Why do we hate grind, but accept farming?

There's a certain paradox concerning the loot system, player behavior, and the GW economy. We say we hate grind; doing the same thing over and over, completing the same objectives time and time again, repeating the same missions......but when something happens that shakes up farming, people rage. They want their farming routines, they want their stable economy sources, they want to be able to use certain builds to run routes for the exact same rewards in the exact same way.

Are we content with the way things are?

People tend to follow the path of least resistance when going after what they want, and this is quite logical and practical. In the context of the game, this means farming; the drops in the area in question tend to be the same, the monsters don't change, so get the perfect build and have at it until you get what you are looking for. The result is grind.

Apparently, according to rants and complaints and commentary, we don't like grind, even when we create it for ourselves. So, what can be done?

If we want to avoid grind, it isn't enough to change a few skills, or adjust a few drop rates, or change a monster or three. We need to talk about the basic incentives and mechanisms of obtaining what we want in this game.


So. Skill and Time.


We here this a lot, in regards to pretty much everything in the game. In many cases, it is fulfilled within the game; a skillbar is the same as the next, but how you use it differs, armor and weaponry are the same, but your tactics will change. There is, however, a problem.

Loot is Time based.

Because of the random factor, loot is essentially based on how much time you spend farming something, waiting to get lucky. Want a particular sword? Go to the area it drops, and farm. Repeat. Eventually, you might, keyword might, get the sword. If it DOES drop, it doesn't mean you did any better than anyone else after the sword, it just means you were lucky, or spent enough time there to get lucky.

Yet on the same note, if there are defined paths to a sword (slay monster X, bring item Y to location Z, then hold for five minutes while facing mob A to protect NPC B), people can repeat THOSE steps as much as they wish to get what they want in the same manner.

Therefore, Riverside, I have a question. How would you make the loot system better?

Should it be competitive, similar to Challenge Missions, rewarding better loot to more skilled players?
Should it be long-distance questing like the Black Moa Chick, requiring vast travel to assemble a final product?
Should it be single-use quest based like Kerrsh's Staff, with a specific reward for a specific quest?
Should it be incrementally assembled, like Destroyer Gloves, built from random rewards that are obtainable in a wide variety of locations and acquired through normal gameplay?
Should it be based on a set of specific challenges, like Mission Books?
Should everything be obtainable via trader, with prices determined by the community?
Should it be a healthy mixture of all these things, with no specific emphasis?
Or are you happy with the way things are now, or have a different idea?

How would you make the loot system better, both for the individual and for the economy as a whole?


TL;DR version: we all talk about grind being bad, but we love farming. Is there a better way, then, to have people strive for the loot they want that emphasizes skill rather than time spent?

Grind == Farm.

Farm == Grind.

Superfluous...

Most people say they want rewards as easily/efficiently as possible. Generally this means some or another grind is the best way to achieve the reward. They whine because they want the reward badly and but must put up with grind to get there quickly. No one would whine about grind if they didn't feel stuck doing it.

The farming shakeups everyone whines about are when the rewards become ever so slightly harder to obtain. Some nerfs hit, people need to spend time relearning/mastering new builds, and in the end the new adjustments are slightly to significantly slower. You don't see as many complaints when some new busted skill makes better farming possible, as when a nerf happens.

The bottom line is that rewarding the most skilled players, even if possible in PvE, is largely self-defeating. Most of your playerbase isn't skilled and yet you still want them to play. This is the truth I think GW2 will be modeled on.

I'm with Coney here.

Either define your "we" or leave me out of it.

I've always favored an unlock system where accomplishments unlock items, and you pay a nominal (gold) fee to spawn it on any character once you unlock the item on your account. Rare skins are given for completing content shorthanded, quickly, or what have you. Then make all of these items impossible to trade.

This does several nice things. If you make the tasks hard enough, you can eliminate running (even as a barter system of "I run X and you run Y") for rare skins. You eliminate gold selling entirely. You create a new secondary market for players to actually play the accounts of others for RL cash, but anyone should see that's a lot riskier than paying a gold seller.

It also disincentivizes power creep, because you have to make pay artists to make new rare skins if everything becomes common as a result of some new OP build.

It'll never happen, because the system eradicates the need for a virtual economy. ANet wants to sell games to power traders, too.

The hypothetical we, no accusations or forced inclusions implied.

Some Farm because they like to and want in-game wealth.

Some farm because they have to, its not their fault it's the flaw in the random drops and loot scaling. Data was collected a long time ago showing the flaws in HM in a all human party and H/H vs. solo. Even though people hate to grind farm it has its purpose you need gold to buy things.

Where grinding title have serve no purpose other then to stroke bad players ego in to thinking they are the best in the game.

