Are religion-based guilds offensive to you?

I want to know what people really think about this subject. I have a little story here explaining how I came to wondering about it. If you just want to answer the questions I have without worrying about why I'm asking, they are at the bottom. Please do not attack anyone for the opinions that they have posted in the thread.

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So, I saw a recruiter advertising for a Christian guild.
One player responded with: "What are you bringing religion into a game for?" and "Idiot, keep your religion out of the game"
Another player began talking about 'religious racism' and how America is so unaccepting of other religions. (Where did this even come from? No one was talking about it)
The first player then went off on his own excursion on how the guild was being made to discriminate anyone non-Christian.

This really shocked me. I quickly chimed in that creating a Christian guild wasn't 'bringing religion to the game.' (Maybe I should have worded that differently, but I'm not that quick at thinking of responses when I'm caught completely off-guard.)
This is what I was thinking: When I saw the advertisement for a Christian guild, I assumed that it would mostly just want its members to avoid using profanity, being disrespectful, or trying to rip each other off. Most of the Christian guilds I've been in didn't require that you were Christian. They just wanted to have decent, helpful people for their members. (Yes, just so it's clear, I am Christian. No, I wouldn't have taken a different stance if the guild being advertised had been Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, or any other religion, although I feel that the player who was outraged in the first place might have reacted differently)

The first player told me to shut up, called me several names, and then began mocking me that I contradicted myself by saying a Christian guild wasn't religious (which isn't really what I meant). I tried to ask some other questions to get a rational response (also, to clarify what I had said before), but he continued to spam 2-3 word insults and didn't want to hear anything I had to say.

I don't know if the recruiter was even in the outpost anymore at this point. He hadn't said anything since his recruiting message.

I left without responding, since it didn't seem like I would get anywhere by trying to argue my point. Apparently, I had already invalidated my 'right' to say anything in the eyes of this other player.

The whole situation leaves me wondering about the general thoughts of other players, though. I figure that players are more likely to be reasonable on the forums than randomly in game, so here I am.

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Here are my questions, if you care to answer them. I am interested in all responses:
Are you offended by or do you object to guilds that are started around religions?
What do you think about guilds that follow moral teachings (no profanity, be respectable, etc.) without outright declaring themselves part of a religion? (This is how my current guild is. We're mostly Christians, but we don't really advertise it)

No more offended than when they are dragged into the wikis or it's presented anywhere else generally secular. I say either let them all in or exclude them all. Piecemeal handling of these things because it's "cool" to be anti-Christian right now in the west is at best hypocrisy if not blatant intolerance. This is a lot like politics though...as the saying goes it's best to avoid it in polite company.

They're okay if they keep their mouths shut about how their religion is right, don't try to "convert" people and keep away from atheist guilds.

But I do wonder what do christian guilds do in the game? Hopefully they don't kill stuff.

nothing wrong with trying to recruit people with similar interests. if people are not interested, they can simply not join or ignore. it would be bad if people tried to start enforcing their beliefs on other people, but this is usually very hard to come across.

Are you offended by or do you object to guilds that are started around religions?

No. I am not religious myself, but I have no problem with those who are. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want, whether it is Christianity, Islam, Hindu, etc.

As long as they aren't causing anyone harm there is nothing wrong with Guilds like these. If they begin to try to push their ideals on other people and put down others because they do not believe the same things, then they are in the wrong and I have a problem with them.

If you are religious and would like a guild filled with people who are also religious, that is great and you should seek it out. People should be in guilds with people who they like and get along with. Religion can help with that. Just don't harm others and keep your beliefs within the guild.

What do you think about guilds that follow moral teachings (no profanity, be respectable, etc.) without outright declaring themselves part of a religion? (This is how my current guild is. We're mostly Christians, but we don't really advertise it)

It is fine. If there are people who are offended by things like profanity and would like to keep it out of their guild, they are entitled to do so. Those of us who use profanity on a regular basis (I'm guilty of this) can look elsewhere for a guild. Everyone is entitled to be able to play the game to their utmost enjoyment as long as it doesn't infringe upon the enjoyment of others (exceptions being PvP matches because one has to win at the expense of another).

