Mesmer needs PvE-useful Fast Casting skills (actually, need PvE buff overall)

yeah, still, they're the only two elites i've ever seen used in mesmer-only builds. VoR sucked enough and was inferior to most necro elites, not only SS, while now it sucks even more.

i'd like to see pve version of Ineptitude - a spammable anti-melee nuke-hex:

Ineptitude, 5e, 1s, 7s
Elite Hex Spell. For 4 seconds, the next time target foe attacks, that foe takes 30...90...140 damage and becomes Blinded for 4 seconds.

i'd love to see Migraine pve-useful - the recharge time, the cost and the casting time, doubled with the surprisingly low health degen, make it a shitty skill, useless even if it wasn't an elite.


this, somehow, can be used to our advantage - say hello to Wastrel's Worry, one of my favorite skills when i used to have CoP on my skill tab. 1/2 hex duration on bosses and wurms rocked then.
it would probably be possible to change immunities into resistances but it would need too much work. i wouldn't want to meddle too much and take the staff their precious time if there are other possible tweaks that just require changing some numbers or reworking several skills and a bit of testing.

there's one big sin commited against mesmers by ANet. throughout the game, as GW was developed, as new content was added, new professions came, new skills were introduced, the mesmers got the least love out there. they weren't buffed as much as other professions. it wouldn't be that bad if they didn't suck in the first place (talking about pve all the time). but hey, then came some builds using a /me secondary to rock the pve world - mo/me, a/me, e/me, rt/me, actually any/me can be ran efficiently in some places. secondary mesmers were used in farming, speedclears, running...
so, in order to nerf the overpowered and broken parts of the game, ANet nerfed mesmer skills. see CoP changes - done because CoP was overpowered in speedclears, mainly in DoA and mainly on elementalist primairies with a cheap and powerful aoe nuke they could run. see VoR changes - done because it was used as a long and powerful aoe hex ran by e/me to fuel up the CoP. see (later reverted but still) MoR nerf - done because mo/me and e/me used it for tanking and farming.
the mesmers were nerfed because of overpowered builds with mesmer secondary. still, it was the primairy mesmers that were hurt the most.
it wouldn't be that much a crime if other mesmer skills were buffed along with the nerfs. killed CoP? okay, buff Cry of Frustration. nerfed VoR? give us a strong buff in another elite skill so that we have anything handy out there in pve. nothing like that was done.


and, by the way, talking about CoP and CoF. i've already suggested it a long time ago but it was ignored then and we had no test krewe set here at guru yet. one of the ideas i came to with my guildies was to switch CoP and CoF. make Cry of Frustration a sunspear skill, while Cry of Pain would be a domination skill with a vital and needed breakpoint at 13+ domination magic. it's not the perfect fix and not even half as good as giving us back CoP, just linked with fc, but it looks like a quick tweak not needing too much of work and time.


just a general though at the end, to ANet and the test krewe. if any of you even reads it, that is.
don't hesitate to bring changes. if you change something and notice it's broken - either you made it overpowered or useless - just change it back or tone down/up a little. and you will be able to see it clearly really soon after complains - or a lot of new builds - seen here, at the wiki, at pvx. reverting a skill can be done in less than a day, as you've already proven with MoR. do not be afraid of giving us something broken - everything's fine as long as you try to balance out the game and we can see that something changes and you care, we don't need 'the one great update that will make us all happy'.



@down:
degen is generally much inferior to direct damage, armor ignoring or not. at least in pve, on mobs. thus, CoP was nerfed.

Why people keep saying CoP was nerfed? it's very true for CryWay and maybe for a mesmer who double echoed it, but for all other uses the damage it does is very similar to before.

This change will just make the speed clear use mesmer primary (or a grail) instead of ele/mes , good i guess for the mesmer who are looking to get themself into a speedclear, but it cause the same problem of why they would have nerfed in first place.

Well because it was nerfed. Now have almost half of the direct damage and like we all know , direct damage > degeneration. It was used to SPIKE , not to give a medium spike and leave mobs with some degen that can be healed and while still alive they do damage bla bla bla.

