I've owned Guild Wars for, according to my in-game check, 58 days now. I have yet to familiarize myself with so many concepts and logistics of the game it's not even funny (calling a target? lolwut?). Yet even in this short period of time, I've come to one depressing realization: the Assassin is dead.
"What?" I hear you cry. "How can this be? The Assassin is one of the most-played classes in the game!" To which I offer one simple reply, which is likely to get me summarily banned from further postings in this forum (but what fun is life without risks?): the PermaFormer isn't a true Assassin.
Really, though. Get over the initial shock and think about it for a moment. What was the Assassin at its inception? A nimble, mid- to front-line physical DPS class, excelling at quickly dispatching specific targets and retreating to safety before the enemy could do so much as blink. There was tremendous variation available in the class by its very nature: Do I spec Deadly Arts to inflict long-term misery on my enemies, or do I opt for the quick-and-dirty slice and dice of Dagger Mastery? How high is too high to boost my Critical Strikes skill? (Answer: No such thing.) And is Aura of Displacement really worth taking up my elite slot with, or can I just use Death's Charge and pray that my monk's on top of things?
Such was the Assassin in its heyday, and such was what I was expecting when I first fired up Guild War and instantly--instantly--jumped towards the Assassin class. But what has the Assassin become? A niche class. Not just a niche build--for most builds are, to a greater or lesser extent, designed to fulfill a niche function--but an entire class seemingly devoted exclusively to the eternal maintenance of the loathsome Shadow Form. Now, I make good money selling consets to the permaformers, so I'm far from free of complicity in this fiasco. But I find it somewhat objectionable when one build becomes so dominant that an entire class begins to revolve around that one build. Now, granted that there are other classes who have come to be dominated by one particular build--witness the SS Rit, the 600 monk, the W/N Raptor farmer. But for all that, there still exist very mainstream alternatives to each of these--how about a healing Rit? A 55? A Hundred Blades DPS Warrior (or an Endure Pain/Warrior's Endurance tank)? But when was the last time you saw an Assassin who wasn't a permaformer being given serious consideration for inclusion into any end-game dungeon or area? (DoA, ToPK, UW, FoW...you know what I mean.)
Perhaps this viewpoint is born of ignorance or alack of longevity as a player, but from my point of view, the Assassin is dead. The hordes of Permasins running around laughing as they aggro 80 Raptors and cut them down with one click of SA have about as much in common with the original manifestation of the Assassin as apples do to elephants. So forgive me if this comes off as snide or precious, especially given my status as a GW greenhorn, but the permasin has killed what is otherwise by far my favorite class...and occasionally, it gets to me.
/Rantoff ...comments, criticisms, and thoughts are obviously welcome.
The Assassin's Demise: A Lament
Lieutenant Banana
_Nihilist_
I wouldn't say that the Assassin profession is dead... MS/DB Assassins and CritScythe Sins are around, and LF Assassins loaded up with buffs eat face...
But I do agree that too many shitters are (ab)using PermaForm, and ever since it has been permanently maintainable it should have been hit with the nerfbat harder and more often than a pinata at a birthday party.
But I do agree that too many shitters are (ab)using PermaForm, and ever since it has been permanently maintainable it should have been hit with the nerfbat harder and more often than a pinata at a birthday party.
Gennadios
My first 58 days of game time was spent getting to know my first class and finding skills and combos to make it workable in a team setting. I could care less what builds other people were using or abusing, particularly the farming ones.
How have *you* been spending your time?
How have *you* been spending your time?
damkel
Yeah dude, some of us here have stuck with this game (and its classes) since it was released. A lot of the assassin nerfs (and buffs) are justified if you look at the bigger picture and appreciate how the all the classes work together (or against eachother). To add salt the wound, everyone knows SF is going to be fixed after halloween.
Perfected Shadow
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But yeah once shadow form dies (better if they change it to something completely different; but still usable), pretty much every sin in the game will disappear. That's because most just can't frontline for shit, which is partly due to so much fail ingrained in people's heads. e.g. 'tank n spank is teh only way to do everything', 'nukkerrrs are the end all be all of damage', 7-heal monk bars, ignorance of SY and prot, ignorance of hex/condition removal, list goes on.
