Yeah... Why is PUG Meta so rubbish anyway? All the new builds, with PvE skills, etc... Yet, for some reason as soon as you enter a team of randoms for the Zaishen Mission or a HM dungeon or UW; the builds turn a bit mental...
PUG META (As far as I'm aware of)
1. Defy Pain WAMMO TANKZ0rZZz
2.Elementalist searing flamez nukarz.
3.SoS spirit spammer.
4. Healer's Boon/UA monks. (Probably the newest thing to happen to PUGs, before it was Life Sheath and WoH.)
5.Spare monk, RoJ smiter. (Whatever happened to the "if you have a spare monk, they can go Life Barrier bonding")
Critscythe sin.
Barrage splints0r ranger.
Spiteful spirit/other curses necro or an MM occasionally. (though the pug MM builds suck)
The above builds are, for Hard Mode, are.... Mediocre at best.
How can we change the way the majority of players mindlessly think? From the beginning of the game, this was the best way. Now the people who have been playing from the start still follow this way of Tank and Spank; along with the players who came from WoW or whatever else other MMOs.
Now we have so many better builds and more organised/synergy-based team builds. Why the hell can't pugs run anything good? We were all pugs once, until we became known; which makes me wonder what makes us different. Are they really just idiots/French?
Well, for an example, my Meta is as follows, for an 8man team:
ER bond/infuse spammer (People are still trying to work out why these>monks. Those people are known as PUGs sadface)
ER secondary Bond/infuser
4x Heavy DPS assassins, warriors, dervish, ranger or Paragon.(That can also spam SY)
1x Mark of Pain Nuker/OoV-SoH maintainer.
Cleaner or MB if required.
If not an SoS spirit Spammer is still the only thing I would keep.
The above could easily become Meta, the builds are very flexible, and almost anyone can join in. A mesmer spamming EVAS' can replace a physical.
But guyz... Can we see more of this!? It's incredible and can rape an area in 5x the speed of a regular pug and raise survival rate by 99% (never hopeful in normal PUGs).
Stop using Defy Pain. Stop using Self-Heals. Stop using Spiteful Spirit. Stop using Monks ;-)
Don't ostracize pugs, let's help them, eh?
PuG META
HigherMinion
Shrike942
I take offense to "Don't use monks" as my main is a monk. I don't care what anyone says monks are meant to heal and so are better than anyone else at it. Just because you have one skill that can let you spam Infuse doesn't mean your better than a monk at what his profession is meant to do. Lets get rid of ER ele healers and go back to the only healers that were meant to be: Monks and SOMETIMES resto Rits.
Eluvatar
my best 2 healer heros are a HB monk and a necro resto build, thou I have not taken the time to work out a nice er healing hero. thou this is about pugs :\ which people that make the meta builds dont ever do.
upier
This way you are giving up the ease of forming a PuG for higher efficiency.
An efficiency that isn't needed due to how sufficient being bad actually is.
An efficiency that isn't needed due to how sufficient being bad actually is.
awry
In the hands of the lowest common denominator, a subpar easy to use build is more effective than a better build that requires understanding of game mechanics to use.
code1101
^^ this
The post is so sophisticated that I didnt understand it which according to the post concludes that I should always PUG ... muwahahahaha.
The post is so sophisticated that I didnt understand it which according to the post concludes that I should always PUG ... muwahahahaha.
glacialphoenix
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3.SoS spirit spammer.
4. Healer's Boon/UA monks. (Probably the newest thing to happen to PUGs, before it was Life Sheath and WoH.) That's because it's the easiest to run. I prefer WoH hybrid, and so far nobody in my PUGs has objected. (There was even a paragon complaining to me about how his previous group had two HB monks.)
Although, seriously though, I've noticed that when it comes to Zmissions, most PUGs are desperate enough for a healer that they don't care as long as your bar looks capable of it. The annoying ones are the ones that are so set in their conceptions of what can heal and what can't that they refuse to accept anything else.
Of course, I don't PUG if I want to do anything serious; I have guildies for that.
HigherMinion
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Originally Posted by Shrike942
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Then it wouldn't be a PUG, eh? If you actually had the ability to choose, I would say that's a group that you planned and thought about before hand, not a pick-up-group - unless it so happens that you really do have the luxury of picking up exactly what you want at the time you want to play. |
and SOMETIMES resto Rits.