This , like TNTF , should be scaled along with FC.

Of course it was a nerf. It wasn't as bad as what they did to MoR during the pirate event, sure, but doing X damage instantly is almost always better than doing X cumulative damage over 10 seconds.

As you also point out, the change makes the skill syngergize less well with existing Mesmer skills (and typically other party members too).

I'd even be inclined to leave the blind at 10 seconds with this change. Elementalists get Blinding Surge, after all, which can keep an entire mob continuously blinded. We shouldn't be afraid to demand that as the profession that supposedly specialises in shutdown, we should be able to achieve this against at least a single foe.

Heck, I'd be tempted to go further and do the following:
Ineptitude, 10e, 2s, 8s
Elite Hex Spell. (4 seconds.) Also hexes adjacent foes. Interrupts next attack. Interruption effect: deals 10...76...92 damage and target is blinded for 10 seconds

Yes, I did copy-paste the Clumsiness text - largely because I thought doing the full Ineptitude damage in an area might be a little too much. On the other hand, maybe it wouldn't - after all, the Blind condition from this version of Ineptitude still remains more vulnerable to removal than from Blinding Surge.

Migraine could possibly be fixed by making it area-of-effect - then it'd be an Arcane Conundrum with a lower recharge, and the token degen would just be gravy.

More ambitiously, replace the degen with the Frustration damage-on-interruption mechanic - that'd make it synergise with Clumsiness and the like as well as the spell interrupts it's designed to work with.

Oh, yes, WW is good for fooling the system - but does that really make up for having so many energy draining skills that are at best used for their other effects, and are in some cases completely useless? Does it really make up for pretty much any enemy that might last long enough for skill disabling to be useful proving to be immune to it?

And yes, I'd agree that Mesmers have got the short end of the stick when it comes to power creep. They've had new toys as new chapters and expansions came along, yes, but unless you count PvE skills that really move away from Mesmer behaviour, nothing that really changes the Mesmer paradigm as the paradigms of other professions have been changed by things like DS-spamming and Nightfall fire magic elites. And anything that came up that even threatened to do so has been nerfed into oblivion.

(Idly, regarding VoR - I don't think that was nerfed due to secondary abuse. The nerf actually, to my eye, would encourage secondary abuse if the prime candidates for such abuse didn't have better options for elites, since it makes it most powerful on a bar that isn't throwing Mesmer hexes or interrupts. By my understanding, it was nerfed because it was proving overly powerful in PvP, and it seems that they figured that since it was used in CoP builds as well, they might as well not split it because that would weaken CoP also.)

Lyssas Aura with Wandering Eye / Clumsiness spam is also good for PVE.

Other than that and VoR, I dont use much else on my PVE mes.

A few ideas (PVE only)-

Energy surge + energy burn reduced to 10s recharge.

Shatter Ench - reduced to 5e and 10 recharge.

Shatter Hex - reduce to 10e

Bring back the old ench conundrum / shatter delusion spike for PVE (114ish damage when ench conundrum ends).

Wastrels Worry - hex spell deals 75 damage when it ends (remove premature ending, make it last and rechage in 5s).

Wastrels Demise - 33 damage and -3 degen on target foe, 5s recharge, AoE if foe was casting a spell.

Overload - bonus damage to work on any skill.

Sig of clumsiness - 5s recharge.

Accumulated pain - increase damage to 50ish, reduce recharge to 10s.

Psychic Instabilty - make the interupt and KD AoE.

Hrrmn. Your proposed changes to the Wastrel's skills seem to be missing the "wastrel" part.

WW I think I'm happy to leave as is, or just increase the damage further. It's supposed to be a gamble.

Wastrel's Demise shouldn't be getting a bonus when used when the target is doing something. A better conditional would be to make it have the area of effect if the target isn't using a skill - or just make it area of effect in general, but only have the (full) effect on targets who aren't using skills.

Honestly, the only thing I can think of that Mesmers currently do better than anyone else is sin summon spam.

Unfortunately, the game is currently just not set up for mesmers to be worthwhile.