While not all of us hold the same Ethics and Morals as one another, we all should try to respect everyone's values. The people who use profanity should respect those who don't and the people who don't should respect those who do. If your guild has a no profanity rule then you have every right to keep profanity out of your guild. You however do not have the right to tell people outside of your guild they can't use profanity. There is a language filter for that. Unless they are directly attacking you or someone with foul language, they are entitled to speak as they wish.

These are just my opinions and do not reflect upon A.net, Guru, or anything else except for me, blah blah blah.

Are you offended by or do you object to guilds that are started around religions? - Don't care, it doesn't affect gameplay so it's pretty much irrelevant

What do you think about guilds that follow moral teachings (no profanity, be respectable, etc.) without outright declaring themselves part of a religion? - Don't care, it doesn't affect gameplay so it's pretty much irrelevant

For the record, if you couldn't tell from my responses above, the best way to describe my views is apathetic agnosticism.

No. They can do what they want.

I wouldn't join one.

In general, I don't care about religion until it has some effect on me [usually in the form of someone trying to push it on to me].

Out of sight, out of mind.

I hope that was tongue in cheek.

While I find the notion of organised religion fascinatingly terrifying, people are free to include/exclude whoever they wish from their guilds or any social networks.

If it's not directly hurting anyone else, then there's no reason to make a fuss.

no more offensive than any other guild with a prerequisite condition to join

A christian guild?
Dwayna help us, thats even worse than those bloody luxon.
What are those heathens doing on Tyria anyway?

May Balthasar smite them!

It seems to me that people who have to seek out a religiously themed guild in this game have some issues. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there's fundamentally anything wrong with a religiously themed guild, but it is at least a bit discriminatory.

The OP asserts that when he see "Christian Guild" he means one in which there is no profanity, a general moral standard and respectful behavior towards guild mates. To that, I say the following, and this is addressed to anyone with a similar believe: Pull your head out of your ass. Its time people of ALL faiths started realizing that the moral standards of real world, modern society are not limited to your personal believe system. None of the values listed are even remotely limited to a particular religion nor are they limited to people following religions in general.

With that in mind, is a guild recruiting ONLY Christian members fundamentally any different from a guild recruiting ONLY white members? Both ideas are predicated around the view that a certain classification of individuals, religion or race in this case, insures certain desirable qualities (or from a different perspective, eliminate certain undesirable qualities) which I have to say is a really ignorant and insecure point of view. I also believe its quite unhealthy to only socialize with people of similar belief systems as yourself... it only serves to encourage people to focus on their differences rather than their similarities, and thus serves a divisive function.

That being said, there's really nothing wrong with asking for guild members to be respectful, non-profane and to follow the general standards of modern society (which includes not stealing/scamming etc). Those standards exist for the good of society inside the game or outside the game. In my guild the topic of religion basically never comes up. If it did I doubt any of us would seriously care what religion the others people happen to be (if any). What matters is that people get along, have fun and don't make the game experience less fun for others.

I actually agree with you about not trying to "convert" people in the game, and staying away from a dedicated atheist guilds just makes sense if you don't want the environment. Doing either of those things would just foster annoyance and anger on both sides.

Although, being part of a non-Christian guild has worked for me just fine in the past. I didn't throw my beliefs around, and people generally respected me for being me.

Christian guilds play the game like everyone else does. We party up for UW, FoW, Urgoz, and The Deep. We sell each other items at reduced prices, show each other builds, and help each other with missions.
As for the idea that we shouldn't 'kill stuff'... it's a game. If the violence of a game affects you mentally, you probably shouldn't be playing it, Christian or not. If it doesn't affect you mentally, then why can't you just enjoy it? =)

Since Guild Wars is a single player game, there isn't any need to have local chat on. Just turn it off and find a guild that suits you.

What the hell ever happened to leaving things alone that don't concern you?

People can do as they want...
I could not care less about religion in Guild Wars (and in gerneral).
+ People freaking out in local chat about subjects like this should just /uninstall.
Religion based guilds are fine, as long as they stick to the EULA
Anyways.. Never take anything personal online =)

Nope, fine with me.

Sounds good to me!

I think all those rude reactions are just misdirected anger about fundamentalism.

Funny, I would assume they would be spamming "all" chat with messages such as "W/Mo in Glad Armor & Male Mesmers are F4gs!" & go around towns at sundays asking for 1p donations, so that people may get a better chance to gain access to their gods realm after deleting their character.


