Mesmer needs PvE-useful Fast Casting skills (actually, need PvE buff overall)

Yeah the fight will be over in 30 seconds, hence GoLE will be cast before the battle, and again at the next group. Depending on what your running on your bar, that should be all the energy management you need, and the extra 5% is the break point that what 90% of the Mesmers out that hit, so I assume that is the best break point or are they all wrong too? And also 1 character does not carry a team, and if a Mesmer is around, you will notice it.

yeah mesmer skills are awesome secondary.. on a hero though- they are better ints than ranger noticed, if you've ever tried to run 2 mesmer hero's with int bars- you can walk into a cast heavy mob and just do whatever you want XD on a player though in pve.. fast casting isn't too great

My friend, I understand this is your pet class...I can respect that. If you are going to just make up statistics to support your argument however, then I simply don't know what to tell you. I find it difficult if not impossible to believe that you are perceptive enough to notice a 1/10th of a second difference in casting time on a 2 second spell. Just to help visualize how fast that really is human eye blinking is 3 times slower.

Yes I'm making up those numbers, go look on Pvx. It may be a bad example, but I'll bet my account on it that just about every mesmer build on there has atleast 9 fast casting. So how are my stats made up?

I don't use 9 on FC all the time. So I'm the 1/10th in your argument? I suppose the next 9 posters all use 9? Wiki is full of shit and made up statistics is just that, made up. Like you said, wiki is a bad example. Provide a better one.

I have a ridiculous amount of fun on my mesmer and in fact haven't played any other class in PVE. I think it's a versatile class with a lot of options just with signet of illusions alone, not to mention what you can do with domination and illusion, granted there does need to be some better FC skills.

You suck at Guild Wars, so hard I almost don't know where to begin. Oh, wait, I do know!

Moebius Strike
Death Blossom

Also, implying elementalist is good for damage, or that warriors can't run d-slash or earthshaker or triple chop or hundred blades.

You are a scrub.

This is an amazingly close-minded post, which demonstrates most of the problem with the GW playerbase. Tunnel-vision. You can only see through your speed-clear goggles.

Wars and Sins are the highest DPS classes in the game, bar none. Only Dervs are even close. SF? ObsFlesh? WTF? Learn to play. Do you really think immunity spells make you a better player? No they don't. You don't need to learn or THINK with SF active, which is why most people like it. Fine, but don't bite off on the illusion that that makes you good.

Necros are great, but NOT because of Discord, wow. You actually picked the one thing they are substandard at. Discord nerf is on the horizon anyway, prepare for it.

Eles are AWFUL at HM. TERRIBLE. Slow casting, aftercast delay, very few buffs available, non-armor-ignoring damage.... the list goes on and on. But yes, they are ranged, which means you can try to avoid having to learn how to play. PewPew, someone tank for me.

Mesmers...I've seen mes bars that rock PvE hard, Fragility + ALL conditions in about 3 seconds = boom. But yes, they are a misunderstood class and not really for beginners.


Speedclears are NOT high end PvE. They are speedclears. They are gimmicky, wonky, COMPLETELY BAD bars that only do one thing in order to get more loot. Stop kidding yourself.

Speedclears are NOT high end PvE.

The proof is in the pudding. SCs are often PUGS, they want the SF/OBS/VOS tanks because they do't play with these people and don't know what else they can do. They want a 'sure thing'. PUGS can't be high-end, by definition, regardless of how fast they clear fow.

pffft, mesmer is powerful enough with the idiotic pve AI

why is it that i am not surprised when i see the creator of a thread like this is an 09er...

Power creep, no more skill changes, or nerfs. Pick one since AI changes are unlikely.

Power creep is a serious problem, THE serious problem in my opinion. Buffing Mesmers into orbit creating even more power creep is not a reasonable solution especially when it will also effect monster skill usage. If I am forced to choose between those 3 options I reluctantly choose nerf. Let's face what this is really about...tailoring the game to be more amenable to Mesmers. You've railed against other classes dominating the scene so how would altering it so that it benefits Mesmers be any different...ah nevermind, I see.

Oh, and why not try leaving my username alone when you quote me instead of turning into nonsensical garbage, or was that some sort of pathetic troll attempt? Save it for the playground.