Either:

A) Monsters need to start reacting to mesmer hexes

or

B) Mesmer hexes in PvE need to start flat-out preventing enemies from doing certain things, instead of discouraging them (empathy preventing one from attacking instead of dealing damage on attack, etc).

The problem with A is that it would take far too much work. We might as well ask Anet to randomize all the mobs. It would be nice, but it's just not going to happen.

The problems with B are that monsters use those skills too (could you imagine if Backfire prevented spells from being cast, and a monster cast it on your monk?). Ironically enough, this would also be sort of a good thing in a way, because it would encourage more balanced groups (since more people would have to pack hex removal) as well as more coordination (since the monk wouldn't be able to remove the backfire himself, but would have to rely on other players to do it). Still, this is an unrealistic scenario. The playerbase would never go for it, most players would never be able to adapt to it, and as a result Anet simply won't do it.

Of course, all this dances around the additional problem of mesmer hexes generally being single-target. The ability to shut down a single opponent is just not that desirable in PvE.

tl;dr: Mesmers might as well just try to be happy with AE+AP+EVAS, because the changes that would be necessary to make them viable in PvE just aren't likely to happen. It sucks, but it doesn't really look like there's much that can be done.

I didnt really know what wastrel meant tbh, so on Wastrels demise, make it aoe if the foe is not using any skills.

For wastrels worry, maybe just reduce the trigger duration to 2s then.

Just small buffs to improve the skills for PVE.

I found another decent build to currently use in PVE, that being tease / cof / cop / confusing images / wandering eye / clumsiness. Same as what I currenty use with lyssas, but I just dont have tease and VoR capped yet. I like synergising with Lo Sha in EOTN very much, though on my Elly I would use Lo Sha + Zho for the same effect.

Also, maybe make confusing images last 5 seconds longer, or recharge in 15s too, it is really handy in HM as it reduces AI skill activation times back to normal. Oh, and a 10s recharge on mistrust too would be great.

Because of Natural Resistance all hexes only are half as potent if its DoT.

idea brutally stolen from draxynnic: make Cry of Frustration a shout. same with Tease.

I would have thought that the obvious first step to making Mesmers more desirable in PvE would be to reduce the recharge on most of their spells like E-Surge and E-Burn. That way they can actually use the skills from their own profession instead of relying on secondaries/PvE skills for gimmicks that aren't even all that effective.

Afaik the degen from CoP does not count as a hex and therefor the duration isn't reduced by Natural Resistance.

Cry of Pain is a spell, not a hex. Therefore it still works rather well with VoR. I have a beautiful PvE VoR build that is based on using vor+cop with a couple fallback hexes/spells etc.
It's still quite easy IMO, to have a quite viable PvE VoR build that will contribute to the party.

...requiring a lot more ingame knowledge and paying off in a 1/3 of the effect of monk, imbagon, splinter barrager, tank or anyone else's usefulness.

Yes, most of the time yes. I was merely saying that with a little adjustment it still pretty-much works.. :P

TBH though, one of the things that I always liked about the mesmer, kinda like playing a wiz or sorc in Neverwinter Nights, was that they do require more in-game knowledge to use.
I suppose with GW's pick up and play game style, this can be counter-productive, and yes, I'm all for seeing my beloved class get a decent buff to bring them more into line with the sort of dps I used to see before they removed the ability to stack VoR with other useful hexes.

Anyone remember VoR+Empathy+Backfire+Wastrels with a touch of CoP? The numbers! The beautiful, constant stream of numbers as the foes fell away in droves..That one spell combo demonstrates exactly what my idea of the Mesmer is and always should be. A class that can hurt you for merely existing at them. Not to forget the class that provides the laughs.

"Stop hitting yourself!" "Stop hitting yourself!!"

Lawl.

What have they given us, since they took the majority of our power away in that dual-hit smash?(CoP+VoR nerf)As far as I can see, nothing. Just a bigger dunces hat, and the ability to warm the benches even better than we already were, being, as I said, a class that does take a little extra work and knowledge.

All-in-all, roll it on in. If aNet could approach this like a mesmer, perhaps they might understand their own class more, and fix it in a manner pleasing to all, most especially lovers of the class.

