Remove the decreased HM skill activation times.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

I wish to propose the removal of the decreased HM skill activation times. The current speed promotes pretty much just the use of brute force, KDs and potentially daze.
Any sort of reactive shutdown isn't going to be worth it and that just leads to a severely dumbed-down game. Not only that, it really limits certain classes because reactive shutdown is what they do well, and in a game where this does not play a role, they are forced to run different options, which, if the game has a hint of balance, they do not excel at.

Yes, I am FULLY aware this would make the game easier. But then again, I really do not see why shitty team compositions and even shittier bars should be downplayed by breaking the basic game rules.

Xsiriss

Xsiriss

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

Totally agreed,it means we have to rely on gimmicky builds such as discordway. They already have levels (hp+attributes) as well as sometimes insane armour levels. An increase of like 11% would be much more reasonable. I'd also like to see a general armour debuff too, it wouldn't mean discordway what get even more powerful because it relies on armour ignoring stuff,it would mean more viable builds.

/signed

Chocobo1

Chocobo1

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

New Zealand

CoA

N/

HM needs much to fix it, it really is awful in the state it is in.

Sankt Hallvard

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2006

I don't understand the point about pve at all. I pve'd furiously for 2-3 years then moved over to pvp. Did a little pve lately just to check it out and was extremely put down. All the places I went to had nothing in them but sins. Balance anyone?

We went to DoA with a strong army of heroes, but lo and behold this area is not meant to be played with a balanced party. The foes are lvl28-ish, carry pvp builds and come in sizes of 40 at a time. I don't think anyone is arguing that these can be handled by a balanced group. You're forced to run with a "tank", maybe a ridiculous concept of an invincible sin, herding the foes into a small pile and have the rest of your team hit their skills in order 1-2-3-4-5-6. I won't even get into the UWSC deal.

I thought Anet intended pve to be some training ground before moving into pvp? That idea seems totally scrapped. You learn absolutely nothing in pve, in fact you learn that all it takes is putting more powerful stuff on your bar and you win. If aggro breaks or someone makes a mistake it's over. Kite? What for? The enemy is attacking your "tank" and all is good. Remove hexes and conditions? What for? Either the enemy is dying or the hexes come in two columns and you're already screwed.

Then HM makes it all worse. Now the mobs move faster than you can ever hope to do, attack faster, have ridiculous armor and can't be interrupted by someone with a human reaction time. This just makes it harder for any balanced team to deal with, if you run your "permasin" and "pve skill nuker" bars it's as easy as ever. Pve and HM is a pretty dumb concept if you ask me.

I remember pve used to be loads of fun back in the days of sorrows furnace and before that. Thunderhead keep was a real bitch, but of course we didn't run an invincible tank to "round up" the foes back then. You pugged people and the best moments were when people messed up, said something stupid/funny or got into big arguments. Now it seems the only cooperation is making the group then running off in different directions with your solobuild.

So.. /end rant and /signed.

Bob Slydell

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard View Post
All the places I went to had nothing in them but sins. Balance anyone?
So...you automatically assume everything sucks and has no balance because a bunch of retards from PvX wiki run cookiecutterassassins? You need to get out there more my friend.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

/signed, would rather they dumb down HM itself than overpower more skills.

MagmaRed

MagmaRed

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Mar 2007

Our Crabs Know True [LOVE]

R/

You want to turn Hard Mode into 'Slightly More Diffictul Mode'? No thanks. I agree they could have done things better for HM, but it is way to far from implementation to fix those mistakes, and although 'poor', HM is done fine. I'd have prefered them giving ALL monsters a secondary and more useful builds, along with more hard rezes. Something they did for GW:EN, but I know that won't happen as it takes a LOT of work to change builds and test them.