Because not all actions are a grind. Farming is not a necessity and those that do it usually find it fun and/or easy thus not really a grind for many, whereas grinding a title to get something for GW2 is a grind. Farming is not required for GW2 because money and/or loot is not going to transfer to GW2 whereas titles or something of value for those titles will.

Another thing to consider without grind really this game would be dead because of lack of new content. Let's face it everybody by now has a 15^50 weapon and all the max runes they need so there's really nothing to play for except stupid childish vanity items. Stupid Mini pets who cares pashaw. So it's either wealth or fame that keeps most of the ones that are left playing. I guess anything after a certain point can be considered grind when there's really nothing of value to play for. So I always relate grind to when the game becomes boring and of no real value other than just killing time.

Also something that is easy and/or fun to do even if repetitive does not feel like a grind. Grind usually defines as something repetitive and boring that is REQUIRED to gain something of value or future value at a cost of much TIME and not much skill as can be related to SF and 600 smite builds. There is no skill to them and they reduce TIME for some things that are considered a grind.

I on the one hand DO NOT LOVE farming. I'd rather have unlimited new content than have to repeat one part of any part of the game over again. I will only farm to get an item (green item usually) that I can't seem to find any players selling. I will only farm resources for the Traveler because each week it's something new and I will farm Z-Keys because each day there's some new old place to go and it doesn't feel repetitive althought it is at old places in the game. Mostly I'll play the Z-Keys Zashien PVP areas like Random Arena, Fort Aspenwood and Jade Quarry and Alliance Battles. Even though the zones are repetitive (I do wish they would change victory conditions in them) usually I get to play against new players and that is more fun than playing against the same stupid AI and doesn't feel like a grind.

But, in GW unlike most other MMOrpgs you aren't really required to grind you do so by choice not a requirement as you can do/finish the entire game chapters without grinding anything other than level 20. You don't need to fill Hall of Monuments to finish any chapter, you don't need torment or destroyer weapons to complete the games/chapters. You don't need a single title to complete the game although you do need a certain amount of Sunspear levels to get out of noobland of Nightfall so that might be the only required grind I know of. Other MMOrpgs you pretty much are required to grind Each level hours and hours, then you have to grind resources and or cash if you want to BUY necessary upgrades to compete at higher level difficulties.

So once again in GW there is only grind if you choose to grind for silly stuff as nothing is required short of Sunspear basic grind to get off newbie island and that is so easy a caveman can do it. )

Here's an idea! make dungeons shorter so we don't have to resort to lame farming or running builds to do them! Keep it to a 30 min marker and we'll see a halfway decent economy! Since everything will then be on the same price point instead of one area being farmed for hours and dropping in value we'll see even prices!

through pvp characters, 1.5k armor, and collectors, we don't need to grind/farm one single goddamn thing.

but most of us want to look pretty so we do, knowing as far as playing the game goes doesn't change.

Farming and grind both get you some level of reward in either items, skills, etc.

I consider farming grind because it generally forces me to use builds that I generally don't enjoy and has me play by myself. Basically grind.

When I farm, I think "I want X, so I need to do Y, probably many times..." It's my choice, since it's my goal. It's more voluntary, even though it still may not be interesting and entertaining. There is a reward for me at the end.

Grind, on the other hand, is thrust upon me, and not something that I set out to do. "I have to get Norn Rank to to get into Ursan groups, so I have to grind reputation points..." (OK, old example, but still valid.) Someone told me that I need rank 10, or I can't get into groups. It wasn't my choice. I get no reward...

Seems like a simple equation to me. Fundamentally, was it my choice? Yes = fun, no = grind.

Another lame worthless complaining thread. Gezzzzzzzzzz, if people are so damn unhappy with GW or any other MMO for that matter quit. LOL, plain and simple.

I am supprised that Guru puts up with these sort of things. Complaints.

I feel sorry for guru and anet.

I have an idea, lets make a mmo called Complaints and bitching hack and slash.

Have classes such as, complainers, whinners, bitchers, overpowerd so nerf me, etc.

this right here, also farming can be nice enough ( only really do it at easter but still). where as I consider grind need a sunspear rank of X to continue campaign or needing certain norn rank X for armor etc.

Agreed, no *we* ASS-ump-tions...

We think we hate grind.

I just farm a bit, sell everything that drops and add more plat to my storage and shit like that...

This post is hilarious, because out of this whole thread, this seems the most like whining and bitching.

He's complaining about how people complain way too much about GW. Quite frankly, I don't blame him and I agree with him.

Seeing as how only the dedicated players of a given game will visit a forum, register and post, its not hard to see why a good amount of people on this forum complain about the game, and even more who try to offer constructive criticism, which of course is blasted by trolls.