I think that comment was directed at the change you suggested for Wastrel's Demise, which made it an AoE effect if the target was using a skill. That's kind of out of the "theme" of the Wastrel's skills, which is to punish the target more if they aren't using a skill.

On Wastrel's Worry, I wouldn't mind seeing it drop to 2s, but I would rather see:

(a) Partial damage based on how long the hex was active on the target.
(b) Only able to cancel the hex using spells and not any 0 second shout or chant or attack skill. Sure, this might be marginally unfair to monsters that don't carry spells at all - But seriously, ~100dmg every 3 seconds is not exactly screaming out nerf to me.

How about making Wastrels worry a direct opposite to overload?

Target foe takes 40 damage. If not using a skill, that foe takes an additional 50 damage (15 Dom numbers I think).

Overload - Target foe takes 40 damage. Deals 50 more damage to foes activating a skill.

The current expiration timer hinders its usefulness.

And for Wastrels Demise - Target foe takes 11...44 damage and suffers from -1...-4 health degeneration for 8 seconds. Also affects nearby enemies if that foe was not activating a skill.
The idea here is to create a powerful line of 5e spells, then just reduce the lot of the 20s recharge damage spells between domination and illusion to 10 seconds. The 20s+ recharge on spells like Energy Burn, Energy Surge, Mistrust, Shatter Ench and Accumulated Pain are the main limiting factor to mesmers, when instead they can just go /E or /Mo and run arcane echo SH + Breath of Fire, or RoJ with Snowstorm, which is kind of like what I started doing :x. But Ive finished grinding my elite armor set on my mesmer now, so dont think I'll be playing her ever again.

This whole premise is loltastic.

Mesmers were built from the ground up to be amazing at PvP. If you buff them in PvE (w/o a skill split), then they'll become unbalanced. Anyone remember VoR? You should because it still rapes.

Leave mesmers alone. They can still use Assassin's Promise and PvE skills just like every other caster, which combined with FC makes them OP enough.

if you read the whole topic, you'd notice i pointed that pvp/pve split is necessary.

^But that's the main problem with the mesmer, you see. The problem is that their skills are so bad or have such long recharge (compared to what other classes can offer) that they have to rely on PvE skills and gimmicks like AP to even able to contribute. In all honesty, they don't really NEED a buff to their skills, just reduced recharges on many of their more useful skills should be sufficient.

The reduced recharge on 20s+ skills and reduced cost on some 15e skills would be more than fine to fix mesmers for PVE.

Anyone who reads this thread and thinks of imbalanced PVP must have completely missed the point that we only want PVE changes with a skill split between PVP and PVE.

I'm just waiting for somebody to post for Cry of Pain to revert to it's previous effect. I sense that is what the thread is originally intended for.

What makes you say that? Reading the whole thread and the first post leads me and others to think otherwise.

Making interrupts a shout would mean other professions would use them more...since nobody apparently likes mesmers.

Honestly, that wouldn't really help much, for the same reason that it was nerfed; other classes use it just as well. It wasn't that Mesmers were useful before the CoP nerf, it was that Mesmer secondaries were useful and Mesmer primaries were an inferior version despite people not realizing it.

Now, if CoP were reverted and it's cast time was increased to a stupidly high amount so only Mesmers could effectively use it (or it was otherwise tied to fc) then there might be something. Still, I'm doubtful.

Cant really have interrupts with a long cast time. CoF is fine as it is, except again a shorter recharge would help. Reducing CoF, CoP and Tease down to 10s recharges would seriously boost the desirability of interrupt mesmers in PVE.

Simply boosting instant interrupts won't help much due to the difficulty of getting them to land on a HM enemy after latency and human response times are taken into account.

Well theres an option , you can make some interrupts non instant , like Diversion but with the "interrupt + something" effect instead.
Ofc it will be like giving a gun in a sword fight but bleh , there are many things you can do to balance PvE mes in a split ..... in fact so many that i bet they dont know where to start.

PS: Recharges and energy req are my bet too .

Buff please.

Better skills, you say?

-Change all energy loss spells so they actually have an impact.