Captain Bulldozer

Captain Bulldozer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2008

Servants of the Dragon Flames [SODF]

/not signed. HM is already pretty easy, no need to make it easier. If they were to change it, we'd basically have another version of NM, except that eles would be crappy damage dealers. In many areas HM is still pretty much NM anyway, especially because the healer builds are pretty much crap. Without the increased cast time for enemy monks, we'd be able to bulldoze through even faster.

Steps_Descending

Steps_Descending

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

IN my pocket plane. Obviously!

Little Tom's Pocket Plane [THom]

Me/Mo

/signed

Woud make things slightly easier, so maybe a small rebalancing. But it would allow interupt to be potentially useful.

How about monks still get half casting time?

BlackSephir

BlackSephir

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

A/N

I would be all for making pve more challenging (as in challenging) and promoting balanced teams but I don't see that happening now. Maybe in GW3.

Quote:
/not signed. HM is already pretty easy
That is the point. It's easy because ANet went with lazy design. Instead of working on mobs AI and skillbars they just made them faster and tougher.
That kind of design is equivalent to making a boss which poses no threat but has 390000000000000 hit points.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer View Post
/not signed. HM is already pretty easy, no need to make it easier. If they were to change it, we'd basically have another version of NM, except that eles would be crappy damage dealers. In many areas HM is still pretty much NM anyway, especially because the healer builds are pretty much crap. Without the increased cast time for enemy monks, we'd be able to bulldoze through even faster.
In my PvE - enemy monks spend 4+ secs on their asses and then they die.
Because I know there is no chance of me interrupting them I don't even try.
It doesn't get easier than this.

Anduin

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

Ice Dragon Berserker Lodge

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagmaRed View Post
You want to turn Hard Mode into 'Slightly More Diffictul Mode'? No thanks. I agree they could have done things better for HM, but it is way to far from implementation to fix those mistakes, and although 'poor', HM is done fine. I'd have prefered them giving ALL monsters a secondary and more useful builds, along with more hard rezes. Something they did for GW:EN, but I know that won't happen as it takes a LOT of work to change builds and test them.
So, you'd rather they turned it into "Annoying Mode"?

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

Hard mode should be hard. It's interruption and disruption that needs to be buffed or rethought.

shoyon456

shoyon456

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2006

D/

If the AI actually learned from past battles... there wouldn't be a need for any monster buffs in HM, unless you want an uber HM that is.

drkn

drkn

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2009

Wroc??aw, Poland

Midnight Mayhem

Me/

Quote:
It's interruption and disruption that needs to be buffed or rethought.
+1
it's sins that have to be remade and rebalanced. it's discordway that has to be rebalanced - or just don't run it.

Quote:
Totally agreed,it means we have to rely on gimmicky builds such as discordway.
statements such as this one make me laugh. you have to do nothing here, you can play the game the way you like. i only run discord for certain areas because i'm bored with them, while i'm playing a balanced team designed solely by me, punish/shutdown pve mesmer. and i'm fine with it as it is.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Hmmm.... /signed.

Completely removing reactive interruption as a viable game mechanic just isn't good design, especially when you have 2 core classes designed around it.

If you really can't live with HM becoming a tiny bit easier, then
1. Give monsters HCT only for skills with cast time >=2sec.
2. Turn up the difficulty elsewhere to make up for it.

Kook~NBK~

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2005

A little chalet outside Drok's

Natural Born Killaz

/not signed. Wanna interrupt/shutdown the heavy hitting baddies? Set Gwen (or Norgu) up with the right build and lock her on. Easy peasy!

Or, Dazed is a wonderful effect to use on those super-heal spamming monks (and I think there's a skill called "epidemic" that will spread the love around.)

Bottom line is that there are more ways to win in HM than Sabway or Discordway. Spread your wings and FLY, little one.

El Perma Shadow

El Perma Shadow

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2009

Conspired Illuminated Experts (CLX)

A/

this is a bad idea, people have beaten it already in that mode suck it up and do some research, then go do it H/H

/not signed

Lakdav

Lakdav

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2008

Me/N

The point of this idea is that even if you dare to try interruption in HM, you are f**ked. The fast activation is good for punishment builds, but that is the least fun way to use a mesmer (I think they are the real concern here, as they have the most interrupt skills).

