Something wicked this way comes...

Couple of things that struck me:

1. When things die, they goto the UW.. (fact)
2. Apparently when things die in the UW, they pass into the void, feeding Dhuum (assumption)

3. Dhuum got replaced by Grenth (with help of reapers, sort of UW revolt) mainly because of Dhuum's 'unjust' treatment of the dead.. (fact)
4. Grenth isnt realy treating the ghost in the UW any better, by letting mortals in to farm the ghosts like sheep; and with doing so, sending them into the void (see 2) ... (assumption)
5. So Dhuum might even have 'ghosts' from the UW side helping him, for atleast under the reign of Dhuum you knew what you were facing, under grenth's reign one is left to the will of the mortal (further speculation), ak just like Grenth got help from the Reapers to defeat Dhuum...

6. Strenght of Dhuum?, when the gods defeated Abaddon, Grenth got the power of Ice, Abaddon remained the god of secrets locked away in the realm of torment ; When 'we' defeated Abaddon, kormir became the god of Truth.. (fact ..the remaining power of Abaddon remains unknown (if any)
7. When Dhuum got defeated by Grenth, Grenth became the ruler of the UW & god of death; Dhuum remained the god of the End (the more resolute conclusion of death) and the ruler of the Void (which by my views represents 'the nothingness') ... he is also locked away, and on the verge of breaking free...
8. We are to expect a legendary battle if we get to fight him, im expecting we will only find ways to strengthen the enchantments on his prison, but like said the comming of the end is inevitable, which sorta brings me to 9.

Personal speculations:
9. Dhuum's comming, or the comming of the End, represents (to me atleast) the end of GW1 and the comming of GW2, meaning as much as, allot of the characters will mostlikely move on to GW2, leaving GW1 an empty and desolate place; true the killing in the UW will stop as ppl move on to GW2, but it might allready be to late, GW1 (the past) is surely to become a forgotten place, most characters will pass into a void of nothingness, with only a few to be remembered by a few (remember for this that Dhuum did not condemn all spirits to nothingness) ...
10. Something i wondered about, is the excistance of an Underworld in GW2, perhaps there isnt one, meaning, the UW has to be locked off somewhere in the past; this would mean that Dhuum will come and WIN, reclaiming his reign over the underworld and sealing it off for entry by humans.. Grenth would remain a god of necromancy, but without a thrown in the underworld, or a sealed off one...

These two are incorrect. When you enter the Underworld your not fighting the Spirits of people who died in Tyria. Your actually protecting them in most cases. When Dhuum first attacked the Underworld and trapped the Reapers, creatures such as the Grasping Darkness began preying upon spirits.

The things that are dying and giving energy to Dhuum are native to the Underworld, things such as the demonic guardians, the Aaxte, the ghostly Smites and the Coldfire Nights ect. The only Spirits that are fought are those who, thanks to Dhuums demons, have been placed in the wrong area of the Underworld, and due to them being unstable, attacking the other Spirits.

So Grenth isnt mistreating any spirits - on the contrary Dhuums attack on the Underworld is what caused the spirits to be attacked in the first place.

1. Unless there is a special case - like with Shiro and Ural.
2. I would disagree, I think that, normally, spirits and creatures who die in the Rift (which I believe the Realms of the Gods are in) will return to the Mists, to be created into something else - as something cannot be created from nothing in physics.

I think the Void is an "alternate death" - a location which souls of creatures go to when killed in specific ways that would send them to the Void and prevents reuse of the energy of the soul.

Free Runner's correct on points 3 and 4 (read Reaper of the Forgotten Vale's and Reaper of the Bone Pits' quests), so I'll pass it.

We actually do not know if Dhuum is still a god.

I disagree with the "end of GW1" - as Anet has repeatedly said they'll continue content updates and will keep GW1 servers running after GW2's release. We also can safely assume lore will continue in GW1 as long as Linsey is working on the Live Team because, as she said, she "f***ing LOVE lore".

While facing Dhuum seems to be a sure thing now, I doubt he'll win. We have confirmation of Grenth in GW2 (Grenth is in the GW2 Artbook). Also, with the Underworld being the main location where spirits appear at, I would doubt that the gods would let Dhuum rule the place, as that would mean there would be no death since their spirits would, most likely, be destroyed upon arriving into a realm controlled by Dhuum.