-Make interrupts feasible. The Shame/Guilt idea was a good one.

-Cut down on the recharges of hex removal and support skills.

-Attach an AoE effect to Mantras to let them buff the party. It could have a short range and a more limited effect, but this would do wonders for any mesmer looking for a group.

I have a fast cast mesmer with my ele. It's called mindbender+red rock candy.

Obviously, a profession based on strategy won't work in PvE. I mean, neither do Water Magic eles. Why would you want to snare things when you can blow them up? Mesmers aren't bad, PvE is.

Put cry of pain to fast casting and revert it. (Stops the Cry of Pain abuse on other classes)
Put signet of illusions to fast casting, and make it the next 3,4,5,6,7 skills not spells. (Would be able to make a non-gimmick builds that can be of use to a team if the primary isn't available, as well as other fun builds)
Put arcane mimicry to fast casting, and have the elite copied use the fast cast attribute.
Have fast casting decrease skill recharge of spells.
Give inspiration skills some aoe use to other party members (eg channeling), or have mantras, enchants etc be able to be cast on others.
Give decreased skill recharge on energy management skills.

Just some ideas

Here goes:

Mesmer love is simple. Three main PvE changes:

1) Do great mesmer only damage:

• Aneurysm - Increase damage to 0..10, max 150
• Mind Wrack - Hexes adjacent foes, also triggers damage if a foe is interrupted while using a skill.
• Price of Pride - Also causes 30..120 damage.
• Visions of Regret - Lower recharge to 10, revert to old functionality.

2) Strong team buffs via inspiration:

• Energy Tap / Drain - Gives up to 0..4 allies in earshot energy equal to 10..50% of that stolen.
• Channeling - Also, if you interrupt a foe's skill with a Mesmer spell, all allies in earshot gain 0..8 energy.
• Lyssa's Aura - Also, spells for allies in earshot cost 5..15% less energy.

3) Some fast-cast buffs

• Arcane Languor - Also causes dazed for 1..6 seconds whenever target foe casts a spell.
• Stolen Speed - Changed to 1/4 cast. Interrupt target foe. If you interrupt a spell, that foe casts spells 100..300% longer for 5..20 seconds.

And this is why buffing them into a Fire Ele is the only thing that would make people happy.

1234 /faceroll is the only play style people in PvE seem to want anymore.

What made me laugh @ the VoR+CoP nerf was that:

- Those nerfs were introduced at the same time the Spirit Spammer was buffed to absurdity. "SoS is the only viable solution for Rits to be accepted in teams". Well, so were VoR and CoP to Mesmers...

- They took a overly complicated route of nerfing things. There was really no need to rework the functionality of those skills IMO. If anything, watering them down a bit and preventing abuses in a reasonable way would have worked better.

CoP could have been toned down - reverting recharge to its pre-buff state and having CoP dealing damage only while the target was under the effect of YOUR Mesmer hexes - and maybe tied to FC, while VoR could have been as well toned down a bit - increasing energy cost to 15? increasing its recharge time? reducing damage? reducing AoE range? - and split for PvP.

Stacking hexes isn't cheap nor cost-effective, expecially for a profession who needs to plan its energy management carefully, so I really don't see a problem with VoR stacking with Backfire in PvE... PvP is another matter, but, well, that's what the PvE/PvP split was conceived for, wasn't it?

Now VoR makes functionally little sense to me, since its current behaviour antisynergizes with most of the Mesmer skills: there are very few options for direct damage available to Mesmers (Energy Burn? Overload?), so either you stack hexes or interrupt skills (or drain energy from your target, which is pointless in PvE). Both solutions harm VoR tough.

I know reactive hexing isn't a smart way of playing, but choice wasn't really that broad for Mesmers, and it really isn't any more now.

Why would you be attempting to deal damage as an elementalist? Elemental damage is shit, particularly in Hard Mode, whereas snaring is actually pretty handy. So yes, if I had an ele in my party and he wasn't running ER prot/infuse, I'd want him running Water Magic snares. That helps keep the enemies away from the backline so the assassins and warriors can run in and kill them quickly with minimum hassle.