This is rather a stupid. I thought your point was that Monks= healers and protters. No one else. After reading that I think you're just an Ether Renewal hater. Jealous you can't do what I do on my Elementalist on your Monk? Monks are fine, but there are things you cannot do in a team with 2x monks as opposed to 2 ER bond/infusers. For example, "we" can maintain Protective Bond on every ally. Spam high-e prots and maintain Great Dwarf Weapon on all the physicals. A Monk must dedicate itself to bonding. A Monk must dedicate itself to Smiting and buffing physicals with SoH. A Monk must dedicate it's whole bar to healing/protection AND energy management. Now. What looks better? Dorny
What's wrong with SS? (Spiteful Spirit, not Signet of Spirits) :S
And by common PuG builds, you mean "Animate Flesh Golem"? Some lack of detail here...
DigitalFear
Physway>all.
glacialphoenix
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I think the OP is suggesting that the present meta in a PUG situation is viewed as highly unfavourable if one has the fortunate ability to chose 8 players from a pool of experienced players.
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The lack of detail is due to the fact that it's not about the builds themselves. It's the "pug theory" to build-making, and executing them.|
Im still trying to work my way through the idea of "not even half as good as an SS" just trying to work out what kind of mad pug build that would be.
It's possible. And sometimes it's a perfectly decent-looking SS bar, and then you find that the guy can't do anything with it. Or you have the SoS bar, but the rit appears to not realise that attacking spirits ought to be in range of the things they're supposed to be attacking. In any case, I thought several threads established that PUG Meta tends to be stuff that everyone can recognise, and are therefore 'safer' to run.
Windf0rce
I can't think of any area in the game that requires an ER Infuser in place of a Monk. It was debated to death in the ER Infuser thread, because Monks are enough to handle any area and the so called 'infuse spam' is not necessary to keep any decent team up.
Healer's Boon can be ok, if you have a Paragon (Imbagon), then running prot is quite redundant - might as well buff your heals as much as possible (I still prefer running WoH, though). But HB is not bad. Signet of Spirits is insanely powerful and deserves a spot in any/most teams. Everyone is tired, I mean really tired to hear "buffed melees pwns Guild Wars", it's no secret and most know it already. But surprise, not everyone wants to play melee, it is entirely possible to play with a more caster-based team and still clear areas fast enough.
HigherMinion
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Originally Posted by Dorny
And by common PuG builds, you mean "Animate Flesh Golem"? Some lack of detail here... |
But yes, a PUG MM would be running something like Animate Flesh Golem or Aura of The Lich- along with 3 different minion summoning skills.
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Then it wouldn't be a PUG, eh? If you actually had the ability to choose, I would say that's a group that you planned and thought about before hand, not a pick-up-group - unless it so happens that you really do have the luxury of picking up exactly what you want at the time you want to play.
When I pug, I take my time, and in places like ToA, or the latest Zaishen Quests where you can find any profession you want. It's YOUR party, and you should be able to atleast build your idea around your team. There's no point adding 7 random players and going 111111 without seeing their builds, going in blind. Ping! Comment! Adjust their/your build! See if it synergises well with the rest of the team! GOGogoggogogogogoggogo! Quote:
I ping, I comment, and I adjust my build, especially if I'm monking with another monk. I hate finding out that we're working against each other.
That being said, you mentioned a specific personal meta, which I would assume is significantly harder to find if you were to PUG. (I haven't seen any ER eles around when I PUG.) I agree that people should try their best to synergize with the team, but finding the profession you want and finding someone of that profession to run the bar is not the same. You'd probably find quite a few eles at any given moment, but do all of them have the necessary skills (and I mean skills, not ability) to run ER? You shouldn't be going in blind, but with PUGs, by and large, you don't have the luxury to run exactly the build you want them to run. What you can do is make the best use of what is available to you. What is available to you is likely not going to be your version of 'ideal', not the same way you could set it up with 8 experienced players - but you can make it such that it at least passes the 'good enough' mark. (You can tell I don't expect that much from PUGs.)
HigherMinion
If you stand in the same outpost long enough, you will get there eventually. The only hard thing to find in my Meta is a secondary ER. The rest is easy to find. Physicals of any kind and necromancers are already half the demographic.
People know elementalists are terrible at nuking in Hard Mode; but monks can still smite/clean. This gives everyone a chance to be in your party, if they're competent. Ranger. Barrage, generally. with whatever else the hell it likes. Mesmer. EVAS spamming. Ritualist. SoS Spammer. Necromancer. MoP nuker. Monk. SoH maintainer/condition/hex removal. Elementalist. ER bond/infuser. Assassin. Quick-activating chain, spamming Save Yourselves! Dervish. See above. Paragon. See above. Warrior. See above. Premium Unleaded
Average Joe PUG is an idiot and has the bare minimum (if any) understanding of the game.