Thats human spirits that are friendly, i saw allot of unfriendly spirits too ? and also what looked like animal spirits (esp. smites) atleast im a firm believer that animal spirits goto the UW too if we slay them in Tyria, unless ofcourse they goto melandru's realm, which unfortunatly we have no access too...

True they said this, but i would assume it to be rather empty at times due to ppl being in GW2 and perhaps not care that much for GW1, in that view those 'hero' wont return to Tyria GW1 and are 'gone' forever, in a more figuratly way of speaking (hope i spelled that right) ... and i forgot about those pics in the artbook, you are right, so 10 is a bit off :P

So in a more scematic way, 'life & death'-cycle on Tyria woud look a bit like:

Live
|
Death (to underworld)
|
Life in UnderWorld
|
Death in Underworld (either)
/''''''''''''''''' '''''' '''''' ''''' '\
Mists, , , , , , , , , , Void (The end?)
/
Life

A lot of natural creatures there are hostile to us, it isn't Grenth's will that we kill Aatxes (excluding the Vengeful Aatxes) and other natural creatures there - which may include Smites, and even some Dryders (as they may be created in the Spawning Pools).

I would disagree, I've seen a lot of people say that they will not move on because either they cannot afford new games, they cannot afford a new computer to play GW2 on (that would be assuming GW2 requires specs they don't have), they do not have time to play a whole new game, and/or because they have friends and guildies who will not be playing GW2 but will continue to play GW1.

So I do believe there will be plenty of people remaining - though, probably only 1/10th of what there currently is (which is still a fair number, mind you!)

More or less, agreed. Though I'd have to add a "death in the Mortal Realms" stage - as we see spirits in Tyria.

Unfriendly human spirits, like i mentioned , are fought. But the reason for this is because Grenths Reapers became imprisoned. This caused spirits who were angry about their death to go to the place where gentle spirits went.

Other Spirits are the smites - they share the same model as Scarabs. While its not clear what they are, its never hinted that they are animal spirits. It looks more like they are guardians of the ice wastes. Grenth cant have random people strolling in and out of the underworld, which is probably why the Aaxte, Smites and Coldfires seem to guard different areas, never attacking the dead unless they are forced to by Dhuums minions.

The reason for opening the Underworld to Tyria in the first place, was due to Dhuums forces trapping the Reapers and taking it over, causing Grenth to open it up. The guardians seem to act as a barrier to make sure only the worthy can get through them.

Actually, the impression I got was that pretty much anything that died in the Underworld had its soul go to Dhuum. That's what the Mobstopper quests were about - killing even the skeletons of Dhuum would actually strengthen Dhuum, so instead we beat them into the undead equivalent of unconsciousness and stuck them inside a solid piece of candy for all eternity.

Another thing that strikes me is... How do we know that the "final death" that Dhuum presents is actually the removal of the spirit's energy from the cosmos? Even with the reference to the Void and such, the power actually seems more like it's just going straight to Dhuum, just like some of the lesser entities that use spirits for power.

In fact, one crazy thought that struck me... what if Dhuum isn't entirely in the wrong? From the perspective of a spirit, being destroyed by Dhuum would be a bad thing - but if theories that the Mists are powered by recycling spirits into the Mists are correct, Dhuum may have been the entity responsible for making sure that this energy is recycled properly. While Grenth means well, his allowing spirits to continue to live may, in the long run, be threatening the multiverse, as more and more of its energy gets locked into the form of dead spirits.

I never said they wouldnt. I'm saying that the things that are dying are the creatures of the Underworld, not the spirits of the vale ect. I have no doubts that anything killed in the Underworld would give energy, but in most cases the things that are dying (To things like the infamous UWSC which seems to have been recognised in the lore) are the guardians.

I wouldn't say their souls go to Dhuum, actually, just that their death (somehow) empowers Dhuum. It may be the passing of souls into another plane of existence (i.e., the Mists and/or Void) which empowers such.

It is an assumption, as what else could be a true final death than the removal of one's existence?

I wouldn't say that Grenth is all for every soul living. I think he wishes to separate those who deserve to have an afterlife, and those who don't - hence the reason for things like the Realm of Torment (i.e., separation of spirits), and having us kill spirits instead of either just letting spirits kill each other or the like.