Easy fix for PvE Mesmers:

Change Domination Magic to actual DOMINATION!!1 I don't know how many RPGs I've played with a Enchanter or Psionic type character, but Domination magic or powers almost always allows one to take control of enemies to even out the odds of an engagement.

So why not re-work/re-name some of the Mesmer's Domination skills to allow the Mesmer to take control of enemies?

It could easily be expanded upon. The "controllable" amount of monsters would be based on the rank in Domination Magic, exactly like tehe Necromancer's Death Magic. There could be one or two regular DM skills that allow control for say 30 to 60 seconds of one or two enemies, a couple more skills that could increase the length of the Domination, and a few more that would enhance your dominated creatures in battle.

Also, there could be a couple of Elite Domination skills, such as one that makes the selected creature a "pet" as long as you remain in the zone, and another that could dominate multiple creatures at once, possibly with a health sacrifice or additional energy cost per dominated creature.

Or, and this plays into the Mesmer's energy manipulation talents, allow the Mesmer to Dominate as many creatures as he or she can, and each one causes 1 pip of energy degen, to represent the psychic cost of maintaining the link.

It just seems odd to me, now that I think about it, that this type of change was never conceived of even waaaay back. It seems an obvious connection to make, perhaps its the effete clothing they wear that distracted me lol.

But given the similarities between the Necromancer and the Mesmer, a change to Domination to make it ACTUAL Domination might reinvigorate the class as a PvE workhorse, much like the Ritualist's spirits and the Necromancer's minions.

Reformed, sounds like you have your own pet professions? I mean, you don't seem to be open enough to see anything positive about mesmers. Doesn't help anyone better see your view or take you seriously.

Because someone values something that you don't, they must be biased or trolling.

I play a Mesmer regularly, try again.

I rather not have half the attribute line of Domination useless in PvP assuming the other half doesn't deal with controlling.

I cannot guarantee changes. But I, personally, want to see the mesmer buffed towards replacing a Curses necromancer and have their "indirect" damage expanded on
On a side note, I would love Illusionary Weaponry have a look taken at it for better use by mesmers in general PvE.


But this is just my wishlist as Kain, the player, and not as TK.

Un-nerf the recharge times of all the skill that were nerfed due to Mor!

THAT is a nice step towards making AP less needed when trying to compete.

And maybe Un nerf some inspiration skills that were knobbed due to 2ndy abuse.

"lol. beast mastery? good luck"

funny, i did uw with ranger using good ol enraged lounge pet with gdw.
ended up with 147 dmg nearly spammable attack on aataxes and mindblades + deep wound + tanking capacity beeing able to solo through hordes of monster if the stupid pet AI was fixed lol.

anyway this is about mesmers and playing as a mesmer as second char i find it a bit narrow.

VOR i lovely and so is illusion eoe spike too...

but that makes my day.

there is a lot of waste mesmer skills (and certainly elites!) that could use a boost (go iw!) in pve since in pve enchantment removal and single target disabling is weak when all groups are agro-spike-repeat especially in high end.
there are not many ele bosses with party whipe Armageddon skills with 10 sec cast interrupt friendly.

and as disable/interrupt i prefer ranger 10X
with all these quick cast healing spells and all you cant have the long recharge on most mes rupts compared to the heart feeling ranger skills.
u cant realy have it in your marrow such as the bow attacks
(or at least i cant :P)

I didn't mean change the WHOLE Domination line. Just like Death Magic has some minion/corpse stuff, and some direct damage, so too could the Domination line keep its effectiveness as is while changing or adding 6 to 10 skills and one or two Elites to Dominate creatures in PvE.

Basically the "controller" archetype, seen in many tabletop and computer games, or movies like Push and Scanners.

too bad most pugs prefer mo/n over me/mo on SoI just because they do.

what can be ran by EVERY class, including warrior.

now that's funny. ever heard of bloodstained insignias? SR>FC in pve, nothing new.

not too stable anymore, try running it yourself, you'll understand.



totally non-mesmer gimmicks.




two things should be changed in pve, imho (well, maybe more and more specific stuff, but those are the crucial ones): FC should be at least of some use now (thinking synergy with skills from other lines or mes pve-only, like buffing back and linking CoP to FC) and the recharge times of most skills should be lowered for pve.
mesmers are unbalanced - they seem to be designed for pvp while their pve side was almost totally ignored.



this sums it up.

