Red Resigns: What will Anet do about this?

There is nothing in PvP but farming.
You take the most effective builds and team up with the best other farmers possible to farm the sh*t out of all lower teams to get the next rank so you can team up with even more effective farmers to farm more rank.

Gotta admire the PvE grinders in a way, at least they don't feel the need to insult the NPCs after killing/beeing killed by them

At this point I feel it's rather a waste of time to continue debating the semantics of the 'ethics' surrounding RR day. Whether or not it's ban-able is irrelevant; considering the apparent wealth of members who participated in it, the ban on this scale would be so enormous as to be actually dangerous for ANet's user base. It's a lot of freaking people. And with GW2 around the corner, I highly doubt ANet is going to risk losing that potential consumer group.

Even calling RR day an 'exploit' is misleading, really. It's only used in a gaming context, and last time I checked it was known as "taking advantage of [an opportunity/the system/the rules]" in the real world and happens daily. The concepts aren't different at all—a person finds a gray area or a vague requirement and meets it technically without meeting its intent; the only basic difference is the virtual environment.

And it's impossible to punish anyone for this because the fault lies with the rule-maker for not being foresighted enough to anticipate the exploitation.

Does that mean I am absolving the players for using this method to procure umpteen stacks of zKeys? ...I dunno, actually. I might be. The point is, I don't think it's relevant one way or another. What's relevant is how ANet copes with their own goof-up—and it's not stupidity, really, it's a goof-up—while still being fair to everyone across the board. And that means not only to those who didn't participate in RR day at all and gained nothing, but to those who participated in the Zaishen event and remained 'true to the spirit of the game'.

And when you think about that last group of people, the erasure of the entire zKey data prior to that point becomes completely unfair. A fair portion of that latter group might not mind, of course; it's only a game, after all. But it's unlikely that everyone who worked to get their rewards will share that sentiment, and when you add them into the uproar that would certainly arise from the exploiters, the situation ends up as a huge ugly mess.

I'm pretty sure that the decision on this one will be to let the economy balance itself out. Whether the event that spawned RR-day will be retired remains to be seen.

And ladies and gentlemen, this is the definition of GW nowadays.

Being greedy is not a bannable offense.

Welcome to economics 101.

if you don't think money drives people you obviously haven't been watching the news.

Except if you read back a couple pages, A.net has already banned a select few. Let's call them lottery winners. Dare I say, that is "ethically" wrong. Even though the mess entirely is ENTIRELY A.net's fault, they started projecting wrongdoing onto players. First with retroactively calling everyone cheaters, and then with the random bannings. A.net has lost a lot of PR through this fiasco. That's pretty sad.

Hasn't this been dealt with already? Anet can ban people regardless of fault. Also, it is the people's fault for taking advantage of something that could get them ban. I hope that people do RR at least realised the risk they are taking, though I very much doubt they do.

Fortunately for Anet, they're getting an easy way out; deleting HB. But in the long run, this will not solve the underlying problem. Many players have a bad attitude which is encouraged by Anet's past decisions and their failure to put their foot down.

Oh, and for all them blabbing on about... Lol... HA; I'm not fond of fame farmers either. I would give them a collective kick in the arse if I had the power. But you are wrong to characterise all PvPers like that. And no, I never said that all PvErs are farmers... just incase you think of misrepresenting what I said about farmers belonging in PvE.

... Guild Wars is a game for us players... not a business. I bought this game for the purpose of fun, not to horde money and rewards. I never said that greed doesn't drive people, only that we do have an ability to restrain ourselves.

If you had read anything in this thread beforehand, you'd see your issues have already been refuted.

"Anet can ban people regardless of fault. "

Yes, legally. Morally, no.

'No it is not. Refer to any number of my posts or sankt's recent posts. It is not a crime to be an economically rational entity.

You've got to be kidding.

Oh look, irony.

Being immoral isn't illegal.

I really like this definition.

QFT

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc Except if you read back a couple pages, A.net has already banned a select few. Let's call them lottery winners.

Then I'd have to say that wasn't an intelligent decision. (And was also probably knee-jerk.)

Out of curiosity, when was the last ban because of RR day? Or are those type of numbers listed somewhere earlier in the thread and I should go look for them myself? =P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda Hasn't this been dealt with already? Anet can ban people regardless of fault.

Well, yeah. But that's a given, since they're the ones who own the system. However, that goes back to the PR issue: if you want respect and a good following you don't exercise your powers without good reason. (See Spiderman. *rimshot*) My blather above was based on the assumption that that held true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda Fortunately for Anet, they're getting an easy way out; deleting HB.

Or the more simple method of deleting the offending event. I doubt it's as easy to apply the RR method to winning five consecutive battles as it is to winning two period. Or winning ten period, for that matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda Also, it is the people's fault for taking advantage of something that could get them ban.

Quote:

Originally Posted by travers No it is not. ... It is not a crime to be an economically rational entity.

Actually both of these are true. It is the individual's responsibility to decided whether to participate in things like this. But you can't hold each participant individually responsible because you're dealing with a herd mentality. The more cows in the stampede, the harder it is to stop the stampede by stopping the cows; but divert and tire out the stampede and you automatically stop all the cows. You have to deal with the entire crowd in these situations or else you accomplish nothing.

I have no idea how to end this post. =P

So why is this thread still being posted in when we know what anet will do about RR is remove HB in the next update? O_o Is not the question to be discussed answered? O_o

The point is, he was condemning the idea of Anet banning people on the grounds that it was immoral, though still legal. But isn't Red Resigning in the same boat. Sure, it's not breaking any rules but it's not morally right.

Certainly, I fear for your sense of sportsmanship if you think that Red Resign is all fine and dandy. People may point to HA fame farming, but at least in their case they are still playing the game relatively how it was intended.