Complete destruction of the personality.

If there's no afterlife for us in the real world, then dying here would be true final death - even if the raw materials that our body was composed of remains and can be recycled through the ecosystem. The same may be true for the final death Dhuum offers - the personality of the spirit is destroyed, but their spiritual energy remains.

Well, in that aspect, the simple idea of recycling energy from destroyed spirits would simply be a true death.

Indeed. The point I was leaning towards was that Grenth is allowing spirits to hang around. Now, the "spirit recycling" theory assumes that there's some sort of system ensuring that enough spirits get returned to keep the multiverse running...

...but what if that system was Dhuum, and that by allowing spirits to survive (possibly indefinitely, if not destroyed by something), Grenth is himself risking the balance of the multiverse?

A new quest, which isn't completeable yet, but! We know the name of Mad King Thorn's home: "Mad Realm"

And it seems we'll indeed see Dhuum in a few days (according to Regina, the second part of the quest cannot be done for a few days).

Well now that the quest is completeable and someone was kind enough to take screenshots of Dhuum...I forgot what I was going to say. /doh >.< ...Oh well I'm just happy to finally have a nice conclusion to this quest chain.

I am saddened... Dhuum is a dervish through and through - scythe, typical Dervish clothing, Dervish model even.


I was really hoping for him having an insectoid look. I have yet to complete the quest, so I don't know of any special dialogue or anything - what I've noted through screenshots:

• Reapers fight (and die) in the battle. They are in allies in the party menu.
• Ice King Frozenwind is present but isn't with the reapers (he is shown after Dhuum's defeat).
• Dhuum starts as a green NPC (implying dialogue).
• We go into the Hall of Judgement (and it looks interesting inside!)
• Dhuum is not killed, but put back into a dormant state (represented by /sit and various green barrier-like images around him).
• Like Abaddon, he is huge - but based on the pictures, about half the size of Abaddon.

You gotta admit, Dhuum makes a pretty awesome looking Dervish.

Although this does bring up a question or two in my mind. The obvious Dervish/Reaper viewpoint is shown here, but I do recall (if I'm not wrong) that Abaddon was a Dervish himself before being overthrown. This is odd in my mind because none of the current gods have the main proffesion, (though some do span several gods, I'm mostly thinking of the Dervish's Avatars. Their Emotes are of certain gendered proffesions.)

The second question this brings to mind is, if Abaddon was not a Dervish, why do Dervishes Model themselves after Dhuum? If we assume that Grenth had defeated Dhuum a long time ago, and it's unknown what Dhuum looks like, we could just assume that it was coincidence, though I find that hard to believe. So why do Dervishes choose to resemble Dhuum? Only thing I can think of at the moment is that Dhuum doesn't have a set form, and chose to make himself look more like a reaper in a way that makes him look a lot like a Dervish.

But seriously, anyone got any ideas on this?

I'm not exactly certain myself on that matter, but it does raise the question of if the hooded pillars seen in the Crystal Desert and Vabbi are in the image of Dhuum. After all, nothing says that his existence was wiped from history.

Interesting observation...

Could it be that Abaddon took up the Dervish mantle after Dhuum's defeat, in a similar manner that it is theorised that Grenth claimed Water Magic after Abaddon's fall?

'Course, this raises the question of why Abaddon is depicted as a Dervish rather than whatever he was before Dhuum's fall - unless, of course, Grenth predates (or was a contemporary of) Abaddon.

Anet needed a 3d model. So methinks they reskinned the Dervish. -Turned out really great.

In seriousness, it was only coincidence a Dervish models after Dhuum.

I think Dhuum only uses a Dervish model due to the Grim Reaper look (which I highly dislike seeing how Grenth also has the Grim Reaper look - come on, be a bit more original with the gods of death's looks).

So I don't think there is a lore connection between the Dervish and Dhuum - as Grenth at least overthrew Dhuum in the year 48 BE (if the scripture dates are truthful), and Dervishes were founded during the Shattered Dynasty Era (583 AE - 640 AE). A 600+ year gap.

Except for the lack of any mention by any Tyrian ever... Surely Dhuum would have been brought up during the Tombs invasion, Dragon Festival invasion, or Nightfall aside from by the Forgotten...

Well if you look in the Underworld, we got Dhuum, Grenth, and the Reapers. They all pretty much look the same because they are all from the same place.