Mesmers definately need a buff. But, dervs and (to a lesser extent) rangers need buffs more. And no, I'm not saying that because they're my pet classes (I don't even have a derv).

Warriors actually have quite a few options.

Sins have great damage, too (Critscythe, DB, etc).

Eles are good for wards and ER, not nukes.

to the OP,

Though mesmer is mostly all I play, I firmly believe it is a better secondary class than a primary. To this, I mean all of the skills the mesmer uses that are deemed "useful" are all non-fast cast attributes, allowing all classes to borrow from the mesmer tool belt. The mesmer needs more skills that are based on the fast cast attribute so other classes are less likely to take advantage of those skills and gives the Mesmer a more "meaningful" place in the game. This was done with the ele by having non E-storage skills tied to the E-storage attribute. I would love to see this done with the mesmer.

Fast cast is nice, ut when there are no worthwhile skills attached to the fast cast attribute, who really cares how nice it is.

The benefits are better reaped by using Mesmer as a secondary profession in PVE.

In some harder areas you have conditions and hexes that can hinder physical based groups. Mesmers can run as cleaners along with SoH.

PUGs tend to have enough damage, but they still are known for failing. Extend Conditions and Fevered Dreams takes care of that.

Mesmers have very aggressive AP builds and extra synergy with many PvE skills instead of "oh here, let's just add random PvE skills that are good."

They're always welcome in any Shitterflame, Cryway, or FoCway based groups with or without a tank.

Their recharge and energy management can be dealt with, but sadly I don't think some people in this thread are aware of that or know how to use a build more fluidly. With that said, I still think mesmers need less recharge times either with the skills themselves or from a buff to fast casting. Some recharge times are just crazy....crazy.

Fast casting helps certain types of skills do more damage and allow you to not waste a skill if an enemy is seconds from dying. 40/40 sets are wonderful and can even be used on mesmers, but you have only a 32 percent chance of half the casting time I believe.

Interruption builds are silly, but a good player with a good interrupt on their bar is always welcome. Let's not pretend everything turns out perfectly or that enemies don't do anything as you bash their heads in. Then again, more skills like Shame or Mistrust would be nice or rework all of their interrupt skills?

From reading this thread, some people must really fail at their "often" used professions. Go ahead and aim for 1/3 of what others are doing. Basically I think mesmers are a very useful profession, but their diversity and non-button mashing like nature hinders players from playing them well.

I don't really believe in gimmick builds. A build is a build and it's a mesmer build if you're using it on a mesmer...

I fail to see how this post in relevant at all. And Fyi speed clears happen in High End PvE areas, or is DoA/UW/FoW not high end enough?? I can understand dungeons not being high end as you can essentially run a blank skill bar and still roll through it, but those other 3 areas you simply cannot do it.

As for a Domination mesmer controlling enemies, that would be pretty awesome. I would love to see something like that, but highly doubt it will happen.

As for running around with SF up and not having to think, you clearly have not tanked in DoA or UW lately have you??

As for 40/40 sets, here is some math a guildie of mine worked out awhile back..



Above is a table of the combinations for a 40/40 set. The "S" in the cell mean success and "F" means failure of the effect. So based on the 20% probabilitys you have about a 10 percent chance of 1/2 recharge and 1/2 cast time. You have almost 41% chance of no benefit. THere is about a 4% chance of a 1/4 Recharge Time.

Completely agree with this statement...if SF is overpowered because its "too easy" for pugs, then mesmer should also be balanced because its underpowered.

But...as predicted the thread is now in suggestion forum where it would disappear from view in a week or so.

We need more persistent people constantly opening threads and bumping threads just like the SF whining...maybe then Anet would take notice.

I wouldn't mind a 4-5% recharge for mesmer skills with each rank in FC

Really ? its pretty clear to me. SC or Group Farming or Farming itself cant be counted to balance an entire class in PvE . Not now , not ever. Plain simple. If it was so , then the entire game should be balanced around ........ SF combo ? or maybe is THE OTHER way round , like the next update is going to be or somethin.

