Infuse Health

For those of you who didn't get the memo, Ether Renewal Elementalists are the best healers and protters in the game, bar none. They're so much better than monks its ridiculous.

Normally, the huge heal, 1/4 sec cast, and 0 recharge of Infuse Health is balanced out by the 10 energy cost and the fact that it makes the caster lose half their health.

However, ER's ability to gain health and energy per enchantment each time a spell is cast completely nullifies both of these weaknesses (in fact, ER eles actually gain energy from Infusing). And if they ever need health themselves, they can simply cast a spell other than Infuse and they'll be brought right back to full.

Combine this with the infinite energy offered by ER (which allows ER eles to spam more prots than a monk could ever dream of), and what you're left with is a heal/prot build so broken that it leaves monks useless for anything besides condition and hex removal.

So, I suggest Infuse Health be given a recharge time of 8 seconds. Most monks would never use the skill more often than that (due to the energy cost and health sac), so it shouldn't hurt them. However, it will remove the ability of ER eles to outheal monks (since they can't fit multiple heals on their bars due to requiring so many enchantments to fuel ER).

- But then elementalists will be useless!
No they won't, because ER eles will still have the ability to spam more prots than a monk could ever hope to. Monks will be the best healers, and Eles will be the best protters.

- Who cares? Monks are good enough!
True. But then again, mending wammos are also "good enough" in PvE. Doesn't change the fact that there are better alternatives. Monks were designed to be the best healers, and that's what they should be. Otherwise, why even have them in the game?

You really think Eles heal better than a monk?

change split between pve/pvp

you sir, are retarded.


Obviously you have never done any high end area or you would realize that monks infuse more than once every 8 seconds.


please stop posting.

This. ERs will be able to spam something useful no matter what. PS and SB alone are enough to nullify most damage, and what's left can be mopped up by a pre-prot (Life Bond) or a spammable active prot like RoF. Nerfing Infuse really hurts Monks more than ERs.

Infuse Health isn't even the most important skill in the ER-Infuse bar, I've completed many HM dungeons and missions playing it and often didn't need to cast Infuse even once! The infinite spam of prots was more than enough to keep everyone from dying.

Just change Ether Renewal to only give Health and Energy when Elementalist skills are used. Let it even keep using non-Elementalist enchantments for determining how much health and energy are gained.

Also, I Infuse often while Monking in HM. I wouldn't bring the skill anymore with a recharge of anything more than 2 seconds.

I'm glad to find that many other people are agreeing about the effectiveness of Infuse on a Monk in PvE. Though no builds on PvX have it, I think it's one of the strongest weapons in the Monk arsenal. The build I run most closely resembles a GvG WoH Infuser. Modified in several ways, of course.

ER is not as over powered as you think.
1. If ER goes down, your team get's in huge trouble for a good 30 seconds.
2. No condition or hex removal. If your physicals are pounded by blind, to bad.
3. Spamming a spell that leaves you at 50% health makes you the prime target of any PvE foe.

I'm not sure about you, with it's strength it has it's major weaknesses. Unlike perma if he dies you team should be fine, if the ER dies your party loses their bonds.

I'd say kill off ER.

Only if perma goes with it

Oh, beyond any doubt. And maybe we can get a message in the login screen saying: "Public Service Announcement. Tanking is a terrible idea in Guild Wars, stop suggesting the group find a tank."

And maybe ArenaNet will stop by my house with a cake baked to look like Grenth.

I should stop telling myself these wonderful ideas ;_;

Saw this thread coming a mile away. Better get used to seeing ER's because they are getting heavy use in UW right now. I don't know why it's so cloak and dagger either, like this is some huge secret. I've got no personal issue with them but if you don't think infinite energy on demand is a bad idea then slap yourself. They make Soul Reaping look pathetic.

Am I the only one who thinks it's great to have more than one profession be great heal/protters?

I mean, it's nicer to have than an Ogden hero who Healing Breezes and Heal Party's till his energy bar is endlessly 0.