Now if the Reapers were created in the Underworld, this brings up and interesting idea; that maybe Dhuum created Grenth, as a follower of sorts. (Unless the Reapers are ghosts of people once alive, who just got promoted somehow)



I meant to go look at these and a pic, but I was going to ask you around where they are, cause I can't remember off the top of my head any statue that looks like that.

I don't think Grenth was created by Dhuum - and besides, we don't know if Grenth even originates from the Underworld. On the Reapers, I think they were powerful spirits who aided Grenth, and were rewarded with more power - as the Reaper of the Twin Serpent Mountains says that Grenth gave him power over spirits, and the reapers share the same look at phantoms, which are known to be simple spirits.

Sunspear Sanctuary, Lair of the Forgotten, Forum Highlands for Elona; Augury Rock, Dunes of Despair (in the mission), Prophet's Path, and Diviner's Ascent at least for Crystal Desert.

That's what the official histories say. Do we believe them?

For a profession that didn't exist until five centuries after Abaddon was imprisioned, there are a lot of ties between Abaddon and the Dervish profession. At least one concept art shows Abaddon with a scythe. Dervishes are seen with similar frequency to other professions among Abaddon's followers, when if they didn't exist when Abaddon was imprisoned you'd expect the majority of Margonites at least to have already adopted other professions. One of the forms of the Apocrypha is a Dervish. And after Abaddon's fall, the profession of the Facet of Spirit is a Dervish - implying a connection between the power Kormir inherited and the profession.

With all this evidence, it seems to me more likely that the Dervish profession may have been suppressed along with all other knowledge that was connected to Abaddon - but when it was rediscovered during the Shattered Dynasty era with the ties between Abaddon and the profession (apparently) severed, the gods allowed it to flourish, parcelling up the Dervish's attributes in a similar way to how the Elementalist's are spread between the Five. And if Abaddon did have the patronage of the Dervish profession before his fall, it stands to reason that it's possible that Abaddon inherited it in turn from Dhuum.

Even looking at the skills, one can see that they are pretty evenly distributed around the four gods, which makes me wonder how Abaddon's dervishes worked? Obviously the Margonites used regular skills and not monster skills because that would be too much work to make a ton of new skills, but otherwise how could they use skills that are connected to the other gods.

Makes me wonder if the original dervishes form skills would turn them into the margonites we see now, of course that doesn't make sense because they turned liked that after Abaddon was outcast, but it would be a cool idea either way. (GW2 Form anyone :P)

Last thing that wonder now, is if Grenth got the power over Ritualists from Dhuum or from Abaddon. Now the latter doesn'tmake sense at first, but seeing how Dhuum was more intrested in permenatly destroying everything, instead of turning them into spirits, I can't quite believe he supported the ritualist prof.

This is the only case which I disagree with. Not only is there no support for Grenth taking water from Abaddon (that is all player speculation, for instance take the Scriptures of Grenth - he is shown having ice quality right there, and that is dated 48 BE), but there is no knowledge of how the powers of one god would move from one to another without killing the gods - which seems to be just a one to one scenario (mind you, no knowledge doesn't mean it cannot happen, but the only support is a speculative case which contradicts lore).

Just because one god uses a scythe and hood (by the way, we see multiple Mesmers, Necromancers and Assassins with hoods), and another god that has potential links linked to a profession (Abaddon also has links to the Paragon profession), doesn't mean that one took the whole profession from one to another.

In fact, the only thing which links Dhuum to the Dervish profession is the looks and weapon - no dervish like skills - and the looks and weapon is just a reference to the Grim Reaper. Along with this, the dervish profession shows no link to death or Dhuum in any way shape or form.

Why do the Ritualists need to come from any god? Or any profession for that matter. Could Grenth not have just created the Ritualists? Could the Ritualists not have sprouted up in Cantha on their own? Afterall, the Ritualist profession predates magic.

Linking them to Dhuum makes no sense, as Dhuum dislikes undead and resurrection (limited death magic anyone?), and it would only make sense that the reasoning is that he hated the return of spirits to the mortal realm - so summoning spirits from the spirit realm as Ritualists do wouldn't make any sense.