Well dude , you can SC NF starting isle but it would be plain stupid because there are no rewards. The mere SC existance or its ability to SC/farm elite areas is not a logic thing to balance rest of the game .... in fact it is BROKEN STUFF that should be reworked to keep high end areas like those a real "challenge" .

The thing is that PvE mesmer needs some buff , not a big one but maybe some shorter recharges , bigger effects or bigger side-effects ( like some AoE ). One of the main reasons is FC , an atrib line that helps almost no players in HM and is more pvp oriented.

Mesmers are not the optimal choice, but neither are they with rangers in the "why would I possibly want to take you" category. I'll agree that they need work -but I'll take your average mesmer over your average member of other classes anyday.

I don't have to worry about browbeating someone into dropping searing flames, defy pain, endure pain, shadow form, or any of the other random useless junk the meta for most classes revolves around. PUG mesmers tend to have some nice armor ignoring damage (though you see retarded builds, as with all classes).

This is absolutely my wish as well. That is exactly how Mesmer interrupts should work - Timing based interrupts are a ridiculous twitch challenge in this game, particularly since you're often looking at pings of 200+.

On another note... I know it will never happen I wouldn't mind seeing Fast Casting reduce skill recharge times for some interrupt skills when a skill is successfully interrupted. It just seems silly to interrupt a skill, particularly in PvE, when the recharge time on your interrupt is 12-20s and many skills have recharge times that make that laughable (e.g. Searing Flames @2s, Word of Healing @3s). The only time that seems really justifiable in PvE is when you can shut down a whole group (ala Cry of Frustration).

Most of these are basically the Mesmer pretending to be something else, and be honest... Are they as good as the something else they're imitating? In most cases, the answer is a definite "no". Especially with their currently fairly weak energy management (it's sad that the profession that has the greatest focus on manipulating Energy has a tendency to rely on other professions to supplement its energy management. Used to be the other way around... )

Orrr... going back to the OP, make Fast Casting cause a general reduction of recharge times as well as casting times.

Another possibility is to cross-link a bundle of Mesmer skills with Fast Casting, so they have greater effect with a higher Fast Casting attribute.

CoP didn't do much to help mesmers at all - it worked just fine with an E/Me or N/Me with a cheap throwaway Mesmer hex.

More accurately, used intelligently it's a net 15 energy every 30 seconds - about a pip and a half, if I remember the rates correctly. That's pretty good for nonelite energy management - there's a reason /E for GOLE is a popular option.

67.8569% of all statistics are made up on the spot, including this one.

I generally hovor around 7 FC, although it can vary depending on just how many points I can spare from other things.

Don't even need Moebius any more, with the current behaviour of Jagged and Fox Fangs. (Not to say that there aren't advantages to keeping with Moebius - there are - just that it isn't necessary to do so.)

That said, though, I can think of Mesmer bars that outperform DB bars, at least in my own style of play. They just don't much resemble the way I visualise a Mesmer behaving. Maybe if you considered all those Ebon Vanguard assassins to be illusions rather than being actually physically present.

Doesn't really fit into the GW engine and game design (even PvE skills behave similarly to things you have in PvP, even though they're horrendously overpowered. This would be a whole new effect. Plus, I found out first hand how annoying "temporary control" skills could be the one time I faced Dhuum).

Personally, I think this is the sort of thing that spells like Empathy and Backfire are supposed to represent - the caster is pushing the target away from performing a certain act. The problem is that Necromancers are so much better at it (plus, people who regularly play in highly-organised teams will tell you reactive hexes just plain suck. This is really true only in teams that are highly organised enough to take full advantage of the suggested alternatives - reactive hexes can work quite well at a PuG level). I also tend to think of skills like Mistrust and Wandering Eye as short-term control effects hoodwinking the target into attacking their allies - frankly, I would love to see the Mesmer having more skills like Clumsiness, Wandering Eye, and Mistrust. Of course, the skill that combines both sides of the coin is, alas, a Necromancer skill (namely Spiteful Spirit).

Mesmer hex removal is very bad compared to what Monks have (unless it's a monster-only hex to be cleared by abusing Inspired Hex), and most parties will have Monks to clean. I've said it before, in fact - a buff to Mesmer hex removal will actually indirectly buff all forms of non-Monk healing as well.