~ Dan ~
OP, maybe you should play for more than 58 days. Try 58 weeks before you spout rubbish like this.
Assassins do just what they did in the start, nothing has changed. They are a horribly designed, instagib caster killing class, and they do that. All that's changed is a few SP builds etc have been nerfed.
You have wastrels, coward, YAA, moebius; beguiling haze is still not bad to a certain degree.
And if you want something different, you can run the A/Mo signet bullshit.
I really wish assassins were dead, or deleted, but they aren't, so stop complaining.
Assassins do just what they did in the start, nothing has changed. They are a horribly designed, instagib caster killing class, and they do that. All that's changed is a few SP builds etc have been nerfed.
You have wastrels, coward, YAA, moebius; beguiling haze is still not bad to a certain degree.
And if you want something different, you can run the A/Mo signet bullshit.
I really wish assassins were dead, or deleted, but they aren't, so stop complaining.
Perfected Shadow
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Assassins do just what they did in the start, nothing has changed. They are a horribly designed, instagib caster killing class, and they do that. All that's changed is a few SP builds etc have been nerfed.
You have wastrels, coward, YAA, moebius; beguiling haze is still not bad to a certain degree.
And if you want something different, you can run the A/Mo signet bullshit.
I really wish assassins were dead, or deleted, but they aren't, so stop complaining. Ummm sorry to burst your rage or something, if you read more carefully (if at all), the OP is referring to pve.
SweFighter
IMO you are to new to the game to say that one of the most played charrs is dead lol.
SF=farm/noobs in pvp/or safers :P. The assassin is a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing awsome charr, He do more dmg then other melee guys and even in shorter time.(+ area dmg with some skills)
SF=farm/noobs in pvp/or safers :P. The assassin is a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing awsome charr, He do more dmg then other melee guys and even in shorter time.(+ area dmg with some skills)
ForgeWhelp
Bow-Sin FTW! But that's how I roll....
syphonus
It would be better titled 'Guild Wars' demise, IMO. Not exactly related to your post.
Mr. Undisclosed
Lol you're so bad. Sins pump out some of the biggest damage in the game and still have a multitude of builds that are extremely effective. Also it's not like permanent SF is anything new, it's been possible since SF came out.
FoxBat
Mr. Undisclosed
reaper with no name
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Originally Posted by _Nihilist_
I wouldn't say that the Assassin profession is dead... MS/DB Assassins and CritScythe Sins are around, and LF Assassins loaded up with buffs eat face...
Actually, this supports his point. MSDB and Critscythe are based around melee AoE damage, which is anathema to what the assassin was meant to do (concentrated single-target damage).
Lieutenant Banana
Like I said, maybe I just haven't been around long enough. But honestly, no-one has said anything that I wasn't pretty much expecting. I figured there'd be a sizable contingent of folks who'd immediately assume I didn't know what I was talking about by virtue of my inexperience, and I'd just like to address a couple of those individuals.
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My first 58 days of game time was spent getting to know my first class and finding skills and combos to make it workable in a team setting. I could care less what builds other people were using or abusing, particularly the farming ones.Quote:
How have *you* been spending your time?
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I'm aware. Believe it or not, I actually did some research before playing the game, and currently use a heavily modified version of the PvXwiki's A/D Death Blossom Farmer build to which you're referring. What relevance it has to your argument I'm not sure, since my original comment was more or less meant to be a joke.|
Really? Think about aura of displacement and similar skills, actually consider all shadowsteps, they all have recharges that are too long for general pve. They're just not worth it. The exception is Ebon Escape, but that takes up a pve skill slot. Meh I guess you could do some AP dagger builds with a shadowstep.
True, actually, and the point's well-taken...I was hunting for examples. I still stand by my original thesis that the Assassin as a DPS melee class is, if not dead, then at least treated mostly as a novelty, despite that being its original and intended function. (in PvE, of course...I have no experience in PvP, and I'm not going to try to pretend otherwise.) Quote:
lolno, sins don't have a designated role. MSDB is pretty much a single target damage dealer considering pretty much everything dies before you even get to DB. Another widely used build also is out right now that focuses on single targets JS/FF. I believe theres another build somewhat in use using ap which revolves around single targets. Judging by the attributes sins have access to it looks as if it was meant to be a jack of all trades but a master of none.