Also, where does it say Dhuum was interested in permanently destroying everything? That was a false interpretation from his names. The reason why death would be changed forever is due to the lack of undeath and resurrection. Death would be permanent, no take-backs. The names like the Ender of All, the Omega Death, Death Inevitable, etc. can be linked to this one fact.

The only names which we have yet an explanation for is "The Mouth at the Edge of Darkness" and "The Voice in the Void" to be honest.

Yeah that's what I meant.

I'm confused by what you mean about rits predating magic, do you mean the practice or the full fledge ritualism we see today's Rits do?

Also I got to say, that though hoods are semi-common, Hoods + Robes + Scythes is pretty much limeted to dervishes. The outfit is supposed to show their humility to the gods right? And yet it matches straight up with a previous (I'm hesitant to say evil) god. I just find it odd.

Also just noticed this. Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's just the picture, but in the following picture it kind of looks like the skull face is a mask that Dhuum is wearing, and you can see a human like chin underneath the mask's teeth.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/gw...d/d9/Dhuum.jpg

If so, what does that mean? I hav absolutly no idea. Does kind of remind me of Grenth though. (body of a man, visage of a beast)

To what extent is unknown, but the profession predates magic and then had its own magic powered by ancestors.

Honestly, I think Dhuum's appearance is just to mimic the Grim Reaper. The Dervishes mimic real life's dervishes (if you take out the scythe).

I don't see a chin.

Having just come from the epicness that was the Dhuum fight, i managed to snag screens of the room and Dhuum himself afterwards.

First of all Dhuum (and yeah he doesnt seem to have a chin and that isnt a mask):


Dhuum in his sleeping state:


The room:


A pillar holding the room up. Holds the same Eye marking that many other UW structures have:


One of the 7 statues which i'm guessing resemble the Reapers (who are situated just infront of said statue)


A Reapers platform. These made me curious as the Reapers never leave them.


The same platform. It appears to have pipes comign from it making me wonder if the Reapers channel energy into them:


As for Dhuum himself his speech is very strange. Other than showing his obvious love for yelling (Caps Lock) he talks about himself in third person and in a very blunt manner. I was however wondering if he had this way of speaking due to having just woke up. It gave me the feeling he was a primitive god rather than civilised like the others are said to be.

The way the battle goes its obvious that we havent seen the last of him.

Ahh, much better pictures, thanks Freerunner. So yes, it was me/the pic.

Dhuum doesn't seem to have a lower jaw. Interesting.



As for the whole third person thing, the only thing I can think of besides what Freerunner said is that Dhuum's form is less of a God, and more of a force. This may make little sense when I try to explain but I'll try anyways.

The quotes seem to make sense if you think of Dhuum as a force instead of a single entity. Maybe Dhuum does not have a true physical form, but instead forms a body based on his surroundings (ie the Reapers and statues of Grenth) to fight the heroes, also if he grows stronger by each death, maybe those "deaths" become a part of him. "WITH EVERY DEATH, DHUUM GROWS STRONGER!" and "HOW CAN YOU HOPE TO VANQUISH DEATH ITSELF?" (though the other obvious interpatation on those lines is, well, obvious.

The only thing he says that contradicts that idea is: "DHUUM LAUGHS AT YOUR PATHETIC ATTEMPTS TO HARM HIM. HA HA!" Which unless they are talking about Dhuums form at the time, doesn't work well with the rest.

Either way, it's just a theory.

Personally, I am just thinking that Dhuum is a bit loony from a multi-hundred year solitude. Most humans go insane after a few month.

I'd have to agree probably insane and has developed quite a large ego during the time he's been locked away.

after being isolated for a lengthy period of time, humans begin to talk to themselves and can sometimes use their own name in the conversations they have. even if someone finds them, it can still be a habit that is never broken. i imagine the same could be true for gods that don't have anyone to talk to.

True, although while Grenth may not have actually taken the portfolio, he certainly seems to have taken over patronage of Water Elementalists. Which is fair enough, since most Water spells actually produce ice and cold - but not all of them.

Interestingly, not the same four as control the Dervish attributes...

There are two explanations, really. The first is that the skills (apart from avatars) that are named for a particular deity are just named such because that's what humans call them, and that those skills don't actually rely on calling on that deity's power (this argument could apply to all professions, really), while avatars could have been something that developed later... or even be something Abaddon allowed when he still got on well with the others.