One thing I'd love to see is for skills like Shame and Mistrust actually interrupt the spell that triggers them (like Clumsiness does to attacks) rather than simply causing them to fail. There's an important distinction - a spell stopped by Mistrust doesn't have to recharge, so it's just going to come right at you a second later, making pre-emptive interrupts of this form unsatisfying at best. ('Course, interrupts are often just a case of buying the 10 seconds or so needed to kill the mob anyway, but it'd be nice of a 20-30 recharge skill bought more than two seconds against Sparks of the Titans.)

Too high - this could conceivably result in a recharge time of 0. 2-3% might work, or a diminishing returns scale.

I use Me/E but then I've used Mo/E with the exact same intent in the past. The point wasn't whether or not GoLE is a good skill, it is, we were talking about attribute distribution and to a lesser extent boxing yourself into a secondary for energy management you can provide natively.

As for tweaking FC maybe another visual is in order. Think about HM monsters and their 20 spec attributes. Now think about the Four Horsemen quest in the Underworld. Let's say conservatively you give FC a 2% bump per rank. They already get increased skill recharge (33%-50%) do you really want to give them more? This is of course assuming they ignore the cap...they ignore all the other limitations of the game so why not. I despise PvE skills but if there are going to be fundamental changes that's the safest way to do it. You can't win by buffing things when the opposition gets the same buffs with much bigger numbers.

Are the Four Horsemen themselves really the main threat in that quest?

Less flippantly - Monsters can be toned back down if necessary. If something serves to restore balance between professions, I say go ahead and do it, and then fix any monster that becomes stupidly broken after it becomes necessary.

Plus, we're still assuming a linear relationship. Use a diminishing returns series like casting time has, and we may be able to get a noticeable recharge reduction at the 7-9 attribute levels that most PCs have without it getting too insane at 20.

For instance, let's try a scale in which recharge speed (similar to how Air of Disenchantment increases the rate at which enchantments expire) is increased by 4% per rank from 1-5, 3% from 6-10, 2% from 11-15, and 1% from 16-20:
FC rank_Increase/rank_Total increase_Recharge time
0__________0%___________0%_________100%
1__________4%___________4%_________96.2%
2__________4%___________8%_________92.6%
3__________4%___________12%________89.3%
4__________4%___________16%________86.2%
5__________4%___________20%________83.3%
6__________3%___________23%________81.3%
7__________3%___________26%________79.4%
8__________3%___________29%________77.5%
9__________3%___________32%________75.8%
10_________3%___________35%________74.1%
11_________2%___________37%________73.0%
12_________2%___________39%________71.9%
13_________2%___________41%________70.9%
14_________2%___________43%________69.9%
15_________2%___________45%________69.0%
16_________1%___________46%________68.5%
17_________1%___________47%________68.0%
18_________1%___________48%________67.6%
19_________1%___________49%________67.1%
20_________1%___________50%________66.7%

As you can see, while especially high levels of Fast Casting do receive a payoff, the actual increase in the rate of casting spells at 20 is not really that much higher than at more modest levels of investment - thus, Mesmer players in general are able to benefit at a comparable level to HM monsters.

if it's a 'mesmer build' around another profession's elite skill and loads of people run it because it's powerful, it's a gimmick. see: everything on AP.
mesmers are cool on AP, on water nukes/snares, as fast cast ROJ/ress... just not as a mesmer.



the topic itself turned into 'are mesmers underpowered in pve and why you think so'. the topic subject is, though, that they need a pve buff and we might stick to it. if you think mesmers are overpowered (haha...), you're free to state it, sure, just don't follow the guy's posts.

i suggest to focus on actual ideas of buffs and tweaks ANet could do to mesmers that would fix them. there is the test krewe running and they do consider what we think - but they prefer actual ideas rather than 'please fix it QQ!!!!!'.

so i encourage to share your ideas how mesmers could be buffed without breaking the game even more (aka giving other classes more advantage than mesmers).



the first thing is to do something with fast casting line. it's nearly completely useless. doesn't really matter in pve if my VoR lands 1/2s faster or not. interrupts are generally 1/4s anyway and they're darn hard to run on high ping, while heroes can handle that aspect very well. the only moment when fc is really useful is ressing dead members of the party during combat - but i think it isn't what mesmers were made for.