I think i know Upier enough to say that the biggest concern here is the lack of ways of having fun. Perfectly interrupting something is fun. Perfectly interrupting something that has 1/2sec cast time is even greater satisfaction. That is if being lucky satisfies you.

True its humanly impossible to go out in HM without any cast-time reducer skills in the hope of running an interrupt build. Should have more ways to be successful, have fun and get satisfaction in what we do. /signed on that part

But even if its a fantasy world, its not perfect. HM would be less hard. Beside that, in my experience the further and harder places you get, your choices of gameplay are deminishing. Everybody learns that when a party is looking for a SS or MM or 600 or 55hp or whatever kind of builds are most common at the time. Every game has that. You wont get to lvl99 in Diablo2 if you dont make the right chices and develop your character the right way. In GW no choice is permanent thnx heavens, but that stubborness to use the best ways remains.

uzumaki

uzumaki

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

GW

Me/

i like it the way it is, it's the only effective way to practice 0.5 interrupts on my mes, master of healing is just a pain in the ass lol.

smilingscar

smilingscar

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2007

Frontline Legion

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~ View Post
/not signed. Wanna interrupt/shutdown the heavy hitting baddies? Set Gwen (or Norgu) up with the right build and lock her on. Easy peasy!
I've seen heroes miss with interrupts in HM as well; enough times that I've given up on HM interrupts except special situations.

I'll /sign. The baddies are strong enough that it won't make much of a difference. It'll just open up more tactical options.

On a side note: does the decreased skill activation time stack with the increase attack rate for attack skills?

Marty Silverblade

Marty Silverblade

Administrator

Join Date: Jun 2006

This is just a problem that arised due to Anets laziness. If they actually made the AI a lot smarter (and not just pushed numbers up) then HM would be fine. This won't happen unless Anet redoes HM, which won't happen, so /notsigned.

Arkantos

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

Quote:
Yes, I am FULLY aware this would make the game easier.
Then you should be fully aware why this is a bad suggestion by itself.

The way they implemented difficulty in HM is bad, yes. However, in order to improve it, they'll have to actually give them good AI, give every single monster a full skill bar that is good, tweak a lot of mobs, etc. It's not going to happen.

Kook~NBK~

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2005

A little chalet outside Drok's

Natural Born Killaz

Quote:
Originally Posted by smilingscar View Post
I've seen heroes miss with interrupts in HM as well; enough times that I've given up on HM interrupts except special situations.
You have a point, and I only use Gwen to interrupt in a few select circumstances - Rit bosses with SR, a couple of Ele bosses, and that sort of thing. Usually she's good enough to get most jobs done. However, the Hero AI isn't always reliable to respond to enemy AI in the best way - I've caught her trying to use the wrong kind of interrupt on the wrong kind of skill on quite a few occasions.

And now that I've though about it a bit, when HM first came out I thought that A-Net missed a golden opportunity to make Mesmers more desireable for HM game play by the silly "Mesmers suck in PvE" crowd by cutting casting times by enemies.

I change my vote to /SIGNED.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

/signed for OP's reasons

And also because it will help kill off the Protective Spirit based farming builds - slower enemy attack and skill times will help make 55/330/600/etc builds take longer, and in at least the 330's case, probably make them near useless.

If we want to keep up the difficulty, just make the enemies' attribute levels higher so they have an even greater effect with the skills.

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~ View Post
/not signed. Wanna interrupt/shutdown the heavy hitting baddies? Set Gwen (or Norgu) up with the right build and lock her on. Easy peasy!
But I want to interrupt/shutdown.