"Grenth is my balance,
my beginning and my end.
His scythe shall bear me home."

True. This reminds me of the deleted scence from Borat in the petshop, and Borat told the lady that he worshiped a hawk (giant hawk or something) and the lady said that that was an idol and that he shouldn't do that.

hope not cuz i'm planning on making one that's named after a metalcore band who'se name involves burning and heaven
u followin?

So long as they don't picket my Guild Hall, tell me I'm going to Hell, preach biblical passages and scaremonger me with the rapture, I don't mind at all.

In other words, I'll keep myself to myself and you keep yourself to yourself. Everyone will be happy that way, I assume.

Does walking by a temple or church bother you?

Seriously as long as they are not bothering me then they dont bother me. It is up to the player to make there decission. Be it christian jewish etc.. its a choice. So spam away to join your guild but don't tell me the world is ending otherwise I will turn the local chat off (much easier to deal with in the pixal world... huh)

No, as long as they do not force the religion on others.
My guild has rules in place to inforce very simular actions. I expect my members to act like civilized people; polite, curtious, well mannered and to help others when they can. This is a game, I don't expect my members to be online every day or to farm faction unless they want/need to. As a side note; I learned not to advertise, the quality of player's one gets is normally very low.

You think so? Try to recruit-spam in Kamadan for your "straight, white-only, no girls allowed" guild. The /report function would explode.[0]

They're apparently called "Double Standards" because they're twice as good.



[0] To head off the flames: my guild has none of these requirements. I'm not speaking from experience. My point will be clear even if you don't take it 100% literally.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. If you know a demographic that you fit in, and you're looking for that environment, isn't it normal to put up some kind of notification so that they can get together?

You're right, all religious and non-religious people should get along and figure out how to co-exist, but that isn't how things are, and there's too much disagreement on what is right and what is wrong. If a player accidentally drops a stack of ectos on the floor, and someone nabs it, did they pick it up to make sure it got back to the original player, or is it 'haha, you dropped these and now they're mine'? Then, does the rest of the guild laugh at you, too, for being foolish? (I didn't make this up. The worst case here was written up on the forums, by the person who picked up the ectos. It was split about 50/50 on whether they were in the wrong or not)
Maybe I should 'pull my head out', but I can't bring myself to trust general society.

In relation to guilds, I can't join just any guild and expect the standards I'm looking for to be there. The notion that the guild is Christian gives me an indication that it probably has the attitude and environment that I'm looking for. Granted, it's not a guarantee, but at least it's a direction for me to look in.

I have found a few normal guilds that were good for me, but I don't recall knowing anything like that from their advertising. It took a few days after I got into the guild before I found out whether things were really what I was looking for or not.

Christianity is a choice, and probably affects how you handle situations and people (I'd hope so, anyway). Skin color is not a choice, and dictates nothing about you. The discrimination would be different, but... well, actually, I agree with you. I don't think that only Christians should be allowed in a guild. Given that, it shouldn't be advertised as such, and instead advertised as a 'no profanity, helpful' guild.

I agree. That's partially why I made this thread. I want to hear what other people think, and you are giving me quite a bit to think about.

That sounds like a nice guild to be in. Although, if someone was actually looking for support in relation to their beliefs, they would need a religious connection somewhere.

As I typed that last sentence, I realized that it wouldn't necessarily make sense to someone who doesn't follow a religion, but there is a lot of emotional support available from a religion's teachings. In the same way that some people find comfort in a friend or a psychiatrist, there can be relief by talking about problems through your religious connections, too.

Sure, it wouldn't be a guild for the sole purpose of playing the game, but is that a bad thing? In that case, why wouldn't you make a guild that connects those people? (Sorry, I didn't mean to end on another question, but it just kind of came in my train of thought.)

Attention girl gamers! You're invited!

Despite persistent rumors to the contrary, girls do, in fact, exist on the internet, and play games - including Guild Wars. It does still seem to be hard for folks to accept, and sometimes it can be tiresome being the only girl on the team with seven guys, some of whom don't even believe that actual girls play this game.

To celebrate girl gamers and create a space for us just to have a good time playing together, Girl Power guild is sponsoring a weekly all girl gamer event, "Girl Power Hour!" The first one will be held this Sunday, February 25th.