changing the whole attribute line is rather unrealistic and might break pvp side of the game, where mesmers can truly shine and control the battle. it would just need a lot of more work.

so, instead, we need something like links, similar to mirror of ice or there's nothing to fear. we need to tweak some skills so that other classes won't benefit so much from being a secondary mesmer while being a primairy mesmer would become at least of some use in the pve.



the easiest tweaks can be done unto pve-only mesmer skills: cry of pain and ether nightmare.

i would like to see CoP buffed back to deal the damage it used to deal, but requiring a high fast casting attribute for that. like:

Cry of Pain
Spell. Interrupt target foe's skill. If that foe was suffering from a Mesmer Hex, that foe and all foes in the area take 5...25 damage and 10 more damage for every 2 points in your Fast Casting attribute.

the numbers can be changed of course, balanced out etc - the general idea is to give mesmers back their main aoe damaging spell while making it unable to others, especially e/me that used to run it a lot what probably caused the original nerf.
i believe the e-cost and recharge time is fine.

as for ether nightmare - it still can has some synergy. either some energy gain for points invested in the fast casting line or longer duration. i'd still prefer an energy regen option, so:

Ether Nightmare
Hex Spell. Target foe loses 5...7...8 Energy. For each point of Energy lost in this way, that foe and all foes in the area suffer -1 Health degeneration for 10 seconds. You gain 1 Energy for each 2 points of Fast Casting attribute above 2.

so on 6 fc you'd gain 2e back, on 16 fc you'd gain 7e back.



there's also a lot of possibilities how to link other skills to fc. i would strongly suggest, however, a pvp/pve split to every skill tweaked and a separate balancing of pve and pvp version.
for example, all mantras could last longer or give back more energy/protect better with points in fc. channeling could be capped at 10s without fc and lenghtening for 5s for every point in fc.
one of the most needed changes, imho, could be done with the ether signet. cut it's recharge and link it with fc:

Ether Signet - 1s cast, 25s recharge
Signet. If you have less than 5...9...10 Energy, gain 2...5...7 Energy and 2 Energy more for each two points in Fast Casting above 4.

again, the numbers can be balanced out - i haven't thought it in-depthly yet, those are just raw ideas so far. still, something more specific.



i think, imho, that there are three major issues with mesmers in pve.

1. several skills have the same or similar effect. there's at least a dozen of interrupts, while maybe five are used in pve. this limits the general amount of useful skills. a lot of degen, including energy degen, which is usually useless in most pve builds and places (or it's just inferior to anything else).
2. the elite skills. just two mesmer elites are widely useful in pve - VoR and E-Surge. still, they're mostly inferior to other me/any builds, like AP callers or water snarers. other elites are just useless against mobs - you need damage in pve, not e-degen. they're either too pvp-oriented or have too long recharge/cost what makes them useless.
3. general recharge time. 30s for a chaos storm, 20s for a pve backfire, 25s (and 15e!) for shatter enchantment? or 45s for ether signet?



some solutions:

1. change pve versions of some skills, so that they're not copies (or almost copies) of five other. remove most e-degen skills from pve and change them with something else.
2. balance out the elites recharges and effects - pve needs more specified outcomes. a good example here is panic - it's annoying when a mob casts it on a player, but 25e cost and 10s recharge makes it completely, insanely useless, not only as an elite, but even as a skill in general.
3. cut the recharge times of spells, while either linking their effects to fc line or cutting a bit their power. if i can use a spell for 10e once in 20s and deal 50dmg, i'd prefer to have all three numbers cut in half, so that i don't have to wand the mobs for half of the battle.


now, share your ideas :3

Scale skills with 2 att lines is a good idea , they made it sometimes but it seems to me that they refuse to do it more often :/

YES!!! This is of course assuming you don't use some time of invincitank. Their ability to effectively spam Diversion is a major problem down there for real groups. By comparison Skeletons and Dryders are a minor inconvenience.