As to the OP, Grind is not the same as Farming. Farming is an "alternative gamestyle" if you prefer, whereas in lieu of pursuing content, a player repeats areas by choice for coveted items or other drops and such.

Grind is that which is imposed on the player and gives him or her no choice, such as at one point having to grind Sunspear points to advance the storyline. It could also be argued that once content has been completed once (i.e. completing the EoTN campaign), anything afterwards is grind, if it requires the player to re-play a given area just to be able to play further areas, famously the r10 Norn title for Ursan runs.

Farming can be fun and enjoyable, seeing a rare drop gives many a sense of accomplishment. Grind on the other hand is repetition for its own sake, and is no substitute for randomized or new content. I would say that one of the reasons games like Diablo 2 can still be fun is because enemies and areas are randomized, such that a player never quite knows what he or she will face, hence these areas are quite replayable to a point.

I completely agree with Kaleban. Players don't complain as much about farming because it was their choice to do it and complaining about your own decisions is pretty pointless.

Of course that brings in the fact that grinding is technically one's decision from deciding to play the game, but that's pretty much all RPGs anyway so I just defeated my own point.

This.

The only real reason why ANY of us farm is for financial reasons one way or another. Wether it be farming for making gold via the merchant; farming a rare item to try and hit the lottery, or even farming a single green item just so you do not have to buy it from another player. The only exclusion to this would be traveller gifts or holiday items, but there are still many players who farm these items to make money as well.

But If you think about it, we are all doing it to ourselves. The reason you need to farm for financial reasons is because we all charge each other so darn much for everything. There are no laws that say what prices are for items, the player base creates these numbers, thus creating money shortfalls that we have to go out of our way to compensate for. Some people will surely try and cite supply & demand as a reason for high prices, but there's nothing that says the supplier has to DEMAND such outrageous prices that no player can aquire said item through normal means.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~

Personally I am a fan of the npc dispensing item's based on achievement's such as the end game greens and the BMP; but I understand the need for an economy in games like these as it allows players to interact and having an active market gives the game a much more worldly feel. I just think that it would be a good thing to see the open player market limited more to things that every player needs and exclude as much vanity as possible. Items such as runes, tomes, weapon mods; etc. would all endorse healthy trading so long as none of these items were to become super rare.

Simply put,
Grind is repetitive action required to progress or be on equal standing with another player in the game.

Example: Having to progress a title so PvE-only skills have higher benefits (which is often a group req as well), high level caps depending on progression rate, etc...

Farming is working towards a personal goal or for a "prestige" item, and thus chosen. Farming IS OFTEN grind depending on if the player farms the same area/method. The distinction is that farming can be chosen whereas grind within the game is faced by all players who simply play through the game. And thankfully in the GW universe (which is my standard), those that farm for and obtain a prestige item are at no statistic advantage from those who choose not to.

Example: FoW armor, tormented weps, etc...

EDIT:
Completely my opinion.

Its human nature to want the best you can get and that applies to gaming as much as the real world.
I try to avoid grind but accept it at times to get something I want.

I would like to get my Sunspear rank to max, I would also like to have achieved that before I finished the game.
To me it made sense to maximise my skills to beat the major threat before facing the threat.

Sadly GW doesn't work that way, you have to win then play the game again in hard mode to achieve the objective that you now no longer need.
I suspect the vast majority of grind is just to see what we will all gain when we get to play gw2, I also suspect that a lot of us will be disappointed.

We are all grinding our way through masses of weapons armour pets titles and skills just so we will have something extra in gw2 that someone new will not have.
Common sense says what we will gain will not be earth shattering but then common sense and endless grind are incompatable anyway.

I don't want to ruin your dreams but unless you work here:
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7515432&page=1
making money is kind a grind. Guess what, even in gw.

Grind you're just going for exp, which gets boring really really fast since it holds no immediate prestige(i.e. you go from lv 38 to 39, you don't feel much better). But with farming, you either trying to get cash fast or for a specific item, in both cases you got a stronger urge to do it(10k gold in 10 min, you would want to keep on doing that over and over), since in both cases, you can get the items that you want. And in the latter cases, it's common in mmo where the only way to get that specific item IS to grind some class of monster for it, so you're left with no choice but to do it.

Couldn't have said it better myself, so I'll just quote Kaleban one more time. I have to stress GW has little to no grind. The 10k Kurzick or Luxon and the SS points are the only two that come to mind, and those are easily collected doing some quests or killing with bounties.

Even getting the r10 Norn for Ursan runs isn't grind, because you are very well able to do a run with r4 Norn or even without Norn rank, or even without Norn skills.
I don't need a PvE title to be able to get in a group and clear Slaver's Exile. By my standards, that isn't grind.
Those titles won't make you better in GW2. People without those titles are as capable as you in defeating Zhaitan. I'd say HoM =/= grind.