The problem is that it's still easy enough to win in PvE playing like a retard. Also, SS compared to MoP is better when it comes to a fail/average pug group, as the chances of getting them to ball up a mob successfully is zero.
The Riven
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Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded
Also, SS compared to MoP is better when it comes to a fail/average pug group, as the chances of getting them to ball up a mob successfully is zero.
Both SS and MoP target adjacent foes, if MoP fails as there are no adjacent foes to trigger on then SS must fail for the same reason.
HigherMinion
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded
Also, SS compared to MoP is better when it comes to a fail/average pug group, as the chances of getting them to ball up a mob successfully is zero.
Unless you call a small packet of damage triggering less than once a second worthwhile, MoP will fail when SS does for that reason.
I also rate Fevered Dreams over SS in a PUG for reasons I described here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=107 Premium Unleaded
That's assuming they can actually capitalise on FD's effect.
HigherMinion
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Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded
That's assuming they can actually capitalise on FD's effect.
There are monks and annoying casters everywhere. FD would be alot more helpful than SS in any circumstance; including AoE cripple snare, weakness, Deep Wound, Cracked armour. And alot of damage from Fragility along with those lovely conditions and damage from the PvE shouts.
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded
That's assuming they can actually capitalise on FD's effect.
All they need to do is auto attack any target under the effect of dazed (which should be most of them). There is no need for any of them to provide any conditions of their own - the FD bar brings most of them.
Minions are capable on capitalising on the effect FD has on mobs. Sankt Hallvard
You all have it wrong.
MoP, sos spirit spam, ER, oov, MB and "cleaner"? Wtf is all that crap? You post here to "improve pugs"? You don't pug to find build synergy or effectively complete pve goals. Pve is already easy enough to h/h most of it. And with great efficiency as well. You pug because you get to play with other people. Most of the charm comes with people running funky stuff, making mistakes that make srs pve'ers like yourselves qq/ragequit/flame and people like myself roll around laughing. Stop imposing all your shitty "reactive hexing sucks" and "MoP nukez" bullshit on the awesome pugs. Pugging with "random Joe" is the only appealing thing about pve. If you wanna get pro leet about pve join a speedclear guild and compare ecto collections with each other. Leave the pugs alone!!
Cuilan
I generally don't care for self heals, but I'm not against it. I may bring them however to make up for having a monk instead of an elementalist healer.
One thing I don't care for is how people (PUG or not) who can A/W, D/W, or W/x don't have Save Yourselves. Sometimes I see the non-SY melee as a leecher when there is a second melee with SY. Basically I just try to adapt to a group if it's random or organized. I don't have any set way of doing anything. If something is needed, it's needed and I will inform party members so. Then go from there. Fevered Dreams is awesome. Someone on this board said PUGs generally have enough damage, but not enough technique. I think there is room in most PUGs for one person who can make up for that to prevent epic failures. Let's not pretend that everything works exactly how you want it to. It doesn't. The best thing for PUGs is communication.
Cuilan
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
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I mean, yeah, you can go on and on about how PUGs should be better players and appreciate better builds, but what's the point of showing them better builds if they don't have the ability to play them? What's the point of giving the guy a better bar if he's got zero survival instinct? (Admittedly, if that's the case, he'd fail regardless of whatever bar you asked him to run.)
Quote: Originally Posted by Cuilan Because PUGs are "known" for failing simple things (I don't agree with it completely, but that's how they're viewed by some vocal people). This is precisely why people don't bother. If PUGs can fail simple things, why would you trust them with something that is potentially more difficult to play, and spend time and energy correcting them if it's going to be a relatively short mission? You'll never see them again, so most people just settle for 'good enough'. (If you're going into a long mission, sure, take your time - but would you spend all that time preparing for, say, Unwaking Waters, which is the current ZMission? Masters is 15 mins, after all.) For most people, they'll never see these guys again. If by chance you got a good group, it's 'ty all, gj, great team, cya'. If you fail, you join another group, and - especially in Cantha missions - it's not all that much time wasted. Of course you make sure your team's not working against each other, but that's as far as it goes.
Also, if everyone was willing to learn, we probably wouldn't be seeing this thread now.
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion
Is it just a coincidence most players are running builds from PvX then? problem is some of the "Great" PvX builds are awful. Atleast the variants are, even if the idea is good.
Probably not everyone goes to PvX, but it kind of spreads through the players. Guy A goes to PvX, meets people who have never seen PvX, tells them to run PvX bar. After a while, it becomes a staple. Kind of like, back in pre-nerf Ursan, you'd have people pinging "Run this (Healer's Boon) bar", so after a while, if you were to monk for Ursans, you'd run that bar, even if you'd never laid eyes on PvX in your entire life.
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