If they want to give Mesmers a buff in line with something like what Rits got I would be all for it. The difference to the monster side of the game is barely noticeable outside of a few groups that were annoying anyways. I however strongly disagree with the notion of buffing into orbit and worrying about collateral damage later. I think your table is well thought out but how is giving every HM Mesmer in the game free Mantra of Recovery really a good idea?

As for my own ideas...I would like to see more party synergy along the lines of Fevered Dreams. This of course requires players to recognize first and foremost that Mesmers have a useful role in party formation. They shine in a limited environment (see PvP) which is why they are lacking in PvE. That doesn't mean they need a top to bottom overhaul just that their skills need to take into account, now 4+ years in, that PvE uses grossly inflated numbers and large volumes of enemies. PvE has become about either bypassing targets entirely to get to the goal or producing the biggest yellow numbers in the shortest period of time. If you can't contribute tangibly to either one of those goals with a real Mesmer bar then chances are good you must either play a gimmick to get a group or sit out. Nerfing CoP did a lot of harm to the second scenario, at the minimum they should consider direct damage changes and linking to FC as drkn suggested.

Agreed entirely, I would post some of the more radical changes I'd like to see, but I don't think redoing fast casting is going to happen at this stage in the game. The most likely thing is just minor adjustments to skills.



I support this change.


I also support this option. Most PvE skills seem to be essentially as powerful as 2 skills for the cost of one slot, but Ether Nightmare has never really stacked up on that front since energy loss on monsters is virtually pointless and health degeneration is a fairly weak effect in PvE. Ether Nightmare has always struck me as more like 1.5x the value of a skill slot, but the energy regained you propose improves the skill up to about the standard 2 slot value.


Again, supported. I would probably drop the recharge time even further.
The 45s recharge time on this is too long to see use in PvE bars. Unlike, say, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Ether Signet is only used after you've blown all your energy (ie, at the ened of an encounter), whereas GoLE is used at the start of an encounter and is recharging all throughout it.


Some suggestions for PvE skill splits:


5e, 1ct, 5rt
Spell. For each point of Energy Target Foe has, that foe takes 1...3...3 damage. 50% failure chance unless Domination Magic 5 or higher. Maximum Damage 75 [Or maybe Maximum Damage 40 +5 per 2 ranks in Fast Casting].

Rationale: The "target foe regains all energy" clause is too big of a drawback for this to be used. Furthermore, by only causing damage based on energy regained the skill is limited to being used at the end of an encounter when enemies are probably already close to being dead. Proposed changes reverses this by making it more useful as a leading attack and less useful at the end of the encounter.



5e, 2ct, 12rt
Hex Spell. (5...17...20 seconds.) Target foe takes 35...119...140 damage whenever it uses an elite skill.

Rationale: The energy loss effect is basically useless in PvE, and the single-use effect makes it even worse. Single-use limitation should be dropped altogether, and causing damage makes as much sense in the theme of this spell as energy loss does, but the damage effect might actually prove useful.


10e, 1ct, 8rt
Hex Spell. For 6 seconds, the next time target foe uses a skill, that skill is interrupted and is disabled for +5...11...13 seconds.

Rationale: Remove the silly twitch interrupt mechanism, and reduce the cooldown so that this skill becomes a Diversion-lite.



5e, 1ct, 20rt
Spell. Deals 5...12...14 damage each second (10 seconds). Hits foes adjacent to target's initial location. Causes 1...6...7 Energy loss to foes casting a spell.

Rationale: This spell needs a lower recharge straight off the bat.



Move to Fast Casting Attribute
5e, 1ct, 10rt
Hex Spell. Target foe has -1...3...3 Energy degeneration and you have +1...3...3 Energy regeneration (5...9...10 seconds).

Rationale: This could be a decent skill if you drop the lose all energy clause. The casting time is also contrary given the desired usage of this spell - It's a denial/emanagement hex so you want to put it into play quickly at the start of an encounter (and it only lasts so long as the enemy is alive or the hex is active, so potentially quite short). Shortening the casting time and reducing the cooldown so it is maintainable would make this a viable skill for energy denial/management.

Alternatively, drop the idea of this as a hex at all and make it a non-elite version of Lyssa's Aura.


5e, 2ct, 15rt
Hex Spell. (6 seconds.) Target foe's next spell is interrupted and you steal 5...12...14 Energy. No effect unless this foe's spell targets one of your allies.