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Largely by doing what you said you did: Learning my first class, the Assassin, and figuring out what it could and couldn't do well. (example: even with Crit Def, Crit Agility, Way of Perfection and Mystic Regen up and running, an A/D should not try to be a frontline tank against Bladed Aatxes. Just doesn't seem to work out...no clue why, of course.) lol thats actually the main components of a farming build that is meant to frontline and solo. Yeah, I am new. And actually, I agree with you: the Assassin is one of the most-played toons in the PvE game. But like I've said, what percentage of sins out there aren't an A/E or A/Me? A minute, minute amount--and those that aren't are usually either PvPers or A/Mo EotN dungeon farmers. Now, if you consider secondaries, this whole argument goes to hell--I'm fully aware that the Assassin is one of the most-utilized and one of the more diverse secondary classes in the game. But in terms of just primaries, I still stand by the point that the Assassin as a multi-use class is by and large dead. Meh it seems like you're basing this largely on a few outposts, including ToA and it makes for a fail argument. True, actually, and the point's well-taken...I was hunting for examples. I still stand by my original thesis that the Assassin as a DPS melee class is, if not dead, then at least treated mostly as a novelty, despite that being its original and intended function. (in PvE, of course...I have no experience in PvP, and I'm not going to try to pretend otherwise.) The highest DPS dealing class in the game a novelty? I think not. Like I said, go to any high-end dungeon or explorable staging area. (SoO, Slaver's, UW, &c.) Count the number of NON-SF sins around, and perhaps even more tellingly, the number of groups actively looking for a non-SF sin. Then tell me this is rubbish. Go count the number of professions total that are looking for a group and aren't sins. By this argument all classes besides SF sins must be dead and novelties 
Basing your finds on what pugs/farming pugs are looking for is bad.
Lieutenant Banana
Like I said, I didn't want this to devolve into a flame war...and like I said, I'd love for someone to be able to prove me wrong with concrete examples. (i.e. "I've counted 20-odd non-SF or non-A/E sins in Lion's Arch in the last 2 hours...ergo, you fail.") But I'm perfectly happy to take apart the arguments (or counter-arguments) of others as well.
lol thats actually the main components of a farming build that is meant to frontline and solo.
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Quote: The highest DPS dealing class in the game a novelty? I think not. I didn't say they were a novelty...I said they were being treated as one. In truth, it's the permaform builds that are a novelty, seeing as they're a deviation from the original Assassin concept...but they're hardly being treated as such.
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Now, granted that there are other classes who have come to be dominated by one particular build--witness the SS Rit, the 600 monk, the W/N Raptor farmer. But for all that, there still exist very mainstream alternatives to each of these--how about a healing Rit? A 55? A Hundred Blades DPS Warrior (or an Endure Pain/Warrior's Endurance tank)?
With that in mind, I don't quite understand how you could have arrived at the conclusion that I was saying the permaformer has destroyed the entire metagame. What I'm saying is that the permaformer has largely removed the possibility of other sin builds being accepted into high-level PUGs. Notice that I didn't say "notice that number of groups actively looking for anything that isn't a SF sin." Obviously high-end groups need something other than SF sins...my problem is that there's considerable reluctance to accept any sin that isn't specialized for SF. Quote:
The summary was this:
Quote: "What?" I hear you cry. "How can this be? The Assassin is one of the most-played classes in the game!" To which I offer one simple reply, which is likely to get me summarily banned from further postings in this forum (but what fun is life without risks?): the PermaFormer isn't a true Assassin.
Yes I even re-read the whole post again, his argument was that the assassin class is dead because of perma SF. I.e. his summary only applies to pve, as I pointed out earlier.
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1) You're right, Shanks, if a skill is good, there is no reason to hate it. What you fail to realize, though, is that Shadow Form isn't good, it's broken. Ask any player who understands the game mechanics at all. Near-invulnerability is never a good concept in a game where death happens.