-----

All of this is my opinion of course. People beg to differ about the definition of grind. However, the word gets used a bit too much to complain about Anet nerfing farmbuilds and such, imho.

I farm cause I like too, and the uw is easy to farm. It's going to get lonely in toa soon without all the sins and 600's lol.

I also grind titles because the game is boring to me, after 5 yrs titles give this old busted game a new purpose for me and others that started back in the day. Some do it for the potential unlocks in GW2. Some may do it for showing off but regardless ppl do titles for many reasons, so shuush you narrow minded pawn.

Just because grind is easy doesn't mean it's not grind. Aion, for instance, is extremely easy to level up... but it's a LONG, and BORING leveling up. Which is even more funny when people say that there are easier games. Aion is easy, GW in PvE is easy, grind can be easy, but it won't be better thanks to this.

^This.

I'm currently solo farming for an armor in Titan Quest (Diablo clone) with my Pew Pew hunter. The armor is rare and has 4 pieces and I still need 2 of them. Farming the same 2 bosses for weeks now and when a piece drops it's a great feeling, a feeling I haven't had in GW for a long time. At the same time other special gear drops too, so it keeps things interesting till the parts I need drop. I can download some kind of vault which has all the items if I want, but if I would do that, it would take away the fun of the call of the hunt.

It's like opening boosters from Magic the Gathering in the old days, there's always a chance that rare card comes out of it.

Farming is like fishing, you get an adrenaline boost when there's something on the hook. Lots of fun for me and my gaming buddies.

The process of getting better, more effcient in the farm run is also fun.

To the OP: I don't need to accept farming, I need to accept an RPG game without farming, which usually ends on the shelf when I finished the story line. Versus when I play PvP games like Starcraft, Warcraft3 etc who have their endgame content in the form of PvP, ladder ranking etc and where the individual glory comes first, not like in GW's PvP where team glory comes first.

Great idea...have always supported it. As long as the achievements aren't retarded like titles (oh yay, spend 6 million gold on candy then sit and click for 8 hours, you're so skilled).

A game shouldn't be based off of the lowest common denominator. If terrible players like yourself could finish dungeons in 30 minutes, skilled players could finish them in 10-15. Would just be a complete waste of programming time and seriously disappointing to anyone who can play a video game with more competency than a bowl of pudding.

So basically...farming is grind...but with a reward that you, Kaleban, finds appropriate?

if some find farming enjoyable for the sake of farming, then let them go at it.

however, i find farming purely for monetary gains in this game to be utterly dumb. money buys absolute squat in this game. until money can buy me equipment/skills that's actually statistically better than the ones i have now, i see no reason why anyone would actively try to farm it. there's a case to be made if someone wants to buy something that they can't afford, then farming is appropriate. i see no reason why anyone would farm just to see their gold collection pile up. after all, it's entirely worthless.

I've known people who had never finished a campaign, but had farmed 2 million gold that they just stockpiled...

They claimed it was so that they would "be ready" when the decided to finish the game.

Nicholas items = Grind (if u think Anet dont want farmers...why implement this guy)

SoOSC/UWSC/FOWSC = farming enjoyment/accomplishment

This, right here, is quite wise.

Would it be fair to say, then, that both sides, grind and farming, could be improved by the use of variation and impetus?

The former is simple, eliminating the requirement to grind, so that players can choose to do so rather than be forced.

Would the latter be improved if there were multiple means of acquiring any given bit of prestige? Faction titles can be improved by slaying, vanquishing, questing, or books, providing multiple means to a single end that prevent the player from having to endlessly repeat a single action. Getting Sweet Tooth has plenty of routes, from Nicholas to merchants to festivals.

What if many of the commodities people seek were available from multiple locations and through different means? If a rare weapon could be a drop, a crafted item with hefty requirements/scavenger hunt across the maps, or a challenge mission reward every month, etc. Or if the areas in which these rare things drop were randomized, facing different monsters with different skillbars? While people might go for the swiftest and simplest means to an end, it would still provide variety which, as they say, is the spice of life.

Not necesarily. While you can lock up any meninagfull reward, you do not have to lockdown everything.

There is always potential in leaving "utility" ecomony in player hands. Consumable items will always be in demand and hence market will always exist. As long as they are not "use this 10000 and get title" or "use this and win", motivation to buy gold to get em is going to be minimal.

People really don't know what they want in a video game. They may think they know, but they don't. They will go as far as to tell and scream about what they think they want, when it isn't what they really want.

first off,
no grind is necessary in gw. at all. period.

you grind for flashy armor/expensive weapons to make your character look better
but they are by no means necessary

so all grind is by choice

Farming in GW is entirely optional, you don't need to farm anything. It's not a grind unless you want to make it a grind.