Much like the weekly all-mesmer or all-beastmaster Zoo Crew events that you may have heard of, Girl Power Hour will meet at a set place and time each weekend. From there, we'll form up teams and head out to do something fun together - Clear Tomb of Primeval Kings? Sorrows Furnace quests? Domain of Anguish questing? The Deep? Urgoz? Fissure of Woe? Underworld? Get Master's reward for missions on the upcoming "hard mode?" All of those and more, eventually.

Our first event will be to find Galrath, and put an end to his villainy. We will meet in what will be our meeting place every weekend, the Temple of the Ages, International District 1, at what will be our meeting time every weekend, 1:00 PM Eastern Time (10:00 AM Pacific, 6:00 PM GMT). Girls only, please. Of course, there's no way to check the player behind the avatar, but boys discovered hiding behind female characters will be mocked mercilessly.

What: Girl Power Hour - Girls Pwning Galrath

Where: Temple of the Ages, International District 1

When: Sunday, February 25, 1:00 PM Eastern, 10:00 AM Pacific, 6:00 PM GMT

Who: Girl Gamers

Why: Because girls kick butt!

Christian guilds are fine with me. Others wouldn't bother me depending on their religion and religious percepts (ie no cults that advocate suicide-bombings or suicide-anything).

Beta, what you saw was something very popular among the American left: it's okay for them to be vilely discriminatory against Christianity or anything else that is traditionally an American value for that matter.

This was never about race and even if it were it would be impossible to enforce in a game like GuildWars. Would you have your members upload photos of themselves? How would you prove it was them, a notary?

Don't draw this comparison...just don't, you had to know it was terribad and going for the knee-jerk immediately after you typed it.

Well said.

no it doesnt bother me just everytime i see them recruiting gives me a good laugh and i go on my way

I dislike the propaganda of Christian/[Insert Religion] Guilds, mostly because I think the mixing of reality to a fantasy game is not a good match.
Online people tend to be more mean due to the anonymity that is acquired by playing, calling names is easier and a lot of argue is guaranteed, most of it senseless arguments which IMO have nothing to do with the game at all (ergo why to bring reality topics on a place where people only want to have fun, mostly, and I speak for me).

Even though, intolerance is inexcusable and I agree: people must have a degree of freedom on what kind of game play they would like to have.
I would still prefer that guilds weren't allowed to label themselves as any kind of religion, preferring people to be forced into looking for the correct guild by testing and retrying.

Being Christian, Muslism, Catholic or Budist does not turn people into "good" nor anything like it, and so it is not necessary ingame. Bad presumptions, bad consequences.

Useless comment is useless.

I'm won't say it's offensive, but it definately is biased. Since when do you have to be Christian to be a decent human being? At what point in time did those two equate each other? Most 'christians' I know are racist, mean, selfish people who use propaganda and dogma to threaten people who aren't part of their club. If you want a guild to have members that fit a certain criteria such as what you described, then say so and leave religion out of it.

Religion is an exclusivity club and it doesn't matter which religion it is.

Have whatever kind of guild you want. No skin off my nuts.

The only problem I have is when someone's in general chat spewing their religious/lifestyle crap.
Put 'em in the same guild and then they can use guild chat to talk nonsense to each other.

It's not offensive, but I do feel a sort of condescending pity for the basement-dwelling failures who make (and/or join) a "christian guild."

As long as people tell me what to do (like the other day at work), it's ok with me. Just don't ever tell people to what to do, never.

What you are saying is far too general and incredibly wrong. You do realize when you are talking about 'all faiths', that religion and morals vary between a cultural societies? For instance, western society is based on a judo-christian morally based system - it has just evolved over time with many individuals changing it into what it is today. Our own understanding and thought is from a western social understanding of ethics and morals which are governed by a very Judo-Christian set based concepts, of either compassion, goodness and evil. But it is wrong to group all religions, as if they all share the same moral code of conduct.

But lets take what you said "a general moral standard and respectful behavior" I guess you mean treat people with human dignity? Even Human dignity was a concept brought by western civilization from mainly Judo-Christian monotheism and Graeco-Roman world understanding (see Milton Lewis and Max Weber).