Most ER Infuse builds lack rez and condition/hex removal. They can also be stripped. No real reason to nerf anything.

I really agree on that its nice that several profession can do the healing/protting thingy, so KILLING ER is a bad idea. Making it on par with other options = good idea.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb.../Ether_renewal

Thats my idea on how to nerf ER. Nerfing infuse could alos be a good idea, make it a pve only nerf, set the energy to 5 and recharge to 2-8.

Dont limit variety; dont nerf stuff to hell, dont make certain stuff the only viable choice.

itt: bonding = pre-protting

Btw, when playing with H/H, using infuse rapidly really messes up their AI (they drop all their prots/heals on you)

If you think warriors should also be on par with elementalists at range damage, sure.

cake: Culian has a good point. And warriors with spears deal more than ele damage at range.
If you think profession should be limited to their stereotypical uses, you should think monk, sin and ele tanks are blasphemy too.

warriors with spears are terrible, and tanking shouldnt exist

cake: Culian has a good point. And warriors with spears deal more than ele damage at range.
If you think profession should be limited to their stereotypical uses, you should think monk, sin and ele tanks are blasphemy too.

The "it can be stripped" argument doesn't apply in PvE unless every monster has enchant removal and actively seeks important enchantments to rip off.

If you're using ER correctly, it won't go down, because you'll have cover enchantments.

If you're an ER ele and you ever need health, you just cast anything except ER and you're back to full. And let's not even get into all those enchantments on you.

Condition/Hex Removal is the only reason to play a monk. But do you really think the lack of that balances out a 300+ HP heal that has no recharge and costs no energy, while being able to spam more prots than a monk?

Or maybe, just maybe, I've never played as a healer in a high-end area. Not all of us are fans of that style of play.

I agree that would be a better idea, but I believe it's been suggested before (though I couldn't find the thread), and I think there's a rule against reposting old ideas.

eles are useless atm. even ritualists find a group recently with SoS or splinter barrage.

OP is saying the hench monks aren't good enough to finish most areas in GW?

When playing pve with heroes & henchmen, I normally set up the heroes and myself as damage dealers and just bring hench monks.

There's a reason EProd and Renewal were once killed.
The revival didn't bring anything good with it.

No, I'm saying that ER healers are overpowered and need to be nerfed, because they're so much better than monks that there's little reason to ever use a monk.

How's that?

True, most areas aren't strip heavy, but they exist. That's not something to be ignored if you're a good player.

Ah well and having to survive 30 secs with 100 energy to spare is such a pain...
Just use prott and infuse like a normal monk would do and wow, you cam cast without ER up

if it happens again just stay back and learn to cover

Ele nukers are terrible, and i dont mind it that way to be honest.
Im still all for nerfing ER, without killing it.

Since this thread actually is about ERs and not infuse, lets talk about them instead.

As i see it, the main problem is that they can spam infuse AND maintain a fack load of bonds, while beeing super resistant to damage at the same time.

My favorite nerf for ER would be that whenever you cast a non ele spell your energy is set to 0 (and you lose all bonds) though this happens at skill ACTIVATION, on skill completion you get the energy you normally get, enabling you to still spam infuse, without being able to maintain bonds. This also means that getting a skill interupted because you get KDed or whatever would make your energy drop to 0 at once.

If people are dying, something's wrong. Besides, rezzes are better on midliners, because the backline can't afford to stop doing their job to rez.

Cover enchantments.

Condition and hex removal are the only things a monk can do better than an ER healer. Is that really an acceptable fate for the monk class? I don't think so.

Find somewhere where enemies put out a lot of heavy pressure in the form of heavy degen, lots of small packets, hexes, conditions, whatever.
Try to counter all of that stuff gettting under PBond/Spirit or Spirit Bond with Infuse.

posting in a troll thread

People, its nothing to discuss; ER> monk. It needs to be nerfed, but not killed. Come up with good suggestions how you can nerf it, and no smiters boon ideas, like reverting it.