Rationale: 25 second recharge time? Really?


10e, 2ct, 15rt
Hex Spell. (6 seconds.) Target foe's next spell is interrupted and you steal 5...12...14 Energy. No effect unless this foe's spell targeted one of its allies.

Rationale: 30 second recharge time? Really?


10e, 2ct, 15rt
Hex Spell. (6 seconds.) The next spell that target foe casts on one of your allies is interrupted and deals 15...63...75 damage to target and nearby foes.

Rationale: I could live with the 20s recharge time as long as the effect was actually to interrupt the spell. Unlike Shame and Guilt, the effect on fail/interrupt is actually useful here.



10e, 1ct, 20rt
Spell. Deals 15...63...75 damage. Deals 15...63...75 damage to foes near your target if this foe was near a summoned creature. This skill recharges twice as fast if it hits a summoned creature.

Rationale: I would much rather see this skill useful in a wider variety of situations. Drop the overall cooldown and remove the silly instant recharge effect. I might even drop the "recharges twice as fast" clause if it starts being problematic again, as long as the skill can make it into a bar.


10e, 2ct, 20rt
Hex Spell. (30 seconds.) Target foe and adjacent foes have 25% chance to miss. You gain 1...3...3 Energy whenever hexed foes miss.

Rationale: Never seen this as a particularly effective skill, particularly since it effectively requires you to combo it with something else if you want to get any benefit from the secondary effect. At the very least the casting time needs to be sped up and the energy cost needs to come down, if not giving it the AoE effect.

@up
everything seems fine and workable but the power lock. we don't need copies of spells. diversion is enough, imho.

Well, the purpose behind that particular suggestion is to make a shutdown skill that is going to be reasonably and effectively spammable. Diversion, with shutdown times up to 56 seconds, is never going to get a low recharge time like 8s.

The suggested change to Power Lock could tie down several skills on one foe by itself -- The additional recharge time it adds is low compared to Diversion but should generally be enough to keep the interrupted skill down until that monster dies (what monsters are living more than recharge+10s?). Making it spammable would just mean you can lock down a skill on more monsters, or lock down one monster more effectively.

I suppose another approach I considered suggesting would be,


10e, 1ct, 15rt
Hex Spell. For 6 seconds, the next time target foe uses a skill, target foe and all foes in the area are interrupted and any skill interrupted is disabled for +5...11...13 seconds.


or maybe,


10e, 1ct, 15rt
Hex Spell. For 15 seconds, the next time target foe uses a spell, that spell is interrupted and the next (0...2...3) spells of the same attribute are interrupted. For each additional spell interrupted you lose 5 energy or Power Lock ends.


This actually makes it more like Power Block (probably what they were going for anyway given the names and effects here).


I'd really like to see Stolen Speed get made into something useful, given it's an Elite Fast Casting, but that doesn't seem likely. Adding a Hex-to-Interrupt effect on Power Return would be pretty nice too but I don't know how viable that is without completely rethinking the skill's role as a spammable interrupt for heroes.

And in the process, squeezed out some of the skills that are useful - I'd love to see some more skills along the general lines of Clumsiness and Mistrust.

I'd argue VoR and E-Surge, actually. VoR was probably weaker than SS even before it started antisynergising with pretty much everything else on the Mesmer bar. And E-Surge is, what, a 100-damage nuke every 20 seconds? Yawn.

They're "best of a bad lot" skills, no more. The Mesmer elites I use the most are probably Energy Drain and Echo (and those only when I can afford to be substandard, generally when skillcapping in NM), although I've been experimenting with mandragor-inna-can builds lately.

Agreed. You've also missed:

4. Monsters generally having immunity to a lot of things Mesmers do.

Not sure whether that can be fixed at this stage, but it would be nice to see some of those immunities boss monsters have turn into resistances instead (maybe Diverting Impossible Odds, for instance, for nearly a minute would be too cheap, but if you could Divert it for an extra ten seconds, that would serve to at least slow him down a bit.)

Regarding Spiritual Pain - a simple reversion might be a good start. The problem it was causing was in PvP, if I remember rightly, it's just that the idea of a split hadn't been hit on then.