AlsPals

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

Sellin hot stock tips for pro[fit]

Me/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk View Post
I facepalmed. Then facepalmed again.
Rofl. Yea, I gotta /sign, but its unlikely. HM was like bad freeware:Underperformed and included malicious scripts(loot scaling). Thanks to stat pumping, I run around at any given time in HM with a Shared burden/Arcane Conundrum spiritway setup that rolls HM...but not in a fun way. Its like you have to either have layers of defense while you pick away at creatures or rediculous offense ala Discordway or in my case Ural's Hammer/EBSOH comp stomps. You really cant just run any old build and expect to get through.

Eragon Zarroc

Eragon Zarroc

Atra estern?? ono thelduin

Join Date: Jan 2008

Madness Incarnate

[Duo]

W/P

meh, would just make HM easier, but it is kinda unrealistic that monsters get to cast faster at all. why have skill casting times when mobs don't have to obey them?

MagmaRed

MagmaRed

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Mar 2007

Our Crabs Know True [LOVE]

R/

My typical build on my Ranger and Necro (2 classes I use most for HM) takes none of the things most people in this topic say are needed to succeed in HM. I'll even give you the COMPLETE builds for my setup to show you that HM can be done without problems and not using the stuff most here say is needed.

Ranger:
Triple Shot
Dual Shot
Savage Shot
Distracting Shot
Asuran Scan
Conjure Frost/Flame
Glass Arrows
Summon Mursaat/Ice Imp

Necro:
Barbs
Insidious Parasite
Spiteful Spirit
Enfeeble
Rip Enchantment
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
Necrosis
Technobabble

Heroes I use are always Dunkoro, Gwen, and Livia (unless doing something that requires a specific hero like Jennur's Horde).

Dunkoro:
Ethereal Light
Dwayna's Kiss
Orison of Healing
Dismiss Condition
Cure Hex
Signet of Rejuvenation
Holy Haste
Unyielding Aura

Gwen:
Clumsiness
Wandering Eye
Tease
Power Drain
Power Return
Frustration
Inspired Hex
Restore Life/Resurrection Chant

Livia:
Animate Bone Minions
Animate Shambling Horror
Death Nova
Jagged Bones
Masochism/Blood of the Master
Protective Spirit
Aegis
Dark Bond

And the hench I take depends on which campaign. Eye of the North I use Lena, Zho, Herta, and Eve. Nightfall I take Kihm, Herta, Eve, and Sogolon. Factions I take Kai Ying, Eve, Daemon, Professor Gai, Redemptor Karl, Seagard Gita, Aeson, and Erys Vasburg depending on where I am. Prophecies I take Lina, Eve, Claude, Alesia, Dunham, Aiden, and Reyna depending on location and team size.

No melee, no Discord/Sabway, none of the needed skills mentioned in this topic, and no consumables. On rare occassions I'll use a Summoning Stone, but I usually forget to use them since I don't need them.

Daemon, Zho, Gwen, and Erys Vasburg all do fine with interrupting things for me. On my Ranger I don't focus on interrupts, but I manage to do enough with it for what I need. I don't see a problem with the current HM setup. I agree it wasn't done in the best way, but I don't think that the change you suggest will make it better.... just easier.

Tenebrae

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade View Post
This is just a problem that arised due to Anets laziness. If they actually made the AI a lot smarter (and not just pushed numbers up) then HM would be fine. This won't happen unless Anet redoes HM, which won't happen, so /notsigned.
Yes , like we all know HM is not "balanced" but the casting time issue is crazy. They should have made casting times to be the same and HM spells to have 30% more "effect" , for example :
- Hexes last 20% longer
- Nukes damage 30% more ( except bosses , they already have boosts )
- Heal for 20% HP
And so on .... you can still block , cripple melee foes but in HM interrupting casters is almost impossible , that part is not balance but i dont think they are going to do something about it.