2) The OP did make an Assassin, it was his/her first character. 3) The OP explained his/her stance, and frankly, not many solid arguments against the original complaint have been raised. I don't see how that makes the Thread flame-bait, unless you take into account the fact that PermaSF abusers are going to get upset, and gladly try to make this Thread a flame war. 4) Just because the skill balancers didn't do their research and didn't take into account how absolutely absurd it was to allow fully maintainable near-invulnerability onto the stage doesn't mean that what they did was a good decision. 5) There is nothing wrong with using SF. It is a skill that exists in GW. It has existed since Factions. However, when it was first released, you paid a price for having a short time of near-invulnerability... when it ended, you lost all but 5...50 health, now, you can maintain it indefinitely, getting all of the benefits without suffering the downsides. That is ABUSING a skill, not using it.
Bobby2
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Originally Posted by _Nihilist_
5) There is nothing wrong with using SF. It is a skill that exists in GW. It has existed since Factions. However, when it was first released, you paid a price for having a short time of near-invulnerability... when it ended, you lost all but 5...50 health, now, you can maintain it indefinitely, getting all of the benefits without suffering the downsides. That is ABUSING a skill, not using it.
You can't blame players for utilising a skill to its fullest potential. If anything, blame the developers for allowing this to be possible.
btw, everyone knows ANet is perfectly okay with the situation. Indefinite SF still exists (after token lolnerfs), and despite popular belief the developers are neither blind nor deaf.
dotryok
Personally my GvG team run a sin that run WC ganker buid (OwZjgod8IOsZFWCz4z/OHTwuB) might even use a but that is one of the only times i really see sins in PvP. just to throw this out there my defition of PvP is HA, TA, and GvG...lol all the rest i call noob PvP stuff
And also i run PvE sin ...i get bored and just put skills together on a build and run with it in HM but that is just me
Bobby2
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Originally Posted by Sir Tieger
You quote #5 obviously without reading #4.
The use of the word 'abuse' is incorrect.
_Nihilist_
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Originally Posted by Bobby2
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No it's not. Check dictionary.com:
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to use wrongly or improperly; misuse
And yes, PermaSF is abuse. It is a skill that has an intended downside/adverse affect, and by using a loophole that allows the positive to be gained without suffering the negative, it is misuse.
Bobby2
The devs fully intended permaSF to be possible. By what (whose) standards is it 'wrong' or 'improper', then?
BlackSephir
BlackSephir
And SF causes health lose IF it ends.
Damn, you'd think a dervish would know how enchantments work. Quote:
SF was not intended to be maintained.
It's been maintainable since Nightfall, Deadly Paradox and Arcane Echo my. I think even AN would've noticed since then and taken some action if it wasn't supposed to be maintained.
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Yes, because leaving something game-breaking unfixed for ~3 years is something even AN is capable of doing.
BlackSephir
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Originally Posted by Tenebrae
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No , because as you can see , they did.
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Becaaaauuuuseee? Obsidian Flesh also shouldn't be maintainable- after all it recharges longer than it lasts. Because you say so ? are you comparing Obsidian to SF ? LMAO. Dude check the effects and the downsides ..... what do they have in common ? Being elite and "can not be target of enemy spells" thats it.
They didn't because when perma SF was first possible dungeons and uwsc didn't exist.
Because you say so ?
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Because the game's mechanics say so, junior.
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are you comparing Obsidian to SF ? LMAO. Dude check the effects and the downsides ..... what do they have in common ? Being elite and "can not be target of enemy spells" thats it.
You have absolutely no idea what the hell I'm talking about, do you? I know the downsides and I'm not talking if/how they're game breaking. I'm saying that maintaining an enchant (or a stance) is fine. Of course the difference is too subtle for you. Quote:
You cant argue nothing in favor of SF with "game mechanics" on the same sentence and no , im too far away of your "junior" state kiddo.
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You have absolutely no idea what the hell I'm talking about, do you? I know the downsides and I'm not talking if/how they're game breaking. I'm saying that maintaining an enchant (or a stance) is fine. Of course the difference is too subtle for you.
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It honestly feels like I'm dealing with a big headed kid who's drooling on his keyboard.
Yeah another insult , you are very mature ... i dont think im the kid here.