Uhm, yes. Christianity is based around faith and spirituality. Christianity also doesn't limit people towards a certain ethnic demographic - if that were the case, you wouldn't have Christians across the whole world, in different parts of every country!

To the OP: There is nothing wrong in recruiting people who have similar interests to you or to your fellow guilds mates.

I can say with a lot of certainty that the "Christian" Demogrphic is about as widely varied as the general population. You're assuming the being Christian insures certain properties, which really and truly is not the case. How many convicted murders are Christian? How many rapists? In the US, for example, the majority of people call themselves Christian, and yet from that majority still comes most of the violent criminals. Sure, those people may not truly be following the tenants of Christianity, but isn't that the point? People give themselves (and others) labels most of the time without truly knowing what those labels mean. As an example, how many people would describe Stalin as a Communist? Or Obama as a socialist? Or Bin Laden as a Muslim? Yet, in none of these examples does the label fit the individual. So no, seeking the Christian demographic doesn't make sense to me any more than seeking the "white only" demographic.

I don't think its possible to accidentally drop a stack of anything. That being said, I think not stealing generally includes not picking up stuff where its clear the person who dropped it is going to want it (such as a stack of ectos, a rare weapon or minipet, etc.). In such cases, the "right" and mature thing to do is to ask before picking it up if it was dropped just to show off. Again, there is nothing Christian one way or another with such behavior.


So is looking for a guild of friendly, helpful people who live in your time zone. Both choices are discriminatory, but one makes more sense for practical reasons if you ask me.

Now you're seeing my point I think. Even though people may call themselves Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc. religious and moral beliefs are really individualistic, depending on the person in question. To lump all people of a certain faith together is a gross over simplification, and only really serves to further divide humanity with artificiality.

Glad to hear it. If only more people were open to frank, reasonable discussions in the world without falling into the trap of labeling groups, we might make some real progress.

Sounds like a need which would be better met elsewhere. Unless I'm mistaken, Church would seem to be the better place to go for such a need. Of course, there's absolutely no reason why a non-christian couldn't be helpful in providing moral direction or emotional support. Perhaps they could even offer good spiritual guidance. One need not be a Christian to understand and interpret the teachings of Christianity in a helpful way.

Is it a bad thing if people in the game help you out with real life issues from time to time? Not at all. But let's all remember that this is supposed to be a game, not a church, nor a bible study, nor a political activist group meeting place, nor a psychotherapy office. Even though it may serve as one or all of those things from time to time, each of them has a place in the real world better suited to it. If you're logging in to the game for a reason other than actually playing it, you're really just wasting server space.

No different to me than:
* Gay/Lesbian based
* Foreign based (e.g. Aussie, Germany, Mexican)
* Alcohol preference based
* Age based (18+, 30+, 50+)
* Gender based
* Timezone based
* PvE vs PvP based
* HA vs GvG based
* Occupation based (USMC)

People like to play with people of similar interests.

The only recruitements I find offensive are those advertising/advocating hatred activities.

I originally had 'illegal activities' instead of hatred activities, but murdering and killing are part of the game and in most contries those activities are illegal.

1 ~ No offense take by them. I find it no different than role-playing guilds, etc. To each his/her own...

2 ~ Again, no different than any guild having certain requirements, whether it's PvE, PvP, PvX, age, gender, location, etc.

You miss the point. Its not about race, nor is it about religion. The OP is looking for certain qualities in a guild, qualities which exist in people of all faiths, races, ethnic groups, etc. Certainly you couldn't verify that all your members are white, but you also can't verify that people are Christian or not. Even if a person believes they are [insert religion], that doesn't insure that they follow the teachings of [insert same religion].

I don't have a problem with any guild type as long as they dont try to tell me how I should live. I believe I can manage to figure out that myself thank you very much.

However, I'm wondering how anyone can actually claim to be in a Christian guild in GW of all games....
"Thou shalt not kill" seems a bit difficult to follow The only option they would have to get out of that problem would be to play a Healing or prot monk (but that would of course be blasphemy as Monks shouldn't do that sort of thing in churches... the various touch skills come prominently to mind) or a Healer Ritualist (seems like necromancy as well seeing as they call the ghosts of dead people... not to mention dropping cremated remains of corpses everywhere they go).