If that matters /signed for a HM rebalance including casting times

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos View Post
Then you should be fully aware why this is a bad suggestion by itself.
The issue is that I don't see the increased skill activation speed being a decisive factor in making the game harder.
Increased speed makes just interrupting harder. Of course, nobody in their right mind would advocate interrupting as a viable tactic - quite simply, because killing foes is achieved so easily and death is the ultimate shutdown. Which basically means is that a game where interrupts aren't used really isn't that much harder (if at all) in HM DUE to the increased speed.

What reducing the speed would do is make interrupts usable. They still wouldn't be viable because you'd STILL achieve better results by just killing something or simply KDing them. But in a game where HM is easy enough for the better players to get though just with usable things - this would be sufficient.

Lifestyle

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2009

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisworld View Post
So...you automatically assume everything sucks and has no balance because a bunch of retards from PvX wiki run cookiecutterassassins? You need to get out there more my friend.
Waitwaitwait... PvE is balanced?

Captain Bulldozer

Captain Bulldozer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2008

Servants of the Dragon Flames [SODF]

I don't think the way anet implemented HM is really all that problematic in and of itself. The reason why many find HM "easy" is that after 4 years there are plenty of very knowledagble, skillful players out there. The more you know about the game, the easier it gets. You pick up on various strategies which exploit the AI of the foes regardless of how challenging the AI is designed. A human brain, even the pathetically atrophied brain of the average GW player, will eventually win out on any finitely designed fixed strategy of a computer game.

As for interrupts, I play a memser an awful lot in HM, and don't have a huge problem interrupting... but I also have a pretty solid connection. Plus there are skills like technobabble, "You move like a dwarf!" and Broadhead arrow to make the job easier. To those who would complain about mesmers being useless in HM because of it being harder to interrupt, I say blah blah blah. Faster cast and attack times also means skills like empathy and backfire trigger a lot more often, not to mention the fact that any damage a mesmer deals is armor ignoring, which puts them lightyears ahead of Elementalists in HM for example. A mesmer using reactive damage can utterly explode foes in HM.

I also don't consider something like discordway a gimmick. The fact is that HM often requires a team which is simultaneously strong in defense and offense. Discordway just happens to be one that heroes can run effectively. There are plenty of others that fit this idea, spiritway, sabway, even running an old school bonder in the right team.

So in short, if you find HM isn't enough of a challenge, consider that in some ways your addiction to GW is responsible, not necessarily something due to the game design. If you want a challenge, try building a setup that isn't widely used and adapt to make it work well.

Kook~NBK~

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2005

A little chalet outside Drok's

Natural Born Killaz

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuilan View Post
But I want to interrupt/shutdown.
Me too. (That's why I changed my mind about this)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk View Post
I facepalmed. Then facepalmed again.
And exactly where did I say that "no one plays mesmer?" Oh wait, I never said, or even implied any such thing. My main character is a MESMER -TYVM.

MithranArkanere

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

HM could have had better builds and monsters skills for monsters that don't have them like EotN monsters instead just buffs, and that's not something fixed, it could change.

If that's done then I won't mind this.

But as they are now, many monsters won't have anything else. Loof at Prophecies Hard Mode monsters. There are many with just 2..4 skills.

Winterclaw

Winterclaw

Wark!!!

Join Date: May 2005

Florida

W/

I always thought shutdown was more a pvp thing...

Does hard mode need improvement? Yes.
Does it need more than +stats for mobs? Yes.
Is anet going to do anything about it? No.

MithranArkanere

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

Well, there IS a 'monsters with obsolete builds" project on the wiki, but it deals with builds after skill changes, not with monsters with so pathetic builds that you can beat them in seconds in HM with just Flare and Aura of Restoration.

Arkantos

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

Quote:
/signed for OP's reasons

And also because it will help kill off the Protective Spirit based farming builds - slower enemy attack and skill times will help make 55/330/600/etc builds take longer, and in at least the 330's case, probably make them near useless.

