to something like +47% crit hits. It means that you will nearly always be hitting for critical damage- and gaining 4 energy besides.
I averaged 130 DPS on Master of Damage over 3 minutes. This is competitive, if not better, than almost any MS/DB build, and remember that it is sustained damage, the kind that Chthon says MS/DB typically performs better at.  I think MS/DB just got served. EDIT: that was at r3 asuran.
AtomicMew
The math is obvious, and there's really no reason to do "testing" at all. It should be clear that MS/DB comes out on top in an equilibrium situation. The recharge on FF is 3, after all.
You just need to do some actual play testing and you will have your answer. Foes usually only last one chain. JS + FF arrives at the first DB faster than GPS with an extra hit for more single target damage. For targets that last more than one chain, either Temple Strike of Golden Skull Strike completely negate the downside while adding shutdown that MS/DB can't bring to the table. Yes, MS/DB IS outdated, since MS does not add any significant advantage to the bar. It's quite ridiculous how much more powerful the JS+FF+DB + free elite combo is.
syphonus
Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc
The math is obvious, and there's really no reason to do "testing" at all. It should be clear that MS/DB comes out on top in an equilibrium situation. The recharge on FF is 3, after all.
It isn't very clear at all, at least as far as single targets are concerned. What I've seen is that JS/FF performs consistently better.
Carinae
Temple Strike is too expensive. It's ridiculous to spend 15e to blind/daze a target as a frontliner, especially since there are so many other and cheaper ways to apply blind/daze from the midline.
Locusts Fury doesn't add significant damage, even though it looks like it should. When testing JS+FF+DB, it bumped the MoD scores from 208 to 226. Flashing Blades IS nice. Besides the obvious evasion and counter-damage, it's a stance, so it doesn't stutter your chain when applied. Moebius Strike. Yea, keep it. Everyone seems to be forgetting that MS is a +33 damage skill itself. It's the fastest way to cycle DBs and gives you the ability to pump them out against hardened targets. Just use JS+FF as the lead-in. This solution offers a number of advantages: Faster entry into DB/MS Avoids the 3s recharge on FF Does not frontend the damage, allowing more DBs Still viable without MS if you need to swap elites for a zone So really, it comes down to this: Which lead-in combo do you use with DB/MS? High-Speed (JS+FF) or High Damage (GFox+GFang) Despite the obvious synergy on paper of the JS+FF combo, I'm not convinced that it's that advantageous in actual application. GFox+GFang does take single targets down faster and that alone is pure gold, especially when you're trying to get melees off your backline. In that case, you don't CARE about cycling DBs because the penalty for losing the backline is greater than the advantage of optimal performance under ideal situations. RadaArashi
I'd still prefer to carry Sneak Attack, Exhausting Assault/Golden Fang Strike, Moebius Strike, Death Blossom for harder areas.
AtomicMew
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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
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15e is NOT too expensive. You don't need to use it every time.
Also, when you can find a way to apply blind with a midliner that DOESNT involve an ele, let me know.
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You don't need to apply blind or daze as a frontliner, EVER. Name one place in PvE where single target blind is awesomesauce. NONE. Especially with a sin throwing SY.|
Moebius Strike. Yea, keep it. Everyone seems to be forgetting that MS is a +33 damage skill itself. It's the fastest way to cycle DBs and gives you the ability to pump them out against hardened targets.
MS is good for sustained damage, but against "hardened targets", (e.g. healer balls) TS will negate far more HP than DB by way of shutdown. Furthermore, NOT using MS actually provides (quite nearly) EXACTLY the same single target DPS. (You get the same number of hits in at the same time). Taking WOTA or even locust's fury instead of MS will automatically get you more single target DPS. Improvavel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
I'll do them for you.[*]Flashing Blades. Passive defense, plus offense. "Offense, how?" you ask. Spam SY! and you should get lots of aggro, which translates into lots of damage from Flashing Blades.
This keeps popping up on the forums, but is it true?
Does AI check +armor bonus? Can it differentiate from lets say a warrior with a shield vs a warrior with a hammer? Does Ai check armor modifiers like cracked armor? I don't remember having cracked armor and suddenly becoming the target. I don't recall being with a SY! char and suddenly shout SY! and see everyone leaving their targets alone and come after me. I don't remember casting a +armor skill on someone, like SoR, and see a mob leaving that target alone and go after someone else. I do recall quite often entering aggro range with my monk to cast a skill on a front liner and see half of the enemy mob coming after me, though, SY! or no SY!.
Carinae
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Originally Posted by traversc
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There are a few places where dazed comes in handy, namely against HM Ele bosses. Deep Freeze and Sandstorm especially. In ALL cases, it's better to use BHA than have a frontliner run all the way in to apply it. BHA also lasts longer and can be extended even further with a weapon swap, which a ranger can do more easily without affecting party DPS.
Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by traversc
Also, when you can find a way to apply blind with a midliner that DOESNT involve an ele, let me know.
RangerThrow Dirt
Dust Trap
Smoke Trap
Mesmer
Ineptitude
Signet of Midight
Ritualist
Blind Was Mingson
Shadowsong
Weapon of Shadow
Rupture Soul
Plus 3 PvE skills
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It's entirely a red herring anyway, because the classic GFox...MS bar doesn't have any trouble dealing with multiple healers at all. Unless they are running Aegis/Shield Guardian or have Blind in the party, in which case TS has the same problem.
Quote: Originally Posted by traversc
You're right that BHA is superior, but taking BHA requires an extra hero slot, whereas you're hardly losing anything by taking temple strike. Again, opportunity cost is a very important concept.
No. Daze is only truly useful against HM ele bosses, in which case you want BHA so you can apply it at range. You never want to run in against a ele boss, especially on a Sin, to apply Daze.Quote: Originally Posted by traversc
It's NOT too expensive. All your energy skills are basically free thanks to CS, with the exception of Asura scan. The chain actually nets a positive energy flow. Even if it were a problem, all you need to do is auto-attack a few times. just try it out...
...and Crit Eye, and Crit Agility.Now factor in the second monk (and rest of party): Aegis, Shield Guardian, Blind, Blurred Vision, etc. Whiff, whiff, whiff, now you can't even target swap effectively.
I could see it being useful against a HM Monk boss, with or without a second healer. But I think it's a waste to use the human-bar elite skill for the one special situation you might occasionally find in the odd zone.
Of course, if your leaning on Discord as your hero-elites (which is how I take your "free hero slot" comment) then you have larger problems at hand.
Quote: Originally Posted by traversc
None of those I would EVER consider bringing on a hero. You're lying if you say you would. I mean, dust trap??? Smoke trap? Honestly, now....
1) You never, ever need Blind in PvE in the first place.2) Throw Dirt is acceptable if you want to pretend that you need a targeted Blind.
3) Blind Was Mingson is ok as a defensive option. (ie: blinds all the melees that are harassing your backline)
Quote: Originally Posted by traversc
The point isn't that WoTA is a great elite choice. The point is that if you take it, it out-performs MS in any situation, DPS wise, except for sustained multiple target damage.
Flashing Blades would generate more DPS boost than WoTA, and have and SOLID additional effect as well.Even occasionally getting a second MS->DB, which happens a heck of a lot more (many times in a VQ) than your TS scenario, would more than make up for the lost single target damage. And that completely neglects the fact that GFox+GFang takes single-targets down much faster than JS+FF.