You seem to be holding on to the delusion that GvG doesn't exist.

Intentional draws exist.

What if you add in the following rule:
* Starting today and for 24 hours, whenever you win 2 matches we'll give you 5 bucks. You can start over any number of times that you want. This reward is repeatable.

Wouldn't you see a point then?

I hope the mods are on closing this thread as soon as the update hits.

HB will be removed in the next few hours, can you please shut the thread along with the update please. It's full of cr.. "nonsense" and it's not even fun reading some of the posts

/edit
rofl Shayne

You seem to be forgetting something. HB is being removed and with that RR as well. I guess you can say part of the issue is thus "resolved".

A big part of how Anet will deal with it or as the thread title is called: "RR: what will Anet do about it?" is not yet clear. Either they are still considering limited options or they are content with banning a select few.

While some are lighting torches and cleaning rust off their pitchforks others are more worried about the apparent lack of understanding for basic legal protection at Anet HQ.

If the thread derails I'm sure a mod will close it, but asking for a close just because HB is being removed means you aren't seeing the full picture.

It is if ArenaNet decides it is. They can ban you for whatever they choose to.

No more hero battle, huh. Well, that sucks, but is not suprising. Anet doesn't know how to fix problems, they just remove content. As someone who doesn't take advantage of these short cuts, I can do nothing but shake my head at Anet and laugh, hard, at all those who get banned for "cheating".


Exactly. They already have your money. Now they have to figure out how to get more of your money. So they addict you, ban you and like a good little tool, people go out and buy new copies of the games. Thats awesome, huh?

Although, if you play alone, or only with friends and obey the rules to the letter, you probably won't ever get banned, but if you get banned for nothing, let that be a lesson to you. Don't play games connected with Anet/ncsoft or any company that makes it a practice to legally screw you over.

"Listen Very Carefully, I Shall Say This Only Once".
I don't want to get into this discussion because it's not going anywhere. 50 people with 60 opinions, basically

You can't ban "few selected ones" because it's a clear discrimination. As a matter of fact the banned person can take anet to court if he/she wishes so. With the ridiculous law system in US and A i smell a win
If taking part in RR is an offense then everyone who exploited it is guilty. 1 farmed key or 5000 doesn't make a difference. So what shall we do then... Ban 80% of PvE players? Eeeer... I don't think so

Besides, fixing that exploit was easy as 2+2
Not repeatable PvP zaishen quest for instance?

This is me, my opinion and I don't plan responding to anyone who dares to comment on what I said. eot.

Lies. The devs have clearly revealed that doing nothing is an option.

But I understand your sentiment!

Nope, you're saying it perfectly clearly. The problem is that ANet doesn't understand the player base. This is surprising, since the players act pretty rationally when it comes to spending their time. Give them a stupid easy way to make in-game cash, and they flock to it like flies to honey.

You only think this. Look, duping was possible for seven months. Prices didn't update fully in response to the changing economic realities because people believed (with cause) that duping was impossible. We don't know when it started, but we can reasonably infer that it went on for weeks if not months, and that it was restricted to a small coterie of people until some idiot (Monkey-something-or-another) inadvertently broke it to the public by trying to trade 1750 armbraces to Max Gladius for a Greased Lightning.

Given weeks or months, a small group of people can do a lot of damage with a dupe.

We must compare to ascertain what differs. I agree with your sentiment on exploits but I am still unclear as to where the line is. We might say that "any balance issue already in the EULA as prohibited is a bannable offense". That would pick up RR, Ebony Citadel and duping as you seem to prefer.

This doesn't address the injustice of letting RR go on for months and THEN ban people, but I'm willing to concede that's a separate issue from a theory of bans.

Sure, but the announcement about match manipulation went into effect months ago, well before RR became popular and around the time ZQuests were instituted as I recall. Now who's being intellectually dishonest? Your point is intentionally misleading.

No, I'm saying that the Saudis suffer when the Norwegians discover oil. The Saudis have a vested interest in torpedoing Norwegian oil explorers! How hard is this? This isn't the first time we've had this argument!

For God's sake man! This is a stupid easy model:

- everyone starts with some amount X amount of cash in zkeys/title
- you can make it at a rate of Y per hour RRing
- your existing stack of zkeys/title decreases in value at a rate of Z per hour as RR devalues zkeys on the open market. For simplicity assume Z is a linear function of X; ie: any amount of X decays at a constant rate.

If we assume that we're all sixteen and time has no opportunity cost, everyone for whom Y < Z loses under RR. As X gets larger, the odds that Y < Z increase irrespective of the magnitude of the supply and demand component of Z. If we add in the opportunity cost of time, such that you really make Y' < Y RRing, things only get worse.

There. Five minutes cooks up an existence proof that mathematically demonstrates your assertion is incorrect. Conditions exist under which RR is bad for you. Therefore, an externality exists. All the players for whom Z > Y' screw all the players for whom Y' < Z. The one group's economic activity imposes costs on the other group. QED.

@Nereida (yeah, yeah, you're not responding, whatever):
link

In short: too frickin bad. Complaining that they didn't ban everyone is like a guy who gets pulled over going 100mph down the highway complaining that he gets passed all the time when he's driving the speed limit.

Fixed!
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QFT
/12char

Happy RRRIP Day

If you do something that feels to you like cheating but doesn't seem to be technically not allowed, don't be surprised if you get banned anyways. ArenaNet doesn't have to let you go just because you found some loophole or omission - it's their game, and if you decide to be a little weasel about your actions, they can ban you anyways.

People who follow the spirit of the rules, rather than just the letter, have nothing to be concerned with.

Hero Battles was removed, no one has stated they've received a ban for RR. Thread is over.