If we want to keep up the difficulty, just make the enemies' attribute levels higher so they have an even greater effect with the skills.
Makes farming harder for 55/330/600 builds, makes the game easier for everyone else. Fair trade, right?

Also, big numbers doesn't make the game harder. The whole reason why hard mode fails is because ANet added challenge by making monsters hit harder and made them do everything faster. They still have the crappy AI, most of them still have crappy skill bars with less than 8 skills.



Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
The issue is that I don't see the increased skill activation speed being a decisive factor in making the game harder.
Increased speed makes just interrupting harder. Of course, nobody in their right mind would advocate interrupting as a viable tactic - quite simply, because killing foes is achieved so easily and death is the ultimate shutdown. Which basically means is that a game where interrupts aren't used really isn't that much harder (if at all) in HM DUE to the increased speed.

What reducing the speed would do is make interrupts usable. They still wouldn't be viable because you'd STILL achieve better results by just killing something or simply KDing them. But in a game where HM is easy enough for the better players to get though just with usable things - this would be sufficient.
It makes the game harder in the sense that enemies are going to be doing bigger damage in a shorter period of time in hard mode. It's crap, but unless ANet completely revamp hard mode to make it an actual challenge instead of monsters that hit harder and do everything faster, then it's not going to change. Getting rid of monsters decreased casting time without changing anything else is only going to make this ridiculously easy game even easier.

Axel Zinfandel

Axel Zinfandel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Northeastern Ohio

LaZy

P/W

PvE sucks right now for a single reason.

Anet when they made the game back in prophesies days made PvE, well, balanced in the fact that someone already said. It was like a sort of 'proving grounds' for PvP. PvP was their main focus, and the skill system, AI, ect was no doubt created WITH the ideal in mind of PvP over PvE.

Although it was a good idea on Anet's part to further seperate the play style of PvE from that of PvP, their biggest mistake in GW was assuming that they could work with their single system for both PvP and PvE. The Developers probably didn't see the distinction they do now in that a system and skills that make GW PvP the success it is/was, can't just be slapped to PvE with the expectation that it will be good as well.

As such, the PvP/PvE skill split came way, way too late, and isn't even being implemented to it's full potential, their idea for HM, a good one at first, proves to be a joke with the current skills out there (like Shadow Form). Anet, correct me if I'm wrong, has realized that their current game cannot handle what they want to do, so here comes GW2.


My point? PvE was skrewed from the moment Anet thought that slapping a PvP style game and skills in a PvE atmosphere would be a good idea.

Sankt Hallvard

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer View Post
To those who would complain about mesmers being useless in HM because of it being harder to interrupt, I say blah blah blah. Faster cast and attack times also means skills like empathy and backfire trigger a lot more often, not to mention the fact that any damage a mesmer deals is armor ignoring, which puts them lightyears ahead of Elementalists in HM for example. A mesmer using reactive damage can utterly explode foes in HM.
Consider that those foes have a better AI. Let's say they stop casting when hit with backfire, waiting for their monk to clean it. Maybe they pre-veil? The caster with SS will move away from his flock and cast through it, pause if his health drops too much and he detects his team taking pressure. The warrior with empathy will do the same etc. Now THAT would be HM, increasing numbers just makes the "farm" take longer.

Quote:
I also don't consider something like discordway a gimmick. The fact is that HM often requires a team which is simultaneously strong in defense and offense. Discordway just happens to be one that heroes can run effectively. There are plenty of others that fit this idea, spiritway, sabway, even running an old school bonder in the right team.
I agree with you on this. Sabway, racway, discordway what have you are all fair, balanced builds. I have a much bigger problem with the SF sin tank or the 600 setup etc. If foes moved away from pbaoe or stopped attacking through SS this whole idea of an invincible tank would just fade away. What's the point of a SF sin when the foes will just ignore him. Whenever I run into a bozo like this in pvp I just ignore him and wipe the rest of his team. One can only hope that the steroid monsters in pve will one day catch on.