Monks still excel at party healing with HB and UA as well as cleaning, and they can bring more tools in their box.

ER is about to become meta, lets not let it become the only valid option.

1. OP's suggestion is retarded. Infuse is a vital skill for PvP, so any change would necessitate a skill split (which a-net is still tryign to avoid as much as possible). Moreover, it would completely destroy Infuse for PvE (and completely destroying skills is something that should be avoided as much as possible).

2. While ER eles outperform monks in many important contexts, they don't completely dominate them. Monks still have better party healing ability and barspace for removal and smallprot. When those things matter, monks become more attractive. Also, deep enchant strips are a big problem for ER.

3. The fact that ER eles are doing particularly well in ONE ZONE seems to be getting too much attention and skewing the debate. Yes, it just so happens that ER does really well in the zone that just so happens to be the newest point of interest. Don't overgeneralize from that. Many other zones it handles just as well; some not so much.

4. I'm reasonably sure the current state of ER is a conscious choice. A-net had to know what the result would be when they buffed ER so insanely.

5. If you really want to take away ER ele's ability to Infuse so effectively, simply take away or lower the health gain from ER. They will have to slow down their Infuse spam to regain enough hp to heal effectively.

6. I'm not so sure that nerfing ER by buffing monks might not be the best course of action. Even before ER came along, they were being displaced by X/Rt. My personal favorite solution would be:
7. While I'm at it: The real, real deep fundamental problem with ER eles has nothing to do with ER. The problem is the damage-capped-at-a-percentage mechanic in Prot Spirit/Prot Bond/Shelter. Whenever it can be used effectively, the result is overpowered. Doesn't matter whether it's done via ER today, or the original Ritlord build back in factions, or the original 55 build back in prophecies. The even worse problem is that, as Izzy said long ago, the damage-capped-at-a-percentage mechanic is so vital to PvP that it can't be touched; and since then the devs have power-crept the PvE content so much that it's vital there too. Can't leave it without leaving OP builds in the game, but can't remove it without making content unplayable. What's a-net supposed to do? I suppose leaving the OP stuff in is the least bad choice they can make. (And, yes, I'm aware that the "correct" solution is to remove the OP stuff and fix the monsters at the same time, but we all know there's no chance of a game-wide monster overhaul ever happening.)

ok heres what we do cuz of overpowered skills we nerf it by 9/10 so if it lasts 100 seconds origionally make it last 10 if it heals for 200 make it heal for 20 what a good idea =) well if you dissagre stop complaining things should be nerfed (o and mult the recharge and energy costs by 5)

The game already has counters to dependency on enchants and spamming which I think prevent ER from being abused in a pvp context. Knockdowns, migraine, frustration, distracting shot, and distraction for example.

Additionally, I think saying that ER > monk in pve is an overgeneralization based on specific scenarios which involve heavy damage pressure and enemies who don't strip enchants or disable skills.

Agrees with ^ totally!

A learned poster once said :P (and i paraphrase, due to bad memory and lazyness :P) ER infusers are a quantum leap in monking. In the area of 'stopping shit blow up and get wtf pwnd!'

Damn right they are! People dont realise they dont handle as well as a monk, small packets of damage, pressure and clean up! (oh yeah..im repeating posts :P)

ER needs toning down a little tho i agree, been THAT far ahead of anything anyone else can do is a touch too much. Not a huge nerf, but enough to slow them down a little and bring themback in line... MORE options for the same roles on different classes IS GOOD tho.

But knowing ANet it will get Ether renewaled (see what i did there? ) or left as it is...rarely any middle ground!

Wait until this gets a PvX team template, then it might be worthwhile discussing options. Not enough people even seem to be aware this is in use in the UW and it's not skewing any debate to point it out. The overwhelming majority of the shrieking over SF revolved around the exact same zone, including participation from the OP...coincidence? Elnore is right, this will become the new meta down there or something very close to it. Given that this is much more conducive to group play and more forgiving to profession selection is that such a bad thing?

/yawn

Ow wait you said something?

/not signed